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Author Topic: Whats Your Proof?  (Read 31173 times)
MisterJingo
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2005, 19:27:04 »

Quote from: Ivanda
I don`t know, guys, I may be wrong, but I think that, if OBE was only our immagination or hallucination, it would be so much easier to achieve. Wink


If thats the case, wouldnt we easily be able to hallucinate anything at will? Smiley There would be no need for drugs as we could create such states ourselves.

 Look into DMT production in the brain and read upon DMT experiences, which include vibrations, astral like environments and even alien abduction experiences. One belief of mine is that DMT either creates the experience, or that DMT facilitates the passage into the astral.
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2005, 19:31:26 »

I could aslo add that a lot of the most recent gurus on AP have all had scientific leanings over mystical leanings. They happily incorporated science and AP, and most modern techniques such as binaural beats and sound and light machines (Which have had massive success in initiating OBEs) also work on the prinicible of altering the physical brain to create these experiences. So science is already within the AP sphere.
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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2005, 19:31:26 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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qbeac
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« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2005, 20:10:04 »

Hello MisterJingo and BillionNamesofGod,

BillionNamesofGod, I find perfectly reasonable when you say that if a person is already convinced of something, because that person has plenty of “personal reasons” to be convinced of that (Ex: that person has “experienced it”, it has “felt it”, etc.), why should that person want any further proof? In fact, that person does not need any further proof!

Let’s suppose I burn myself with cooking oil and it hurts me a lot. I scream! After that, I don’t need for anybody else to prove to myself that the oil was hot, because I already know it.

In this regards, I would like to refer to the three levels of validation I described in the previous page, page 5, post #6:

Level 1 validation
is only a personal level, for a single individual.
Level 2 validation is for small groups of people (Ex: family members, friends, etc.).
Level 3 validation is for the scientific community and, therefore, for all humanity.

When I talked about “Level 1 validation”, I mentioned that the different types of personal validations may be good enough validations for that person, and then added that pursuing other levels of validation, such as the Agnostic Method, it’s up to that person, depending on how sure he may be of his experiences. So, that’s a matter of personal and free choice. And that seems quite reasonable to me.

I also find it is quite reasonable what MisterJingo is saying: Let each individual decide by himself which level of validation he prefers (L1, L2, L3). MisterJingo, I totally agree with you on that.

At the same time, there are lots of people who have never had nor felt OBEs and would like to see further proof (L2 or L3). I have talked to many of them and I find that’s quite reasonable too from their perspectives.

Further more, for many reasons that I will describe some other time, I believe it would be very good to try to provide “Level 3 validation” to the scientific community. In other words, I believe it would be great if some persons who are able to have controlled OBEs, would voluntarily consider providing the scientific community with “Level 3 validation.” And the reason for it is because that could have enormous good repercussions for society in general.

qbeac.
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« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2005, 20:55:41 »

Quote from: MisterJingo
Please quote where I ever said it is nonsense. This is this kind of thing I'm trying to escape from.... (main text of the post)... Is that form of life really preferable?

Hello MisterJingo, with a few small touches, I agree with what you say in your post. qbeac.
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2005, 02:13:55 »

Quote from: MisterJingo


Please quote where I ever said it is nonsense. This is this kind of thing I'm trying to escape from. I know a lot of people who consider themselves to be occultists, or white witches or qabalists or initiates. Yet the second you mention proof they get offended and upset, like you are questioning their entire belief system. Rather than be reasonable and look at all the arguments, they get hysterical; denounce science and anyone who holds it in favour (whilst ignoring the miracles of science all around them which lets them lead long and healthy lives).


Again I can't believe I'm reading this stuff.  I don't know why you've assumed I'm occultist, white witch, qablalists, I never talk of such things, so you need to put that to rest.  It's you who's making these grand assumptions.

I would say I'm a well read scientist (with a degree in computer science), and I know the scientific methods, and spend as much time reading science magazines, forums, and journals as I do here, more so.

What I do understand is the scientific process, and I've examined it very carefully, and you should too.  You'll find the new discoveries are labeled as heracy, the peer review takes decades to resolve disputes, and scientists aren't all uniform.  One scientist may have showed how if you create parallel worlds, it solves all his computational problem, and can explain things better. His paper get's buried and igorned for many many decade, and during his time labelled a nutcase by his peers, even though nothing he says could be actually proved.  Every other scientist just regarding this as complete  nonsense, and certainly had no proof, but showing things do work out better, and the forces of the universe can be made to work, if we put in parallel worlds.  To most scientists, to believe in parallel worlds, is heracy itself, worse than believing in God.  
The maths do work out and a few cosmologists believe in parallel worlds, the majority don't.


Quote from: MisterJingo


Science is simply a methodology of producing repeatable facts in reality. That’s all it is. And its track record is pretty damn good. Because science does not follow my own belief, does not mean I will ignore it totally.
 I will give consideration to any theory regarding AP which holds some weight. For example, I have had experiences which seem to suggest AP is real. But the newly emerging facts about consciousness and the brain are very hard to ignore, so I don’t discount it and keep it as a possibility. I generally refute such things which are too ludicrous to my current understanding of reality, such as if someone stated the apple tree in my back garden is really a supercomputer and I’m living in a hologram it is creating, I would generally disbelieve them.


Well, that's it you aren't capable of taking the great mental leaps of imagination that true scientists can take, like Einstien.
You as I predicted to myself, will never believe or even consider these theories like we all live in a supercomputer.  This is actually a sound solid thought experiment, it is sound, generated by scientists who don't believe in occult mumbo jumbo.  These are sound valid theories of cosmology with no true scientist can disprove.

They are actually very plausable, if you know you physics you'll know it's too wierd to be a co-incidence. So god might as well be some super geek with a super computer, it is possible, there is no proof to disprove it isn't.
If you know something about Fractals, you will realise complex reality can be simulated with simple 4th  dimensional imaginary number maths. Yes maths with imaginary numbers. Go figure.  I don't understand imaginary maths, but I can program a computer with a Fractal - it works.

Quantum Physists can't explain most things either, God does play dice, you can't predict where things are going to be, it's all too wierd, but ** THEY JUST GET ON WITH IT * and produce cool devices like lasers and so on. The effects are predictable! But how physics particles work isn't. One scientist wins the nobel prize for proving light is a particle, and another scientist proves light is a particle and wins a nobel prize.
It appears that scientists have more open mind than you have.  How can a  light be a wave and particle at the same time? Well who cares, really? scientists don't they just change hats and produce things.  no-one to this day can prove this light thing.  But if you subscribe to parallel world theory it's quite easily explained, but you'll have no proof, but it works. It's because the light wasn't a particle or wave in the first place, that's what we get depending how we *OBSERVE* it.  It's actually a completely different multi-dimentional object - we all are. What you see in real life is just what you see and percieve, it's now how it really is. Like light humans are multi-dimensional beings. We aren't all we observe in the physical world, if you leave all your basis in the physical world, you'll never explain anything.  Even many scientists are now working in quantum consiousness - the brain is actually a quantum computer, it truly is a doorway to other dimensions. If you only take into account the Real Time zone, all you see is a human brain, dreaming or imagining.   * IT IS NOT DREAMING *.
You really should read quantum consiouness things and parallel world things, and all those grand theries on cosmology - you'll realise quantum mechanics, is a glimpse of other dimensions! It not weird, if you imagine other dimenstions, things can appear and disappear in quantum physics, they only make sense if you bring in other dimensions. So once you do, the brain is a Quantum Computer it's not just dreaming anymore.
many great scientists believe this.  Naturally at these stage of human evolution, they are labelled as heretics. THey are not.  They are right.
It will take many thousands of years for scientists to agree.


Roger Penrose a respected scientist believes in Quantum Consiousness.
99% of other scientists probably don't.  He's regarded as a heretic.
But he's pretty much spot on and in time his peers will see.

http:// http://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/penrose/penr.htm  

So as time goes by you'll find more and more nonsense in science to you, science to you will just might as be occult mumbo jumbo, it really is, infact to you, that's what you can't see. Infact what you can't see Astral Projection is more touchable and experienceable.  A scientist can neve see his parallel world or enter it - you can enter yours, and you can't see how amazing that is, you have things scientists would kill for, and you can't see it, you are wasting it. That is my sorrow.

well you are wrong,  you are so wrong you don't know it. Science is not about repeatable facts in reality, they are still proving Einstiens theory, and proof has only recently come, and repeatable.  Before then the maths was so elegant, and clearly undisputable, but it's not proof, that came much much later.   "Einstien said imagination is more important than knowledge", he is right, every theory starts in someones mind, Einstien by simply assuming light travelled the same speed everywhere with *THOUGHT* experiments, came with startling conclusions.
So Einstien knew very much how important the imagination was, more so than you. Every new scientific idea starts off in someones imagination. Proof comes much later.

Only recently were they proved, but scientists could not really prove them or disprove his maths.   This is so of Parallel worlds and all the crazy cosmology theories being floated about.  They really have no proof, and they never will. Cosmology is crazier than Astral Projection, but they are quite happy to enter this imaginary worlds and imagine what causes them.
That's what a true scientist does.  You not so.
Even Robert Monroe and complete skeptic and scientist opened his mind, and remained a scientist throughout - he just explored and looked for answers, you are looking for answers where you won't find them.
He created a whole Instutite and respected as a scientist and skeptic.
Now, if you are so lucky enough to have so many OBEs and you dismiss them so readily, do you have the open mind and character to writes books, explore and create Institutes like Monroe did as a skeptic?  I think not.
 
Quote from: MisterJingo


 Just because I question the experience does not mean I am questioning your experiences. If your demand of proof means a single projection tells you everything you need to know then that is fine. I am looking for something more. A million lifetimes could be wasted by getting bogged down in dogma and ignoring the underlying source.
 I agree that it is possible to be blinded by science, but at the other end of the spectrum, I believe it is possible to get bogged down by belief systems - becoming caught in an illusion of unfounded belief.
 I believe one of the reason we are on Earth is to learn critical thinking, and to totally throw it away because what it suggests upsets what we want to belief – that is losing sight of the goal before even setting out on the journey.


Hey this is all about you trust, me you are the own questioning your experiences, I'm quite happy I know the truth.

You demand something more? You will never find it, stop wasting your time and move on.  You still don't understand why.  One scientist believes in parallel worlds the other doesn't. They can't prove it either way.
They don't waste time trying to disprove each other's beliefs. They get on with thier version of events and get on with it.  You aren't providing anything valuable, but being a hardened skeptic and staying in that camp, it's you who doesn't have the open mind, even though the experiences are starting you right in the face.

If you think you or anyone can find proof for the whole world to see, in your lifetime, or many lifetimes over, you really are foolish and can't see the wood for the trees.  Trust me it will never happen in your life time, so stop fretting over it. Get it and move and make a contribution to the field that can be laid bare in history for future generations to admire.

Quote from: MisterJingo


 If the astral truly exists (which I believe it does) and the physical is part of the astral, then surely scientific discoveries will hold meaning to all areas of the astral? We might not be at a sufficient level to comprehend everything, or have the technology to detect the astral yet, but if it is there, we will eventually detect it with science.
 For all the evil we attribute to science, without we would literally be living for about 30 years in very unhygienic conditions with no education and bogged down with massive superstition. Is that form of life really preferable?



Why do you believe the Astral exists? You have no proof you can give me.   So why do you believe? I know you can not show me proof, so what makes you make such a grand conclusion?

As I said before, read up on your science, a flatlander will never see, feel or touch the 3rd dimension, he can only imagine it, he well never have proof. We will never have proof of the 4th dimention, you simply have to take that leap of faith. It will always just appear in your mind.


I hope you can get a glimse of what I'm trying to say. One day you'll wake  and see the world in a different light.
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2005, 02:13:55 »



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MisterJingo
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2005, 03:30:25 »

Quote from: BillionNamesofGod


Again I can't believe I'm reading this stuff.  I don't know why you've assumed I'm occultist, white witch, qablalists, I never talk to such things, so you need to put that to rest.  It's you who's making this grand assumptions.
I would say I'm a well read scientist, and I know the scientific methods, and spend as much time reading science magazines, forums, and journals as I do here, more so.
What I do understand is the scientific process, and I've examined it very carefully, and you should you.  You'll find the new discoveries are labeled as heracy, the peer review takes decades to resolve disputes, and scientists aren't all uniform.  One scientist may have showed how if you create parallel worlds, it solves all his computational problem, and can explain things better.  Every other scientist just regarding this as complete  nonsense, and certainly had no proof, but showing things do work out better, and the forces of the universe can be made to work, if we put in parallel worlds.  To most scientists, to believe in parallel worlds, is heracy itself, worse than believing in God.  
The maths do work out and a few cosmologists believe in parallel worlds, the majority don't.


 I did not assume you are any of those things or make any grand assumptions, you are simply misinterpreting my words, or just choosing to not understand.
 To date, the vast bulk of all written information on AP exists within the occult domain, and so to all extents and purposes, most people consider AP to be an occult art (even if you do not), that is what I was getting at.
 I also know the scientific process because I am actually a scientist and so use it frequently.
 What specific research are you talking about when regarding parallel worlds? There have been many purely subjective theories which state there are multiple worlds/parallel dimensions based upon either misinterpretation of quantum/M theory or our lack of understanding of the current result sets.
 The reason there is so much disagreement in these fields is because the vast majority of the science to date is purely theoretical, it has no empirical evidence to back it up. And in such circumstances there should be such disagreement to ensure we do not believe anything with no proof.
 Maths can really be made to fit anything. There are mathematical models of 4-11+ dimensions which incorporate parallel worlds, but they are purely math with no supporting evidence – so they are discounted until evidence is either found to support those models or discount them.


Quote

Well, that's it you aren't capable of taking the great mental leaps of imagination that true scientists can take, like Einstien.
You as I predicted to myself, will never believe or even consider these theries like we all live in a supercomputer.  This is actually a sound solid thought experiment, it is sound, generated by scientists who don't believe in occult mumbo jumbo.  These are sound valid theories of cosmology with no true scientist can disprove.
They are actually very plausable, if you know you physics you'll know it's too wierd to be a co-incidence. So god might as well be some super geek with a super computer, it is possible, there is no proof to disprove it isn't.
If you know something about Fractals, you will realise complex reality can be simulated with simple 4th  dimensional imaginary number maths. Yes maths with imaginary numbers. Go figure.  I don't understand imaginary maths, but I can program a computer with a Fractal - it works.
Quantum Physists can't explain most things either, God does play dice, you can't predict where things are going to be, it's all too wierd, but ** THEY JUST GET ON WITH IT * and produce cool devices like lasers and so on. The effects are predictable! But how physics particles work isn't.

So as time goes by you'll find more and more nonsense in science to you, science to you will just might as be occult mumbo jumbo, it really is, infact to you, that's what you can't see. Infact what you can't see Astral Projection is more touchable and experienceable.  A scientist can neve see his parallel world or enter it - you can enter yours, and you can't see how amazing that is, you have things scientists would kill for, and you can't see it, you are wasting it. That is my sorrow.

well you are wrong,  you are so wrong you don't know it. Science is not about repeatable facts in reality, they are still proving Einstiens theory, and proof has only recently come, and repeatable.  Before then the maths was so elegant, and clearly undisputable, but it's not proof, that came much much later.   "Einstien said imagination is more important than knowledge", he is right, every theory starts in someones mind, Einstien by simply assuming light travelled the same speed everywhere with *THOUGHT* experiments, came with startling conclusions.
So Einstien knew very much how important the imagination was, more so than you. Every new scientific idea starts off in someones imagination. Proof comes much later.

Only recently were they proved, but scientists could not really prove them or disprove his maths.   This is so of Parallel worlds and all the crazy cosmology theories being floated about.  They really have no proof, and they never will. Cosmology is crazier than Astral Projection, but they are quite happy to enter this imaginary worlds and imagine what causes them.
That's what a true scientist does.  You not so.
Even Robert Monroe and complete skeptic and scientist opened his mind, and remained a scientist throughout - he just explored and looked for answers, you are looking for answers where you won't find them.
He created a whole Instutite and respected as a scientist and skeptic.
Now, if you are so lucky enough to have so many OBEs and you dismiss them so readily, do you have the open mind and character to writes books, explore and create Institutes like Monroe did as a skeptic?  I think not.


Please show me where Einstein made any great mental leap. He simply used theories which were already suggesting relativity and places them together. Yes he was the person who did it, but if he hadn’t, the data and research which already existed would have given us such theories through a different route anyway.
 Einstein was in fact very set in his ways and refuted the suggestions of quantum theory, spending the last years of his life as virtual recluse trying to create a theory of everything which didn’t require QM.
 I will consider such theories of living in a super computer is they held up to scrutiny, I was giving an absolutely absorbed example and yet you chose to misinterpret me again.
 You say you know the scientific theory very well, which would suggest your grasp of logic is impeccable, yet you haven’t used any logic in your reply to me. You chose parts of what I say, misinterpret them, and then rave off on tangents.
 Quantum physicists don’t actually just get on with it. What scientific journals do you read? The last journal I read earlier this week was littered with articles about scientists who tried recreate a publish experiment, failed and so refuted the findings. This is the method of science.
 Regarding the predictability of the physics they work with, on a great enough scale they produce probability curves which allow them to become predictable. Our use of quantum theory in every day electronics shows these sciences can and are predictable.
 I admit there is a lot of quantum theory which looks strange to our logic, but that is due to us not having the mathematic knowledge to solve such problems yet. If you know of string theory, then you would know that the mathematics we are currently using is just an estimation of the equations we believe we need to solve problems in that field. A lack of understanding does not mean impossible to understand, or to make predictable.

Quote

Even Robert Monroe and complete skeptic and scientist opened his mind, and remained a scientist throughout - he just explored and looked for answers, you are looking for answers where you won't find them.
He created a whole Instutite and respected as a scientist and skeptic.
Now, if you are so lucky enough to have so many OBEs and you dismiss them so readily, do you have the open mind and character to writes books, explore and create Institutes like Monroe did as a skeptic?  I think not.


 You contradict yourself above. Monroe remained a sceptic of his experiences for a very long time. And when he did move his belief to the astral was where people went on death, he used science to attempt to explain this new area. Not only that, he used scientific theory to allow others to experience this area too.
 He did not at any point use belief, or set aside the scientific principles, and even the Monroe institute now tell people to not act as if beliefs are solid fact (knowns).
 If  could add anything new to the science of AP I would happily write a book, and if I had the funding I would happily open such an institute as it is something very close to my own heart.  

Quote

Hey this is all about you trust, me you are the own questioning your experiences, I'm quite happy I know the truth.

You demand something more? You will never find it, stop wasting your time and move on.  You still don't understand why.  One scientist believes in parallel worlds the other doesn't. They can't prove it either way.
They don't waste time trying to disprove each other's beliefs. They get on with thier version of events and get on with it.  You aren't providing anything valuable, but being a hardened skeptic and staying in that camp, it's you who doesn't have the open mind, even though the experiences are starting you right in the face.

If you think you or anyone can find proof for the whole world to see, in your lifetime, or many lifetimes over, you really are foolish and can't see the wood for the trees.  Trust me it will never happen in your life time, so stop fretting over it. Get it and move and make a contribution to the field that can be laid bare in history for future generations to admire.




 If any scientist ever thought “I cant prove this in my life time, so I’ll just give up” then we would be living in a primitive state still. Because something might not be proved in the near future does not mean people cannot set the ground work for it.
 As I have said before, people have been experiencing AP throughout  the history of mankind (evidence can be found in all cultures). Where has that history of pure experience and not attempting to research the mechanics of the experience gotten us? Absolutely nowhere. We know little more about the AP experience then man did 2000 years ago.

 Please show me where my mind is closed? I have experienced many things in my life time, from the mystical to the drug induced. I am open minded to all things which come my way. My definition of open minded is to actually keep an open mind, not like you just believe what you want as it’s preferable to your ego and belief systems. If I was an hardened sceptic I would refute even the possibility of AP, yet I accept that it might be a real possibility. The proof I seek is to the nature of AP itself, which takes into account the nature of mind and reality.

What truth do you know? Do you know that all truth is purely subjective and relative to the observer? Or do you believe you hold a greater truth? The truth I search for is one which can be consistently experienced by many people. The AP scene to date has little to no consistency. Even the leading AP gurus frequently degree on all aspects of the AP experience.

Quote

Why do you believe the Astral exists? You have no proof you can give me.   So why do you believe? I know you can not show me proof, so what makes you make such a grand conclusion?

As I said before, read up on your science, a flatlander will never see, feel or touch the 3rd dimension, he can only imagine it, he well never have proof. We will never have proof of the 4th dimention, you simply have to take that leap of faith. It will always just appear in your mind.


I hope you can get a glimse of what I'm trying to say. One day you'll wake  and see the world in a different light.


 The proof I have regards experiments in the physical which suggest the astral might have some existence. These experiments have involved 3rd parties who had no knowledge of my experiments and independently verified the results of my experiments.
 These experiments show a possibility of the astral being more than imagination, and so I have an open mind on the subject. I once did really believe in the astral, but I realised that was being closed minded.
 If we take the 4th dimension as time, we already have proof of its existence, not only that, there has been interesting discussion in scientific journals (which you no doubted know about as you read them) discussing the possibility of time being a state of entropy on a negative curve. This has major implications in regards to causality, free will and determinism.

 The question of the astral is much more then just experiencing something and claiming it as fact. The ultimate truth we can currently hope to find is one we will find on death. We either continue to exist, or we don’t. But even this is open to other possibilities such as consiciousnes existing in the brain at the point of death due to extreme time dilation. What I mean by this is when the body dies, awarness could exist in the brain and to the 'dead' person, they would continue to exist for a possible very long period of time in their imagiation (Astral). I know there is evidence of deep brain activity a long time after the time of death.

 You have strongly declared that science will never understand the astral. What have you got to back up such a claim? You can't quote history (unless its an example from the past decade or so) as the world and society has changed dramatically from an age of people being burnt at the stake for heresy.
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2005, 04:25:57 »

this is getting way out of hand... my advice is this, plan and simple... and yes this is directed to Qbeac... pratice obe, work at it, read and learn from the people in these forums, coduct your own experiments and draw your own conclusions...

the other like MasterJingo, Mendel, Major Tom have been more than helpfull, but it seems all you want to do is pursue this to argument. they have given their testimony and now its time for you to step up and learn the how to project and run your own scientific proof..

i saw no more...:)

tvos
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2005, 05:38:36 »

Quote from: the voice of silence
this is getting way out of hand... my advice is this, plan and simple... and yes this is directed to Qbeac... pratice obe, work at it, read and learn from the people in these forums, coduct your own experiments and draw your own conclusions...

Hello Tvos,

You say that what I need to do is to practice myself, but it seems to me we are not understanding each other very well. Therefore, I would like to clarify something important about that:

I do believe these experiences are real. I have had many of them myself and my intention is to keep practicing them. I cannot control them yet, but I insist, “I do already believe they are real.”

However, the reason for my interest in obtaining scientific proof (or “Level 3 validation”) is not for my own satisfaction. Among other reasons because I already have my own very much satisfactory “Level 1 validation” and I do not need any more “Level 1 nor Level 3 validation” for myself. What I am trying to do is to find “Level 3 validation” for the scientific community, for them, not for me.

And please, let me explain you why I believe that is SO important to do:

In the case AP and OBE are real experiences (and insist, I too believe they are real for different reasons), and considering that nowadays just about everybody can have easy accesses to this “new” knowledge via the modern means of communication (specially via Internet, forums, etc.), it seems to me that we may be on the verge of an evolutionary change in society (or an evolutionary leap forward, and I mean a positive change).

Now then, in order for that change to happen, or to proceed, or to not be blocked, or to happen with a greater speed, or to consolidate itself, in my opinion, it is necessary to obtain empirical proof, or scientific proof, or conclusive proof that these experiences are real and not imaginary.

For better or worse, nowadays, in the year 2005, the scientific community has the key to facilitate or to promote that change, or the contrary, to block it or delay it. Because if the scientific community officially validates these experiences, that will open the door for the public recognition and acceptance of these experiences by the rest of humanity, and vice versa.

The problem nowadays is that the type of validation that many of us have is only “Level 1 validation”, and even though that may be totally sufficient for ourselves, it is not sufficient for other people, for MILLIONS of them! In fact, “Level 1 validation” may be a very weak type of validation for many people who have not experienced or are not too sure of these experiences. Many of them will tend to think they are only dreams or hallucinations.

But “Level 3 validation” would be a completely different story, among other reasons because by appearing first in prestigious scientific journals, it could also appear afterwards in nation wide news casts (TV, radio, newspaper, etc.).

For instance, imagine that tomorrow a prestigious medical or scientific journal (Ex: The Lancet, NATURE, Science, etc.) would publish a sound scientific article providing scientific evidence or even proof of the reality of these experiences (that article would be called “Level 3 validation”). A few weeks/months later, the CNN would probably also want to talk about the article that has already been “published” in NATURE, but not as something “subjective” coming from somebody’s personal testimony, but as something “scientifically proven”.

Well, in that case, I bet you the next day/week/month, the libraries will notice an increase in the sales of books to learn how to do astral projection. Why? Because a lot of people, knowing now that these experiences are real and not imaginary (because NATURE and the CNN tells them so, not us), will want to know more about it.

This situation is kind of similar to what happened in Galileo’s time: first a great deal of opposition and rejection about his new observations and hypothesis, but later on, and as the evidence kept piling up, it was simply impossible to deny it.

But, in order to obtain “Level 3 validation”, somebody needs to provide it, and right now, only people who have a certain amount of control doing AP or OBE can do that.

qbeac.
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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2005, 06:17:19 »

Hello MisterJingo and BillionNamesofGod,

I am also a scientist, and I would like to give my personal opinion about this discussion you are having:

To discuss this subject from many different points of view is fine and it should be done. But, in my opinion, philosophical discussions, or scientific-philosophical discussions, or even totally scientific discussions “alone” but without “scientific experiments” may lead us nowhere. We could be discussing this subject within those parameters for thousand of years and we would not move a single centimetre from where we are today, because in those terms there are tons of very good reasons to say this and also to say that.

Therefore, in my opinion, the only solution to move forward is to do the experiments.

Nowadays, modern science has plenty of new technological tools by which to study these types of experiences. Many different types of scientific experiments could be done to obtain scientific data about these experiences. So, let’s do the experiments first and then we’ll talk about their results. In fact, in the Spanish science forum we have thought of around 10 different scientific approaches to study this matter, some are very simple and others are very complex ones. Only one example (there are many more): by studying hypothermic cardiac arrest patients:

Pam Reynolds’ NDE due to a hypothermic cardiac arrest operation:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Now then, in our opinion, the Agnostic Method approach could be a very good first step in that type of research. The Agnostic Method is an excellent starting point to research these types of experiences because it has two main advantages:

1) It is extremely simple. Anybody can do it in its own home without having to use complicated technology. People can easily “understand it”. Also, people can easily “practice it”. Reading only “two words” in a paper is one of the most “simple” and at the same time most “reliable” tests you could do while having an OBE (at least for some projectors). So, it is very important to point out that from the standpoint of science “it also has to be reliable”: the probabilities of guessing by chance should be as small as possible. For better or worse, the scientific community does not accept subjectivity as a valid Level 3 validation.

2) It is extremely reliable. If you compare its probabilistic calculations with other methods, you’ll see that it is the most reliable one. It’s simplicity to reliability ratio is one of the highest one. Further more, scientists know that mathematical calculations don’t lie! And that is a very strong argument from the standpoint of the scientific community.

We also tried to make the Agnostic Method as easy as possible because the easiest it is, the more people are going to try it. The more complex it is (computer programs, etc.), the less people will use it. We tried to find the best possible simplicity to reliability ratio because our goal is to find the best projectors (screening procedure) that could later on do “Level 3 validation” experiments if they so desire.

So, please, I will ask this question one more time to all of you:

Have any of you already tried to read words while having an AP or OBE? In your opinion, do you think the hints we have designed in the Agnostic Method to read the “real” words and to avoid “false positives” could be of any help?

Thanks. qbeac.
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2005, 08:29:43 »

Quote from: the voice of silence

the other like MasterJingo, Mendel, Major Tom have been more than helpfull, but it seems all you want to do is pursue this to argument. they have given their testimony and now its time for you to step up and learn the how to project and run your own scientific proof..

i saw no more...Smiley

tvos


 Hey tvos,
 It is verging on an argument, but not a serious one Smiley My only problem here is having a long history of AP and still questioning it's validity seems to annoy billion, so I've just been arguing points back. If all that occurs is the regurgitation of statements with no progress on either side (ie none is willing to accept what the other says) i'd happily stop as it would be getting nowhere and wasting everyones time.
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2005, 08:56:41 »

/sigh to all the people who think physical-reality validation tests during OBE prove anything at all...

What it proves is nothing more than that extra-sensory perception exists which most anyone will already admit to. I am not saying OBEs are all in the brain- in fact I believe exactly the opposite. However, these tests do not prove by any full-proof means that an OBE is real or fake or anything inbetween as you would perceive it.

It could be said the proof you're looking for does not exist, and yet we each feel that our personal experiences (whatever they may be) have lent us the proof we need to validate our personal beliefs (whatever those may be as well). The truth is there will never be solid proof, there will always be cracks that ask "but what if?" There are only possibilities, and our faith towards choosing from them.
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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2005, 11:31:03 »

The question is this: Is this going to be once again a debate about proof that gets nowhere or are we willing to make some progress?

So maybe anybody that is not interested in the proof question because he thinks its nonsense should probably not posting arguments here, that haven been said a hundred times.

I think the things are quite simple actually, just reads qbeac's posts about the 3levels of validation and why he thinks thats important. I agree with what he says and think it is an great and important task to try to find ways to proof OBE's on Level 3. Now I do really not understand what kind of problem some of you have with the "proof-question" I really don't get it.

I seems to me that most great astral-explorers found this subject important. Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, Stephen Laberge, and also Frank seemed to think that it is a subject worth of consideration. Simply because a true scientist finds experiments and ideas to validate or to reject theories vital.

So why not make something constructive here? why not pool our knowledge together and try to make some progress?
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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2005, 13:48:00 »

Quote from: Tombo
The question is this: Is this going to be once again a debate about proof that gets nowhere or are we willing to make some progress?

So maybe anybody that is not interested in the proof question because he thinks its nonsense should probably not posting arguments here, that haven been said a hundred times.

I think the things are quite simple actually, just reads qbeac's posts about the 3levels of validation and why he thinks thats important. I agree with what he says and think it is an great and important task to try to find ways to proof OBE's on Level 3. Now I do really not understand what kind of problem some of you have with the "proof-question" I really don't get it.

I seems to me that most great astral-explorers found this subject important. Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, Stephen Laberge, and also Frank seemed to think that it is a subject worth of consideration. Simply because a true scientist finds experiments and ideas to validate or to reject theories vital.

So why not make something constructive here? why not pool our knowledge together and try to make some progress?

Hi Tombo, I totally agree with you.

qbeac.
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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2005, 13:50:02 »

Hello everybody,
Hello Draege,

My position in this debate is clear: I believe the experiments can be done and should be done, for the benefit of human kind. And I call upon other people who may think the same way to take action in the same direction, and to do it as a team, all of us together.

This statement of yours, in my opinion, might not necessarily be so, it could be so or it could be not: “…The truth is there will never be solid proof, there will always be cracks that ask "but what if?... (*1)." And it could be not so for many reasons, among other ones because nobody can know how things are going to develop in the future. Nobody can foresee the future and I don’t believe the future is written. I believe the future is in our hands, so it’s up to us today what type of future we get tomorrow.

I have personally decided to work for the future which is described in the Howard Storm’s NDE (a spiritual one), and I would be glad to joint efforts with all those persons who may have the same goal. This is his NDE:

Howard Storm's near-death experience
http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

The Therapy of Love
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Note: see also post #1, pag. 3:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=20
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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2005, 13:50:27 »

Hello everybody,
Hello Draege,

On the other hand, and as I said in my previous posts: “in the Spanish science forum we have thought of around 10 different scientific approaches to study this matter…” For instance, science does not deny Pam Reynolds NDE. Serious scientists simply says that a single study and under the conditions the Pam Reynolds event took place is not enough. Therefore, other similar studies should be performed applying several security and control mechanisms that were not applied in the Pam Reynolds case simply because they had not thought about them or were not well prepared for them. Dr. Pim van Lommel (and many other scientists) clearly says the same thing in his article published in The Lancet: “more studies need to be done.”

This is probably similar to saying to Galileo:

“Ok, you have seen those small planets moving in the wrong direction, well, let us also look through our own telescopes and make sure you did not make a mistake, or that your telescope was not out of focus.”
 
Those types of hypothermic cardiac arrests operations are a new and modern technique, and there are going to be many more operations in the future in which the appropriate control and security measures could perfectly be set in place in advance to try to provide conclusive proof of the anomaly I have talked about in many of my previous posts (I refer to them). Because in case such a big anomaly was to be confirmed, they would have to change the scientific text books.

If anybody would like to learn more about this particular subject, just read the complete Dr. Pim van Lommel article in The Lancet (a pioneer article in history!) and the other one titled “Reply to Shermer” in which he explains this whole thing in detail:

- Dr. Pim van Lommel’s The Lancet study 2001 about NDEs (complete text): http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
- Dr. Pim van Lommel. Reply to Shermer (Please, read this article CAREFULLY): http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm
- Pam Reynolds' NDE (hypothermic cardiac arrest)
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

So, in summary, that statement of yours (see previous post, note (*1)) should not necessarily be what’s going to happen in the future.

I call upon all people who would like to work towards a “different and better future” to joint efforts in that other direction.

Un saludo, qbeac.
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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2005, 13:50:53 »

Hello MisterJingo, I totally agree with what you say: “…If all that occurs is the regurgitation of statements with no progress on either side…”

As far as I am concerned, I have already explained my personal position about this matter and in this forum. I would like to add that in Spain we are now working with a very much experimented OBEer (or APer could you say?) who totally agrees with the arguments I have been defending in all these posts. We are going to proceed with the experiments and hopefully reach “Level 3 validation.”

Finally, I would simply like to refer to all the previous posts I have already posted, and in relation to scientific proof, specially to Post #2 in page 4 of these thread. Let me just quote a brief excerpt of it:

"In other words, that would be a good enough accomplishment “to begin with”, in my personal opinion. That would imply, for instance, considering having to change or review current scientific textbooks concerning human consciousness! (Ex: psychiatric books, psychology books, neuroscience books, etc.)

"However, for right now and with this first experiments we do not pretend to say that "OBEs as such are real" (meaning getting out of your body), but we do pretend to say that there was a transference of information from the target (the paper with the two words written on it) to the brain (or mind) of the OBEer which should not have happened, because it would be IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen according to current physical laws.

And I will add: ant that’s a BIG deal for modern science, and scientists know it.

In fact, the Spanish Science forum is a good example of it and you can check it out for yourself, because over there, as scientists have had the opportunity of examining more in depth the serious data, they have gradually turned from being quite sceptical at the beginning, to now being expecting results. That's a big change!

I encourage all those of you who may think the same way we do, to do the same thing we are doing in Spain (do the experiments), because it is important that somebody does it.

Thanks a lot. qbeac.
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« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2005, 02:57:25 »

Quote from: qbeac
Hello MisterJingo and BillionNamesofGod,

Level 1 validation is only a personal level, for a single individual.
Level 2 validation is for small groups of people (Ex: family members, friends, etc.).
Level 3 validation is for the scientific community and, therefore, for all humanity.



Thanks for your post this makes  lot of sense and put's perspective on the whole issue.

Basically,  Level 1 Validation is good enough for me

For Master Jingo, he needs Level 3 Validation to make Astral Projection real for him, no matter what he experiences.


Hence the conflict, if we agree on the point above everything is fine.

The trouble arisis when I think Why does MisterJingo Want Level 3 validation?  All the great Astral Projectors don't, I mean do we really need it.
I've thought about this for  a long time, and concluded it's a waste of time.
We will never have Level 3 Validation in our lifetimes, and I understand clearly why, the reasons why, are way out there, equal to saying " I believe in UFO, crop circles".


It's like :

Billion: I believe in ghosts, I don't need any proof, or will waste time in proof, as we'll never proof ghosts in my lifetime for sure.

Jingo: I don't believe in Ghosts, I think I've seen one, and it did look like a Ghost, but until all scientists have 100% proof, and everyone believes in Ghosts, I won't accept that Ghosts exist.

See?  We've both seen Ghosts, but completely different stance!

This is where we are.  So the problem is "how to we provide level 3 validation for Ghosts?"

The answer to me is simple, we won't.  Ghosts exist in a parallel dimension  we can't touch while awake.  So my belief is simple, it's a waste of time trying to find Level 3 Validation for Ghosts.

I respect people who want to proof ghosts, and all these GhostHunters, they will contribute, but no proof will emerge in their lifetimes.

I mean what shocks me is such a massive difference in opinion on two people on the same path of New Age knowledge.

But I agree with others, It's time to understand where we stand so we can move forwards.

So What am I?  I believe in Ghosts. I don't need proof.


Jingo, is a Astral Projection type Ghost Hunter.  Rather than proving Ghosts, he wants to Proof Astral Projection.  This is a very respectful professiona and Goal in Life.  I respect and understand it and will help.

But it's not my focus, it does no hinder me from exploring the unknown.

Ok I'm being harsh, I want MisterJingo to believe and just get on with it, and no waste time on proof, this is a very selfish atitutude, I admit, and do apologise, I just there are better things he could do, that could add to the body of believers.

But hey I respect your position, I  hope you respect mine, just have to agree to understand each other Mind Sets and belief systems, and move on.   My opinion is simple, I think Level 3 Validation is a waste of time.

But I respect any person who wishes to take this giant on, as they will indeed spend their whole life dealing with skeptic types, hardly fun!


wink
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« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2005, 03:23:14 »

Hi Billion,

 Thanks for the thought out post. I agree with everything you said. In my past I didn't require anything more than level one proof. I was pretty open with my experiences and have spent many years arguing my point to complete sceptics. Perhaps having to argue my experiences in a more objective manner has led me to seek a greater proof for myself. And perhaps I read too many scientific journals and so try to squeeze all my experiences into such a frame work.
 I’m also perhaps slightly guilty of being argumentative, and coming across more a sceptic in my posts then I actually am embarassed It's a bad habit of mine  wink
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« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2005, 04:22:43 »

Quote from: MisterJingo
Hi Billion,

 Thanks for the thought out post. I agree with everything you said. In my past I didn't require anything more than level one proof. I was pretty open with my experiences and have spent many years arguing my point to complete sceptics. Perhaps having to argue my experiences in a more objective manner has led me to seek a greater proof for myself. And perhaps I read too many scientific journals and so try to squeeze all my experiences into such a frame work.
 I’m also perhaps slightly guilty of being argumentative, and coming across more a sceptic in my posts then I actually am embarassed It's a bad habit of mine  wink


no not really, its natural human instinct, I'm the one who should apologise.
It is one great mother of a giant level 3 thinking, I admit it's very hard.

I can't honestly see how we can do level 3, so I'm still thinking... so much it hurts, and I give up !!!!!!!!!
I admire you for having the balls to go for it.


wink
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« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2005, 06:13:51 »

Quote from: BillionNamesofGod
Quote from: MisterJingo
Hi Billion,

 Thanks for the thought out post. I agree with everything you said. In my past I didn't require anything more than level one proof. I was pretty open with my experiences and have spent many years arguing my point to complete sceptics. Perhaps having to argue my experiences in a more objective manner has led me to seek a greater proof for myself. And perhaps I read too many scientific journals and so try to squeeze all my experiences into such a frame work.
 I’m also perhaps slightly guilty of being argumentative, and coming across more a sceptic in my posts then I actually am embarassed It's a bad habit of mine  wink

no not really, its natural human instinct, I'm the one who should apologise.
It is one great mother of a giant level 3 thinking, I admit it's very hard.

I can't honestly see how we can do level 3, so I'm still thinking... so much it hurts, and I give up !!!!!!!!!
I admire you for having the balls to go for it.

wink

Hello BillionNamesofGod,

Thanks for your comments. With all the things you have explained, now I think I understand your position better. In fact, I believe we may have some very important common opinions that perhaps we had not realized before. For instance, in page 5, Post #9 you said to people in general, and especially to skeptics who have never tried AP nor felt all the good sensations and feelings related to it:

“Wake up and smell the roses, it's not about proof.”

Let me say something to you: I do agree with you on that statement 100%, because ultimately, it is not about proof, it is about smelling the roses.

Therefore, I believe we will probably also agree on the following thing, and please, correct me if I am wrong:

You, BillionNamesofGod, would like for people to learn how to astral project so that they too can smell the roses.


Is that correct? Is that the way you think or not? Did I understand you correctly?

Let me now give you my opinion about that sentence:

Me, qbeac, would also like for people to learn how to astral project so that they too can smell the roses.

Do we agree on that specific issue so far, or not?

Please, if you could answer that question, we’ll go from there, because I would like to complete my argument.

Thanks. qbeac.
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« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2005, 21:59:25 »

Quote from: qbeac


Therefore, I believe we will probably also agree on the following thing, and please, correct me if I am wrong:

You, BillionNamesofGod, would like for people to learn how to astral project so that they too can smell the roses.


Is that correct? Is that the way you think or not? Did I understand you correctly?

Let me now give you my opinion about that sentence:

Me, qbeac, would also like for people to learn how to astral project so that they too can smell the roses.

Do we agree on that specific issue so far, or not?

Please, if you could answer that question, we’ll go from there, because I would like to complete my argument.

Thanks. qbeac.


Yes, that's right I agree with this, and what you say, so yes!

There's many ways to achieve this objective, the hardest of all is start from level 3, and then use that. It's far easier in comparison to help them to smell the roses.

It's like skydiving, you can tell someone what it's like, and they might want some kind of proof.  Well, you'd say, well I'll teach you how to sky-dive then you'll see.

It's easier to experience than proof.  So the problem then boils down to how to do teach a skeptic to have a Astral Projection Type experience that questions his nature of reality.

Us non-natural projectors, have to work hard to have a OBE, so a skeptic it's going to be hard.

Interesting question though.  What type of experience can a skeptic have, that will make them question their view of reality?
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« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2005, 01:07:23 »

Quote from: BillionNamesofGod
Yes, that's right I agree with this, and what you say, so yes!

There's many ways to achieve this objective, the hardest of all is start from level 3, and then use that. It's far easier in comparison to help them to smell the roses.

It's like skydiving, you can tell someone what it's like, and they might want some kind of proof.  Well, you'd say, well I'll teach you how to sky-dive then you'll see.

It's easier to experience than proof.  So the problem then boils down to how to do teach a skeptic to have a Astral Projection Type experience that questions his nature of reality.

Us non-natural projectors, have to work hard to have a OBE, so a skeptic it's going to be hard.

Interesting question though.  What type of experience can a skeptic have, that will make them question their view of reality?

Hello BillionNamesofGod,

According to what you say, I believe we have exactly the same final goal: We both would like for people to have the opportunity to climb the same mountain so that they all could smell the roses waiting for them at the top. We would simply like to invite them to have a very nice experience, just like if you invite somebody to a party. Correct so far?

The question now is this one: Which is the best path to the top?

Well, I don’t think there is only one path. I think there are several ones, and each person may decide which one he/she prefers. What we could do perhaps is to pave different paths, present them to people, and let each person decide which one suits him the most. So, this is an open debate and all constructive ideas will be welcome.

Let me give you my personal opinion about a “possible good path” that could lead many people to the top, or at least help them getting to the top. Maybe I’m wrong with this idea, I am not sure, but please, let me explain you what I have in mind, and I will also remain open to constructive criticism, because to me, this is a joint effort, team work.

In my opinion, conclusive or empirical proof (if we can get it) is not the final goal at all! It is only a temporary tool that might help or lead some people to reach the final goal: to smell the roses.

But before we proceed, I think we should define several important terms.

I will base my argument in three general concepts:

1) Credibility of the speaker. Speaker = person who has an OBE or AP.
2) Subjectivity of the matter. Matter = the OBE or AP phenomenon itself.
3) Viewing figures. It refers to the people who have not smelled the roses yet.

Let’s suppose we have the following two hypothetical scenarios:

1) qbeac sends this message to the world: People in the world, please, listen to me, I have something very important to tell you and I am telling you the truth: I assure you OBE and AP experiences are real and they are also very fruitful, enjoyable, etc.

2) Several prestigious scientific journals (Ex: Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.), plus several important TV news programs (CNN, NBC, ABC, BBC, etc.) say: The results of a recent scientific study about OBE which has been published in “so and so” medical journal, convincingly show these experiences might be real and not imaginary, etc. (* See foro MIGUI, dice example).

Ok, let’s now analyze those two hypothetical scenarios according to the above parameters: credibility, subjectivity and viewing figures. And please, bare in mind scenario number 2 would only be a first step in the path to the top of the mountain.

Please, what do you think will happen with that analysis?

Chao. qbeac.

P.S. In my next post I will include several other parameters that I think will be useful for this discussion.

(*) This point would require further explanations, but if somebody would like to take a look at the "dice example", see Math Foro MIGUI. Mathematical calculations of guessing by chance a random number:
http://foro.migui.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1119
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« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2005, 01:07:49 »

Hello everybody,
Hello BillionNamesofGod,

The purpose of this post is simply to give a list of definitions of different concepts taken from the Wikipedia. I believe these definitions could help us with this debate. If you wish, please, just take a quick look at them and then we will continue with the debate.

- List of scientific journals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_journals#General_science

- Impact Factor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor
Brief excerpt: “Impact Factor is a measure of importance of scientific journals.”

- Page view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_views
Brief excerpt: “A Page view is generally defined as a request to load a single page of an Internet site.”

- Prime time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_time
Brief excerpt: “Prime time is the block of time with the most viewers and is generally where television networks and local stations reap much of their advertising revenues.”

- Nielsen Ratings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_Ratings
Brief excerpt: “Nielsen's ratings calculation, also called Cume Rating (or "Reach"), measures the number of unique viewers, listeners or more generally households, of a tv or radio program in a particular time period during a week.”

- Advertising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising
Brief excerpt: “The TV commercial is generally considered the most effective mass-market advertising format and this is reflected by the high prices TV networks charge for commercial airtime during popular TV events. The annual Super Bowl football game in the United States is known as much for its commercial advertisements as for the game itself, and the average cost of a single thirty-second TV spot during this game has reached $2.3 million (as of 2004)…(…)”

“… advertising is the paid communication by which information about the product or idea is transmitted to potential consumers.”

“In general, advertising is used to convey availability of a "product" (which can be a physical product, a service, or an idea) and to provide information regarding the product. This can stimulate demand for the product, one of the main objectives of advertising. More specifically, there are three generic objectives of advertisements : communicate information about a particular product, service, or brand (including announcing the existence of the product, where to purchase it, and how to use it), persuade people to buy the product, and keep the organization in the public eye (called institutional advertising).

- Advertising techniques:

(Note from qbeac: there are many different advertising techniques, but I will just underline one of them: testimonials and appeal to authority)

“* Testimonials: Advertisers often attempt to promote the superior quality of their product through the testimony of ordinary users, experts, or both. "Three out of four dentists recommend..." This approach often involves an appeal to authority.”

- Appeal to authority: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
Brief excerpt: “An appeal to authority is a type of argument in logic also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it, where an unsupported assertion depends on the asserter's credibility). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge and is often a logical fallacy.”… (Note from qbeac: but it works!)

- Out-of-body experience: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_Of_Body_Experiences

The sceptic’s main argument:

Brief excerpt: “While the subjective experience may be very compelling, most skeptics discount the idea that the phenomenon is somehow linked to an actual physical relocation of consciousness. They note that, in the absence of the typical conviction that the experience is real, these experiences would simply be considered dreams; and that lacking hard evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation would be that the experiencer's sense of heightened reality, however powerful, is a subjective one.”
--------------------

Well, that was a list of some important concepts which have to do with the three main parameters I mentioned in my previous post: credibility, subjectivity and viewing figures. So, in my next posts I would like to explain one possible path to get to the top of the mountain based on all those concepts.

Chao. qbeac.
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qbeac
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« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2005, 07:32:19 »

Hi everybody, well, there are several other things I would like to say to complete my argument about a “possible good path” that could help or lead many, many, many people to the top of the mountain so that they will be able to smell the roses too.

In summary, the general idea is quiet simple. All we would have to do is the following:

1) To try to maximize the credibility of the speaker.
2) To try to minimize the subjectivity of the matter.
3) To try to maximize viewing figures.


How could we do each one of those things? Why would it be important to do each one of those things? Well, I would like to add a few further explanations I have in mind about it, but I hope the general idea is already easier to see. In future posts I will give you some more data and information about it.

Now then, there are several important elements in this idea, and one of them, not the only one, would be "the famous two words” (or similar random elements). I’ll be glad to hear your comments about that.

I would also like to add that I have already contacted several important researches on this field (Ex: Dr. Jeff Long from the NDERF, Dr. Pim van Lommel, Dr. Bruce Greyson, etc., etc.), and some of them have already told me they are quite interested in this experiment and will be willing to help. I am very sure the confidentiality of the projector will be guaranteed if he/she wishes to remain anonymous. With regards to ourselves, we will proceed with the Spanish experiments to try to reach Level 3 validation. Our projector is confident the correct words can be read.

Please, think about it, and also think about the example of the sand grains from the NASA web site (Post #4, pag. 2 of this thread). This is a team effort because the mountain is high and there are many people waiting to smell the roses.

Thanks. qbeac.

P.S. For more details on the Agnostic Method and the hints to read the words, see Post #4, pag.1:
INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD (Hints: section 2):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907
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skropenfield
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« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2005, 09:27:47 »

Here some quotes. On all sciences the censor? In advances of knowledge there are no aprioristic criteria of "correctness", academician Nathalie Bekhtereva considers.
 „The Russian scientific newspaper „ has placed excerpts from the message which was made at Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences by chairman of the Commission of struggle against pseudo-science :witch:  academician E.P.Krugljakov. :spider:
Pseudo scholars, wheeler-dealers from a science and outspoken Swindlers as the author asserts, cause serious damage to society as have penetrated even into the supreme echelons of power, including state structures. Daring such publication we thus expected to encourage readers on open-hearted conversation. The first responses, mostly emotional, have followed immediately. And the letter from Saint Petersburg, signed by the head of studies of Institute of human brain of the Russian academy of Sciences, the head of Laboratory of neurophysiology of thought processes, creativity and consciousness, the academician of Russian Academy of Sciences and Russian Academy of Medical Sciences Nathalie Petrovna Bekhtereva has not kept itself waiting. And, certainly, we hope on continuation of dialogue.
The modern physics is practically finished, with exception of two little clouds nothing will sadden its horizon - approximately so has been told by the top scientific authority lord Calvin on boundary of XIX and XX centuries. At the end of XX century many physicists represent the opinion, that the building of physics is constructed almost up to the end, with exception of certain marginal problems. Perhaps, for this reason some from them have taken the right and honorary duties of censorship from science - began „to check on correctness „hypotheses from different areas of  knowledge.
As reason for this letter served fragments from statement of chairman of the Commission for struggle against pseudo-science academician Krugljakov at session of Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences (where, by the way, he has been seriously criticized) published in „the Russian scientific newspaper ". The academician – physicist considers itself for qualified to categorically criticize a physiological article. We shall notice: published not somewhere, but in šeer reviewed magazine of Russian Academy of Sciences „Human physiology " – the article has past all procedures appropriate in such cases.
That publication has really been devoted to research of rather unusual phenomenon. Several years ago in Institute of human brain of the Russian Academy of Sciences people claiming the ability to see with closed eyes have addressed. And not only one person, but a group of youth, and as affirmed it was possible to master these skills. Certainly, it would be the easiest way to answer, that we are engaged in serious scientific problems and we are not interested in laymans.
However long-term experience in studying human brain has taught us to respect its capabilities.
Our team already more than fifty years studies extremely complex and fascinating problem - the organization of supreme functions of a healthy and unhealthy human brain. We research, what occurs in a human brain by perception and pronouncing of words, by various thought processes.
We investigate interaction of emotions and thinking, we try to understand, how the brain perceives pain and parts where illusions are formed...
This fundamental knowledge allows us to develop new, hi-tech methods of treatment. We cooperate with various scientific institutes. Our works are widely known and published in domestic and foreign peer rewieved magazines. On this way it was revealed a lot of interesting things including such, that not at once was accepted by scientific community. But all the same it was accepted. Therefore it is quite natural, that to us people with daring ideas and offers quite often address. From them we check some.
So was in the abovementioned case. We have invited guys and have asked them to execute the tasks developed by us.
I shall not describe all details - interested persons can find them in the abovementioned scientific article. Result: 100 percent of right answers! :thumbsup: Thus, we have established that the phenomenon exists, and though much still remains not clear, it is interesting to be engaged in it and it should be investigated.
 Naturally, so far as the certain scientific research has been done, we have directed its description and conclusions to media. The article as whole has been easy accepted by physiologists, but has done a lot of noise in other areas of science. I think, the calmness of physiologists spokes that, first, they by virtue of the profession faithfully consider the opportunities of human brain, and second, similar things already and earlier were described.
For example, still Helmholtz introduced the concept of color temperature, and it has been shown, that there are people which see with fingers due to change of color temperature. About “blindsight” has been written in sixties. Academician B.P.Konstantinov has organized then in Phystech a group on research of this phenomenon. Scientists have found out nothing, however, as the head of this group told, Konstantin itself in the meantime has learned to distinguish dominoes knuckles from the opposite side.
The present phenomenon has been checked up seriously by us in the conditions completely excluding an opportunity of trivial peeping. If it has not been made, there would be no further researches and articles. „Preliminary assumptions „what so irritate academician Krugljakov, concerns the understanding of physiological meaning of phenomenon. It is known, that not all existing phenomena give us an explication that quite often does not prevent their practical application. However thoughts about the possible (probable) explications, made as assumptions, are quite allowable in experimental work. It is interesting as alternative vision but if it is something other, it too is interesting. It is important also, that children with serious defects of vision saw in the alternative way better, than "directly". Perhaps, it will give chance to help visually impaired. But how to realize it? If pilot research can be executed „off the cuff " and on pure enthusiasm, the organization of serious works needs special financing.
The air has begun to smell of money (unfortunately, not for us). It was enough for interest on the part of the Commission of pseudo-science. The criticism also began. Academician Krugljakov edits the story, and it becomes simple "horror story". Here are present distorting and direct lies. You must not know the history of my family (let alone the text of the letter so not liked by the head of the commission) to imagine, how I „actively suggest „to work with secret services. Other suspicion – on misappropriation of budgetary funds by us - besides does not meet the validity that financial documents prove.
We see in article also a direct insult. The team of authors including members of the Russian Academy of Sciences, members of the international academies and societies, is ranked as „pseudo-scientific sharpers " and "speculators". I want to notice, that insults begin when emotions take over reason or when there are no arguments. Basically it can serve as an occasion for trial in court, but I at all do not want to go deep into legal aspects of the affair. :naughty:  Much more important for me is conservation of the intra-academic ethics. All of us belong to unique community what the Russian academy of sciences is, that imposes serious obligations on each of us. And smallest of them is the respect to each other and work of colleagues.
And in the end small deviation, some words about my area of a science which I indefinitely love also to which I have devoted all my life. It is known, that in due time set of theories of the greatest physicists appeared insolvent and has been denied in process of development of science. However without these errors which nevertheless were seriously enough discussed, the modern building of physics would not be constructed. Now the science actively investigates other limiting condition of matter: extremely complex community of huge number of cooperating objects, each of which has the most complicated structure. It is human brain, in which about 10 billion neurons!
There are not yet only any theories, but also any plausible hypothesis how the complete brain works. Yes, we already know much about details of its work. But the complete mosaic is far from end. One of examples: nerve cell generates pulses with frequency about (near) 20 in a second. Speed of interaction - milliseconds. So such slow system provides with that image such huge speed of processing of the information? Most likely, such complication of object should inevitable lead to occurrence of new properties.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 We do not know limits and opportunities of brain; we do not know also how physical laws with reference to such difficult matter are modified. Therefore if there is something not clear, it is necessary for investigating. There are no aprioristic criteria of correctness or abnormality of a hypothesis or experiment. New theories, daring ideas and non-standard experiments are necessary for understanding of principles underlying brain functioning, certainly, alongside with systematic, so-called routine work. The scientist, who has reached a certain level, should have the right, also opportunity to carry out research in the direction chosen by him even if it is far from seeming to be perspective and correct. Yours faithfully, the academician Nathalie Bekhtereva. :nerd:                                                                               http:// [url]http://www.matrixf.com/Directvision.pdf
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