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Do they Exist, or Not?

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Syncro

Hello all.

I have read a good deal of this particular section of the forums and have not, so far anyway, found any compelling evidence, one way or the other, for the existence of or the non-existence of said "negs." It seems to me that both sides of the argument are rather spirited about their viewpoint, which is understandable since this is a very sensitive topic, but if this is the case why hasn't sufficient evidence been provided?

Being curious by nature I wanted to hear both sides. It is difficult to provide absolute proof of this one way or another, as it seems that this is a very non-physical matter, at least from what I have read here so far. I am assuming this is because evidence is extremely hard to get one way or another on this matter?

I would like to ask to hear both sides opinions if possible, but I humbly ask to show what evidence that can be garnered----both for, and against, if possible. I am a very scientific oriented thinker, and like to look at both sides of the argument before coming to any conclusions on any matter. I will admit that I have my own beliefs regarding this, but I wish to put those aside completely if I may so that I can see this from a purely logical perspective.

I am not really asking for a debate here, though I am quite certain that one will spark, if indeed this thread picks up at all, between the two sides. This is, after all, a large forum and I am sure there are a variety of people here, and because of that differences arise, but I truly hope that both sides can just provide their evidence in as much detail as possible and where they got their evidence. Belief, of course, will likely factor in to ones opinion, and this is natural, but the opinion you have now is based on past experiences and knowledge gained from past research/information gained. If one has a compelling experience to give, I would love to hear them, if you are so willing.

I would like to compile the evidence from both sides as this goes on. I would like to look at this from all possible angles, and then see if I can garner enough evidence to logically conclude one way or another if these things are real, or if they are not.

I truly hope to hear from all of you!

MisterJingo

This is something I am open minded on.
While I might concede to the fact negative entities could exist, I feel a lot of websites blame near everything on Negs. Girlfriend problem? Negs. Headache? Negs. Depression? Negs. Epilepsy? Negs. Leg pain? Negs etc etc.
Regardless of your spiritual beliefs, the fact that we have a brain, (which to all our knowledge effects how we experience the physical or even if we experience it all)  means that defects or changes to the brain can effect our mind and view of reality. I have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist. I have experience of seeking therapy, and I know that it might take a while to find someone who is right for you. So stating you saw a therapist, and they didn't help, doesn't mean another one couldn't.
We then should take into account the complexity of the mind and how it is formed, and even how childhood experiences can affect a person for their life. Just look at conditions such as multiple personality syndrome to see how many 'individuals' can seem to inhabit the same mind. How easy would it be to accuse such a condition as possession? To just blanket term a multitude of very complicated conditions as a neg problem can cause more harm then good.

I also feel that people can create seeming independent negs through continued belief in such a neg. By this I mean they create a thought form over time. Those of a susceptible mindset could do this a lot quicker.


While I think we should be open minded on such matters, I do believe there is an excess of neg accusations floating around the net.

dingo

I agree with you both. I have had about half a dozen experiences with 'negs,'  (and I could see them so I'm not just blaming stuff on negs :P ), but I agree that such things could easily be created by the mind itself. The astral is a very thought-sensitive thing. If you want me to describe by experiences I will but I don't think its neccessary.
I have also seen and interacted with other spirits (non-negs) who seem neutral and/or friendly. Is it possible an entity could become 'evil'? What would prevent them? What would encourage them?
What if someone's a psychic vamp before they die? Do they carry on draining others' energies?

I've noticed others on the forum seem to accept the concept of negs without questioning it. Scepticism (as well as being open-minded) is a very important thing, and perhaps this topic will help to encourage others to question these things.

Andromache

I don't know about the whole mind over matter thing.  :roll:

I dismissed all my original experiences in the beginning until it all seemed to tumble down on top of me and I had no choice but to look.

I mean, like, if THINKING they're real creates them, why doesn't the opoosite happen. When I didn't believe in them, why didn't they disappear.

Did that make sense or am I sounding like my usual blonde, bubble headed self?  :lol:

Andromache

QuoteI have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist. I have experience of seeking therapy, and I know that it might take a while to find someone who is right for you. So stating you saw a therapist, and they didn't help, doesn't mean another one couldn't.

What, Runlola's salt bath that she posted a while back? I thought it was a pretty good idea. I left out the coffee grind though, nothing personal Lo, I just didn't think I could do it.

Honestly, if you're pushing psychiatry on someone, I don't see that as being any different than pushing possession stuff on someone. People need to know who they are to understand what is happening to them. In both cases you are telling the person who they are instead of letting people come into that on their own.

That and when people are freaked, they do not make sentences very well. It's totally like, "AH, YIKES, UGH, JEEZ, HELP!"

You literally have to ask frightened people questions over and over to get a big picture of what is going on. Of course people are going to sound like they're only depressed, you're only getting partial info and part of the picture. You need a lot of info to determine if someone is under attack or mentally unstable. How many illnesses have headache, runny nose, and coughing? Stuff as minor as a cold and as major as something life threatening. That's why you need more info. What if you diagnose a terminally ill person with a cold (sorry, but I see that as being true whether you're in the possession camp or the psych camp, I don't see a difference).

What I do know from my own experience is this. I wrote off all my crap as this or that, I always had a very logical explanation for everything. When I say things got bad, THINGS GOT BAD. I couldn't write it off anymore.

When you ask, "Why don't people start with the psych crap first," well I did. I already went down that route, you weren't there for it. And I'll bet'cha people who come looking here have already started with the psych camp route first too. This place sure as hell wasn't my first choice.

What I mean is: Don't make assumptions about people. It's hard enough communicating when you're freaked, don't make it harder by not listening.

MisterJingo

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What, Runlola's salt bath that she posted a while back? I thought it was a pretty good idea. I left out the coffee grind though, nothing personal Lo, I just didn't think I could do it.

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. I didn't know runlola had advocated salt baths. Salt baths are just a common response to neg problems seen around the net.

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Honestly, if you're pushing psychiatry on someone, I don't see that as being any different than pushing possession stuff on someone. People need to know who they are to understand what is happening to them. In both cases you are telling the person who they are instead of letting people come into that on their own.

Psychiatry is not a doctrine taught to the person seeking it, it usually takes the form of such a person discovering the source of the problems themselves and finding their own solutions through the dialogue of the psychiatrist i.e. unless the psychiatrist is very bad, they do not enforce views or opinions on the people seeking their help. Through our current knowledge of the minds structure, they help people help themselves by helping them to articulate their problems. This is a long process that can take many years. Although above I said psychologists. Psychiatrists are different people.
I see the above very different from telling a scared person they are being attacked by an external demon or being which is feeding on their energy.
Firstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.
Secondly, I don't see how building a belief in a neg infestation will help the condition. Apart from rare instances, most of the net is full of how powerful these negs are, how crafty, how hard to beat. By convincing yourself or another of a neg infestation you are setting yourself up for either a lifetime of these symptoms, or a very very long road to recovery.
I also don't see how delegating a problem to a third party (i.e. no longer taking responsibility for its source) is going to help anything. Surely disassociation and a growth of this perceived external entity will ensue?

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You literally have to ask frightened people questions over and over to get a big picture of what is going on. Of course people are going to sound like they're only depressed, you're only getting partial info and part of the picture. You need a lot of info to determine if someone is under attack or mentally unstable. How many illnesses have headache, runny nose, and coughing? Stuff as minor as a cold and as major as something life threatening. That's why you need more info. What if you diagnose a terminally ill person with a cold (sorry, but I see that as being true whether you're in the possession camp or the psych camp, I don't see a difference).

The whole point of my post was the vast majority of websites which talk about negs don't try and get the whole picture. I'd be happy if you could point me to a site or article where the person worried of a neg attack is told it's not, or its just depression. It just doesn't happen. Everything is described as neg attack.
How would you personally differentiate between the thousands of known mental conditions and a valid neg attack?

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What I do know from my own experience is this. I wrote off all my crap as this or that, I always had a very logical explanation for everything. When I say things got bad, THINGS GOT BAD. I couldn't write it off anymore.

When you ask, "Why don't people start with the psych crap first," well I did. I already went down that route, you weren't there for it. And I'll bet'cha people who come looking here have already started with the psych camp route first too. This place sure as hell wasn't my first choice.

Out of curiosity, how many years of therapy did you go through? If that's too personal, what was the exact psych diagnosis of your condition? Don't just say depression, as to see a psych the condition would be more involved then the blanket statement 'depression'. I'm curious to know what they thought.

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What I mean is: Don't make assumptions about people. It's hard enough communicating when you're freaked, don't make it harder by not listening.

I haven't made assumptions. You've made assumptions on what I've written.
From a personal perspective, a hell of a lot of what I've seen classed as symptoms of neg attack I've experienced at times in my life. And not for a single second did I think I was being attacked by an external force, and I overcame these problems through learning about the problem, observing and letting the energies go which were creating them.

My whole point was, yes there might be neg conditions, but from what I've seen on the net, people are too ready to blame negs for everything.

MisterJingo

Quote from: AndromacheI don't know about the whole mind over matter thing.  :roll:

I dismissed all my original experiences in the beginning until it all seemed to tumble down on top of me and I had no choice but to look.

I mean, like, if THINKING they're real creates them, why doesn't the opoosite happen. When I didn't believe in them, why didn't they disappear.

Did that make sense or am I sounding like my usual blonde, bubble headed self?  :lol:

I guess for the same reason a traumatic experience doesn't go away by just stopping believing it happened. Memories and events form structure in the mind which affects other areas. Giving belief to a condition usually sees its effect grow and it become more dominant. Even ignoring such a thing but having fear of it sees the fear make it grow.
And yes I have had first hand experience of this (to do with visual hallucinations which I've seen classed as 'neg attack' in other places – which weren't).
The way to overcome these self built conditions is to slowly take away the energy you fed them, move your attention from them and don't feed them positive or negative emotions. It can take a lot longer for such a condition to be removed then it did to build it. For example, the hallucinations I was seeing (I still see them very slight now) took around 6 years to reduce to almost unnoticeable. During their peak, where I constantly focused on them (it was hard not to) they became more powerful and noticeable until they dominated my every waking moment.

I just find it amazing that people are happy to accept the creative power of the mind, those that believe in the astral accept thought can create anything, yet they are unwilling to accept we can create our own negs.
We each have the creator in us, but people don't want to think we can create bad as well as good (which are both relative terms and mean nothing outside of the emotion/scope we give them).


Edit: I would just like to add that if an underlying condition created a neg belief (and saw the condition delegated to a 'neg'), removing the self created structure most likely won't remove the underlying condition. Help should be sought.

Andromache

QuoteFirstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.
Secondly, I don't see how building a belief in a neg infestation will help the condition. Apart from rare instances, most of the net is full of how powerful these negs are, how crafty, how hard to beat. By convincing yourself or another of a neg infestation you are setting yourself up for either a lifetime of these symptoms, or a very very long road to recovery.
I also don't see how delegating a problem to a third party (i.e. no longer taking responsibility for its source) is going to help anything. Surely disassociation and a growth of this perceived external entity will ensue?

I don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?

These things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.

If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.

Nothing personal but it sounds like you made your structure around one concept and you're applying it to everything. Like making the world in your image instead of seeing what is actually there. You don't give people enough credit, they're smarter than you think.

And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.

Sorry but when you start defining people instead of interacting with them I don't call that mental health, I call that delusional.

MisterJingo

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I don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?

I didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.

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These things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.

Can you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them?
The mind is a hell of a more complex structure than you give it credit for.
Are you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?

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If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.

The above makes no sense in the context of the argument.

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Nothing personal but it sounds like you made your structure around one concept and you're applying it to everything. Like making the world in your image instead of seeing what is actually there. You don't give people enough credit, they're smarter than you think.

I take nothing for granted, and I happily dismiss belief systems which no longer hold weight. I used to be a full believer in many things such as neg attacks, but experience has taught me things are not always what they seem.
I won't take things personally, but you yourself seem unwilling to see any other view and are holding on to your beliefs just as you accuse me of holding on to mine.

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And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.

Have you any photos of these markings?
But even this does not prove anything. There has been evidence of belief alone creating markings upon the body (stigmata is one of the most known manifestations of this.)

Andromache

QuoteThe above makes no sense in the context of the argument.

Yes it does: the actions I described are INTERACTION with reality. You initiate actions in order to interact with objects, with people and other things. The same is true in reverse.

QuoteHave you any photos of these markings?
But even this does not prove anything.

Ah, poisoning the well, bad arguing style.

No I don't have photos because as frightened as I was at the time my safety was chief concern, not physical proof. I still had no idea what was happening to me, but I ruled out schizophrenia by this point. And I re-iterate, I did not believe in things like this. So how was it created? This is the opposite of what you're describing. The horse is before the cart.

We are not just logical beings or mental beings. We are mental, emotional, spiritual and physical. All of these are important working together. You've cut everything else off except the mental and made your home there. You took one piece of life and made it your entire existence.

QuoteAre you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?

Do you think everything in the astral is a thought form?

Is everything in the astral your creation?

Yes there are things out there that are sentient and independent of you that are not thought forms and do what they need to do to survive. Here's a hint, I don't astral project (not on my own anyway). My crap came out of the astral, I didn't go in after it. Sorry, but I live on the physical plane and have to create actions and interact with reality to get stuff. I don't think it and it happens.

Tell me something, when suggestions on these other astral sites are made, do they really say, "You have a neg, you need to do this now." Or do they say, "Well, try this and see what happens?" And if it is mind over matter, why do things intensify or get worse when something deemed neg offensive is intiated? Shouldn't it get better, it's mind over matter right, the salt bath will fix my problem. How are the replies phrased. Are they really forcing possession stuff, or leaving room for this or that to be and allowing people to come to their own conclusions about who they are and what is happening to them. Are you just over reacting and hypersensitized every time you hear neg?

Syncro

Neither of you are providing proof of anything really, you are both bullheadedly standing right where you want to mentally on this argument, not giving either person any room for argument. I think I can get a good amount of evidence though.

QuoteRegardless of your spiritual beliefs, the fact that we have a brain, (which to all our knowledge effects how we experience the physical or even if we experience it all) means that defects or changes to the brain can effect our mind and view of reality. I have seen many posts by people who seem to be very depressed, and they're given advice such as taking salt baths and burning incense etc when the best course of action would be to find a good psychologist.

Having lost a very large post because my pop up blocker didn't wish to allow the spell checker to do it's work, I find myself writing this for the second time.

There are in fact very brilliant people with No Brain, however, your argument still stand. I am going to assume we can claim that we have a psychology and that it has been proven.

IF our psychology changes THEN it gets info and experiences from outside sources, we know this already.

IF outside sources change us THEN any outside source can act as a trigger for healing or destruction, thus we don't know the effects of salt baths psychologically. It has been shown by science that Jacuzzis have healings effects on the mind, however.

QuoteWe then should take into account the complexity of the mind and how it is formed, and even how childhood experiences can affect a person for their life. Just look at conditions such as multiple personality syndrome to see how many 'individuals?? can seem to inhabit the same mind. How easy would it be to accuse such a condition as possession? To just blanket term a multitude of very complicated conditions as a neg problem can cause more harm then good.

By the very definition of the word is this not a possession issue?

Quote from: WikipediaPossession is having some degree of control over something else. Generally, to possess something, a person must have an intention to possess it. A person may be in possession of some property (although possession does not always imply ownership). Like ownership, the possession of things is commonly regulated by states under property law. Languages have several means to indicate possession.

Multiple people in one body creates a problem with the above, I'm afraid. Also, if one personality is negative it could be argued there are neg problems too....

QuoteI also feel that people can create seeming independent negs through continued belief in such a neg. By this I mean they create a thought form over time. Those of a susceptible mindset could do this a lot quicker.

Any evidence of this? If true, then we can state that there are in fact negs, and thus the thread has come to what it was made for. But, to further this:

IF one can create seeming independent negs THEN such things, under definition and workings of a thought form, do in fact become independent over time. This is called an egrogore and said egrogores can be made from many situations. If an egrogore can be made from a thought form then it can affect things externally, and if an egrogore can be made by multiple people then the whole neg mess does, indeed, become as complex as the sites you mentioned stated. None of this is proven, however. I want to see compelling evidence first! this is one page on egregores I have found, there are many more:

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/gegregor.html

QuoteWhat if someone's a psychic vamp before they die? Do they carry on draining others' energies?

Indeed, a broader question would be would negative people continue their negativity after death? Would this affect other people still living?

QuoteFirstly, there seems to be little agreement anywhere on these demonic or neg forces. Every guru has their opinion, has their own treatment and most are very happy to overlook areas where natural phenomena explain the conditions.

This could simply be appearances because of use of multiple words which mean the same thing or multiple ways of handling a problem.

QuoteThese things do exist externally to oneself, like you. The comments and arguments you are making sound like a person is a bubble that forms on it's own without outside stimuli. The world is a hell of a lot more complex in structure than you give it credit. You have structures and you're interacting with other structures. And you are not the only one with responsiblity, others have responsiblity too (and interact with you), and you interact with that also.

If I walk to a door, I can't physcially walk through it, I have to interact with my environment. I have to grab the doorknob, turn it, and pull or push the door open depending on how the door functions. You interact with reality and sometimes reality pushes back. Am I delegating my personal responsiblity to a third party because I have to interact with a door.

Makes sense, if like the door the neg is external then you can't force it down with disbelief alone.

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And yeah, I did the psych route several times. I gave up after being repeatedly told I didn't fit any classic pattern of mental illness or depression. Final straw came when I got bit by something invisible, not a hallucination, that was physical stimuli and markings.

Here is some compelling evidence, though it won't prove anything I would like to hear about these markings. How bad were they?

QuoteI didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.

QuoteCan you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them?

.... you kinda just contradicted yourself a bit. Can I get evidence from BOTH sides here? Please show me the article you found the most compelling on this if you would be so kind, I would be interested in reading it!

QuoteAre you now stating that when I create wake initiated lucid dreams and I interact with mind constructs I create, and who appear perfectly sentient and independent, that these things I've just created actually exist independently of me?

Truth be told you don't know one way or another. Belief is another story.

QuoteI don't think negs are belief systems, I think they're something you interact with. I'm interacting with you right now while typing, are you one of my belief systems? Can I just change you at my whim while interacting with you now, or do you have your own mind and will that I have to interact and adjust to?

Again, belief. Sorry I skipped around a bit but I want to make this as short as possible, as eventually it will get very long winded here it seems.

MisterJingo

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Yes it does: the actions I described are INTERACTION with reality. You initiate actions in order to interact with objects, with people and other things. The same is true in reverse.

I mean. What has that got to do with the reality or not of thought forms or belief systems?

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Ah, poisoning the well, bad arguing style.

I am not poisoning any well. To be a cynic, I have known too many people on the net who either exaggerate or tell lies to back up their beliefs. That's one of the problems of the internet; we don't know the other person. So why is it unreasonable to ask for evidence of claims?

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No I don't have photos because as frightened as I was at the time my safety was chief concern, not physical proof. I still had no idea what was happening to me, but I ruled out schizophrenia by this point. And I re-iterate, I did not believe in things like this. So how was it created? This is the opposite of what you're describing. The horse is before the cart.

Ok a scenario (not saying it is yours):
Person A is very stressed, depressed and potentially suffering from hallucinations. These manifestations are difficult to ignore, so person A pays constant attention to them which reinforces them and makes them more pronounced. This is a negative cycle of reinforcement. Person A soon reaches a state near breaking point where their body is suffering extreme stress too. This brings out rashes, or odd markings (I've seen this happen).

Is that an impossible scenario?

To further it:
Later person A is told they are being attacked by a neg. Now he has something to latch his condition on, even if its not a potentially nice explanation, he can sort through his memories and soon sees a pattern of what could be neg attacks. Even those strange markings could have been caused by negs.


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We are not just logical beings or mental beings. We are mental, emotional, spiritual and physical. All of these are important working together. You've cut everything else off except the mental and made your home there. You took one piece of life and made it your entire existence.

Please. How do you know I have taken one piece of life and made it my existence? I have been projecting since earliest childhood. I still project now. I have had experiences with gods, devils, angels, aliens etc. Just do a search on my previous posts. Please don't make assumptions as to my outlook and beliefs just by my stance on this issue.

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Do you think everything in the astral is a thought form?

I really don't know. People who claim they do are just basing that opinion upon belief.

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Is everything in the astral your creation?

It depends on the view you take. If you take the view that we are everything, then on the greatest scale, then yes it is all our creation. On the smaller scale, once again I can't say. All I do know is the astral is very different to each person who experiences it, and even the same event can be interpreted very differently dependant on the person who experiences it and their belief systems.

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Yes there are things out there that are sentient and independent of you that are not thought forms and do what they need to do to survive. Here's a hint, I don't astral project (not on my own anyway). My crap came out of the astral, I didn't go in after it. Sorry, but I live on the physical plane and have to create actions and interact with reality to get stuff. I don't think it and it happens.

But you still have a mind. A lot of the astral is interaction with the subconscious mind. Each and every one of us is much bigger then this small conscious ego. Just because we don't think certain things doesn't mean to say there aren't such undercurrents in the subconscious.

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Tell me something, when suggestions on these other astral sites are made, do they really say, "You have a neg, you need to do this now." Or do they say, "Well, try this and see what happens?" And if it is mind over matter, why do things intensify or get worse when something deemed neg offensive is intiated? Shouldn't it get better, it's mind over matter right, the salt bath will fix my problem. How are the replies phrased. Are they really forcing possession stuff, or leaving room for this or that to be and allowing people to come to their own conclusions about who they are and what is happening to them.

Many do say "you need to do this now".
And these things might intensify because you are facing whatever structure, pain, fear, emotional distress is causing this situation face on. Rather than feeling sits edges you are facing it full in the face. So there could be a flare up or worsening of symptoms.
And no, many do not allow people to come to their own conclusions. On other forms I've had people in public and by PM actually trying to convince me I'm being attacked by negs, or things from my past are the result of neg attack. Also there generally seems to be a large anti-science stance on many forums where people do not look at all the alternatives as science can threaten some of their beliefs, so they choose to ignore what science can teach us and teach neg attacks are the source of the problems (when infact they might not be).

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Are you just over reacting and hypersensitized every time you hear neg?

If I was, I would be posting in neg sections regularly stating my argument and arguing with others. I simply saw a post where people asked for points of view on the neg problem. Then suddenly you attack me. I attacked no one. I even stated I can see that negs might exist. But because my views threaten your neg view you launched an attack on my beliefs.
The reason I don't post here regularly is because I am of the mind that people should be free to follow their own beliefs as long as they don't infringe on anyone's personal freedom.

MisterJingo

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Neither of you are providing proof of anything really, you are both bullheadedly standing right where you want to mentally on this argument, not giving either person any room for argument. I think I can get a good amount of evidence though.

As you yourself stated in your first post, it will be near impossible to find any proof of this.  My stance is there might be negs, but I haven't seen any first hand evidence, and a lot of neg activity can be explained.
What form of evidence are you hoping to get?

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http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm


Please can you quote something with sources? My partner works in medicine and just last week a child was brought into her hospital that had little to no brain. The parents knew this during pregnancy but wished to go to full term. Since the child was born it has shown no autonomous action apart from automatic breathing. It has little flexibility and reacts with nothing. This alone disputes that un-cited webpage.
I know about hydrocephalus, it is better known as 'water on the brain'. Children can die early from this condition as fluid builds up in the brain cavity, stopping the brain from developing. There are some cases where the child didn't die, but the water forced their brain to grow along the inside of the skull, leaving the centre of the head a fluid filled hollow. They still had the same percentage of brain matter, it was just distributed differently. I think the page you quoted is just exaggerating such a condition to meet its own agenda (again, there are no references to anything, just vague suggestions of universities.
I think to suggest we don't need a brain is just silly else millions with severe brain trauma would not be killed. Or people who become brain-dead or ended up in vegetative states wouldn't be in those conditions.

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By the very definition of the word is this not a possession issue?

Not at all. Possession is an external entity taking over the body. Multiple personality syndrome seems to be multiple personalities arising internally, possibly from server trauma as a child creating a persona which ignore the pain, and the personalities seemingly grow separately over time.

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Any evidence of this? If true, then we can state that there are in fact negs, and thus the thread has come to what it was made for. But, to further this:

IF one can create seeming independent negs THEN such things, under definition and workings of a thought form, do in fact become independent over time. This is called an egrogore and said egrogores can be made from many situations. If an egrogore can be made from a thought form then it can affect things externally, and if an egrogore can be made by multiple people then the whole neg mess does, indeed, become as complex as the sites you mentioned stated. None of this is proven, however. I want to see compelling evidence first! this is one page on egregores I have found, there are many more:

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/gegregor.html

Well the same evidence can be stated from that which can create multiple personalities. Just because a neg is given life in the mind does not in fact mean external negative entities exist.

And that site you quoted literally could mean 'Mob rule' not a literal connective group consciousness. Do a google on group interactions and how terrible deeds can be caused by a mob which would not usually be caused by any individuals of the mob on their own. If we to take it as more then that, once again it's a belief with no proof to back it up.

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I didn't say negs are belief systems. I said negs can be created through belief. This is well documented. Look up thought form creation and just see how autonomous these self created forms can be, and how they can become independent of the one who created them.

Can you show me any single shred of evidence these things exist independently of the person experiencing them

.... you kinda just contradicted yourself a bit. Can I get evidence from BOTH sides here? Please show me the article you found the most compelling on this if you would be so kind, I would be interested in reading it!

Where was the contradiction? I am talking about internal existence, not independent existence outside of the mind who created them. By independence I mean the person who created them seems to have no control over them i.e. they are independent.

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Truth be told you don't know one way or another. Belief is another story.

But that's the problem. I don't think you will find any form of evidence on this outside of personal belief. If there was, this discussion wouldn't be happening.
My only point was, a lot of what is called neg activity can be explained naturally.

Nay

Let's face it, we're never going to be able to agree upon this one.  

When I first found this site, three years ago I was naive about conscience projections, even though I had at that point been meditating for 15 or so years and had been experiencing spontaneous projections since around the age of 5yr.  And Lucid dreaming was me just dreaming, I thought everyone could control what went on in them.  

I spent many years being chased by Zombies and unseen monsters.  So....I do know that these negs exist, I never said they didn't.  But I have said that the people whom keep finding themselves victims over and over again are doing nothing more than creating the monsters themselves.  Of course this is met with great defensiveness, as if I'm taking away a favorite toy or drug.

What ticks me off to no end and why I keep sticking my nose in it.  :razz: is the fact that young and impressionable people are being scared, right out of the gate, by chronic negative people.  They're not even givin the chance to see that it's their own fears causing the nightmares, or their own fears seeing that shadowy figure while spontaneously projecting.  And right away they get caught up in the drama, adrenaline rush or attention that is received.  I'm pretty sure a lot of these youngsters are lacking the correct attention from home, hopefully through no fault of their own and I can understand how it would feel to be accepted into the fold.

But instead of being the victim, learn from it, take control and turn your back on it....stop feeding the darkness, it's time to feed the light.

Nay

Syncro

QuoteAs you yourself stated in your first post, it will be near impossible to find any proof of this. My stance is there might be negs, but I haven't seen any first hand evidence, and a lot of neg activity can be explained.
What form of evidence are you hoping to get?

Any and all, from both sides if possible. Preferring factual evidence here though. You might have noticed my IF-THEN statements, I am trying to come to a logical conclusion based on facts. Haven't gotten very far as of yet but hoping to get some input from members :)

QuotePlease can you quote something with sources? My partner works in medicine and just last week a child was brought into her hospital that had little to no brain. The parents knew this during pregnancy but wished to go to full term. Since the child was born it has shown no autonomous action apart from automatic breathing. It has little flexibility and reacts with nothing. This alone disputes that un-cited webpage.
I know about hydrocephalus, it is better known as 'water on the brain'. Children can die early from this condition as fluid builds up in the brain cavity, stopping the brain from developing. There are some cases where the child didn't die, but the water forced their brain to grow along the inside of the skull, leaving the centre of the head a fluid filled hollow. They still had the same percentage of brain matter, it was just distributed differently. I think the page you quoted is just exaggerating such a condition to meet its own agenda (again, there are no references to anything, just vague suggestions of universities.
I think to suggest we don't need a brain is just silly else millions with severe brain trauma would not be killed. Or people who become brain-dead or ended up in vegetative states wouldn't be in those conditions.

That came from a simple google search on "no brain." It's a bit off topic anyway, my apologies. If interested:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hm8kRO6S7WUJ:www.metafilter.com/mefi/26688+%22No+Brain%22+human&hl=en

These individuals reference quite a bit.

QuoteWhere was the contradiction? I am talking about internal existence, not independent existence outside of the mind who created them. By independence I mean the person who created them seems to have no control over them i.e. they are independent.

You did clearly state that they become independent in the first quote, actually.

QuoteThe reason I don't post here regularly is because I am of the mind that people should be free to follow their own beliefs as long as they don't infringe on anyone's personal freedom.

Well said! I do hope however you do not leave this discussion, as I believe you are contributing quite a bit!

QuoteLet's face it, we're never going to be able to agree upon this one.

I have not come to any logical conclusion yet, if you were referring to me that is. I believe it is possible to come to a logical conclusion here bereft of belief.

Syncro

Surely someone is interested in exploring this matter, anyone?

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I think it's pretty foolish to say "they are only thought-forms." The people that do this are just taking the extreme they're fighting against, to the opposite extreme.

Why? First, because everyone has a different set of experiences, so just because you've experienced only one side of the coin doesn't mean another side of the coin doesn't exist. It's like people who claim "there is no such thing as god". For that to be an accurate statement, that person would have to know and understand everything possible so he could point out what isn't there. Quite egotistical.

I personally don't know the answer, but IMO anyone who states one way or the other EXPLICITLY is probably wrong, due to the only fact of reality I would admit to "knowing": everything is possible.

Here is a strong argument I will state for "negs are independent of our thought":
Are there people out there on the physical earth that like to hurt other people? If you answer yes, why would you be so opposed to the idea that there are "similar people" in a different dimension of existence, or whatever it could be called.

IMHO, they both exist. But I'm never more than 99.9% sure on anything...

dingo

I don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. It's the whole subjective experience thing. So, I prefer to belief that they are thought-forms and/or in the mind as it gives me more power over them.
I seriously doubt this debate will actually get anywhere.

Syncro

Quote from: dingoI don't think it's possible to prove it one way or the other. It's the whole subjective experience thing. So, I prefer to belief that they are thought-forms and/or in the mind as it gives me more power over them.
I seriously doubt this debate will actually get anywhere.

Only because of the attitude being put forth?

I have been reading that supposedly people have seen them crawling under their skin, controlling their movements, and re-writing their brain, surely this could be observed?

QuoteWhy? First, because everyone has a different set of experiences, so just because you've experienced only one side of the coin doesn't mean another side of the coin doesn't exist. It's like people who claim "there is no such thing as god". For that to be an accurate statement, that person would have to know and understand everything possible so he could point out what isn't there. Quite egotistical.

"You can only prove an existence, you cannot prove a non-existence." In other words, even if there is only one case of this being real, that still proves their existence over disproving their existence. I do agree that everyone's experiences count for something though!

The fact that I am not seeing too much compelling evidence is a hint that these things don't exist in my humble opinion, but I patiently wait :)

Nay

Patiently await what?  I think we've done this one to death.  I know since I've been here it's been an on going debate and that was three years ago, so  as you can see, it looks like people don't want to argue about it anymore.

Nay

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Quote from: Syncro
"You can only prove an existence, you cannot prove a non-existence."

Exactly, which means you cannot say something "doesn't exist" and be sure of it. If one seriously argues "XYZ doesn't exist" or worse "XYZ can't exist" then it just shows a closed perception.


What I don't understand is how people can say the idea of "negs" is "ridiculous" when obviously there are people out there in "physical reality" that would care to harm you. Now why would it be absurd to assume in other "dimensions" there aren't the same things? Absolute wishful thinking perhaps?

I would understand if people said "they might exist externally, but you have more power over yourself than they do.." but most people say either yes or no to their existence. Perhaps it's not so black and white? Yet even if someone believed "we" have more power over "them," that still doesn't mean the possibility of a still more powerful external being is outlandish. For example on the astral dynamics forums it seems to be the general belief that "negs" do exist but we have power over them, or we can defeat them. Yet the possibility of more powerful beings that can completely destroy us is not ruled out, in fact if we are to believe some cases, there may be beings that can indeed completely rip us apart and leave us helpless.

I think it's good to be open to possibility instead of starting a religion against what one perceives to be a religion.

CFTraveler

I guess my two cents on the topic is this:
It doesn't matter if they're real or not.
To quote Dr. Phil, about your beliefs about them: "How's that workin' for ya?"
If denying their existence works, then go ahead.
If believing they exist and taking countermeasures work, then go ahead.

The question is, what works for who?
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.

I hope I'm done!  :popcorn:

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Quote from: CFTraveler
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.

I agree. But if someone is having a problem and someone else tells them their problem can't exist in a certain way that may be possibly existing...   :eh?:

as long as that doesn't happen

CFTraveler

Quote from: question
Quote from: CFTraveler
If a person has a problem, how can they be helped?
I think this should be the thing to focus on.

I agree. But if someone is having a problem and someone else tells them their problem can't exist in a certain way that may be possibly existing...   :eh?:
as long as that doesn't happen
Then they aren't being helpful, and the person with the problem should move on...
(I guess I wasn't really done) :help:

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