Verification experiences: Commonplace or Rare?

[atraveler]

I'm relatively new to the forums and to OBEs/AP but I'm making promising preliminary progress.  How many people here have had "verification experiences"?  This is the kind of experience in which you exit your body and you visit a friend or relative while you're out of body and you successfully report what they were doing.  Another type would be to have a friend paste a word on a piece of paper in a closed room in his house and you would go to their house while in the out of body state and successfully read the message on the paper and report it back to the friend.

Wouldn't an experience like this (or several) make the difference for a projector between deciding if OBEs are just your imagination or if they're really real?  For that matter, are there any experienced projectors who've done plenty of verification experiences who have considered winning the James Randi challenge?
http://skepdic.com/randi.html

[CFTraveler]

Are you a member of the randi forum?

[atraveler]

No, I'm not a member of that forum.  Last night I was talking with my next door neighbor who's also a friend who has an open mind but is very skeptical.  He goes to the Randi conferences and is a fan.  He gave me permission to try to enter his house in the out of body state.  I've read Randi's site and while I believe that skepticism is very important, it can itself become a dogma which keeps you from new experiences.  If Newton and Franklin and Einstein and Babbage were so skeptical, we probably wouldn't have all the technology we do today. Five hundred years ago, who would have thought we'd have all the technology we do today?

[CFTraveler]

I'm only asking because the Randi people are not skeptics, they are pseudo-skeptics.  They don't issue the challenge to give anyone the opportunity to win, but to make fun of them.  I participate in many forums who have had them come in and do their thing, and have some threads that may (or may not) interest you.
To begin:   http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60189

More info:  http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge.html
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p.html


Debunking the pseudo-skeptics:  http://www.near-death.com/experiences/skeptic09.html

In the next thread scroll to the post from Zante.  When Zante says 'skeptics' he means Randi people.  I have another thread where he clarifies this.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html;msg215158#msg215158

If you ever read threads I participate in, you will see that I am skeptical about a lot of things, and still, after a lifetime of projecting and numerous validations, haven't made up my mind that the experience isn't completely subjective.  Subjective it is, no doubt about it, and if you read enough you will see that there is enough in the validation dept. that supports the idea it is not, and that consciousness can exist outside of the body, especially in NDE reports and studies.
What my problem is with these 'challenges' is that most (not all, I met the nicest Randi person, or at least I thought he was until I went to his other website) of the people that involve themselves in them are on a crusade, some to entertain themselves by putting other people down because they don't share their worldview, others that are convinced that people who have any beliefs about the afterlife are morons and must be disabused of their delusions, and yet others see threats in what they consider 'dangerous hope' and must save these poor dying people from having any hope of survival.  In all these types there is an undercurrent of superiority-"they know better." 

You should know that Randi doesn't accept all challenges, and considers any challenge he can falisify as 'false'.  So if you really want to know if AP is 'real', do it and find out for yourself.  But if you project, go to your friend's house and see what he was wearing last night, it will be deemed 'false', because anyone can call his friend and ask him what he's wearing, and then say he projected there.  So your subjective experience doesn't count, because it's subjective.  And what projection isn't?

More interesting fun stuff to read:

http://www.gamegene.com/esci_blog013scepticsdoubted.html
http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/propaganda/

[catmeow]

Totally agree with every word CFTraveller.

I am a true skeptic, unlike Randi. True skeptics have not made their mind up. Randi has already made his mind up.  His fans can also be quite unpleasant individuals.  Some of the Randi forums are laughable, last time I browsed I quickly found a comment similar to "by definition ESP doesn't exist, therefore this guy is cheating. qed."

Randi retains the right to decide whether an experiment constitues "proof" or not. So if you succeed he will undoubtedly find some reason why the experiment was invalid and ask for a repeat.  He can (and will) keep on doing this until you fail, at which point he will declare the result a failure, publicly discredit you, and keep his money.  The challenge can not be taken seriously whilst he retains the right to do this.  An indpendent panel of judges is required.

btw The michael prescott blog link is very good....

[atraveler]

CFTraveler - Thanks again for answering my post!  You've answered several of my recent posts and I really appreciate the advice!  I totally agree with you about the pseudo-skeptics; they're not "seekers" like the people here are (including me).

You mentioned in this quote: "and still, after a lifetime of projecting and numerous validations, haven't made up my mind that the experience isn't completely subjective" (I'm not sure how to do that special formatting where it shows peoples' quotes.)

If you've had several validations, how could you not be totally convinced?  There's the argument that information obtained while out of body is actually remote viewing, but that's merely a semantic argument.  You're probably at a very advanced skill level.  Couldn't you just carry out a series of experiments with a friend of yours across town?  While other people whom you told about the results of your experiments with your friend would have plenty of reason not to believe you, wouldn't you and your friend be totally convinced?  For example, if on ten separate occasions my friend were to print out a word or phrase in big bold letters and paste it in a room with no windows, and I were to read the word or phrase correctly at least, say, 3 times, we'd both be pretty convinced.  We could even do it so that he puts the paper in a box and I don't reveal the phrase until after he produces the box - etc. etc. etc.

By now, I'm totally convinced that the "OBE experience" is real.  I haven't yet convinced myself (Robert Monroe's "known vs. belief") that the consciousness exits the body.

Thanks again!
Atraveler

[bjb1234]

What your talking about is validations that it is possible to view the physical world in 100% real time while in the spiritual world (the astral dimensions of reality).

Now personally i dont know if thats possible.

Many people report validations, which are personal experiences to them of which there is no other explanation.

Me personally i dont know if you can view the physical from the spiritual atleast not in its 100% actual form we see it in when in our bodies. 

You must remember the astral or non physical worlds are ruled by different laws, different frequencies or vibrations.  So it might be safe to assume you cannot view the physical in 100% real time while in the astral worlds.  But who knows.

Thats part of the mystery and the experience i guess... just enjoy it.

[Vitruvian]

(I'm not sure how to do that special formatting where it shows peoples' quotes.)

Atraveler,
Use the 'Insert Quote' message icon available on the 'Post reply' page; it's the yellow one at the end of the 2nd row, hold your cursor over them.

Re: your post . . . I love the word 'real', it means so many different things! People come in to my jewelry store all the time and ask me, "Is this diamond real?"; and because they handed it to me I assure them it is. However, I add, it might be a real diamond, or a real CZ, a real moissanite, etc. They actually want to know if it's genuine.

And so I believe it is (from research, not much experience) with the typical OBE.

These are the genuine, unique experiences of many, many people through the centuries. They are certainly 'real' to the people experiencing them. How that OBE reality meshes with the world of our consciousness is a nebulous area of conjecture. I believe there is an overlap to some degree; to what degree is something I'm very interested in, just as your post shows you are. One initial problem I've seen is that the more experienced people here have some strange and wonderful stories to tell about those other realities. It does NOT seem to be the norm that they simply interface with the dimension we are used to, but rather travel to other realms - some almost identical, some radically different.

I attempted to verify my one and only OBE with no luck, yet, it most certainly was a real and very unique experience to me.
Vitruvian

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler - Thanks again for answering my post!  You've answered several of my recent posts and I really appreciate the advice!  I totally agree with you about the pseudo-skeptics; they're not "seekers" like the people here are (including me).

You mentioned in this quote: "and still, after a lifetime of projecting and numerous validations, haven't made up my mind that the experience isn't completely subjective" (I'm not sure how to do that special formatting where it shows peoples' quotes.)

If you've had several validations, how could you not be totally convinced?  There's the argument that information obtained while out of body is actually remote viewing, but that's merely a semantic argument.  You're probably at a very advanced skill level.  Couldn't you just carry out a series of experiments with a friend of yours across town?  While other people whom you told about the results of your experiments with your friend would have plenty of reason not to believe you, wouldn't you and your friend be totally convinced?  For example, if on ten separate occasions my friend were to print out a word or phrase in big bold letters and paste it in a room with no windows, and I were to read the word or phrase correctly at least, say, 3 times, we'd both be pretty convinced.  We could even do it so that he puts the paper in a box and I don't reveal the phrase until after he produces the box - etc. etc. etc.

Because if I were totally convinced of anything then the nature of the experience would lose it's magic (part of the reason), because astral travel is not as simple as going somewhere in the real time zone, and because If I became convinced of anything at all, my mind would become complacent and I wouldn't feel there's anything left to learn, and I would stop learning.  And that's not why I'm here.
You see, astral travel has many levels and components of experience, and they are all mediated by the subconscious mind.  So when I travel to my husband's job and see what he's doing (done it, verified it) and then tell him, even though he and I have gone to the same places in dreams and at the same time, and those can be said to be verified or 'real', on the occassion I'll have visits from higher or lower aspects of myself, to tell me things about myself and my life that I need to change, etc- and it's very easy to take these as 'objectively real' and let them dictate reality for me- and that would be very very bad.
So part of being an astral traveler is knowing how to discern when an experience is collective, when it is subjective, and when it's your subconscious messing with you, to put it simply.
Sometimes we're too eager to receive messages from the 'other side' and believe everything we get- that can be, well, dangerous.
So, it is my prevailing attitude to 'enjoy the show' and not worry too much about which part of it is real and which is not.   

[Zante]

It's been a while since I last posted here and these threads bring back many memories.

The following is based on my own experience of life and is by no means an objective truth, think what you will.

To atraveler, it's not as simple as having one validation experience, or even many. As time passes, we begin to doubt ourselves. As we meet new people, who are unable to relate to our experiences, we tend to conform to how we perceive that social group might expect us to be/act (not so different, those two words). It's dangerous to linger with one crowd for too long, we have a tendency to stagnate and lose sight of our true goal (to explore and make known the unknown), substituting the general consensus in it's stead. Even hanging around these forums here can be bad for you. I remember, when I first began this 'journey', how frustrated I was that other people were achieving these incredible experiences so effortlessly whilst I was constantly trying to force something to happen. I was too excited to even realise that when it did happen, it came about of it's own accord. I have only ever, successfully, forced the experience once and it was a stupid thing to do, though I was desperate at the time (I ought to say now before people start 'thinking', no drugs were involved).

Of course, the point you're making is that it only needs to be done once under controlled conditions, with the results recorded so as to refute all doubt. This is a perfectly reasonable request and I don't know how to answer it without seeming as though I'm making excuses. So, reader, roll your eyes if it makes you feel comfortable - there's no reason to be tense.

Again, this is as I see things ('woo' or not):

It's not as simple as projecting consciousness, you need a state of mind - not just temporary stability but something that's been cultivated over a period of time. The best way I can describe the cultivation process is "via the clever use of emotions".

You need to be prepared to 'blow it all', this would assert that I'm quantifying something here - I am but it's difficult to describe, the closest word I can think of is 'favour'. This is why repeat experiences are so difficult to 'achieve' for some people. You need to build a deep relationship with yourself first (perhaps this does something to the projected double, I'm not sure).

The whole thing is one giant exercise in focus, integrity and awareness, and I'm not talking about staring at candles for hours on end. You don't need to be in complete control of your thoughts for these experiences to happen, as long as you're aware that you're having a certain thought it's enough. If you're aware for long enough (without trying to force a change), your subconscious starts to take notice that you're 'present' and then you set something very important in motion - the ability to remember what goes on 'behind the scenes'. Dream recollection is made easier by this as well as other things. You start to notice things about your body that you might not have before, the flow of blood becomes very evident for one thing (I assume it's the flow of blood, it's a current you can feel running through your entire body) - Daoism has some very interesting literature on this phenomenon.

I could write so much more than this but it's only going to get more confusing. Without experiencing it, it's all BS to many, for that reason alone I'm not doing any more at the moment. Enjoy the confusion :[

Edit: I'm talking about achieving a recognizable RTZ experience, it can be a natural state of mine, of that I have no doubt, but the variables - too many arrgh etc...

[atraveler]

Hi Zante,

Thanks for your reply.  It sounds like what you're saying is that no matter how many "verification experiences" one has, it may be impossible for most people (not including Robert Bruce and some of the "masters") to convince themselves 100% that indeed it is real (or "genuine" as a previous poster explained).  The fact that it's nowhere near as "real" to others as it is to you may erode one's long-term confidence in its realness.

Just to clarify, I believe that OBEs are 100% real because I've experienced several, albeit with tons of dream imagery superimposed.  It's whether they imply a soul which actually leaves the body or awareness which actually focuses on some other real and consistent "place" (as in phasing) - which is still up for debate.

I imagine that even for the very advanced people on this site, projecting into the RTZ from a conscious state isn't as easy as going to get a beer out of the refrigerator.  Plus, most projectors probably can't control what they'll get when they exit.

This is interesting.  It kind of implies that one's primary goal should not be verification because that would be a very frustrating endeavor for the "non-advanced".  Instead, the goal should be to experience whatever there is to experience.  I think my current slump may be exacerbated by my eagerness to project.  The next time I get vibrations from the dream state, maybe I'll just lay there and observe.

Cheers,
Atraveler

[CFTraveler]

I imagine that even for the very advanced people on this site, projecting into the RTZ from a conscious state isn't as easy as going to get a beer out of the refrigerator.  Plus, most projectors probably can't control what they'll get when they exit.

This is interesting.  It kind of implies that one's primary goal should not be verification because that would be a very frustrating endeavor for the "non-advanced". 

That's how I see it anyway. 
I hope you get out of your slump.
The 'observing' idea is a good one, and one I use when I get into slumps.  I always learn something from them.

[Zante]

At the end of the day, OBE's are a side effect of energy cultivation. The phenomena you experience aren't that important but they're good markers, sometimes at least. The reason we focus on OBEs so much is that no one really understands them yet and it's something akin to a wake up call. The further people progress, the more it seems as though they're being watched/guided. Whether it's a subconscious filter of some sort, I don't know. Beware people who vie for authority over this subject, they may have started off having these experiences but I can almost guarantee you that by the time they start writing books like "Our Ultimate Reality" and advertising other products that have nothing to do with any of this that they've lost it all.

It is alarming.

[atraveler]

Hi Zante,

I agree with you.  It's one thing to have experiences, teach others, comment on them, and speculate on their meaning.  It's yet another to make inferences and start trying to explain "how things really are", what they should mean to you, and what you should do about it.

Cheers,
Atraveler