What is all this new age crap?

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Oliver

Hi aphie,

Welcome to the forumhttp://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Its no ones job to try and convince you. You seem to be very sure of your thoughts on the matter. What is your background in obe's,  etc?

Have you had experiences that proved to you that obe's were brain processes and nothing more or less? What exactly do you mean by brain process?

Oliver



Frank



I'm sorry, but from your post it is blatent that you have no idea what a "soul" is. Your soul is not some kind of abstract mystical concept, it is simply You. Meaning, your collective sense of conscious awareness. The very fact that you have the sense of consciousness to post to this group *is* proof you have a soul.

Yes, obe's are interesting experiences. If you follow them through and learn to tread the correct path on the Astral, then the full truth behind our Human existence will be revealed to you. Then you will no-longer be confused.

The reason why people create these demons and so forth is because what we call "thought" is in fact a primary energy. We don't notice it so much on the Physical plane because our physical body acts as a very effective buffer. But, on the Astral, thought-fuelled emotion instantly creates your surroundings. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, many people don't seem to realise this.

Yours,
Frank




James S

Hi Jason,

I too am new to this forum, and struggle to wrap my head around a lot of the topics raised here. I've a very scientific and analytical mind, with a solid background in physics, engineering & some biology, esp. anatomy.  I have an understanding of most of what's been talked about here, but a lot of the people here have seen and done thiings that I'm just not experienced enough to comment on. Doesn't mean I think its fantasy though. I too have had experiences that are just too bizzare to be explained by conventional logic, and yet too real to ingore.

Regarding OBEs, quite possible it is just a brain function. But many studied psychic phenomena fall into that category. Thing is there isn't anyone yet who knows enough about the mind/brain to solidly prove or disprove any of  it.

Oliver's right about not being here to convince you. Nobody's done that to me and I'm greatful for it. Its good to have opinions from people who don't want to take everything at face value. We can all learn better by having a balanced set of views. Keep an open mind though. I can tell you, in recent times my ideas on life, the universe & everything have taken a bit of a bruising. You'll find that a lot of the members of this forum have a pretty solid grasp on the real world, as well as being open to what's beyond that.

Just remember - reality is a hell of a lot stranger than most people think.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are
dreamt of in your philosophy." -William Shakespeare

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

TheCountess

Hi Jason.

IMO, most people equate OBEs with the paranormal because that's exactly what it feels like.  It feels like the "soul" is actually getting up, out, and leaving the body behind.  That's what the mind portrays.  It's not such a far leap for people to believe what their minds portray.  Yet obviously, this is more subjective than objective.  

But in taking a look at a variety of my experiences objectively, I have come across no evidence that would lead me to believe that I am actually leaving the body.  If anything, I've found the opposite.  

But that doesn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying the experience, or from talking with others whose experiences may be different than my own.  I try to remain open minded and hope that I will learn something new or different along the way.


aphexcoil

Thank you all for sharing your views.

My interpretation of the subjective effects of OBEs is that it is a very interesting state of consciousness that doesn't really fit into a dream state or a waking state, but rather a combination or crossroads between the two states.

My OBE's always consist of an area of "black void" from which I can move around (without physically moving around) or enter into a state of lucid dreaming.  The lucid dreaming stage is so incredibly vivid that it puts reality to shame.  In fact, many times this state will not last very long because I get very excited, causing the experience to retract itself.

I can induce this OBE crossroads area almost at will.  If I go to bed at night, sleep for a few hours and then get up to do some writing for school, then I will most likely have them when I go and lie back down.

In fact, I *wanted* to have one early this morning and I was able to.  This time, it was very strange because I felt like I was floating around and slowly bouncing off the ground, as if I was in a very light-gravity environment.  When I open my eyes in this state, I generally see both what is there and what is not.  I usually face my alarm clock and, when in this state, I can read the time, but there is other things around me that I cannot describe.  It is a very strange type of vision.  

During the OBE episode (and I call it OBE because that is the accepted terminology here), the loud ringing stated up in my head.  Once this happens, I get very excited because then I know I'm about to enter into a really "cool" type of consciousness.  I then, with my eyes shut and no vision, had the sensation that I was rolling down a hill like I used to do as a kid.  The rolling was pretty violent but the physical sensations of rolling were very real, unlike regular run-of-the-mill dreams.

I then remember the sensation that I was holding onto a rope that was suspended from a tall ceiling.  I was in a different room than my bedroom and there was a large church window with a very warm blue light behind it.  I remember trying to swing myself so I could bust through the window, but was unable to do so.  

At this point, the OBE subsided and I woke up.  I was a little upset that it didn't last longer.

My belief is that OBE's are just the result of processes within the brain that some people are able to tune into before or after falling asleep.  It is a very difficult balancing act to find that right niche to enter into that state, but once you are there, you know exactly what is going on.  As a kid, I used to be terrified of the experiences, but now I use them to enter lucid-dreaming states to gain insights on problems, practice interacting with dream characters and observing symbolism.  

The lucid-dream state is a wonderful place to get a lot of very original ideas if you are an artist.  I have done a few digital artwork pictures based upon some of the places I have seen while in the lucid-dream state / OBE state.  

However, to say that one has a "soul" independent of the body is a stretch in my opinion.  The brain and the processes within the brain are what make up our thoughts, ideas, emotions and goals.  To suggest that there must be a further element to consciousness is to make the problem more complicated.  

I am a very honest and straightforward person.  I have never had an experience during an OBE session that signifies that I am able to view information at remote locations or actually "travel" anywhere.  I was brought up to have a very critical and observant mind, although I have observed a few things in my life that defied rational and logical explanation.  

1)  When I went to camp one summer as a kid, I woke up one morning crying and didn't know why.  My parents were coming to visit me that day.  When they came to visit me, as soon as I saw them, I just blurted out, "you got rid of our dog!  Why?" and started to cry.  Amazingly, they had to get rid of our dog and there was no possible way I could have ever known.  To this day, I don't know how or why I knew -- but the simple fact was that I did know somehow.

2) I can go into old buildings and generally feel some affinity towards the building, and a lot of times I feel extremely happy and warm inside old buildings -- and I especially often get waves of "emotion" as I go through different rooms.  I have no way of explaining this, but can only speak from my observation that it does happen and I am affected for some reason or another.

There are things in life that I cannot explain, but this does not mean there is no rational explanation for them.

Jason


astralmaster

Hi all,
You should all find this very interesting. Taken from Vincent Haske's book:

In the late 1960s Charles Tart began the first laboratory tests with subjects who could have OBEs voluntarily [Tar67, 68]. In addition to his physiological research he also tested subjects' ability to see a target hidden from their normal sight. His first subject, Miss Z., was tested in a laboratory where a target was placed on a shelf about five and a half feet above the bed where she lay. The target was a five-digit number prepared in advance by Tart and placed on the shelf. Miss Z. slept in the laboratory on four occasions. On the first she had no OBE; on the second, she managed to get high enough to see the clock, and on third night she had an OBE but traveled elsewhere. However, on her fourth and last night she awoke and reported that she had seen the number and it was 25132. She was right on all five digits which has a probability of only one in 100,000 of being right by chance.
Tart himself seemed reluctant to conclude that it was paranormal. Tart's second subject was Robert Monroe, who came to the laboratory for nine sessions, but he was only able to induce an OBE in the penultimate session, and then he had two. During the first of these OBEs he seemed to see a man and a woman but not to know who or where they were. In the second he made a great effort to stay 'local' and managed to see a technician, who was supposed to be monitoring the apparatus. With her he saw a man whom he did not know was there and whom he later described. It turned out that this was the husband of the technician, who had come to keep her company. Since Monroe did not manage to see the target number, no real test of ESP was possible.
In 1971 Karlis Osis began to plan OBE research at the American SPR. One of the first subjects to be tested there was Ingo Swann, who went to the laboratory two or three times a week where Janet Mitchell tested him to see whether he could identify a target placed out of sight. A platform was suspended from the ceiling about 10 feet above the ground and divided into two. On either side of a partition various objects were placed and Swann was asked to try to travel up to see them. The reason for the partition was to see whether Swann would identify the correct target for the position in which he claimed it to be. Bright colors and clear familiar shapes seemed most successful and glossy pictures or glass did not work well for the experimental purposes.
After his OBE, Swann usually made drawings of what he had 'seen.' Although these drawings were far from perfect renderings of the original objects, they were similar enough that when eight sets of targets and respondes were given to an independent judge she correctly matched every pair; a result which is likely to happen by chance only once in about 40,000 times

David
David

astralmaster

I think that my post should be sufficient enough too prove that OBE's are not pieces of our imagination...

David
David

aphexcoil

Hello Astralmaster!

Allow me to refer you to the following:

http://skepdic.com/dreams.html

Quote:

"Nowadays, hardly anyone believes that dreams are messages from the gods. But some parapsychologists, such as Charles Tart, believe that dreams offer entry into another universe, a paranormal universe of OBEs, cosmic messages, and blissful nirvana. His main evidence for this seems to be his personal faith and an anecdote about his baby sitter. He claims the unnamed baby sitter (he calls her "Miss Z") had the power to leave her body during sleep. He claims he tested his flying babysitter in his sleep lab at UC Davis after she told him that she "thought everyone went to sleep, woke up in the night, floated up near the ceiling for a while, then went back to sleep." Other psychologists might have been concerned for the mental well-being of "Miss Z" and the safety of his or her children. Tart was intrigued. He put a number on a shelf, hooked up "Miss Z" to an EEG machine and put her to bed. She claims that even though she didn't read the number on the shelf, she flew around the room the first few nights. She didn't get the number right until the fourth night. Skeptics think either Tart is making up the story or it took the girl four nights to figure out how to trick the scientist. (See Tart's 'A Psychophysiological Study of Out-of-the-Body Experiences in a Selected Subject,' Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, 62, pp. 3-27.) Others have investigated the question of whether the mind is open to telepathic input during sleep and have failed to find evidence of psychic ability while dreaming. Scientific research by psychiatrist Montague Ullman and parapsychologist Charles Honorton in the early 1970s at Maimonides Hospital in Brooklyn, New York, obtained chance results after an initial testing that looked positive for psi (Baker)."

Jason


Frank



Problem is, I often come across situations where people are merely scratching the surface, yet are coming to far-reaching conclusions as to the nature of obe's.

People think that learning how to project is the difficult bit. Nope, that's the easy bit. The big difficulty is gaining a proper degree of control over the projection experience at the time. That's the really hard part.

On the Astral, as you think, so it becomes, in glorious 3D Technicolour. As such, one of the hardest and most difficult things to do is to simply remain completely still: both in body (Astral) and in mind.

From this standpoint, you make progress by developing an air of mild curiosity. Deviate from this state of mind just one iota, and you go off on a self-driven tangent. Which is a very difficult situation to get out of. Of course, there are sure to be a small number of people who can achieve the requisite degree of stillness naturally. But it took me over 5-years to do.

People also make distinctions between what are perceived as dreams, lucid dreams, or astral projection. But, basically, each state is an obe state. The only real difference is the person's degree of conscious perception.

Yours,
Frank


Ashfo

Charles Tart's tests were actually disproven because apparently the number could be seen from a reflection somewhere... but that doesnt discount the fact that Monroe saw a person in the corridor adjacent.

Aphexcoil, you have to discover it for yourself. I find it ironic how we will see some scientific breakthrough on the news and immediatley have faith in it whereas we see something otherwordly first-hand but still have doubts. We are programmed to believe in science and not the paranormal. Noone who shows you or proves/explains to you will ever have the influence of self discovery.

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

aphexcoil

Ashfo,

The simple truth is this.  If OBEs *were* real and things such as ESP *was* actually true, wouldn't the rest of the world know about it as well?  There are over 5 billion people on this planet -- why are these subjects on the fringe of our society?  

Why don't we have sitcoms where Roseanne wakes up and talks about her latest OBE trip?  Why is all of this astral travel talk only found in the niche recesses of the internet?

Even if it was remotely true, many more scientists would devote more time to this field.  Why don't most scientists devote time to this field?  Well, because throughout time, no research as conclusively proved anything "paranormal."  There is simply nothing to back-up the claims that there is a paranormal co-existence to our everday reality.

People who cannot accept that are doing so for personal reasons -- perhaps they need to believe in it for whatever reason.  Hey, if it makes you feel better as a person, I'm all for it.  However, just because there are a few discussion boards on the internet that let people discuss their latest spiritual quest does not make it truth.  

People congagate to these places to reinforce their own beliefs by the beliefs of others -- which in themselves have no foundation in proof.  

Show me one bit of scientific evidence that is well-documented by reputable sources concerning any of this and I will change my views accordingly.  However, up to this point, I have found nothing that even remotely shows that any of this is possible.

You may be curious as to why I am here, then.  Quite simply, at some point I did believe just as you all do.  However, I retracted those beliefs after studying the facts and rationalizing my own experiences.  I am just trying to tell all of you to try and do the same.  Don't get caught up in hype simply to believe in something.  Try to make sense of your experiences and ask yourself, "what is the most logical reason for these experiences."

Thank you for your time!

Jason



Frank



Jason, now you are really knocking on the door of your own limitations. :)

I think what you need to accept is that everyone is at a different level of spiritual advancement. And one of the primary functions of this BBS is to simply bring people together so we can try and give each other a hand-up where we can.

What we are involved in here is a new and emerging science. As such, there is no concrete "proof" as yet, that is sufficient to convince people who are naturally very skeptical.

Sorry that your skepticism seems to have got the better of you.

I guess that is understandable given the circumstances. Many people try and fail before they can give themselves the chance to get to understand the true nature of the obe phenomenon. I was at it 20 years before making any real kind of sense of it all.

You said you have experienced buzzing and floating sensations. These begin to occur when you are just beginning to scratch the surface. It seems to me like you gave up just when you were starting to make progress.

Yours,
Frank


James S

Hello again Jason,

There are two very good reasons why scientists don't spend more time researching OBEs and other paranormal events - money and reputation.

There is no money to be made in researching OBEs.

What noted scientist is going to stick his reputation and research grants on the chopping block by running OBE experiments. What if he does find something. He'll be the laughing stock fo his peers and his career will come to a swift end because chances are he won't be able to explain his findings using existing laws of physics. Look in your local library and you should find many case studies into the paranormal that all end up with "no explanation can be given".

You had a link earlier to SkepDic.com. Don't give that lot too much credence either. I read an article of theirs on disproving aural vision that was so ridiculously biased against it, they made bold statements based on "scientific fact" that was very poorly researched. They openly stated -

"no one has ever detected an aura or the alleged energy that gives rise to an aura using scientific equipment. Human tissue is about a million times less sensitive than something like a PET scanner, yet we are supposed to believe that some special people can "see" what cannot otherwise be detected.".

What total and utter uninformed CRAP!
Positron Emission Topography looks at cellular density and derives images accordingly, as do MRI scans. If you want to look at auras, which are basically the bodie's bioelectric field, you use biomagnetic imaging equipment such as biomagnetometers, or SQUIDs (Superconductive QUantum Imaging Device).

Unfortunately you've made a similar type of statement -
"Why don't most scientists devote time to this field? Well, because throughout time, no research as conclusively proved anything "paranormal." There is simply nothing to back-up the claims that there is a paranormal co-existence to our everday reality."

Our old spoon-bending friend Uri Geller had mettalurgical analases done by one french team using a scanning electron microscope to test the spoons he was bending, both before and after. Before - normal steel as expected. After, the area of the bend had hardened similar to metal subjected to intense external pressure, far more than any human could apply. Other tests showed the metal around the bend had turned to a consistency similar to chewing gum. (Reference - Mind and Matter, the real science behind science fiction, author - Michael White)

It's not safe to make such absolute statements like this - it shows a closed mind.

Don't let a faith in science stop you from believing that there is more to this world than what science can prove. After all, a few hundred years ago the earth WAS flat, and WAS the centre of the universe. It was the simple truth, and the few people on "the fringe" who believed otherwise were mocked and persecuted.

Most people in the world aren't really interested in anything outside of what the world that they know and are told about by the precious few on this planet who actually control the media. If I went up to somebody on the street and told them that there is another universe that exist in parallel to our own, they'd think I'm delusional. But in 1957 physicist Hugh Everett, using light patterns, found solid, irrefutable evidence that there exists at least one other parallel universe that affects our own on an atomic level. Most scientists still do not believe this, but none can actually disprove his theory or refute his evidence. Quantum physics is doing more towards explaining the unexplainable every day. Look up "Hugh Everett" if you want. there's plenty of info on him and even more freaky quantum mechanics theories.

You have had experiences you can't explain,and you seem to have an innate talent with lucid dreaming that most could only ever hope for. So what if you can't explain it logically or rationally. Doctors today still can't explain even half of how the brain works.

As for "the most logical reason" for things, that sounds a lot like Ockham's Razor - "The simplest explaination is often the correct one". Well that certainly didn't apply to Hugh Everett's findings, nor has it applied to many other startling scientific discoveries.

Sorry if I rambled a bit there. The point I'm trying to make is that there is more to this world than what we know. Science doesn't have all the answers. Logic cannot always be applied. Laws of phisics are being rewritten and new laws being discovered all the time. Trust yourself more and believe that if something inexplicable happened to you, it really happened. History has proved time and again that popular opinion, and scientific views are not always correct. A good example - our video recorders should be using Beta not VHS, it was proven to be the superior format, but unfortunately not the popular one.

There are a lot more people in this world who believe in the supernatural than you think. Sit down and have a quiet one on one chat with a friend and you'll probably find that something unusual has happened to them as well. Most people just won't talk aout it for fear of being mocked. As you say "try to make sense of your experience". But also, don't get caught up in public pressure to disbelieve something just because it isn't the mainstream view.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

BD

QuoteOriginally posted by aphexcoil:
Ashfo,


Show me one bit of scientific evidence that is well-documented by reputable sources concerning any of this and I will change my views accordingly.  However, up to this point, I have found nothing that even remotely shows that any of this is possible.


Hello Ashfo.... here's one for you:

http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

BD







Tom

Logic, science, and the evidence of my senses caused me to doubt religion and finally to abandon it long ago. Anything without a logical reason and purpose had no room in my mind. I told a nun that there is no god and no soul. When she asked, then, what happens after death I told her that people die and their bodies are disposed of. As for the dead person, I explained that there is only the same nothingness which preceded birth. Nothing but a perfect, complete lack of experience. The nun thought that this was a terrible way to believe, but I told her that it was my most comfortable thought that some day I would be gone so totally that literally no experience would remain. That just made things worse for the nun. Roman Catholic, if you are wondering.

Now I accept the possibility of astral projection even though I am still trying to do it. As to whether it is objective or subjective or proof of survival, does it matter? If it proves survival after death that is good. If it does not prove survival after death it still does not disprove survival. It is still worth learning astral projection when nothing is proven because astral projection can be a lot of fun. Without personal experience it is all opinion anyway.



HooVooLoo

Hello aphexcoil...

I feel that there is such a preponderance of evidence (prima facie), that the burden is now on science to disprove the phenomena.  And if you keep on exploring your buzzing and vibrations, you too may find the "proof" you are looking for.

Read them all and you may start to doubt your disbelief once more...
http://www.near-death.com/index.html

Tom

The problem is that the physical world contains the physical world. The astral contains both the astral and the physical. If you are in the astral you can reach the astral or the physical, but if you are in the physical you are stuck there and can reach only the physical. The mental can go down to the astral and the physical because it contains both. As humans, we are on the physical and astral and mental. We extend even higher than that and so we can go higher than that by shifting awareness there. What happens when we try to prove higher levels by purely physical means we get stuck. It would be better to try to prove the physical level from the astral or the mental because we would be outside it and have tools to hold on to it with. We cannot use purely physical means and a purely physical perspective to manipulate the nonphysical. To gain proof of higher levels we must start from higher levels still.



k2sixx

#17
I've beleived life after death for a good part of my life.

Watch John Edward on Crossing Over... great show!  It is on all day on your cable channel: Sci-Fi.  I don't know why they would play this show on a "Science-Fiction" channel, but this is anything but fiction.  Watch one episode if you haven't yet.


Tom

K2sixx, are you really telling us that you believe in life after death because you saw it on tv? And further, that we can go the same route?



k2sixx

Hey... I can't verify life after death yet man... I haven't died.  But dont make it look like I am gullible by saying "Cuz you saw it on TV?"  Have you seen the show bro?  What do you make of it?  He is no Jerry Springer.

I haven't even achieved a conscious OOBE yet, so I can only believe through what I've read and what I've seen.  That is all you can do.  What more does it take?  Tell me if you have a problem with any of this.


Tom

Theoretically, all of us have died many times. Remembering previous lives is unusual and so is remembering being born. It is easier to prove having been born. Proving something, regardless of what it is, is a matter of taking something which you have discovered or learned for yourself and bringing it to other people in such a way that they can choose to gain the knowledge directly or just choose to accept the conclusions. Whether we have lived before or not it is possible to make both arguments. It does not matter because arguments are about interacting with other people. When the moment of death comes, we must all be ready for it by ourselves and prepared for anything which will follow. This is far beyond proofs and arguments.

K2sixx, I know already that you are not gullible. I have read your other posts. Not all of them, most likely. It just seemed surprising to hear you refer to a tv show. As for the specific show, I have only seen it mocked on other tv shows. Even if it is completely real and in no way a scam, it does not prove anything to me. How can you possibly hope to prove anything to someone who does not quite trust his own senses and experiences?



k2sixx

I'm not sure how you could prove it, but you could experience it.  He explains how he does this, and essentially what he does is connect with loved ones who have died.  It is not mere coincidence that he can explain all these personal issues to these people that they involve.  But the show is as good as any book you or I could ever read about the subject... But I dont really know where I'm going with this.  I feel like I'm sticking up for a TV... blah


k2sixx

....just want to add that this man changed my outlook on the subject moreso than the readings of Buhlman, Monroe, and other writers had about the subject of the spirit carrying on.


Patty

Hey K2,

I gotta say I don't think JE is really legit. Here's a link about how he 'does it' from someone who saw him in person (ie not an edited TV show where you only see what makes him look good, and by the way the show says "For entertainment only"):

http://www.iands.org/msgboards/messages/2/724.html?931691793

BUT PLEASE don't feel offended. Stick around and keep in mind if Tom can tell a nun that her body is going to remember nothing and she is destined for oblivion, well obviously he speaks his mind, which is a good thing.

Tom, the poor kid is only like 16.

Patty

Patty

p.s. - I was afraid this thread would turn into a lot of nasty name calling and bad feelings. I almost didn't open it - but I am glad I did - I am impressed with the calm way everyone is sharing their opinion.

Jason! Cool that you can LD at will.

Patty