Belief, personal responsibility, and perception.

[chromed]

After reviewing your (kiauma) conversations with SD on another thread, I think it's safe to say that we have a very different basic models of how the universe works (and are probably equally mired in the consequences of those models). I'm not near as convinced as you seem to be in the all encompassing power of intent.

I think where my model and yours differ is the role of humans in the universe. My experience has shown me that we are very small fish in a very large pond, and that there are more ponds out *there* than there are fish in this one. Essentially, we (intent and all) are not really so important that the universe/god takes notice of us and conforms to our will. We have to use other tools (energy, chiefly) accomplish our will. An analogy would be that just because the rabbit goes through victim-hood therapy, and comes out not believing that snakes have any power over him doesn't protect him from a snake. The rabbit just isn't important enough for nature to make the exception. (A consequence of this model is that I think we both agree that the responsibility for dealing with the snake lies with the rabbit (or dealing with an attacker lies with the victim)... you from a POV that it is ultimately the rabbit's "fault" (that's a bad word, but a better one escapes me), me from the POV that no one else will do it for him). In my experience, magic doesn't fail because the target didn't believe, but because the "rules" were not correctly applied.

But maybe I misunderstand you, and this is your point: If someone asks me how to defend themselves, the answer is almost always remove/reduce the number of ways you can be attacked. As far as I've ever seen, the practical application of this was never just "believe" the attacks away, but YMMV. In fact, the practical version of my answer is to take up a tradition of magic, not because it will allow you to somehow "blast" your attacker (whatever it may be), but because the changes that occur in a person who practices magic (*practice* being the key word) make such attacks more difficult. You can spot them more readily, you're no longer as taste a target for astral pests, you become exposed to energies other than human, etc. Whatever the reason, it just seems to work. Here, the intent is to remove someone else's power over the victim, but it's hard work, not intent, that accomplishes the goal.

Before we get too far into this discussion, too, I'd like to point out that I'm not approaching this conversation from a purely philosophic point of view. In my occult work, I strive to stay only with things I could test (at least as far as you can test something as subjective as most occult subject are... like, for instance, astral entities . Some of this discussion will undoubtedly fall into some areas of speculation, where I'm either guessing or repeating what I've gotten from some entity, but haven't independently verified, and I will try to label those clearly.

There is plenty to hang myself with above, so I'll stop now
chromed

[kiauma]

Very interesting reply Chromed.  Very discerning in some respects.

I'm not near as convinced as you seem to be in the all encompassing power of intent.

This is a strange thing to hear coming from a professed occultist and magic user.  Certainly, you would agree that key to using magic is making one's intent as clear as possible and focusing that intent - otherwise, what is the point of ritual and incantation, and utilizing specific symbology?  Isn't the very definition of magic 'remotely manifesting one's will'?   How can you possibly imagine magic happening without the directing intent?  

Seems to me, you are even more convinced of the power of intent than I, it is merely that while your emphasis is on what you are directing, my emphasis is on what is directing.

Other than that, same difference.

I think where my model and yours differ is the role of humans in the universe.

I agree and disagree with this.   I agree with your evaluation of our cosmic position, that we are not favored.  I do not think, however, that we are ignored.   Looking around me I see we have a relatively wide lattitude of possible action within the restraints of our circumstance.  Certainly our accomplishments, good or bad, reflect a trememdous amount of individual power, and I doubt all that power came from isolation.

"Essentially, we (intent and all) are not really so important that the universe/god takes notice of us and conforms to our will."

Please point to where I said or implied that God conforms to our will.  What I have been saying all along is that our intent directly impacts our experience.  This, in turn, influences the world, but as to how much that is a case-by-case basis, far beyond my limited vision to see.

"We have to use other tools (energy, chiefly) accomplish our will."

Regardless of tool or technique, intent is necessary, and the fulcrum on which all hinges.  The trick is getting things to comply with our conscious intent, and recognizing how our unconscious intent already effects our experience.  Recognizing this is literally understanding our true power.   Then, whether you use a wrench or energy, you will know where to apply your intent to get the desired end.

"An analogy would be that just because the rabbit..."

Again you make a grave error in reading me.  I never said nor meant to imply intent automatically gives power over others, whether rabbit or snake or otherwise.  Owning our intent gives us power over ourselves.  How this effects our experience is very subtle, but direct.  

What is with your fascination in power over others?   When you recognize that true power lies in the knowledge of your power over yourself, then you will understand me.

In fact, I think this raises THE fundamental issue, which is how we view the very nature of conflict.  Recognize that your foe is you, and all will be clear.  For example, in using magic you site the reason for failure as not following the rules of magic.  In other words, in order for success on the next attempt you have to outperform yourself.

In the same way in DK's case she needs to understand what her complicity is in the situation.  She may never figure it out.  She may figure it out and still not be able to abate it.   But there IS a reason she is experiencing this, and it is taking her extreme amounts of energy to try to control the other, when IMO her energy would be far better spent empowering herself through understanding.

If someone asks me how to defend themselves, the answer is almost always remove/reduce the number of ways you can be attacked. As far as I've ever seen, the practical application of this was never just "believe" the attacks away, but YMMV. In fact, the practical version of my answer is to take up a tradition of magic, not because it will allow you to somehow "blast" your attacker (whatever it may be), but because the changes that occur in a person who practices magic (*practice* being the key word) make such attacks more difficult.

The point I am always trying to make is that we control ourselves, not others.  I find more than a little irony that you are arguing against the power of will, yet choose an instrument of power utilizing the will in the question of defending yourself!

Using your will to control others is an offense.  OF course, I am ignorant of the larger karmic connections, but I do not believe in it.  It can be done, but it is always a trick.

For example, for the purposes of argument let us say that you cast a spell on someone, to curse them.  Next let us say that the victim of your intentions has a bad day, and then he begins to think, "Oh my gosh, it is Chromed's curse!"  Guess what - he has bought it.  He is yours.  He has made an agreement in his mind that he is in your power.  Actually, all the time, he is helpless in the face of his own decision that he is under the power of your curse.   To get out of it, all he would have to do is change his mind, but in his mind he cannot do that - so he cannot.

THAT is why discipline and meditation are so necessary, to discern our true intentions and align our life and perceptions.  It is not just a matter of 'believing it away' to change other people and circumstance.  There is a hysteresis of intent, influence and outcome that must be allowed to complete dependent on many factors, but that also is a case-by-case basis, but still, knowing that our intent shapes our experience is the immutable key to what we can and cannot do.

[chromed]

Certainly, you would agree that key to using magic is making one's
intent as clear as possible and focusing that intent - otherwise, what
is the point of ritual and incantation, and utilizing specific
symbology?

A quick magic lesson, from my point of view (not that I'm saying you need one, but just so you know how I operate): There are two thing necessary for magic to work: energy and intent. Intent is "created" by a focused and disciplined mind prior to the ritual. Frankly, that's the easy part. The more difficult part is raising the energy (by tapping symbols, whatever) and combining the two (that's ritual) into something that has a chance of working.

In that paradigm, intent is important, but it is one of *two* things, and that's why I said I wasn't as convinced to the all encompassing power of intent. All by itself, it's just like wishing.


I do not think, however, that we are ignored.


To me, that depends on what we're talking about In my experience, there are things/entities/godforms/whatever that take an active-ish interest in what happen here on earth. I find it hard to believe, though, that the universe as a whole cares. Or more interestingly, that whatever created this universe is specifically concerned about me... the concept always seemed a little conceited (and we all know occultists are *never* conceited!). I've never really had a good way to test this though (death seems like the most likely candidate, but I've also met some things that convincingly claimed to be departed humans, and in general they where clueless on the subject as well).


Regardless of tool or technique, intent is necessary, and the fulcrum on which all hinges.

I think we're in relative agreement here. But it is just one part of a machine (magic)... a fulcrum or a bar by itself is useless, it's only when used together that you can actually do interesting stuff.


What is with your fascination in power over others? When you recognize that true power lies in the knowledge of your power over yourself, then you will understand me.

In an equally cryptic statement, when you understand that power over yourself is power over others, then you will understand me. Seriously, though, who said I have a fascination with power over others (besides the obvious jibe "well, you are an occultist")?


Recognize that your foe is you, and all will be clear.


More guru/swami-like talk. In my experience, I am not my enemy (on most days . I am not the cause of obstacles in my life, I am the solution to them. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I can only depend on my experience. My observations, and conclusions, may be incorrect, but you've offered nothing to make me doubt them (not that I'm suggesting that that is your purpose behind this discussion).


Using your will to control others is an offense. OF course, I am  ignorant of the larger karmic connections, but I do not believe in it.
It can be done, but it is always a trick.

I am not a fan of the western (or even the eastern) concept of karma/dharma. It implies an oversight by something that acts as a cosmic nanny, spanking people who get out of line. The law of causality I can buy, but karma doesn't jive with what I've actually seen. But even within that concept, if it's my fate to be predatory, who am I to argue with my karma? (I'm not saying that I am, I just wanted to go ahead and open another useless debate on that topic .


For example, for the purposes of argument let us say...

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and just assume the speciousness of your analogy is a result of the limited effectiveness of analogies, and not because you're ignorant about magic. I know, again from *personal experience*, that magic is not limited in it's effectiveness to people who know you're targeting them (for good or ill). It isn't a matter of "[changing] his mind" but the application of energy, guided by intent, inline with certain rules.

Now, if this guy is just wandering around, imagining that people are cursing him, eventually, something will attach to him (one of the many little astral parasites) that will show him things that make him think he's being attacked, which will create more fear, which will feed the bugger, which in turn can do more impressive things to scare someone, and thus begins the cycle that you'll see often on this board. Up to a certain point, you can counter the entity with relatively simple remedies (including just "changing his mind"). At a certain "size", though, the entity has enough energy to actually be at least marginally intelligent, and it won't let go of it's meal easily. At which point, you need to seek stronger remedies.

My guess (warning: this is strictly speculation!) is that most of the people who come to this board asking for help are not (or at least are no longer) under attack by people. They've either fed, or attracted, or someone gave them, a big enough astral entity that sees them as a tasty treat. People who are particularly venerable are those with some natural psychic talent and some kind of emotional trauma. They have more energy (=food on astral) than the average joe, and have an easy place for the parasite to latch onto. I don't say this to denigrate the horrors they suffer through or the havoc that these things can cause in their lives, but in my experience, the amount of effort required by an individual to support a long term magical operation of *any* type is staggering.


One of the things I really enjoyed about RB's books and articles is his emphasis on his experience. I find the same trait in occultists who are effective at what they do. It's important because we can philosophize all day about the nature of the law of intent, but the only thing that matters at the end is what you can *do* with it. Or, what have you *done* with it. Like so many topics in metaphysics, we can wax philosophic, but what does that accomplish? So, I ask you and the other people on this board, what are the practical implications of the law as you see them, and is this really backed up by experience and experimentation/verification (as opposed to vague platitudes)?

[kiauma]

C,

In that paradigm, intent is important, but it is one of *two* things, and that's why I said I wasn't as convinced to the all encompassing power of intent. All by itself, it's just like wishing.

As I have already stated, "...while your emphasis is on what you are directing, my emphasis is on what is directing."

I feel it would be good to address some basic points myself here.

First, what is energy?  Many define energy as 'potential power', or 'power for potential work'.  They go to lengths to 'collect' this energy, then throw it to some desired purpose.

The fact is, however, that energy isn't a noun, it is a verb.  That energy is some 'thing' is an error of semantics and for the convenience of mental manipulation.  We are far too grounded in Aristotlean logic which says a thing is itself, and not anything else - another human invention.

Energy is the translation of something from one state to another.  Physically, from water to steam, or from disease to health.  That we can quantize this translation in numbers does not measure 'energy' as a thing in itself, it is a measure of change or potential change - work - which we call energy.

Psychologically, energy can be thought of as the change from indifference to affection, or from confusion to clarity.  We cannot put numbers on that, but measure our success by the magnitude of it's compliance with our will - and carry over the illusion that it is some 'thing' causeing it to happen.

As such, 'energy' is simply the progression of the expression of God -or the accomplishment of our will, which is also innately the expression of God.  There is nothing else.

Where does energy come from?  Why don't 'negative' entities simply absorb it for themselves, as we do?

Because energy is the change of something from one state to another, it is potential form.  Thus, all matter (form) is potentially energy, and all energy, potential form.  

We are energy.  Our psyche is energy.  'Positive' is naturally defined as that which promotes our higher realization.  Like sun, moisture and soil in proper quantities are positive for a flower, what 'grows' us is positive - positive energy, the potential to change us to a higher realization.  Conversely, negative energy is therefore that which reduces us.  Thought of in this way, all actions, emotions, and pursuits can be discerned as positive or negative.

Yes, energy can be stolen from the unaware and the ignorant, and it can give you short term empowerment, but only as a type of energy parasite.   Ultimately it falls far short of your highest realization, which is why compassion and self contemplation are paramount.  For the victim, awareness and resolve are what it takes to find higher realization.

Negative thoughts and emotions cause us to 'lose' energy - our potential for positive change or even our very person is diminished.  This is manifested as 'negs' by astral consciousness.

Therefore, all there is is our intent.


You speak throughout the rest of your answer of your experience and how much you rely on it.  I think that's great, but ultimately 'magic' is merely a means to convince yourself that you are capable of what you could do just as easily without all the theatrics, with understanding, awareness, and compassion.  Yes, you have far more experience in this than I, but then I have never felt the need to project my will remotely.

I have never felt that powerless.

[chromed]

<sigh>I should have known better. Every couple of months someone wanders onto these boards determined to let everyone know that there problems can be solved through light and love (or non-action, or "intent", or whatever). Where you come from, or what life experiences led you to come to this point of view are rarely, if ever, discussed (the only instance I can recall was a guy who eventually let on that his guide told him all this stuff, and soon after, his guide told him that we were all bad people plotting his doom and he should go away fast... I don't think anyone missed him). Without that key piece, you're just speaking from a philosophical point of view, trying make the world believe you by the power of your argument alone (and it's not a very convincing one).

No offense to you and other like you, but I don't buy it. No amount of moralizing, self-aggrandizing drivel with change that. And just so you don't the wrong impression, I'm not angry, just tired of a conversation that refuses to be useful. You baited the hook, and I bit, so I'm complicit, but I'm also ending this here, unless you choose to take this conversation in a useful/practical direction. Of course, the measure of that would be that other people actually take an interest in participation, rather than just enjoying you and me typing at each other.

I have never felt that powerless.

I'm happy you've lived in such uninteresting times. May fate keep it so for you.

chromed

[James S]

I'm interested!

Chromed, It's good to see you back again []
You've been quiet for a looooong time!
I was recently re-reading some old psychic defence topics. You've submitted some great posts!

So....as much as I'm interested, I have only a few personal experiences in this area to help shape my beliefs. I'd prefer to just observe.

[]
James

[kiauma]

C,

If you must leave on that defensive and derogatory note, there isn't much I can do about that.  You say you are not angry, though your entire post, other than your disclaimer, seems to say I have deeply offended you.  If so, I apologise.  

I was thinking that we were actually starting to dig out the real issues, and getting down to basic cases - it was just getting interesting.   Your response is a dismal disappointment.

I opened this thread at your request, then you leave my points unanswered, other than with vague Ad Hominem accusations and comparisons.  You tell me you base that on your experience, but deeper I feel it is because my answers were not based on your experience.

I suppose now we will never know.

I bid you peace.

[volcomstone]

The ultimate power is the choice not to use it

[kiauma]

The terminal option has it's use, and it's misuse, Volcomstone.  I've found that commitment and integrity carry far more of the load, far more often.

The only thing 'ultimate' about the terminal option is it's finality.

[kiauma]

Is the law of intent, which says we are subject to our intent, real or not?   We are all free to do whatever we want, but at the same time we feel subject to the intentions of others.  This topic is to explore the question of where our intent begins and ends, and where we become subject to the will of others.

I see this as a critical understanding, not just for defending against so-called negative forces, but in understanding our own will, and achieving true self-empowerment.

Belief is a two edged sword.  For example, believing we can have power over others is a very seductive reasoning that says by disempowering others our own power is increased.  At the same time, however, it implies that others can have power over us, with our attendant loss of power.  With this belief in external power, we therefore open ourselves to control by others.  Belief in magic is the same, an unconscious agreement by ourselves to the power over us by others.  Just like any insult, however, according to the law of intent we can choose to accept the positive, and refuse the negative.

How do I know the law of intent is real?  To know the law of intent is real all you have to do is look around you.  The multiplicity of religions tells me the law of intent is real.  Art and destruction tells me it is real.  Love and hate tells me it is real   Samsara and enlightenment tells me it is real.  Karma and freedom tells me it is real.  I see we don't have to believe in the law of intent to have it act upon us - it is evident in peoples behaviour, that they see the world through their own understanding, often denying their own empowerment, and because they do not understand the law of intent they remain blind to it.  They remain blind to it because their perception is too dear to them - they choose to remain blind to it.   As I said, belief is a two edged sword, and to commit to the law of intent is to have no one to blame but yourself.

Also, there are those who prefer we remain blind to it.

Belief in external power is a mistaken displacement of physical cause and effect.  If someone holds negative intentions on our bodies they can hurt our bodies, and the pain leads us to say "You have given me this pain, you have hurt me, you have killed me."  This has several problems.  First of all, pain and death are inevitable in life, not just to be caused by someone with 'negative' intentions, not inherently good or bad.  Second of all, I would hope that everyone here at Astral Pulse would know that they are not their body, and when their body is hurt they are not really hurt, and when their body dies they do not really die.  Third, is the overall karmic connections, which we can never know completely and tends to direct most of our intentions, thus our situations and circumstances that we hold in life.

If we commit to the law of intent, we are sealling our belief that only we control what we do, which is our power over our self, which is the only true power.  Then we find freedom in the knowledge that if we choose self-responsibility, nothing can harm what the highest power has given us - except our own intent.