Why is it so difficult?

[Rastus]

Let me ask yo why you want to OBE/AP?  Then let me ask you why your here on earth?

Really that's all there is too it.  If you can't answer both questions, then you will have problems trying to AP.  They are intrinsicially related questions.

[RJA]

While people may or may not project while sleeping (I'm still not sure if I buy that), I don't think conscious, remembered projections are exactly "natural". And I believe just as people have different physical aptitudes, I'm guessing people vary widely in their innate ability to learn this particular skill.

I read recently that introverts (i.e. those 25% of the population who officially fall into the psychological classification according to the Myers-Brigg personality test or similar tests) are much more likely to remember their dreams.  I'm guessing (but I may be wrong here) that those most successful at AP are introverts in that their mental energy tends to be more focused on what's going on inside them (emotions, fantasy's, existential questioning, etc.) than what goes on outside of them (career, social life, etc.).  So I tend to think that one's innate psychological makeup affects one's ability in this area.  

I think it's a disservice for various books to say "anyone can do it with these simple exercises".  From the accounts out here, that clearly isn't the case.

When I first tried this I got to the vibrational state within three weeks.  The vibes were so strong it felt like someone driving a semi-truck through my body.  Strangely enough, I've never been able to reproduce vibrations like that since.  Why? Your guess is as good as mine.  Nevertheless I was able to OBE five or six times, but typically there weren't much in the way of vibrations.  I quit for awhile because conditions weren't condusive (young kid climbing in bed with me and my wife each night - hard to focus when sleeping kid is thrashing around  Now the kid is sleeping in her own room and I'm picking up where I left off, so I'll be interested to see if I'm able to get out quickly.

As for why the consistent practice is required, I believe that we humans are composed of spirit, mind and body but we've gotten to a place where the physical body typically calls the shots.  It tells the mind what to do (give me food, give me sex, etc.) and the spirit atrophies.  Through various spiritual practices (and I guess in a loose sense OBE could be called that) we slowly reverse the equation so our spiritual nature is telling the mind what it wants the body to do.  This process can take a lifetime, but I believe success in OBEing is tied to one's ability to be aware with their spiritual component of subtle conditions and processes that go on in the body.  

In baseball, a good hitter (Ichiro) sharpens his skills through decades of practice and ultimately his physical senses are unconsciously harvesting and processing tons of physical cues that he probably isn't even aware of.  Similarly, a skill like this requires sustained practice so that that part of us that isn't physical or mental, is likewise picking up on very subtle (probably non-physical) information and acting on it to successfullly bring about the right conditions for conscious, remembered projections.

How regular are your attempts?  Have you varied the techniques?  Tried combinations of techniques?  Have you got to where you've felt vibrations?  Do you get enough sleep?  Do you tend to remember your dreams?  Do you keep a dream journal?  Do you tend to sleep through the night, or wake up several times?  Are you a light sleeper or heavy sleeper?  Do you typically try to AP at night before sleep or during a meditation session, etc?  Do you have any fears, hangups, or religious concerns that might be holding you back?  Have you tried or been able to produce a lucid dream?  Do you sleep alone or with someone else?  Do you do written or spoken affirmations during the day?

One of the things that I find frustrating is the feeling that the timing of a lucid dream or OBE is out of my control. I can do the same thing night after night and one night I have a lucid dream and another night an OBE and most nights nothing.  Why is that?  Most of my OBEs came after I woke up in the middle of the night, did a technique and drifted back to sleep only to wake up later ready to exit.  One time I woke up to the sensation of being flipped over lengthwise and found myself (astral self) on the floor beside my bed.  So clearly, although my conscious mind is establishing intention and performing the techniques, there is clearly an unconscious process at work that is determining when to actually produce the OBE.  

Anyway, this was a long, rambling response but the bottom line is that I don't think it's an entirely natural thing to do and that a variety of spiritual, psychological and physical traits make it easier for some and harder (hopefully not impossible) for others.

Anyway, - good luck! : )

[catmeow]

Hi RJA

An educated and informed reply methinks.... you're spot on regarding the various different factors which affect success at OOB.

One question I would like to ask you, and others on this board who have mentioned they have had both LD's and OOB's.  How do you distinguish one from the other?

Personally I have had many LD's, but I am not convinced these are actually genuine OOB's.  Too much fantasy, not in the RTZ, mental clarity too low etc.

What is the difference, how do people distinguish between LD and OOB?

catmeow

[RJA]

Hi cat,

Regarding telling the difference between an OBE and a lucid dream: for me it was easy most of the time because with the OBEs I was awake mostly and I consciously had to try to get out of my body.  As I mentioned, once I just sort of woke up to the feeling of being flipped over and I was out.  Other times I've had to roll out or sit up and out.  Once I got stuck half-way out at the waist and experienced pain when I tried to get out beyond that as if the bottom half of me was stuck and I shouldn't try to force it.  I eventually got out all the way.  And then, once out I was there standing in my bedroom thinking "wow! I'm out".

With lucid dreams, mine have typically occurred where I'm dreaming and suddenly something strikes me as "not normal" and I realize (eureka!) I must be dreaming.  For example once I was walking on water and it just struck me - "hey, I can't normally walk on water...wait a minute, this is a dream!!!"

There were a couple of times where I suspected it was an OBE but I didn't specifically remember getting out of my body and I wasn't in my bedroom.  So those are kind of questionable.  

Also, my OBEs haven't been particularly lucid in that after I'm out of my body I seem to make an initial decision or so - i.e. I think I'll go downstairs or I think I'll go outside, etc.  but at some point shortly thereafter my surroundings have morphed dramatically and I'm reacting to events rather than exercising any control over the situation.

All of the experiences that I know were OBEs started out with me getting out of my body.  Then, in some of them I just tromped around my house a bit.  In others I seemed to get to another place in RTZ (Real Time Zone) such as a park that I know or a building.  And in others I tried to project beyond the real time zone and seemed to make it.  For example in one instance, wanting to project beyond the RTZ to the astral plane proper I used a technique recommended by Buhlman (Adventures Beyond the Body, etc.) where I went outside picked a point in the night sky about 45 degrees up and flew toward the stars at that point.  I went through a "warp speed" type of phenomina, like on Star Trek and did indeed end up somewhere that I figured was not RTZ (but without looking at my journal I can't remember much about it now).

In Astral Dynamics, RB mentions projecting directly to an astral plane, as opposed to just stepping out of your body.  I took this to mean that via your intent you project directly beyond the RTZ.  In this case I'm not sure exactly how you would differentiate between that and a lucid dream unless you specifically remembered being pseudo-awake and trying to project.  Keep in mind though, I'm a beginner so those with more experience maybe don't have that problem.

[Euphoric Sunrise]

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

Let me ask yo why you want to OBE/AP?  Then let me ask you why your here on earth?

Really that's all there is too it.  If you can't answer both questions, then you will have problems trying to AP.  They are intrinsicially related questions.

I'm interested in why you say somebody has to know why they are on Earth for them to be able to project. Do you mean they literally must know why they have this physical existence, or do you mean they must give their life some sort of purpose themselves?

Anyway, i would say an important factor in the troubles of projecting is the conditioning society puts us through. A lot of people are brought up to believe that the 'supernatural' is a lot of garbage, and that things like this are impossible. When somebody believes something to be impossible and has done for some time, he or she will have to break down that barrier, and for some it's an extremely hard thing to do.
We (as in humans) tend to fear the unknown. Before somebody projects, they have no idea what they are really getting themselves into. They might hear all kinds of stories about demons, negs, death etc. and things like that don't help to calm people down about projecting. If you are scared of what you'll find when you're out of your body, your desire to be out decreases, which means your chances of success would be slim to none.
This all ties in with what RJA was saying about the physical body calling the shots. Physicality has taught us to ignore metaphysics, A spiritual [used very loosely] journey can let the mind take over.

[Rastus]

I seem to be stuck on the same thought train today.  If you understand the questions, then the answers are obvious.  If you don't understand the questions, then the answers don't mean anything.  That sounds like tripe, but most people have read several ways to AP, so why aren't they?  They don't because they are blocking themselves at some level.  It's the 'why' that is important.

You don't ahve to know what your karmic fate is on earth.  I mean, in general, why do humans incarnate on earth?  Remember, this site is about AP, not deeply spiritual things.

[Euphoric Sunrise]

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

I seem to be stuck on the same thought train today.  If you understand the questions, then the answers are obvious.  If you don't understand the questions, then the answers don't mean anything.  That sounds like tripe, but most people have read several ways to AP, so why aren't they?  They don't because they are blocking themselves at some level.  It's the 'why' that is important.

Agreed

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

You don't ahve to know what your karmic fate is on earth.  I mean, in general, why do humans incarnate on earth?  Remember, this site is about AP, not deeply spiritual things.

Yes, but AP can be a part of deeply spiritual things, and if answers are to be reached, exploration of anything related should be considered.
People have different beliefs about why humans incarnate on earth, and i've talked to many people of different beliefs who have projected successfully. This makes me feel that i'm still missing exactly what you are saying. My apologies if i'm way off track here, but i think this is important to the topic.

[astralpwka]

Why is it difficult? My thoughts...

1). Maybe its a type of initiation. We have to prove we are strong enough.

2). It has similarities with death. Since most of us fear death, its hard to play with it. However, once you've stepped out a time or two, death is not that intimidating anymore.

3). Fear of other things. Demons, spirits, ghosts, etc. Again, once you've stepped out its easier not care about them either.

4). Maybe because if it weren't worth fighting for, it wouldn't be worth it.

[astralspinner]

When you think about it, sleeping is a natural thing for us, that we do every night. But I bet you can't do that at will, either. All you can do is lay down, close your eyes, and wait for it to happen by itself.

Some people can genuinely fall asleep at will. But it takes practice. Same with AP.

What makes AP even worse is that it happens naturally when we're asleep, but we want it to happen when we're awake. That's a much less natural thing, and so takes even more work.

[Rastus]

You can be spiritually clueless and project just fine.  You can be enlighteded to the hilt and not project.  So why?

Back to why humans are incarnated on earth.  You can listen to as many peoples theories as you want, that doesn't make them valid.  It's up to you to remember why.  Spiritual enlightenment doesnt' require you to AP.  Do you really think you will find all your answers 'out there'?  

The path to enlightenment is a journey inward, so if your having trouble going 'out', trying looking 'inward'.  Perhaps your soul is trying to tell you something?  Perhaps you need to finish up some other things first?  Perhaps journeying outward would be a big distraction from your path at this time?

[RJA]

The connection between "enlightenment" and ability to project is interesting.  I read a book last year on "Centering Prayer" or "Contemplative Prayer", which is essentially a form of meditation practiced by Catholic monks.  In this particular book ("Open Heart, Open Mind" by Thomas Keating) the author, an old Catholic monk describes how various phenomina such as levitating occur among the monks but they are generally considered distractions on the spiritual path.  He cites the example of one particular monk who kept levitating during certain group activities and had to be asked to leave because it was distracting the group.

Another writer, who also has a background as a Catholic monk (Jim Marion) in his book "Putting on the Mind of Christ" essentially describes the path of spiritual growth as a gradual "rise in consciousnes".  To explain it better he fits the "Christian" path into a model of consciousness levels that was proposed by Ken Wilber.  One of the levels is the "Psychic Level", and Marion explains that when we begin operating at the Psychic Level of consciousness that various things like Astral Projection, healing powers, etc. occur, but that it's very easy to get so enamored with these things that we can get stuck at the Psychic level and fail to progress further toward enlightenment (or what he calls the "Christ Consciousness").

Another interesting piece to for Christians is on the web at www.chrmysticaloutreach.com . It's by a man named LM Richardson and describes his meditative path as a Christian.

Not to denigrate AP, but I get the sense from several writers that psychic phenonmia that accompany spiritual growth are "neat", perhaps but that many progress spiritually without experiencing any of these phenomina and that the presence of these phenomina should not be viewed as evidence of spirituality.

In fact, remember in the Bible when Christ said that in the end times many would come to him and say "Lord, Lord, look at all these great things I did in your name - healings, etc." and he would reply to them something to the effect of "get away from me, I never knew you."  Getting away from the arrogant and closed-minded "we're saved and you're not" mentality of orthodox Christianity, what Christ was referring to here was not people approaching him personally, but rather the attainment of enlightenment or the "Christ" consciousness.  He is saying that no matter what great spiritual things we do, we will not enter into what he referred to as the "Kingdom of Heaven" until we attain enlightenment.

[Euphoric Sunrise]

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

You can be spiritually clueless and project just fine.  You can be enlighteded to the hilt and not project.  So why?

I might put that down to the belief and fear from a person when trying to project, or as you say they have things here to fix first.

quote:
Back to why humans are incarnated on earth.  You can listen to as many peoples theories as you want, that doesn't make them valid.  It's up to you to remember why.  Spiritual enlightenment doesnt' require you to AP.  Do you really think you will find all your answers 'out there'?

That not all of them are necessarily valid is exactly my point though. If not all of them are valid, yet all of them are getting out, true knowledge of why humanity is incarnated on Earth is not necessary.

quote:
The path to enlightenment is a journey inward, so if your having trouble going 'out', trying looking 'inward'.  Perhaps your soul is trying to tell you something?  Perhaps you need to finish up some other things first?  Perhaps journeying outward would be a big distraction from your path at this time?

Very good point. That's exactly what i have found. I had been having trouble getting out quite a while ago, and it took me a long time to realise that perhaps there are things here that i need to fix first before i can start anywhere else.

[Max]

If projecting is a natural thing for us, something we do every night, then why is it so hard for us to do at will? Why is consistant practice required? Now, some might view this question as negative and full of doubts. This is not the case. I believe that there is something to projecting, too many people claim they have done it. I have been practicing for about a year now, and though I have had some interesting things happen, I have not had a projection yet. It is just something I'm wondering about. Thanks in advance for any replies.