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Author Topic: The truth about OOBES and what they really are.  (Read 29856 times)
beavis
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« Reply #100 on: May 24, 2004, 01:35:59 »

Sctt: the spirit realm is when we die when we go to heaven or hell. This other place is just a more of a controlled dream. I hope not to hurt any ones feelings here but can any one reallly prove that the dream is our spirit realm that we just lose awareness in??

Things can be seen in obe in the real physical world that were not known before. That proves its real.
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T.L.
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« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2004, 05:30:11 »

Scott I and a few others here are also members of as also. Let me clarify what you said about being asleep while projecting. If hooked up to an eeg machine and observed by a scientist/technician they would conclude that the projector was asleep in the non-rem non-dreaming sleep state, as where under the same circumstances dreaming it would identify us as being in the rem state, dreaming sleep state. If you project your physical body will feel refreshed just like when you sleep, same as the mind. If you have a lucid dream or many that night you will feel physically refreshed, same as the mind.

So if you indeed had a lucid dream you wouldnt know you werent projecting just by how you feel once you come out of it. I pointed to facts you could verify earlier with the alex tanous trials under scientific scrutiny and lab environments. Whether you want to look further into it or not is up to you, whether you do or not (and I believe I am speaking for the majority of this forum) do not care what you decide to do.

Im not mad at your opinions or anyone elses, everyone is entitled to have one about all subjects. But just dont say you can state for a fact they are not real, because its not a fact, its an opinion.

To weet: I didnt mean you cant gain insight to who you are exactly, you can gain insight but its in fragments and the whole isnt remembered till one physically dies and comes to terms with that. I know this for myself from my own experience and memories. Dont take my word for it though you will know when the time is right, and once you die physically. Every one has opinions, just please try to keep it on good terms, and everyone will appreciate you all the more for that. I am glad though I see people not blindly believing until they prove it to themselves, its good to be a skeptic. A skeptic keeps an open mind until he experiences and comes to a conclusion, he is not swayed or holds pre-conceived notions that something is false before looking into it.

Take care. I wish everyone luck with what they want to do. Also I wanted to know how to go about sending an article I wrote to the admin of the site to see if he/she thinks it would make a good addition to this site. I am not sure if they post articles. If anyone is interested it is about wake initiated lucid dreams and projection from non rem sleep with consciousness intact. Well once again good luck to everyone in what they decide to believe and do.
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« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2004, 05:30:11 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2004, 12:49:26 »

Scott, I agree that OBE's and dreams feel similar. I haven't been able to tell a difference and have a really hard time distinguishing the two unless it's self initiated. But I don't see what the big deal is. You can no sooner prove that they are both dreams than you can proove they're something more. Least you can't with a closed mind. But you've made your point. There's no reason to be rude about the matter. And that crack at Robert was completely uncalled for and unappreciated.[Sad!] If that other forum is so much better, then go back to it and stay.
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« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2004, 14:45:11 »

quote:
Ok i just had a oobe and to tell you the truth it felt more like a realm of sleep because when i woke up i was refreshed and ready to start my day same as dreaming.

No s***!? Normally when you project your body is asleep. That proved nothing.
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mactombs
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« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2004, 16:26:41 »

Ah, such an interesting topic, but so poorly argued by Scott (I mean, calling OBEs just dreams, and then simply assuming heaven and hell exist?) Anyway, hopefully I can add a little to this topic (and without becoming childish and calling you all cultists).

Here's a reader's comment sent to James Randi's (magician and skeptic) site:

quote:
I'm not sure if you know much about the bizarre and rare sleep disorder of ASP (Aware Sleep Paralysis). I myself suffer from the disorder and for most of my life attributed the symptoms to supernatural phenomena. It can briefly be described as a state of complete lucidity during unconsciousness. Parts of the brain move towards unconsciousness while others lag behind, creating a strange state between the two. Paralysis is one of the symptoms, a natural state which we all enter into when we sleep so as to protect the body from injuring itself while dreaming. During ASP, you are simply still awake when the brain begins to shut down the body. Needless to say, it's a terrifying experience.

Other symptoms include auditory and visual hallucinations. As the logical brain falls asleep, your mind is given free reign to explore itself, that is, you begin to dream while still conscious. My youth was plagued with "supernatural events", strange beings walking around my bedroom, voices talking to me in the night. The knowledge that I was still awake led me to one conclusion — ghosts.

When entering the state, one often hears and feels a strange kind of buzzing. Interestingly, practitioners of deep "higher level" meditation describe a similar vibration experience. Could it be that they are simply inducing a type of ASP?

It has been suggested that falling asleep with your eyes open may induce ASP in many people. The brain gets mixed cues and the process becomes muddled. Practitioners of "astral traveling" are known to use a technique where they stare at a point on the wall, for many hours, until consciousness begins to slip. Sounds familiar.

There is very little information on this disorder, and all the doctors I've met have never heard of it. If it was not for the internet I would probably have personally sponsored the holiday homes of a few different exorcists and priests.


Now here's someone who has apparently experienced an OBE and yet is able to call it a side effect of the brain, no mysticism needed. Hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations are another way of explaining OBEs as interesting albeit utterly non-mystic phenomena.

Here's the kicker though: OBEs are entirely subjective. It's true, you can't prove an OBE is just a dream or a hallucination (science doesn't even understand what a dream is fully, and doesn't even begin to understand conciousness / individuality). You can say a dream / hallucination is the most probable explanation.

Likewise, you can't prove to others that an OBE is real, either. But isn't that the value of spirituality? Other people don't need proof, only you do.

My guess is Scott got frustrated with OBEs, he had no personal verification, so he went to demanding others for proof of something that can only be proved to the one experiencing it. This being impossible, it turned to venting frustration on posters. Sad, because an honest debate about the nature of OBEs (mystical vs. hallucination) would have been far more beneficial for everyone.
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« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2004, 16:26:41 »



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Kazbadan
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« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2004, 17:36:15 »

Mactombs:I agree with you, but i must something more: in order to observe reality, we cannot accept mystical theories. We must use the scientific method, if possible, if we want to study paranormal phenomenons. So, we basic law is this: the people that says that something is true (obes in this case) are the ones that must to proof it; not the opposite.

If i say that i have cloned Jesus; i f say that i have a gree living cow, with 13 legs; if i say that i am an alien and had come from Vega, etc, etc, iam the one that must proof such things. It would be ridiculous if the non-believers were the one that must to proof it.

Of coarse that obes are a little different: many people is convinced that they are real because they experience something. So, if they say something plausible, at least the scientists could do something to observe the phenomenon.

My opinion is that obes are not real (by real i mean: really getting out of the body), only subjective episodes, they are another sate of the sleeping mind. People, while obing cannot really proof to thereselfs with conclusive tests (card testes with 90% of sucess, etc) the "true" nature of obes. Why? There is that excuse of the reading impossibility, while obing, but that it will only show the dream nature of obes. If there are som many obers in the world, if there are many people interested on prooving it, why do i neever saw any proof?
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« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2004, 17:53:10 »

so is sctt gone i hope so he was getting annoying if he is banned thanks
[Smiley][Cheesy][8D]
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« Reply #107 on: May 24, 2004, 18:12:00 »

I didnt read all the posts in this thread (too big), only some of them, but i think that it is unfair to banne it only because of something he believes (about dream and obes). He said something too, related to R.Bruce he is a fruit.

I know what a fruit is, but i sont know if, in this case, it is any bad expression on your language. If not, i think that it is not correct to bane it, besides that, you cannot say that he is being incorrect with other people in the forum (well, exception to R.Bruce): since the begining that some people seems to be "chasing" him just because he said that dreams=obes.

I think that all of us can have a good discussion on this topic without any agression. Letīs start to talk on it with an open spirit.

Just some more things: dont be surprised if you see opposite opinions coming from myself. Sometimes i dont believe on obes (when i use my rational spirit) but sometimes i believe (i am being emotive, i just want believe, its like being in love!).
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weetabix
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« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2004, 18:14:47 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan
So, we basic law is this: the people that says that something is true (obes in this case) are the ones that must to proof it; not the opposite.



What a good occasion to plug my topic again ! [Smiley] Over there, a excellent description of sciences.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265

-Weeta
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« Reply #109 on: May 24, 2004, 18:22:03 »

Is everyone ignoring the Verification argument? Beavis was the last person to mention it but some others did too. Verifying things that you saw in an OBE is proof that they are REAL, not just subjective, not just dreams, not just hallucinations. 'Real', as in: Mind seperating from body.

There have been a number of experiments that have shown the ability to verify things from NDEs or OBEs, but - conveniently - the 'scientific community' decide not to recognize the results. So it's down to you individually to prove it to yourself.
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« Reply #110 on: May 24, 2004, 19:31:32 »

quote:
Just some more things: dont be surprised if you see opposite opinions coming from myself. Sometimes i dont believe on obes (when i use my rational spirit) but sometimes i believe (i am being emotive, i just want believe, its like being in love!).


I know just what you mean, Kazbadan.

quote:
in order to observe reality, we cannot accept mystical theories


I disagree. Defining "reality" is hard enough to start with. To say that nothing exists but the wholly-material world in a wholly-material universe is jumping the gun, and to say such would require the burden of proof.

quote:
There have been a number of experiments that have shown the ability to verify things from NDEs or OBEs, but - conveniently - the 'scientific community' decide not to recognize the results. So it's down to you individually to prove it to yourself.


I agree completely. I certainly don't believe I should demand proof from anyone outside of myself. It is, however, fruitful to discuss (in a friendly way, as Kazbadan said) arguments surrounding the reality of OBEs - at least for those of us with little experience. It helps redefine ways of looking at the world.

But for now, I'm gonna go take a look at weetabix's post. Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: May 24, 2004, 22:56:47 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA sctt you make me laugh!!!
do you know what an ignoramus is???
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« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2004, 05:44:13 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

He said something too, related to R.Bruce he is a fruit.

I know what a fruit is, but i sont know if, in this case, it is any bad expression on your language.




Yeah fruit in our language can also be slang for; idiot, psycho, homosexual (as an insult).. it can mean a few things, none of which are nice.
He was insulting Robert Bruce which should not be accepted, im sure Robert Bruce wouldn't care, but it's offensive to those who have learnt a lot from his work.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2004, 18:50:56 »

About the VERIFICATION experiences: i really would like to know that they are true, but we must accept all the possibilities first, particulary the scientific ones:

Many times, when i see someone here in the forum, refering to such verifications, they speak like "One day i had..."; or "At some years ago i...", etc. I mean, they all speak (even experienced projectors) like if their experiences have happened at a long time ago; like if that verification obes were like one in a thousand of obes.

If that is true, that cannot proof anything. Itīs like the card test: if i want to proof that i have psi powers, by guessing cards, i must achieve a great percentage of sucess. Of coarse that anyone, will have, letīs  say, 30% of sucess. Scientists says that, by the laws of Statistic, it would be very strange if someone fails for far morethan 30% (i dont know if that is the number, the exact one).

In the same manner, if obes are just dreams (in a scientific view: just aleatory hallucinations or something like), itīs expected that sometimes they will match (even with high detail) in some way, with reality. Scientists argue that it would be strange if there werenīt "prophetics" dreams (dreams that match with reality), itīs natural that sometimes they happens: itīs statistic. The same for obes.

What do you think about this?
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2004, 19:44:48 »

Kazbadan, I suggest you search these forums and find all of the testimonials of verifications. You tell me if they could be dreams or just chance. There is nothing scientifically wrong with the figures, considering the subject. If someone has 100 projections and on ONE, that person manages to 'see' the four digit number in another room, that is still highly highly unlikely and still constitutes evidence.

This isn't a case of:
1. is it 4169? no  
2. is it 3456? no  
3. is it 1098? no
.
.
12. is it 3424? yes.




This is more like:
1. didn't see it    
2. didn't see it
3. didn't see it
.
.
12. I saw it. It is 3424. Yes



...and I'm talking about real verification, not getting the weather correct. [Wink]
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2004, 20:27:46 »

Hmmm...never think on that before. If is like you say (1 i didn see, 2 i didnt see....etc 14: i see it and itīs 3242:correct afirmation) we are in the presence of more solid proofs, like i am searching for.

My problem with proof is that obe itīs a so damned good thing to be truth, and i dont believe in such good things (the flying sensation itīs a godess one to me...just want to try it). Because of that, i will see if such a good present is not hiding any lie or any trap.

BTW: i must be he most broing guy in the forum asking for proofs![Wink]
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« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2004, 20:58:06 »

[Cheesy] On the contrary Kazbadan, I wish more people would seek proof. There are too many blind believers nowadays, who just believe anything that sounds nice and comforts them. People should seek to KNOW, not just to believe.
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« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2004, 02:32:10 »

Ok ! I will try to share my view with you here, 'cause I have a feeling that opinions are really mixte.  

Probably a part of you believe that Obe couldn't be proved (or it's just not necessary) because it is an subjective "phenomena".  Others would yell about the RTZ possibility to prove it. I don't know why, but I've in the idea that both views are correct !?  Are they two sides of the same coin ?  Or use of each side of our brain..  You know, like 1 + 1 = 2 with my left brain and with my right brain it's BLUE !! (don't ask why it make me laugh, it's my right brain...[Smiley])  Science and Religion (or Spirituality) have been opposed a long time (they still are).  Some studies about "Paranormal" have been maked lately, but the gulf which divide them still exist even if prejudices are breaking (which is a good thing).  

But I think we reach a limit with both (science and spirituality => logic & intuition).  Science can't really be objective.  Objects are analized and defined by an observator.  So objectivity isn't Absolute.  You may argue that many observators can reach it, I will reply that our eyes can't see all the color spectrum.  Also, spirituality can't be more "absolute" than science, with a bigger evidence.  Just think about all "dogmas" (which is not the major point...)

So, where does it bring us !? Oups, I don't remember !  Na.. just kiding [Tongue]

There's limits and we should overpass them.  Should I say metaphysic ?  Oups, we've lost half our reader...[Wink]  
If we could find the cause which explain Obes, would you buy it ?  I mean, not only Obe of course !  But here, I'm really talking about metaphysics (or Hyperscience)... I'm not sure to have right in this forum. So the best is still to put a pointer ([Cheesy]you've noticed.. yes, I plug it again[Cheesy]) http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265

To be harmonized with the topic title, I would say : Truth exist somewhere... just follow link ! [Cheesy]

Sory for those who don't want to hear about it, but do we care !? [:O]

I sincerely believe there is a lot to learn with M. Frank Hatem's Hyperscience (as there is with energie development and obes).  Could it inspire somebody like Robert Bruce's N.E.W do with me..

All that subject are so GREAT !

-Weeta

P.S. to Meedan : What you've said is SO true !  And I take it very personal [B)] ! (not your fault) Does somebody would pray for me, I wish but things are always hard to begin for me
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« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2004, 11:58:08 »

OK. Experience.  I have had a lot of dreams all my life.  I know what it feels like to be in a dream, realise you are dreaming and then take the dream in some self-determined direction.

Also, I have had several OOBE's.  The difference is staggering.

1.  OOBE - massive vibrations, DREAM - no vibrations, ever
2.  OOBE - feels like "super real" DREAM - when you know you are dreaming then you know it is a dream, there is a huge difference here.
3.  OOBE - my wife has "seen" my energy body during return!  DREAM - ok, you get the idea.

OK, just a few points.  But point 2 is interesting ?  If you know the difrerence in feeling between OOBE, dream and awake state then how can it be possible that OOBE and dream are the same ?  

The first time I had an OOBE I knew this was something else.   It is important always in these matters to have an open mind, keep trying with an open mind and you will also learn the difference.
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« Reply #119 on: May 31, 2004, 04:07:28 »

Ok, well I didnt read through all 8 pages of this because I am falling asleep here and I want to go to sleep. BUT....I would just like to comment on why OBE is totally different then a dream and the proof that I have from what I have read and experienced.

When you lay down to go to bed your brainwaves which normally pulse in the beta range will switch to alpha as you relax, then as you approach the edge of falling asleep they will enter theta....when they are in theta, this is the famous mind awake, body asleep state...ala the state in which OBE occurs. If you continue to relax and go with the flow...your body and mind will fall asleep and your consciousness will go with it into the delta state. This is the state of full sleep and unconsciousness and the state in which dreaming takes place.

So in conclusion OBE is different then dreaming because physically our brainwaves are in different states as well as our consciousness being awake or asleep for lack of better terminology.

I have verified this myself by using brainwave music to switch my brainwaves into full theta and I was DEFINATLY not asleep because there was no feeling of ever crossing that point and losing consciousness. While in this state I was able to OBE. If I dont use the theta music then I feel myself cross that certain point in which i switch from theta to delta and I feel my consciousness shut down as I drift asleep and then I end up having a dream.

[Cheesy]
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« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2004, 07:37:29 »

I was quite interested in this argument from the start as I began reading about this whole topic before I got into Rob Bruce and got a lot of information from the writings of following man http://www.geocities.com/ddegraci/ . He had an incredible amount of astral experiences(which he describes in his free internet book DO OBE) but was more of the opinion that the terms astral projection, OBE and lucid dreaming were all connected historically to certain groups(respectively occultist fron 19th century, parasychologists from 60s-70s and modrn psychologists) but all describe the same basic phenomenon. In DO OBE(1994) he takes an occultist viewpoint describing astral planes and such. Afterwards he got his Ph. D in Neurophysiology or similar and did lots of research into dreaming and the mind and now he thinks it can all be explained by the internal workings of the mind. In one of his 4 lectures(PTALK) written after DO OBE he suggests a convergence between occultist view and scientific view is possible due to the nature of quantum mechanics. For exampe if 11 dimensions exists we can see 4 dimensions in physical and the other 7 are the astral planes ( physicists speculate they are just "folded up" somehow). Obviously the argument about being in or out of the body is absurd as everything is produced by consciousness and just an illusion ultimately. I am of the opinion that there can ultimately be no contradiction between our understanding of physics and that of occult reality. These are just different explanations of the same phenomenon. Einstein said "God does not play dice". Of course he was wrong in the end. Not even the greatest genius can always see everything. There can obviously be no true separation between physical and astral/spiritual realms ultimately so that understanding the quantum mechanical connection over our consciousness is important. Even though we argue now over semantics( basically two men see a tree and both invent a different word for it then argue about it forever) as to what it is to be in  some other realm of consciousness in terms of physical explanation or occult explanation be assured God/Turth is all encompassing and can take in both views in a much more comprehensive theoretical framework which eliminates any contradictions so that everyone actually is right.  We just do not yet have this framework as we are at a much too primitive level of development.
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« Reply #121 on: June 04, 2004, 15:14:51 »

I agree with galacticsurfer.

Here's a definition of science:

   1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
   2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
   3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
   4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

I think that those definitions have a lot to say about science and OBEs, proof and OBEs. I still maintain that at this level, proof for OBEs is only found at an individual level. Even if we knew enough and could put that knowledge into an accurate language, and could prove OBEs, people have a tendency to believe what they want. Whether they obstinately choose to believe against OBEs or for them. That's why I think no. 4 above is so important.
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« Reply #122 on: June 04, 2004, 15:42:17 »

quote:
Originally posted by mactombs

I still maintain that at this level, proof for OBEs is only found at an individual level.



I just want to add that :
"I - I AM.

The sensation of being is a certitude. Only the sensation, not its form. My sensation of being is the sensation that there is a universe. It means that being is a DUALITY. I say "I am" because I feel in opposition with "what I feel I am not". I feel that the infinity around me is outside me, is not me. This object of consciousness makes me feel "I am".


II - I AM IS ALL.

There's nothing in the universe which is not contained in this sensation of being: everything I can experience is a sensation of "I AM". Hence, if I want to be scientific, I must recognize that NOTHING EXISTS OUTSIDE MYSELF, since the whole universe is MY SENSATION. So, I am obliged to say: "I am not a body". For my body is a sensation among many others, and all of them are included in "I AM". I can't be at the same time matter or body, which are forms of sensation, and the sentient act itself. These are two different persons, and the first step to initiation is to recognize the distinction between these two aspects of reality: what I am, and what I feel myself to be. I am the consciousness of things, not things themselves.


III - SO, EVERYTHING IS MENTAL.

Everything is A PART OF MIND. OF MY MIND. Matter itself is a sensation of mind. Now you can no longer remain a physicist. If you are still in some doubt, ask yourself the question: "can I be conscious of something which is outside my consciousness?" The answer is NO. I can't be. If I feel or observe something, it obviously means that it is INSIDE my mind. If it is outside my mind, I can't have any consciousness of it. Quantum Physics is obliged to admit that. The whole universe, all that can be conscious, is spiritual. You can by no means prove the existence of something matérial, though you can be sure of mind. So, be scientific. Reject hypotheses. Reject matter as such.
"
[From : http://www.hatem.com/metah.htm -by Frank Hatem]

-Weeta
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« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2004, 08:58:24 »

Cool post weetabix! Lets go meditating and see for ourselfs!
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« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2004, 09:05:37 »

McTombs:
quote:
1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.


The second item is uncesseraily restrictive since any natura phenomena can only be classified as such after an investigation of an unclassified phenomena. Restricting science to investigate only "natural" phenomena leads to an arbitrary classification of phenomena as natural.

weeta:
Nice quote.

2cents & L&L
jouni
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