demon- whats the correct definition?

[naphere]

well I think depending on who you ask a demon might not be so black
or white good or evil. it could have the appearance of a demon
and the mind of an angel suppose.  But I suppose a demon could have
any negative trait. Crowley had a gaurdian demon because that was
what he needed to save him in a way. but maybe gaudian spirit
is a better word an entity that looks over.  lets say that your spirit
was a gaurdian demon it could make you believe that the whole world
is against you making you go through the abyss and cross it
making you a stronger better person who acts without fear.
this is a good thing but if an entity were to do that to you
without knowing the end result you would think it was evil.

[McArthur]

As far as i am aware, the word "demon" stems from the word "Daemon", which comes to us from the Greeks. These "divine beings" (daemons) were literally demonized by the Christian Church in its endeavour to make other religions less palatable to thier flock. The Celtic religions are a perfect example of this, where the image of the Celtic God Cernunnos, with his horns, became the typical 'devil' image. Or another example would be the typical 'devil' image with a 3 pronged fork. This comes from the Christian demonization of the Roman god Neptune and/or the Hindu god Shiva, and thier Tridents. So we could say that a lot of todays "demons" are either just yesterdays "gods" or gods from a religion that the Christian Church chose to demonize.

http://www.occultopedia.com/d/daimon.htm

Goetic Magickians tend to treat "demons" as some kind of subconscious forces/entities (in modern Psychological terms they would be called 'dissociated complexes' i believe) that can be either good or bad (read "My Life With The Spirits" by Lon Milo DuQette)





Edited by - McArthur on 14 April 2002  23:08:58

[Joe]

Hey DB,

Maybe there are two answers to the question.

In the absence of moral absolutes, "good" and "bad" are relative to each individual - "good" is that which serves your will, and "bad" is that which obstructs it. In that sense, demons are both good and bad, and although they have a will of their own, they can be constrained to do the magician's will by a number of methods. There are times when a demon's talents are far more suited to a task that an angel's, and you would summon that being for the purpose (eg. Paimon, Orobas). In addition, a demon will often be helpful if you appeal to their self-seeking nature.

However, in an absolute sense (ie. what God's definition of "good" and "bad" is), demons can of course be "evil", and take great pleasure in extremely dark perversions, cruelty and spiritual corruption. I'm not sure whether you can just say "that is their nature", because even humans learned to be dark at some point. Many left-hand practitioners embrace such aspects of entities. For what it's worth, long-term success comes from aligning oneself with the "good" hierarchy, and doing one's best to traverse up it. IMHO, that's what we were created for.

We also tend to caricature angels and demons, but there are a great many powerful entities who are "neutral", much like businessmen or politicians who seek their own ends and justify the "good" or "bad" means (eg, Buriel).

As to whether all such beings are subconscious creations or not, who can say. But I apply the same test of independence to them as to every other "entity" I meet - I wouldn't think you were a subconscious creation so I don't think they are.

All the best

[naphere]

I saw blade 2
in it someone asks someone if they are human
and he says barely Im a lawyer.

[Nita]

Hello Everyone
  A demon is a entity whose energy spins in such a way that it could almost be described as anti-matter. It comes from a alternate dimension that links closely to this dimension. They can not live here without inhabiting something of this dimension such as a animal or human being.
  They are not so much the word evil as they are completely uninterested in us or what harm they can do to us. They treat us like the insects we swat that bother us.
  They are highly intelligent and are able to manifest things into our dimension. They have a ranking or level of importance and a hierachy of command. They may be on the astral but there is a great deal of difference between a negative astral being and a demon. Once you meet a demon then you know the difference.
  They are part of the balance of the forces of life just like angels are the part of the balance. Angels also are in a alternate dimension close to ours. They also do not exist here physically unless it is in a body of a human being. They can manifest and show themselves and that is where the myths and legends come from that you can read from any culture. They all have devils and angels in every religion or group of legends even if they are different names.
  Nita

[Winged_Wolf]

Nita: I've never encountered anything at all with energy like "antimatter", let alone demons, which aren't that uncommon.  
And with good reason.  Such a being would be unable to interact with normal energy without risk of mutual destruction!

The energies that demons are made up of are not foreign--they exist here abundantly.  They also don't "spin" oddly.  However, you may be right that they and angels each come from alternative realities.  I've often speculated that myself.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[Nita]

Hello Winged Wolf
  Demons are composed of energy in which the atoms spin differently than something natural to this dimension. It is different and they are destroyed by the energy present here unless they possess something or use matter and energy of this dimension to hold the shapes that they find necessary to manifest. You are right about it being destructive to the matter in this universe in a lot of ways. Look at the illness's possessed people develop even after a demon leaves. They have to work to heal themselves mentally and physically.
  Demons are not that uncommon on the astral but they are not in a place as enimical to their survival on the astral plane. They use the energy there to form the shapes for their intelligence.
  They are in dimensions where they would have a shape which would be very hard for our eyes to focus upon and be able to comprehend all the physical structural differences.
  Angels in their own dimensions are like looking upon white shaped upon white with transparancies inbetween. Our minds are not able to comprehend them completely except as the styalized forms they take to help us out and give us guidance.
  They are almost all energy and just take the shapes and forms to aid us to comprehend them. Their energetic structure is not inimical to us in any way. A lot of dimensions link into our space and that is where a lot of things come from through gatewys.
  Nita

[Winged_Wolf]

I had to go away and do some research before I could be sure I could answer this one intelligibly.

First, it needs to be clear what antimatter is, and why it behaves the way it does.

The easiest example to use is the electron.  An electron is a base particle, meaning that, to date, we haven't found any evidence that it is made up of smaller particles.  (Protons and neutrons are both made up of quarks).

An electron has a negative charge.  Now, a particle which is in all respects identical to an electron, but has a positive charge, is called a positron.  A positron is antimatter.  When an electron and positron come into contact with one another--which they are prone to do, because opposite charges attract--they mutually annihilate--they destroy one another.

We HAVE discovered, and briefly contained, antimatter particles.  We know now that they do exist.  They are difficult to maintain, because you must keep them completely confined, away from their counterpart particles.

This is the important part--a positron will NOT annihilate a proton, or a neutron, or a charm quark, or whatnot--it will ONLY annihilate an electron.

If demons were made up of antimatter, then they would be so very, very easy to destroy....you need only determine what type of energy they are made up, and bombard them with its counterpart (which should be plentiful here).  The human body is not much of a barrier to psychic energy.  In fact, very little matter is.  You can drive a psi beam completely through this planet.

There is no logical reason why a demon, if it were made of antimatter, should be protected from annihilation by possessing a human.

Next, on to "dimensions", and quantum realities.
For a good overview on dimensions, I recommend the book, "Flatland".
Any being which exists in 4 dimensions is going to INCLUDE this dimension in its reality.  It is not going to be apart from it--our universe would be part of its universe.  But such a being would be so phenomenally more complex than we are, that it would be highly unlikely to even perceive us as living things.  We, on the other hand, would be able to perceive it, should it touch our space.  (3 dimensions=space...not a plane, a plane is 2 dimensions).  It would not appear in its entirety, but it would appear--just as if you put your finger through a 2 dimensional plane, anything there would perceive it as a roundish thing.  It would not appear to be what it is, and it would most likely be unrecognizeable.
However, just as we couldn't hope to effectively communicate with 2-dimensional beings, a 4 dimensional being couldn't hope to effectively communicate with us.  It would probably have trouble perceiving us--just as we would have trouble perceiving a 2-dimensional being.  Our three-dimensional light particles would not bounce off of a 2-dimensional plane.  Do you see?  2 dimensions really ARE imperceptable to us.  We would never know if 2-dimensional beings exist.

Just as a 4 dimensional being could not know that we exist...let alone drop in for a visit and communicate with us.

Now, quantum realities, often confused for dimensions, are different.
In quantum physics, the cat is both alive and dead--that is to say, when a choice is present, reality splits--in one reality it goes one way, in another it goes another way, ad infinitum.
So nearly anything is possible, somewhere in the Multiverse.  Each Universe is slightly different from the other.  As time passes, those differences grow and grow.  Therefore, there could be a universe where the dominant Earth species are intelligent dragons...or demons, or angels.  But these would be in 3 dimensions, if they split from our Universe--all the statements about dimensions still apply.

This is all physics....not merely my opinion, and there's nothing I can do about it.



--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[Nita]

Hello Winged Wolf
  You get rid of a demon by exorcising it which is bombarding it with energy until it leaves and goes back to where it came from in the first place.
  I know my facts are correct through a personal experience so books and physics don't really change what I have stated as far as my personal actions. I know antimatter causes a explosion in a electron I am sure that their electrons spin differently than anything in this sphere. People can look at as my opinion and that is alright also.
  I have had physics take years to catch up with the things that I have experienced enough to explain them.
  Nita

[chromed]

Winged Wolf,
  Mathmatics show atleast the possiblility for diminsions to be non-discreet (ie. not only might there be a 4th and 5th and 6th dim, but also a 3.2th diminsioun, 4.321 diminision, etc). So an interesting flatland-esqe question is what would an 3.1th diminsional entity look and act like in a 3d world? They would certainly be more closely related to 3d entities than 4d entities, but might exhibit some unusual charateristics.

chromed

[Winged_Wolf]

When you bombard a demon with energy, you're attempting to break its PATTERN.  The type of energy isn't nearly so important as the way it is arranged--it is the pattern that makes it a demon in the first place--the pattern that gives it shape, mobility, intelligence, memory....everything.  Without the pattern, it's not a demon--it's just a bunch of energy.  And it's the pattern--the frequency and arrangement of the energy you send--that makes it an effective pattern-breaker.  Send unpatterned energy at it, and unless you send a LOT of it, REALLY fast (you could cause damage by overloading its energy-distributing patterns), all you're doing is giving it breakfast.

If the demon were actually antimatter, and you bombarded it with its opposite particle, you would destroy the demon.....and a whole lot more.  You'd cause a massive explosion.  Even a single matter/antimatter collision would destroy the demon, and most probably kill the person it was possessing as well...actually, that's a virtual certainty.  I'm not sure of the precise amount of power released by such a collision, but I do know it's massive--beyond splitting an atom.
This is not something a demon could walk away from--or that you could walk away from, for that matter.

Oh, by the way, most of the demons I've seen weren't possessing anyone at the time.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[Nita]

Hello Winged Wolf
  If you read my message I said "almost be described as anitmatte"r.. I also have seen demons that weren't inhabiting a person and they had something linking them to this earth that they did inhabit.. I also did not say unpatterned energy I said a exorcism was used to get rid of demons. It bombards them with a  energy from a source which is inimical to them. The ceremony itself gives the energy a pattern.
  I vote that we just agree to disagree on this. I can't count the times that people argue over things like this because something affects their life view or some other reason. I know what I know from personal experience also.
  Nita

[Tir13]

*DING*

Round 2!

Haha jk

J

[distant bell]

I was wondering if there might be a difference in the definition of the word demon between the way it is used here and the way it is usually used in western magick...

A demon to me is a spiritual entity, neither good nor bad- just
another word for spiritual entity.

Some seem to consider the word to imply that the entity in some way is bad or negative- as opposed to an angel.

I noticed that someone mentioned that Crowley had a Demon guardian- I think that Crowley was on of those who used the word demon as astral entity.

I would like to hear your definitions!