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Do they Exist, or Not?

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Nay

Quote from: soulsome people come into contact with these things they don't understand...and i'm here for those only. to help curb the fear, help alleviate some misunderstandings, and i'm capable of seeing the seriousness as well...where it comes into play in peoples waking lives.
That is great, if it were what you were really doing.  When someone comes here and talks about a fear of some shadow or a pain that just appeared after they try to project, you and others right away jump in and start telling them all these horrifying things instead of what could be just normal experiences one has when starting to explore the astral.  The seriousness is NOT looking for the most negative answer but searching for the light in the situation.

Quote from: soulthere's one mentality i just can't seem to accept (though i try). it's a combination of extreme arrogance & ignorance at once. if someone is confronted with any experience, but in this example...a negative one (a demon, a neg, an injury, or disturbance of some kind). it is neither my place to attempt to turn them away from that experience, define it for them, belittle them for it, or manipulate it for my idea of a greater good)...i believe any of those actions are most destructive. a person enters into ANY situation in order to learn and increased their understanding. curbing that is no ones right, and to me...it's a huge sign of the most severely obsessed observer. the one attempting to do god's work...even god doesn't get involved in the lessons.

Yeah, you're not turning them away.... you are trying to get them to embrace it, which IMO is wrong in so many ways.  You are not increasing their understanding.....you are increasing their dependence on being the victim instead of letting them know, THEY have the power to take control and understand their fears.  And I'm sorry, but you haven't tried to understand as much as you try to belittle and ridicule people whom are in agreement with me...well except James..lol.  You still haven't figured out he is saying the same thing as me but surrounds it with candy and flowers.  Which of course would work for me!  We are after all talking about James, the cutie pie. :grin:

Quote from: souli don't understand why this necessarily sets me so far apart?!? why this function gets so deep under the skin of few people in particular. a lot of fear to deal with yet...i guess. a lot of insecurities, and not enough FAITH in other peoples abilities!?! i'm not trying to get rich off anyone elses distress, nor i am poking fun at a trauma, or pushing the extremely limit view of mental dis-ability. i'm not pushing anything at all.
YOU set yourself apart.   I tried in the beginning to be light hearted but was met with ridicule and personal attacks.  Now I'm done being all fluffy bunny with you because it's obvious that you deal with and understand anger better.  It's getting almost sad how you don't see the proverbial white elephant standing right in front of you.  I've dealt with my fears, it's time you start dealing with yours.

Quote from: soulpeople allow themselves to be lead astray, people feel stuck bcuz they don't want to leave the cage, and some people needlessly put themselves in negative situations again and again for the drama & rush.
So...you were listening to at least some of what I've been saying over the months.  Couldn't agree more.

Quote from: souli see the opportunity at vastly broader understandings.
and it's about time.
been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and like I said, it's time to get tough.  Ya think perhaps you could practice what you preach?

I know I've said this several times and I'm sure I'll say it again and again.  It  is a lot easier to be the depressed victim, to look for the worst in any given situation, use excuses and to find evil in everything, then to look within and see what you are doing to cause these fears and symptoms.....because I know all too well that means you have to get real and honest with yourself and I do understand that it can be physically painful.  I used hide behind the victim when I was younger, but something in me just wouldn't allow it to keep happening... I wanted more out of life.

Quote from: soulas most here know...i've been 'afflicted' for roughly thirty years.
thirty years??  damn girl, aren't you tired of being the victim?   It only works for so long....being the victim and recieving pity from others.  Do you enjoy people thinking you are so weak you can't even run your life?  I'm sure there are lessons in what is happening to everyone, but one needs to stop taking lessons sooner or later and begin to put it into practice.  So turn your back on those demons, negs, devil, and aliens.  Life will be just as satisfying.  But then again...I'm not sure what you will have to talk about then.  Perhaps we can work on getting new topics for you to ponder on, huh?  :wink:

Nay

Souljah333

my god nay...just shut up about it already. you're being too obvious.
it's sad. james isn't the one attempting to cover up his actions. it's you.
(always projecting). not only is your 'observer' the most important thing in your existence, but you want to hang that stench on everyone else as well.
(i'm not mad...i'm just tired)
Quoteas much as you try to belittle and ridicule people whom are in agreement with me
girl...you're slippin'!

i'm not going to respond to the rest, bcuz 1) you have no idea what i do & 2) the above statement pretty much sums up how your mind works.
(now matter what i try to say to someone that's paranoid...they're going to take it as an attack) that's fine all the more power to you, and all that. you stay "right" where you're at, and i'll just keep moving along.
as for the 30 yrs. it's my astral experience in total. some folks just seem interested in 'dragging' the negative out of it...not me.
(it was a play on words...not a ply for sympathy).

anyway...
i think anyone with an ounce of intellect can read between the lines of your post and see a real life neg at work. i don't have to go out of my way to point out anything. you do a much better job of it than i ever could.

sorry for YOUR pain.
soul.
NEW (again) MYSTICMYSFITS.COM

Rob

MJ I wasnt going to reply to your post, but I am actually slightly hacked off, and am now going to speak a very small portion of my mind to you. Well, at least at first I was hacked off, especially after reading your post a few more times, but now I see the humour in it. Knew I would find a laugh sooner or later!! So thanks for the chuckle!!!!!! But before I start my reply proper, I would like to introduce a little fwiend of miwne to you.....be warned, dont mess!!!!!!


:locolaugh:
Anyway where was I.......   :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :soapbox2: ....
- evidently compulsory soapbox: check!
- smilies prostrating themselves at my godliness: check!

Right! Let the rant begin!! :boxing2:

QuoteAnd as I said, you would dismiss what I said because you are caught in your own belief system.

Sorry bro but nothing in your post was new to me - not one sentence! The reason I can dismiss your points is because I can, and believe I just did, comprehensively dismantle every argument you forwarded. Belief is irrelevant, we are talking logic here, and IMO you're arguments were kinda short in that regard. Sorry but thats the way I see it. Oh yeah, and I could say exactly the same as your above comment back at you, but it doesnt get us anywhere, which is why I purposefully avoided commenting on this the first time you said it.
You know, I even started trying to convince myself to try on your beliefs, to see how they fitted, until after a while I realised again that they relied only on a combination of coincidental factors all coming together at the right times and places, none of which happened on virtually any other occasion, leading to an explanation which could not fully explain what I went through anyway. That you had to resort to saying "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" is very telling indeed. The second of many ego and belief driven statements that can be aimed in both directions but ultimately get us nowhere.

QuoteThe line of reasoning you give is akin to the brain is a product of the mind. The great thing about that is you can ignore everything, and believe what you want cause there is no arguing with it.

Eh? Well yes I do think that consciousness goes beyond the brain, thank you for noticing this and pointing it out! And I have good reason to hold this opinion, though I aint going to lower something so precious into this debate....But! I fail to see how your point has anything to do with anything you are arguing for - quite the opposite, as I see it, it implies a much higher degree of power for the mind, and the ability to create my own experiences.

QuoteI guess I choose not to live in such a closed world view.

The second implication of this is that I do. Get real!!!! On both points. I am the one saying something is possible, you are saying its not. I fail to see how that makes you "open minded"!!!!!  :wink:
And as for my not accepting your arguments (ie being closed to them), I have covered that already. Like I said, the same principle applies to your attitudes, only your logic is not as strong, so I would say it applies to you more than I....

QuoteIf you know as much as you say, then you also know that belief and expectation is paramount in astral experiences.

Again, this has little to do with anything, and is nothing more than yet another cheap get out clause... In every single example I gave, and I stated this clearly and explicitly a number of times in an evidently futile attempt to pre-squish this point of contention, I was not expecting the results I got, or the experiences that happened (and neither was my Dad). With the slight exception of when I saw that thing standing at the bottom of my bed, since I already had a good inkling that negs were real by that point, but in no way was I obsessing over this fact at the time. Conversely, in the days and weeks following, I fully admit to being properly scared at night going to bed but guess what? No more neg sightings!!! Wow how does that work??? I mean, if your reasoning were correct, then I should have been swamped by nightmares and things standing around my bed. Huh yeah isnt it odd that I wasnt??? Wonder why that is HHMmmmm.....could it be that I actually saw something real, and not something that was a figment of my imagination - which is in essence all you are saying? If this was my imagination, its very odd how I have only ever imagined up a couple of negs, isnt it? And never seen anything else??? FfffffFFfffffs... trust me my imagination extends way beyond negs, but I dont tend to see 5 mile tall gleaming white castles out my window when I wake up (damn hehe wish I did tho that would be cool).
And just incase I am not making a strong enough argument backed with experience, when I had the quick attack, with the weird green thing above me, I was actually under the assumption ("belief" if you like) that the running water barrier I was sleeping over would filter that sort of thing out. So again, your accusation is aaaahhhhh "not entirely compatible with reality"....
Oh yeah, and using this argument allows you to neatly sweep aside any evidence I can put to you that you dont like the sound of (I thought the addition of my fathers experiences would filter this out, guess I was wrong), so its not so much as an argument, as a....well....like I said....an easy get out clause.

Now, unless you have something really nice, exceedingly compelling, or intentionally funny to say - and are prepared to filter out all the underhand, hidden snipes in your posts before hitting "submit", be a good boy and dont reply to me on this aye? (Or else I might release Fluffy on you, and then you'll be sorry!!!). I would much rather this sorry excuse for a debate we are having ended here. I seriously doubt continuing it will take us anywhere constructive, I feel like I am ....:wall: . But then, I should have remembered that its impossible to challenge beliefs and expect change, or even expect to come out of it not smelling of "au de sewage".

<dismounts soapbox and orders minions to clear orf>
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!

Nay

:lol: What, I don't get to be yelled at too?

Why are you so upset Rob?  I really fail to see what you are so upset about..  I can't speak for MJ but my opinion is that there are negs, but not on the colossal scale that seems to be happening.  And that alot of problems can be avoided by not giving it any energy.. kinda like what you mean when you say giving this argument energy.  This has pretty much been my standing all along.. I'm just having to repeat it different ways every so often. :razz:

Are you having problems to date?   In all the time I've known you, you've never mentioned neg problems and I never realized that it was this emotional for you...  Are there other things going on in your life that might not be so positive that could be causing the upset?

Does the prospect of you being the catalyst for negs bothering you really upset you that much?  I know I can ask you these question and not have to fear you are going to get defensive and then personally attack me....least I hope so.  :shifty:

Basically I guess what I'm asking is what is so upsetting about the belief, understanding, whatever we should call it, that we create or pull negativity towards us?

Thanks,
Nay

PS.. you're freaking me out...lol. never seen ya so upset. Should I be scared?   :scared3:

Rob

:wave: Heey Naay!!!:wave:

Quote from: Nay:lol: What, I don't get to be yelled at too?

RaaAAAaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Better?!
:lol:

Quote from: NayWhy are you so upset Rob?  I really fail to see what you are so upset about..

Do I come across as so upset? I promise its not intended!! I was more trying to be funny while at the same time presenting strong arguments in favour of what I am talking about. Although I do admit to being a tad angry for a very brief period of time when I noticed what I thought were veiled jabs at me. But yeah, guess this is an issue I do feel fairly strongly about.
Oh yeah, and I guess it would be fair to tell you that, if you can categorise people into various personality groups, one way to do so would leave me in the obsessive compulsive group (dont say anything chicken or egg chicken or egg lalalalala), and we types dont like having people telling us we are wrong about things which are close to the heart! In fact, I generally dont talk about things that are close to heart for this very reason. Its hard sometimes.

Quote from: NayAre you having problems to date?

Naa, quite the opposite, my life has taken an upswing of late and things are moving. Which is good!! As for negs, I haven't seen or really thought about the whole thing in quite a while. But ya know, these topic, I thought I should add my experiences since they are varied and IMO compelling.
Yeah, things are peachy at the moment. I am mentally stronger than I have been in quite some time, which is pretty much the only reason I am allowing myself to talk about and argue this subject in such depth, and allow my hot-collared-ness to come out in type.


QuoteDoes the prospect of you being the catalyst for negs bothering you really upset you that much?  I know I can ask you these question and not have to fear you are going to get defensive and then personally attack me....least I hope so.  :shifty:

You stupid stupid evil girl!!!! Hehehe joke joke joke tehehehehe
:bouncy:
Anyhow!
I am afraid I dont fully understand the first question  :grin: . I dont really see myself as a catalyst for negs, but I am not entirely sure I know what you mean by that!

QuoteBasically I guess what I'm asking is what is so upsetting about the belief, understanding, whatever we should call it, that we create or pull negativity towards us?

Absolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".

QuotePS.. you're freaking me out...lol. never seen ya so upset. Should I be scared?   :scared3:

Aww sorry!!!! Noooo dont be scared!! And thanks for your concern!!! Actually, and this might seem kinda twisted from your end, but the fact that I am here and allowing myself to display heady emotions in these forums is more of a good sign. I am very well at the moment thanks Nay, all is well is the Land of Rob.

hearts7

Rob
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!

Nay

Quote from: runlola
Quote from: NayI can't speak for MJ but my opinion is that there are negs, but not on the colossal scale that seems to be happening


it really doesn't seem to be happening on a COLOSSAL scale...
There is a small minority that shows up around here compared
to the rest of the world. It seems you think EVERYONE that posts ANY
experience is just imagining things. What gives you the right or
knowledge to minimize everyone's pain?

If you read up on other sites, yeah, it is happening on a COLOSSAL scale.  I have to admit here that I'm a tad surprised by your comment, yet not completely.   For those whom aren't aware or came late in the game...Runlola has never had high praise for me and that's ok.   I was wondering when you were going to come out of the closet, per-say.  I guess my last post was your undoing...

When have I minimized everyones pain?  Has no one been actually reading what I'm laying down?  

:lol:  I swear I keep getting a flash of the, "mutiny on the bounty"  

Back in the day when I was asked to be a moderator here, I was so grateful.  All the mods were open and kind.....then, well, something happened.

Now allow me to address the next post.  :roll:

Nay

Quote from: robDo I come across as so upset? I promise its not intended!!
yeah...you did and that is why I asked.  I really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind....   where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...

Quote from: robNaa, quite the opposite, my life has taken an upswing of late and things are moving. Which is good!! As for negs, I haven't seen or really thought about the whole thing in quite a while. But ya know, these topic, I thought I should add my experiences since they are varied and IMO compelling.
Yeah, things are peachy at the moment. I am mentally stronger than I have been in quite some time, which is pretty much the only reason I am allowing myself to talk about and argue this subject in such depth, and allow my hot-collared-ness to come out in type.
Nothing wrong with going with feelings and allowing that anger to come out.  We'd all be batty if we didn't allow those truthful emotions to come out!  I'm glad things aren't funky for you at the moment.

Quote from: robYou stupid stupid evil girl!!!! Hehehe joke joke joke tehehehehe
LOL!  yeah, that's it,  let it out.  No need to say joke.  I got the jest of it. :grin:  I admire people being honest with their feelings.. and if you find me evil, then GREAT!    And please think on that for a minute...I mean it...really reflect on it.

Quote from: robI am afraid I dont fully understand the first question Very Happy . I dont really see myself as a catalyst for negs, but I am not entirely sure I know what you mean by that!
I meant catalyst, in the sense that YOU are the beginning....see?

Quote from: robAbsolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".
I've been that 5yr old... has NO ONE read my older posts??? I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.  Frankly, that is reason to be ticked!  But...I got over it and saw that it wasn't time to be seen.  And I DO understand that it is hard to admit/see that owning ones faults is hard... I suppose you didn't read that in my last post. *sigh*

Do you guys actually think I enjoy being hated by you??  Do you actually think I get some sick joy out of it?  ummmmmm... answer..NOOOO!  I spent most of my life....ya know what..never mind.  I started to reach for the "hear my heartbreaking story"  but not today.

I'll own my own pain...

Still adore you Rob... :sunny:

Nay

Quote from: runlolaUm, how do you know when someone is actually having a
neg problem or when they are just imagining things?

that is what I don't understand from you. You say negs exists
but then you treat people as if they all imagining things.

I thought that I read that you saw ghosts, angels or something,
how do you know you are not imagining that?

It's official..no one is reading what I'm saying.  I don't think people imagine things...well, some...let's say, embellish their "attacks" to be cool, victim, whatever...  but negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE!!!  they have nooooooo control over your soul, your being, your brain...NOTHING.   Ok...deep breath..lol...*whewwwwww*

Ok..now I'm hearing twilight zone music.. :lol:

And yes, I've seen ghost, one angel and some negs..LOL!  Change your dark glasses for some lighter color ones.... :pray:

PS.. we are in need of some new emoticons...

MisterJingo

Ok. To start with, I have no interest if you believe negs exist or not. My reply to your first post was simply to put a different spin on instances you have interpreted as neg attacks. My reason for doing this is that I have experienced such things, my father and brother have experienced such things, it's nothing new to me – things like that have been happening to my family for my entire life. I just see no need to attribute it to external entities.
I choose to briefly reply because I didn't want to argue, and my second reply was simply biting my tongue – again, as I don't see any need to start arguments as it's apparent you are fixed in your beliefs.

Quote
Sorry bro but nothing in your post was new to me - not one sentence! The reason I can dismiss your points is because I can, and believe I just did, comprehensively dismantle every argument you forwarded. Belief is irrelevant, we are talking logic here, and IMO you're arguments were kinda short in that regard. Sorry but thats the way I see it. Oh yeah, and I could say exactly the same as your above comment back at you, but it doesnt get us anywhere, which is why I purposefully avoided commenting on this the first time you said it.

Ok. I'll answer parts of your previous post here and I'll use this logic you claim to be using:

----------------------------------------------------------

Quote
Maybe, but thats not the only thing that happened, as you know. What adds credibility is the totality of things that happened that night. Also, I have never had dreams "bleed" into reality like this (well, once before I have woken up and seen a strange looking creature sitting above my curtains, but this is debateable whether it was dream substance or seeing into the astral). Added to the other stuff, and your explanation really doesnt fit.
Side note: The majority of "dream bleed" imo is astral sight. Have friends who get this, and the consistency with which it relates to seeing astral denizens is strong. For instance, they wake and see spiders sitting around, even when their dreams are not even slightly spider related. They dont see 8 foot tall clowns with 6 arms eating spaghetti and petting small furry animals, or whatever it is they were just dreaming about (lol).

Firstly, just because you have never had dream images bleed into reality on the border of sleep doesn't stop it being a possibility. There are countless documented records of this happened, so much so to argue against such a thing as being impossible is just silly IMO.
Now above you talk of Logic, then you make a statement that in your opinion this is "astral sight". This is not a logical fact, it is a belief. Astral sight is a term which has no basis in a logical or scientific framework what-so-ever. It is simply an hypothesis (with no empirical evidence) based upon a belief.
Secondly, seeing spiders is increasingly common in this state. Please just google this. These spiders are not astral beings, they are a well known hallucinatory image related to webbing hallucinations (one of the base forms of hallucination). You can search this out yourself, but if I remember correctly, webbing hallucinations originate from the webbing of veins across they retina – they are usually filtered out of our visual processing but can be seen under certain circumstances. Waking up with a mind full of dreams, seeing webbing, spiders associated to webbing, we see spiders on the pillow/bed etc. Yes I have seen this myself, both the webbing and spiders (I have also seen this in a fevered illness).
Just because many strange experiences have happened together does not necessarily mean there is a link between them. The human mind loves links, it loves patterns, but the patterns it finds do not necessarily have any basis in reality.

SO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn't remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?


Quote
Calling it a "night terror" proves nothing. This is simply the name the scientific community has given to the phenomenon, since they are incapable of considering the other options we are discussing. Also, if you have studied the medical tests on this, the "this area of the brain lights up", or the "lacking x chemical" explanations similarly dont explain anything, they only explore the specifics of whats going on on a physiological level.
IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks. But thats another topic.

I called it a night terror because that's its most common name. I should have just called it sleep paralysis with hypopompic imagery? (or hypnogogic if it was a paralysis gained when falling asleep).
The reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.
The medical explanation for this is simply the mind starts to surface from sleep but the motor control areas of the brain retain their paralysis hold on the muscles – a simple malfunction.
Now your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.


Quote
Oh come on, it "proves" nothing of the sort!!! Once again, calling it "sleep paralysis" is just a sweeping statement that explains nothing. Why cant moving break a neg induced paralysis? No logic here....  

So you want to use logica, yet you want to throw away every shred of scientific evidence and use belief constructs instead. Why?
Isn't "IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks" a sweeping statement too?
The difference is I am trying to fit things in a scientific framework where you are basing observations on belief structures.


Quote
Side note: negs IMO take advantage of natural processes. Sleep paralysis may be a natural process. So just because you wake up paralysed, might not mean its a neg attack granted. Its the combination of stuff that indicates this. The paralysis spread with a very unnatural sense of dread (not something which always happens in instances of sleep paralysis). I have never had bodily paralysis except on this and the other occasion(s) I mentioned, both of which had strong neg indicators.

I have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times, it's a form which is increasingly difficult to break. It seems to me this might be a very deep form of trance i.e. we have awoken but our brain wave state is still perhaps theta or very low and so we have very sluggish responses. This does more often than not have a fear reaction and hallucinations.

I have been experiencing this stuff weekly/multiple times a week since my earliest memories allow. I really have never seen any need to attribute it to negs. In this state I have seen more things than I could possibly ever recount, had strange tactile sensations, things screaming/speaking in my ears. Fear driven hypnopompic scenarios. Why add negs?

Quote
Also, people tend to wake into non-neg-induced sleep paralysis. They dont wake up, hear voices, see something hanging above their bed, and then suddenly get hit by it (paralysis), accompanied by an overwhelming sense of fear.

Yes they can. Please do a search on sleep paralysis case studies.

Quote
No, I wasnt in a state appropriate to getting vibrations (ie my body was tense, I wasnt in a meditative state like I have to be (for hours) before spontaneous vibrations start, there was no mental vibrations "trigger" going off (dont ask, another completely separate topic!) etc etc). Also I am familiar with the sensation of vibrations, and this was not it. There was no surge involved, it was a sudden and instant feeling all over my body, without any other relating sensations, quite unlike anything I have ever felt before. And why on that image but no others, and then fading away next time? No, it makes no sense.

If you imagine that image now, does it cause the same effect? If not, then it might not have been that image but an accumulation of the mental work you were doing which was felt at a time point of that image.
Here are a few examples of similar things to what you experienced:

1) I went and lay on my bed. I only can induce vibrations on my back (sleep paralysis induced vibrations not included). I was lying on my side and thought about taking a nap, not really comfortable yet and I had been on the bed for around 1 minute. I had lots of imagery going on behind my eye lids, and then I saw what seemed like a dance scene, a man was dancing erratically, then suddenly I was hit by vibrations. I also had a visual interpretation of them – it looked like watching an un-tuned TV channel. Out of this a hand formed which was clenched in a fist and it opened in front of my face. I now pulled out of a paralysis which had formed and sat up to write the experience down.

2) I was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness. This hit me out of nowhere. For about half an hour afterwards I was paranoid and convinced a flat mate had spiked my drink with ecstasy (they hadn't). This experienced lasted for about 4 hours and was pretty extreme.

There is a lot more than the above, but they show instances where vibrations or weird sensations can hit without warning. I didn't feel the need to attribute them to a neg, just to the complexities of the mind.

I'm not going to pretend I or even science knows everything. It will carry on learning forever. Just because something might not explain a certain situation now, does not mean such a thing is outside of sciences scope. A lot more than you and I know has been discovered, it's just a lot of it doesn't make it into the public domain. I read scientific journals frequently, and I am amazed at how much phenomena has been explained which I had no idea about – and yes, some of it explains experiences I've had.

Quote
And induced a sickness by belief? You're kidding me, right?!!!? My brother is a trained doctor. Thats his profession, one which he passed every exam for with flying colours (oodles of distinctions etc etc). I told him about what I was doing after I heard about Dads "food poisoning" (btw, my bro is very sceptical regarding all these things). Even he didnt have the cheek to suggest this!! Although admittedly we were talking more about how my dad was getting the same feelings as I was, but still.
Oh yeah, and there are no other instances of my dad getting an illness synchronous with me getting one. Oh and I wasnt ill when I covered my body in sacred symbols, but he came out with rashes, in the same synchronous fashion. Which rules out the option that I caused it in him. No, there really is no simple explanation for this.

My sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion? Rather than dig up literally thousands of documents which say the opposite, I could use a personal example of my niece. She kept getting sick, and after years of tests there was literally nothing wrong with her (and no, no negs here).
With more investigation it turned out she can make herself be sick just from the desire to do so, she used this as an attention seeking ploy – the reason for which am personal and I'll not go into here.
We are talking about negs here not all instances of paranormal activity. I agree it's interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.


Conclusion:

Perhaps I missed it please show me where you used Logic and where you dismantled my points? All I saw was belief on your part with no logical process. I am not criticising, I am responding exactly to your comments above.



Quote
You know, I even started trying to convince myself to try on your beliefs, to see how they fitted, until after a while I realised again that they relied only on a combination of coincidental factors all coming together at the right times and places, none of which happened on virtually any other occasion, leading to an explanation which could not fully explain what I went through anyway. That you had to resort to saying "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" is very telling indeed. The second of many ego and belief driven statements that can be aimed in both directions but ultimately get us nowhere.

Please quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.
My point was, a lack of explanation does not mean negs had to be involved. Lots of unusual things happen daily, are negs behind all of them simply because we can't explain the whys now? That's a logical deduction for above.

I agree it gets us nowhere, which is why I didn't want to write a post like this because ultimately it gets us nowhere, creates ill feeling and starts arguments.

Quote
Eh? Well yes I do think that consciousness goes beyond the brain, thank you for noticing this and pointing it out! And I have good reason to hold this opinion, though I aint going to lower something so precious into this debate....But! I fail to see how your point has anything to do with anything you are arguing for - quite the opposite, as I see it, it implies a much higher degree of power for the mind, and the ability to create my own experiences.

My whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.
If we throw it out of the window, we might as well shut such forums as this down as we are simply regurgitating belief and walking round in circles.
I did have beliefs that we are more than our brain, but now I sit on the wall because I'm brave enough to admit to myself I really don't know. All the fabulous things I've seen in the astral is not proof if confined to self. It's just belief.
By attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.

Quote
The second implication of this is that I do. Get real!!!! On both points. I am the one saying something is possible, you are saying its not. I fail to see how that makes you "open minded"!!!!!  
And as for my not accepting your arguments (ie being closed to them), I have covered that already. Like I said, the same principle applies to your attitudes, only your logic is not as strong, so I would say it applies to you more than I....

The implication of this is that (not just you) the vast majority of people base their entire knowledge and experience on second or third and concepts.
I have projected since childhood, I have read most gurus work on what they perceive the astral to be. Yet, all this is their words and their concepts. If I take it on board without testing its validity, then I am building a house of sand.
To believe totally in science, or to believe totally in an all encompassing belief system is to be closed minded. To be open minded is to be open to the fact that our beliefs might be false.
For example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words. I know what the subconscious is supposed to be, but that is only someone else's terminology. I don't know it on a 'personal' level. Perhaps eating third hand knowledge and building a world view of beliefs is enough for some people, but it is not for me.
Astral philosophy is so littered with such third hand constructs (which many people read about, in the astral their belief is made manifest and so reinforcing it) but it doesn't mean those constructs have any basis in reality.

Please. You keep talking about my logic, yet I have yet to see you actually use any. Your arguments so far are either belief (Sleep paralysis is neg attack. Lack of explanation is neg attack etc).

Quote
Again, this has little to do with anything, and is nothing more than yet another cheap get out clause... In every single example I gave, and I stated this clearly and explicitly a number of times in an evidently futile attempt to pre-squish this point of contention, I was not expecting the results I got, or the experiences that happened (and neither was my Dad).
With the slight exception of when I saw that thing standing at the bottom of my bed, since I already had a good inkling that negs were real by that point, but in no way was I obsessing over this fact at the time. Conversely, in the days and weeks following, I fully admit to being properly scared at night going to bed but guess what? No more neg sightings!!!

Firstly, it was not a cheap get out clause, it was a ploy to save me writing such a post as this and a reluctance to start a pointless argument.
My point was (yet again) nothing you experienced has to be attributed to negs. If you read earlier posts in this thread, I mentioned how seemingly strange experiences can be re-catalogued as anything if one wishes to do so. For example, you had some interesting but standard experiences. Later in life you learnt about negs, and suddenly you are converting these experiences into neg attacks. No doubt as time goes on you will remember other strange experiences and they will become neg attacks too.
One of the main functions of the brain is to 'drink order from chaos', that is, to find and match patterns.
The fact you saw no more neg sightings simply means you saw no more neg sightings.

Quote
Wow how does that work??? I mean, if your reasoning were correct, then I should have been swamped by nightmares and things standing around my bed. Huh yeah isnt it odd that I wasnt??? Wonder why that is HHMmmmm.....could it be that I actually saw something real, and not something that was a figment of my imagination - which is in essence all you are saying? If this was my imagination, its very odd how I have only ever imagined up a couple of negs, isnt it? And never seen anything else??? FfffffFFfffffs... trust me my imagination extends way beyond negs, but I dont tend to see 5 mile tall gleaming white castles out my window when I wake up (damn hehe wish I did tho that would be cool).

Please point to the reasoning you mean. I'm not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don't see what this has to do with anything.


Quote
And just incase I am not making a strong enough argument backed with experience, when I had the quick attack, with the weird green thing above me, I was actually under the assumption ("belief" if you like) that the running water barrier I was sleeping over would filter that sort of thing out. So again, your accusation is aaaahhhhh "not entirely compatible with reality"....
Oh yeah, and using this argument allows you to neatly sweep aside any evidence I can put to you that you dont like the sound of (I thought the addition of my fathers experiences would filter this out, guess I was wrong), so its not so much as an argument, as a....well....like I said....an easy get out clause.

Seeing a 'green thing' in a paralysis state is not a neg and I have made no accusations. I have simply reinterpreted you experiences, from the view point some of my own experiences which have mirrored those you put in your post.
To use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a 'green thing'. Surlely that proves it couldn't have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it's a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.
The evidence you have presented so far is experiences I myself have been having since childhood, and some interesting experiences involving your father. The experiences with your father could have been coincidence (there is no way for us to know) or they could have had a paranormal explanation. Either way, the only thing which introduces negs into the picture is your belief (once again, I see no need for negs in any of the situations you have written).

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Methinks thats enough! And I really dont want to make any more replies like this, its taken up way too much of my time and energy already. I know you meant it in a good way, but I see what Nay said now, easy to get sucked in.

I didn't want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks. I really don't see the need.
I really am not attacking you. What you have experienced is very similar to things I have been experiencing since childhood, and so I thought I would put a non-neg view on those experiences. There was no ulterior motive or plot, and no desire for arguments or attacks.

Rob

Hey hey!!

QuoteI really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...

Hummm, to you? Nope! Not even the slightest. Think you have a heart of gold and are wonderful  :thumbsup: Honestly.

QuoteWe'd all be batty if we didn't allow those truthful emotions to come out!

Each to their own!!! I know its a healthy thing for you, but for me, even if I express truthful negative feelings to someone, then I feel bad for it afterwards, worry about it, and generally feel terrible. Makes things much worst for me, which is why if I am het up about something I try to never post until its passed, and even then, I have to exercise extreme restraint and re-read and edit my post loads of times before submitting to make sure I dont feel like dirt after posting. Trust me, its for the best!!  :smile:

QuoteLOL! yeah, that's it, let it out. No need to say joke. I got the jest of it.  I admire people being honest with their feelings.. and if you find me evil, then GREAT! And please think on that for a minute...I mean it...really reflect on it.

No need to reflect! I dont and never have hated you or thought u even slightly evil - as I have said, quite the opposite, I know you have the best of intentions and frankly thats what counts most in my book.

QuoteI meant catalyst, in the sense that YOU are the beginning....see?

Hummhummmdeedumm. Well, its not something I ever really considered before. Oh no thats a lie, I have discussed neg stuff with friends and family occasionally and then wondered afterwards if it was a good idea, if I was starting something unnecessary and/or bad in their head. But I always analyse my reasons, and look deeply into the issue, and sometimes feel bad when I realise they are hanging on my words and I was subconsciously using this to my advantage to get an ego boost from their need for me driven by fear of what I was saying. Yeah, done that a couple of times, pretty poor to say the least, but now I spotted that its not such an issue any more. I certainly dont sweep it under the carpet!

Quote
QuoteAbsolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".
I've been that 5yr old... has NO ONE read my older posts??? I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.

Heeey there, I know you have and I read many of the things u said (OK well not all, I skimmed much of this topic and only posted when I saw that dude I forget name of asking for people to type more experiences, but I will go back and read I promise  :crybaby:  :reading: ). What I said wasnt aimed at you in any way, it was more of a general comment on that attitude.

Much  :heart1:

Rob

ps away for a few days, prob speak next when I get back
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!

Nay

Hahahahahaha!  damn!  You're good! :grin:  I feel guilty already..hehehehe.

Quote from: robEach to their own!!! I know its a healthy thing for you, but for me, even if I express truthful negative feelings to someone, then I feel bad for it afterwards, worry about it, and generally feel terrible. Makes things much worst for me, which is why if I am het up about something I try to never post until its passed, and even then, I have to exercise extreme restraint and re-read and edit my post loads of times before submitting to make sure I dont feel like dirt after posting. Trust me, its for the best!! Smile
All kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out.  Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!

Quote from: robHummhummmdeedumm. Well, its not something I ever really considered before. Oh no thats a lie, I have discussed neg stuff with friends and family occasionally and then wondered afterwards if it was a good idea, if I was starting something unnecessary and/or bad in their head. But I always analyse my reasons, and look deeply into the issue, and sometimes feel bad when I realise they are hanging on my words and I was subconsciously using this to my advantage to get an ego boost from their need for me driven by fear of what I was saying. Yeah, done that a couple of times, pretty poor to say the least, but now I spotted that its not such an issue any more. I certainly dont sweep it under the carpet
Before I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it.  So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?  

About reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL.  I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop.. :lol:  Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details.  I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom.  :peace:

Nay :laugh7:

Rob

Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's  and some other points:

QuoteSO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn't remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?

But in that dream I was possessed - thats just too odd. And he was waking and going back to sleep all that night, not just when I had my experience, which is most unusual for it. Combined with the fact that my other experiences have knock on effects to him - I think its well beyond the realm of coincidence.

QuoteThe reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.

...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.
Btw reams of data proving the existance of spirits and etc exists, although I admit its hard to find it sometimes.

QuoteNow your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.

OOhh that would take a while. Maybe some other time. But its more the collection of linking data that does it for me, rather than any one thing. Its not a firm belief of mine, more a working hypothesis.

QuoteI have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times.....Why add negs?
Curious I admit. IMO its again a logical link between interrelated sets of data. We will agree to differ. I might come back to this in a few days tho.

QuoteI was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness.

Bizzarre!! Very odd I admit. Except like I said, for me it was definately a different feeling/energy signature/etc to normal vibrations, and occured when I was searching for neg realted stuff. And while you might get vibrations and etc hitting regularly, for me its not common at all and takes a long time to get to an appropriate state for them.
Good points though.

QuoteI read scientific journals frequently,

Cool, same.

QuoteMy sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion?

LOL OK, fair. I knew it was weak when I posted it, I really shouldn't have. Again though, to come back to the main point, its the fact that I was not expecting this and had no (conscious) knowledge of these symptoms thats the clincher for me, so I dont see how I could have induced them myself. Combined with the fact the syptoms were spot on with those prescribed in said article. There is more to this, again unrelated and half related topics I have read up on over the years, about energy links to events and things to physical traumas and injuries, but I wont go into all that here.

QuoteI agree it's interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.

Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links between whats going on with me and happening with him are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity. Further, about the sympathetic response he had, I can only place my finger on one other incident even slightly like these three, which happened in my early childhood. So! The only times it has happened were when there were strong neg indicators. Too strong to dismiss, IMO.
Hmm, I am sure the above could be much clearer, but you get the idea.

QuotePlease quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.

hahaha funny! First post dude, near the start:

QuoteI'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.


QuoteMy whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.

Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.

QuoteBy attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.

Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way of applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.

QuoteI have projected since childhood

Nice! I am jealous  :razz:

QuoteFor example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words.

oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc (sure u have read, great book!!).

QuotePlease point to the reasoning you mean. I'm not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don't see what this has to do with anything.

You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed created anything else. The same can be said of experiences by friends of mine. And if it was fear driven imagination created, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw.
IMO even invoking archetypes about spiders in this area of discussion leaves big holes here.

QuoteTo use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a 'green thing'. Surlely that proves it couldn't have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it's a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.

It was the similarity to other experiences I have mentioned that made me come to this conclusion, combined with the other things that happened at the time. Voices leading to green vision thing leading to paralysis/fear whacker.

QuoteI didn't want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks.

Oops, sorry! Seriously, I guess I was being out of line, sorry about that.

Anyway, your last post was of a high quality, thanks.

Rob
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!

Rob

Quote from: NayHahahahahaha!  damn!  You're good! :grin:  I feel guilty already..hehehehe.

Bwahahahahahaha I win!!  :woot:
Lol, it was not my intention to make u feel guilty though.

Quote from: NayAll kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out.  Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!

LOL!!!
But hey, you are right. Although I dont always hold them in, I just release them in a way nobody else can see  :ninjahide: .

Quote from: NayBefore I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it.  So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?

Hey, that I can cope with - although the ego boost it gives does make me uncomfortable. Its more when I make neg suggestions and scare the living hell out of them that I feel bad for it!!!!!!


QuoteAbout reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL.  I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop.. :lol:  Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details.  I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom.  :peace:

TEEEeehehehehe I remember well!!!! But hey, you said it yourself, better out than in right?? And it was all good stuff, people are here are, in the vast majority of cases, mature enuff to handle it.....maybe even the stuff you told me in private (um, well maybe anyway    :wink:    :lol: ).
And ample busoms....I like it  :yippee: Yey Nay has large breasts! I like you even more ROFL!!!

Rob

And now I really really REEEAAALLY have to go to bed!!!
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!

MisterJingo

Quote
Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's and some other points:

I worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I'm not really out to disprove anything; I've had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful :).

Quote
...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.

I think the difference between then and now is how fast information is communicated and the devices we have at our disposal to help communicate evidence quickly.
I haven't got the figures on me, but its something crazy like in a recent year (I can't remember which one off the top of my head) more scientific papers were published than every scientific paper in history proceeding that year – and there are more scientists alive today then if you add the numbers of every scientist through every age who ever lived (in recorded history of course). I guess part of this is due to the exponential increase in population, but it also shows just how fast science is accelerating.
I'm not going to state all areas of science are open minded, but I think scientists of today are perhaps more open than previous generations.
The problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science. But conversely, I think a lot of what we term paranormal might be explained in natural terms once the research is done (like recently there was an article about ball lightening in New Scientist, and potential mechanisms of action).

Quote
Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity.

I admit that a lot of things happened which seem to put it outside the realms of coincidence but I guess I find it hard to relate such things to negs because in my similar experiences I've found other explanations. This in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?
Just because I'm hesitant to attribute things to negs does not mean I discount all paranormal explanations.

Quote
hahaha nice! First post dude, near the start:
Quote
I'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.


To put this into context see my previous point. Two people can experience very similar things, yet give very different meanings to such experiences. The only thing that differs is belief (your belief in this being neg activity, my belief it isn't). I'm not saying you attributed it to negs at the time, even in hindsight will do.
So it seems our different outlooks are colouring perceptions of events to such a point we give different causes for them.

Quote
Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.

I agree with the above. I used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn't discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as 'knowns' to just possibilities.
I'm sure a lot of my earlier posts to other forums are hanging about on the net where I used to argue against sceptics with my viewpoints I had acquired predominantly from Monroe.

Quote
Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.

I agree with this. But I'm also of the belief that science will eventually catch up on such areas and prove/disprove them either way. Science is very much in its infancy, but I think over the past two centuries it has show some real signs of maturity.
I feel we need more people doing research into these areas, even if just on a personal level. One thing I think which hinders research into this area is the sheer amount of 'belief' taken as fact. I think it is possible to remain objective and have these amazing spiritual experiences.

Quote
oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc.

This is good to see ;). In my more belief driven days I had an enlightenment and really saw how much of my current world and self understanding was based on external knowledge of others.
I'm not too much concerned about world knowledge, because I think science does a good enough job so that experiments can be walked through and the truth of them seen. I just find problems with the more subjective sciences (not with their findings, just taking their terminology on at face value).

Quote
You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed done so. The same can be said of friends of mine. And if it was fear driven, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw

Things like this aren't easy to answer as there could be a tremendous amount of factors which play a part.
For example, I have had sleep paralyses experiences all of my life yet even now I still sometimes have panic reactions. Recently I awoke in a sleep paralysis state, my mind was still a bit cloudy with sleep and the paralysis state had some pretty severe sensations with it. I first panicked (reflex), but then decided to try and project. I rolled out of bed and found myself grabbed and threw against the wall. There was a being shouting random stuff at me and I felt real fear and anger.
I got back into my body and the vibrations were still strong so I went back out, this being was still there but it seemed to have aspects of my brother. I decided to attack the being and just pushed my mind forwards. (This is hard to explain because if I don't reason it out I can do anything – such as in a past experience people seemed to be throwing stones at me so I made myself it a large monster and charged them, picking them up and throwing them etc, and another I was in a block of flats with a huge hole in the wall. For some reason a car was sitting here and there was two very argumentative women. They finally annoyed me so much, after one got in the car I pushed it out of the hole, but then I felt bad so I stretched my arms down to the car as it was falling and pulled it back into the building.)
I fought the being off and then headed for my living room, the experience ended not long after.
This being seemed to be a direct manifestation of the fear and unpleasantness I felt just prior to projection, and then taking attributes of my brother seemed to draw direct parallels with childhood issues regarding him (I have no idea why they surfaced at that point, perhaps the anger/fear I was experiencing triggered a memory which it resonated with).
Anyway, back to the point. There seems a direct link between fear and neg experiences in the astral, one projects/touches projection with some form of fear, more often than not that fear manifests in some way.
Friends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?

Just to finish, I'll just detail a few experiences which is what caught my attention when I read about you and your dad.
When I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he'd have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he's the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn't experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.

Something similar happened to my room mate at university, he suddenly started projecting, and having fear reactions because of this (figures grabbing him etc).

I have a few more experiences like this, one where I was seemingly seen while out of body, but I have no hard evidence to back it up.

As you can see, I've had some shared experiences, and to be honest, I can't explain why. It seems personal and/or physical proximity was a prerequisite for them.
This is why I suggested there might be link between your Dad and you, but it might not be a neg related link. Perhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don't know.

I guess my point is that although it is your prerogative to believe what you will, we shouldn't be so unbending in our belief as to ignore everything else (I'm not accusing you of this; I just see it enough times on spiritual forums to be depressing).

I really believe we can make things happen in this field if we go about it the right way.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!  :grin:

patapouf

There ya go!! :notworthy:  That's much much nicer and more fun to read.

Souljah333



QuoteI really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...
:laughing4: OMG...that's too funny coming from you.

QuoteDo you guys actually think I enjoy being hated by you?? Do you actually think I get some sick joy out of it?
hmmm????

QuoteI spent most of my life....
***************************
...I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.
just a little wider...just one more time.


Quote... but negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE!!! they have nooooooo control over your soul, your being, your brain...NOTHING.

wow...that works huh?!? :roll: have you ever thought that maybe neg's don't like to be around you? since there seems to be this colossal struggle that a lot of folks are having, and you just breezed through the whole thing completely unscathed?!? that's so strange.

why don't you tell 'em what it was really like...when the zombies crawled out of the quite darkness to devour you. why don't you try getting in touch with your humble side, and relating to people...instead of always tossing that joker card around. i've never, ever seen you really open up. not here anyway. you really have a nack for treating people unfairly. not me, bcuz i couldn't care less...but others that are striving to understand.

it's just my personal opinion of course, but i really think you've got a lot of growing up to do when it comes to respecting other people, their opinions & experiences, and the time-frame in which they accomplish their lessons.

you know...what you dish out come backs three fold.
from what i've seen...you've got a lot a words to eat.
NEW (again) MYSTICMYSFITS.COM

jlandon

QuoteIt seems to me that both sides of the argument are rather spirited about their viewpoint, which is understandable since this is a very sensitive topic, but if this is the case why hasn't sufficient evidence been provided?

probably because in the paranormal you are dealing with forces that are SELF-AWARE, very UNLIKE sticking a germ in a petri dish and studying it under a microscope... i am getting so tired of explaining this concept... the very methods used by science tend to be worlds apart from the nature of the psi activity that they claim to show an interest it... and what do you mean by "why has sufficient evidence been provided"?.. you mean sufficient evidence for *your* satisfaction?  well, that is purely subjective, isn't it?  

and what do you mean by "if this is the case".. if both sides are spirited, there should necessarily be sufficient evidence for *you* to be convinced?  god, it is always so obvious when sh*t stirrers appear on the horizon... look, if you have read so much about it, and are still not convinced, WHY ON EARTH would you still be asking for reasons why you have not been convinced?  obviously, it is just not for you.. which is fine... you don't have to believe in any of this stuff... that's ok.

no hard feelings, but i think you were on valium when you posted this... just stop it.

Selski

I have been taking an interest in this thread and following it for a while now.  I have found it stimulating, probably because I have no firm fixed beliefs when it comes to negs.  I am more inclined to try and help the person help themselves, rather than find out whether what they were experiencing was "real" or not.  It's as real to them as my experiences are to me.  

But I have just a few tiny things I'd like to pick up on.  I wasn't going to interrupt, but you know when something plays on your mind... so...

Quote from: Naybut negs are like friggin fleas..you flick them off and they are GONE

Perhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?  

Think of it in terms of smokers.  Look at the number of different ways of stopping smoking we can choose.  Patches work for some, willpower works for others, etc., etc.  If someone smokes and wants to stop, but finds that certain ways aren't working, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were only pretending they want to stop.  It's just that they haven't found the way that works for them.  And to help them, it might be more productive to show compassion/understanding and suggest a few ideas that they might not have thought of.

Moving on...

Quote from: NayBack in the day when I was asked to be a moderator here, I was so grateful. All the mods were open and kind.....then, well, something happened.

What's this all about?  And why in public?

Quote from: NayI feel that people are taking the negative road alot more these days and was hoping to have the mods see eye to eye and when I read your post it made me feel like I've been yapping for no reason.

Huh?  Is that a prerequisite for being a mod?  I would just like to say that I thought Adrian invited each of the moderating members to do the job because he believed we were relatively trustworthy/responsible to have a few more buttons so that we could delete/move posts, that kind of thing.

I don't want members to get the impression that the mods have weekly meetings discussing the issues that are posted about in the Forums, to reach a "group" decision on a particular viewpoint.  

And I want to stress again, that the moderators are members first and foremost, with their own personal opinions about the subjects discussed.  We are not cliquey – in fact if you put all the mods in a room together, we'd probably be arguing within 10 minutes, a fight would break out and Adrian would have to step in.  :lol:

Being a moderator does not give us an "elevated" status when we are active on the Forums.  We simply have extra buttons.  That's all.

I just wanted to clarify that as it's important to me.  I don't want to be seen as someone "high and mighty" just because I've got the word 'moderator' under my name.  I guess it's one of my little gripes.

Thanks.

Sarah

Back to the interesting discussion...
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

Souljah333

selski,
sound input. i think it's difficult for most people to be handed any kind of status and not get their ego out of whack. it's expected for the most part. it's highly visible in a number of forums (esp. watching someone's perspective change...when you've been acquainted with them as a fellow member, and then suddenly they're a 'mod'). your post was needed. it's always nice to get some human & humble 'emotion' from the other side (of the buttons).
i appreciate it anyway. i think for the most part the mod's here are decent. as you pointed out, it's a fairly simple job...but some folk are gonna use it to the best of their avantage...and...well...what are you gonna do?!?

nay,
here's to the multiverse. the one we all hold a place in.
and here's to respecting each beings purpose in total, and the time-frame in which they move through it. i wanted to bring up the word 'hate', bcuz it's a powerful word you use frequently. i don't believe there's anyone here that hates you. i'm probably one of the most alternative minds on this forum, in reflection to yours (someone that would 'appear' to be against you), and i certainly don't hate you or anything else on an individual level for that matter...so i think that puts you pretty much in the clear.

if i was a therapist i'd have to ask, "why do you think everyone hates you?", but i'm an intuitive practitioner...and i already see the 'why', but's not my place to call you forth. i can't help feeling the patronizing energy in your words though, and something i do honestly believe you could spend some energy working on. you're only two years older than me; so i feel okay saying...that your age (although it might colour your perspective), in no way gives you the right to treat people as stupid or less than. you know about the light side of things. it's what you preach. in fitting with that you must also know that 'to each their own'. i really feel you have some trust issues to work out. bcuz FAITH is what seems to be lacking in your energy. faith that everyone is going to be fine.

don't bother jumping all over the place with that, bcuz i'll tell you exactly what i mean. you push the love, the light, the positive...but yet (although you attempt to transfer this on to others [namely me])...you seem to have quite an affair with hate, anger, darkness, and negativity. i can sense the excitement in your words. the way you sink your teeth into them every time they come up. i believe it's your 'attraction' that you struggle with, not mine or anyone else's. i have complete faith that people can move in all direction without ever getting stuck for long. and it's through this movement (the current colossal invasion you speak of) that the next generation is merely 'exploring'. and it's through an amalgamation and understanding of both sides that there will come peace. not to have everyone turn their backs...esp. when they know something is there that is demanding their attention.

everyone works to a higher calling and there's nothing to do but accept, respect & have faith in that. i know how firmly you 'believe' in what you believe, but do really want to have that responsibility? do you really want to be the one to tell people what's right for them? seems like some impossible shoes to fill...but that's just my opinion (per usual).

and as a side note....seems you might benefit from not always keeping score. it's hard to get flexible when carrying all that old weight around.
**********************************************************
as for the thread,
it's typical that the subject of the 'observer' isn't of more interest, but it really is the major player in this discussion...and those with a scientific slant really have the worst case of it (observing).
relying on technology/science & the exterior develops huge egos, whilst
relying more on the interior...one is more open to humbleness.
nobody needs any "proof" anyway. that's the answer to the big question. that there are no answers. just distractions.

here's to never trying to divert others from their independence and inner workings in any sense.

here's to spending time getting to know yourself (your observer) and how morbidly dependent it can be when catered to 24-7.
and here's to getting out once in while for a little 'free' time.

love soul
NEW (again) MYSTICMYSFITS.COM

James S

Sarah,
Smokers is an excellent analogy. It shows exactly what I was saying. Thank you.  :smile:

Soul,
You make a very good point about "scientific" observation.
I know true science is meant to be studied in a completely unbiased manner, but when we look at science as it is today, I don't see how this is possible. Scientific observation is just as coloured by bias and beliefs as any religious belief system. For starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.

The views I have on this subject are that we all have challenges and lessons in this lifetime. Before we incarnated here we chose this lifetime to address these challenges, which could be karmic in nature, or simply a need to evolve. We also chose the situations that would bring them to us. This is all for the purpose of our soul's evolution, and in many ways its no different to a university student sitting tests to achieve a degree.

It is also our choice to accept the challenge, to learn the lesson, and move forward, just as it is the choice of the uni student to study the required material to pass their tests. How long you undergo the challenges in your life could be equated to a uni student doing a double degree, or going on towards a PhD.
Your soul may have chosen a BIG lesson to learn.

Blessings,
James.

Nay

Quote from: sarahPerhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?
You're right, I had no right assuming that other people could perhaps be as strong/gung-ho or mature...don't know what I was thinking..stupid, stupid, stupid thought I had there.  I will certainly cease thinking that way.  Thank you for setting me straight.

Quote from: sarahWhat's this all about? And why in public?
Sarah, it has been public information since the very beginning.. I'm not letting out some big dark secret that Runlola and I are not Pen-pals.  People will either read what we said or did read it at the time that it was happening.  If I may be so bold as to say, you made it out to be the federal case.

Quote from: sarahHuh? Is that a prerequisite for being a mod? I would just like to say that I thought Adrian invited each of the moderating members to do the job because he believed we were relatively trustworthy/responsible to have a few more buttons so that we could delete/move posts, that kind of thing.
I should have worded that different.  I have no misconceived notions that I'm better than anyone or being a mod has elevated my status.  As for Adrian's reason...I have no idea, we should ask him.

Quote from: sarahI don't want members to get the impression that the mods have weekly meetings discussing the issues that are posted about in the Forums, to reach a "group" decision on a particular viewpoint.
I don't think I was giving that impression either...  I haven't even been in the mods forum for weeks.

Quote from: sarahAnd I want to stress again, that the moderators are members first and foremost, with their own personal opinions about the subjects discussed. We are not cliquey – in fact if you put all the mods in a room together, we'd probably be arguing within 10 minutes, a fight would break out and Adrian would have to step in. Laughing
My point exactly when I said something to the effect, "then it got different"  You see back in the days, us mods could be in the same room and not argue......and even if we did one didn't feel like it was a personal attack.  

Quote from: sarahI just wanted to clarify that as it's important to me. I don't want to be seen as someone "high and mighty" just because I've got the word 'moderator' under my name. I guess it's one of my little gripes.
I absolutely don't want to either.    I shall relinquish my mod status so I will never fall into that trap.  fair enough?

I will comment to Souljah, after I'm not a mod. :lol:  

Take it easy,

Nay

MisterJingo

Quote from: James SSarah,
Soul,
You make a very good point about "scientific" observation.
I know true science is meant to be studied in a completely unbiased manner, but when we look at science as it is today, I don't see how this is possible. Scientific observation is just as coloured by bias and beliefs as any religious belief system. For starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.

It is things like this which make me have doubts. I mean although we can say such things about scientific observation, even if it is biased, unless the results are completely fabricated they can be repeated and verified anywhere (peer review). Whereas, this only goes as far as projecting onto the astral (going out of body - where everyone seems to have to find their own way), nothing else can be verified as it seems unique to each person. People who strongly buy into the same belief system might have similar experiences, but never the same.
Also, I think science works on more than six senses. We might use our physical 5 senses to interpret the data we receive, but in modern age we have things ranging from electron microscopes, x-ray machines, particle accelerators, background radiation satellites mapping the heavens, quark detectors, super computers modelling many extremely complex phenomenons etc. Literally hundreds/thousands of new 'senses', artificial yes, but they gather so much more information than we would ever see or know in the astral or reality otherwise.
I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just seem to start buying into astral ideas more, and then I'll see scientific findings which give me reasons to doubt our current view of the astral and its philosophies.
I would love to be able to take things at face value as I see many people do, but I just feel uncomfortable ignoring a lot of evidence to the contrary of such beliefs.

Souljah333

QuoteFor starters it only works through five sensory observation, whereas any spiritual studies require six sensory observation. This goes to show that science as it is today is not adequately equipped to make theories or observations on such things as negative entities or energies.

i don't see science as adequately equipped to deal with much at all..save measuring, tagging, and wasting vast sums of money. i guess that's where my ego gets a little perturbed (and somewhere a lesson lays hidden). it's changing (slowly), and i suppose i could be happy with that, but i still see a lot of trampling taking place in the process (per usual). not to mention (as someone already has) the 'agendas' of those who hold the checkbooks (the conspiracy of which is a whole thread of it's own).

this 'observer' logic is vital, not just to the ease of everyday functioning, but to the evolution of our species in the long term (IMHO). i have to admit that in the past it's something i pushed with a fairly heavy-hand. it was just so perfectly life changing, but i've only come across one other person that embraced the simplicity...and that was the old man that gave me my first jiddu krishnamurti book "Awakening of Intelligence".
i can't stress any of this material enough (in his own words...not in the dogma that's delivered on the websites [but i guess that's a decent place to start]). for anyone that has those really hard questions, and tends to be more then a little stubborn in their beliefs...the books are worth their weight in gold. there's a ton of mystery within the human consciousness and it's does very well, to at least explore these things before attempting to make sense of the unconscious & unknown.

for anyone with c2c streamlink, there have been some amazing shows in the last week. namely...(02/14/06) w/ Steven Hairfield: Changing Times & (02/08/06) w/ Charles Upton: UFOs, End Times & the Antichrist
Author Charles Upton. Upton made some interesting comments about demons that are in-fitting with what's being discussed here.

i also believe it was Upton that commented on krishnamurti. who (i had no idea) was an extremely poor child that benjamin creme (assoc. w/ the buzz of the new maitreya: see "share international.) scooped up off the streets of india (along with his colleagues from the "theospohical society") to raise as the new messiah (their first attempt)...that went terribly wrong when jiddu eventually (in years) decline this position, and began his lectures on the "observer/ego". people from the west might never have heard of krishnamurti, but in the east & europe he was basically seen as a god since his childhood. despite the reverence he managed to come round full circle to a point where he wouldn't even accept being called a "teacher". this is just to say...that as far as ego is concerned & the "I"-center process...this guy's perspective is invaluable!

streamlink is well worth (i think it's...) $9/mth!?!
i listen to the shows during the day, and download the ones most interesting.

anyway...that's about it.
save for looking forward to nay's reply.
333
NEW (again) MYSTICMYSFITS.COM

MisterJingo

Quote from: Souljah333
i don't see science as adequately equipped to deal with much at all..save measuring, tagging, and wasting vast sums of money. i guess that's where my ego gets a little perturbed (and somewhere a lesson lays hidden). it's changing (slowly), and i suppose i could be happy with that, but i still see a lot of trampling taking place in the process (per usual). not to mention (as someone already has) the 'agendas' of those who hold the checkbooks (the conspiracy of which is a whole thread of it's own).

Just a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn't adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?
I agree personal experience is paramount, but it isn't necessarily true in any form.
We could look back a thousand years or so when we lived on a flat earth, covered by a crystal dome with stars embedded in it, and Gods heaven and the sun revolved around us. Eyes saw through projecting light and bacteria were taken as evil spirits. This is one example, mainly Christian I know, but we could find such world views from any culture.
People took this as true personal knowledge and based their view of reality on it, yet with our current world understanding it is obviously quite wrong. What makes today's philosophies any truer, and how can we find out if they are if we consider all repeatable empirical evidence as pointless?
Are we just supposed to believe whatever we want as that is all that matters?

Rob

Okey I is back. Quick comments:

Souljah: You have spoken of krishnamurti in a very positive light a few times now. Gotta say my opinion on his work differs somewhat - I bought one of his books ("The Book of Life") out of curiosity, but couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy". Good example. My own exporation of my own mind, psychology and, to no small extent, spirituality was kick started by my intense insecurities when I was younger (ie internal conflict), which it taught me sooo much. Then there are the technological advances, human closeness, and determination after the fact to make a better world and to not allow it to happen again that came from the World Wars. So my opinion is that you can often learn often at least as much from conflict as from its opposite  :wink: )
I am reminded of something I read once that said that as you progress up the spiritual levels, the Truth of things changes, so that at each level it looks completely different to the last. Maybe its just each to their own level and zone on that level. If so, then krishnamurti is much closed to yours and a long way from mine!!

Next thing to you:
Quotejust a little wider...just one more time.
You say you are an intuitive practitioner. Do you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?
(btw I admit many of Nays comments to you have been far from perfect, but please try to refrain from using this as an excuse. And yes, I am far from perfect as well, and more than happy to admit it. I also usually try to clear up any mess this imperfection may cause).
Infact, I would like to ask the two of you to stop these vicious comments you are aiming at eachother. Nay, yes, getting things "off your chest" may help, but in the long run, those "things" will cause more "things" to be piled on souljahs chest, which she will then unload into these forums, and you both perpetuate a very nasty argument with eachother. So! I might suggest that in the short term holding back the angry and superior comments (which you *BOTH* are making) might, at least in Nays case, make you want to explode (which you can do, but try to aim the flak at a pillow or something similar!), but being polite and courteous will take the discussion in an upwards direction and, in the long term, stop you from getting so angry or whatever to begin with.
I mean, there are obviously things you can agree upon, is there no way you can focus on this and allow these agreements to lead to an agreeable tone, instead of getting emotional over what you disagree about and letting this dominate your posts? I'm not saying dont disagree, because I think its valuable to do so, just asking you to not take it so personally when you do so.
Take MJ for instance. He could have responded to my sharp pokey and, lets face it, somewhat odd, post to him, with something similar, angry or insulting, and it may be argued that he would have had a right to have done so. But he didn't, and we are now having a good positive discussion which, I think, we are both learning from - right MJ?


Anyhow...

MJ (lol, I called u MH before, oops):
I have enormous issues with the rejection of science by much of the spiritual community too.
QuoteJust a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn't adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?
I am not sure it is entirely fair to reduce everything to personal belief, without understanding the reasons for holding those beliefs. For instance, your experiences of astral projection, you believe you can astral project, and to the average scientist this is all it would be, a deluded belief. But this is something you know science has difficulty even verifying the existence of at all (so far, although there have been some good experiments - you probably know them better than me since they involved monroe). So the issue becomes how spiritual belief is rooted in experience (1st, 2nd or 3rd hand, as you well pointed out), which is often of an intensely personal kind and/or non-repeatable, whereas scientific verification requires repeatable and measurable results. I also share your opinion that science will eventually explore other realms such as astral, and verify the existence of entities/spirits and etc, just that new instrumentation and approaches will have to be evolved first.
Its nice to see that this has already started, although that it has is a fact mostly unknown to people involved in spiritual pursuits. There have been some very good advances. From China, where they take investigating these things much more seriously, I have a lot of very good experiments saved on my computer done with a Qui-Gong master, in a Chinese university, showing the effect of his projecting Chi with intent onto various measuring apparatus. Very positive results on that theme.

Moving from this to a point you raised to me before:

QuoteThe problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science.

Do you mean by framework, an experimental framework (ie how to conduct experiments), or an intellectual framework of understanding (ie whats going on)?
As my above bit indicates, there are some good experimental frameworks evolving already. Added to this, are you familiar with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, or William Tiller and his IIED's I think he calls them? Some very good stuff there.
But as for an intellectual framework to put it in....tricky!! People relate it to quantum effects and etc, but you probably know this and the issues it runs into.

QuoteThis in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?

Yes, you are making me wonder too  :grin:

QuoteI used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn't discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as 'knowns' to just possibilities.

Wow, gotta respect you for that!! Nice one.

QuoteFriends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?

Hmmm, first point, not really. I only really started discussing this with friends who had experiences of this kind, after I had been through everything I have been discussing with you here, and by that point they had also had "untainted" experiences from before we had even met, and continuing beyond this time. For instance, two friends, one had "night terrors" when much younger involving him becoming totally obsessively demented, and seeing snakes and spiders falling from the ceiling, writhing over the floor, etc (btw this obsessive quality of what I think are neg attacks like this leads me into the OCD type complex I think we can grow up with). Another friend has often woken up to see spiders crawling around his room. And you have had the spiders thing too. Which reminds me, I once had an experience where in a dream there was a nasty red and white snake in my lap, hissing at me. I was terrified and could barely move, then it bit me in the thigh, and I woke up with a stabbing pain where I had been "dream bitten" (to me, indicating more than a creation of the mind). So why snakes and spiders so much? My friend isnt scared of spiders, he is more the type who would carelessly pick them up, and there is a definite link to people seeing both these things at all ages, which kinda indicates my other friend when he was young was not just hallucinating spiders and snakes because he was afraid of them too. I am not afraid of snakes, either. I mean, there could be some "archetypal fears", but again, why only manifest visions of what the collective mind is afraid of? Why not the other archetypal stuff, negative or positive? And why such an overwhelming emphasis on snakes and spiders? To me, it indicates some level of objective reality, but if you have any other suggestions we have not covered yet I would love to hear them.
Second question you asked: When I was going to bed at night more afraid, I did not have any other paralysis, projection experiences, or shadow sightings.

QuoteWhen I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he'd have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he's the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn't experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.

That is really really REAALLY interesting!!!
I wonder, would you be prepared to try covering your body in scared symbols like I did, to see if it does anything? Let me know if you are interested and I will dig out the precise details.

QuotePerhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don't know.

Ooooh now I really had not considered the first option. Yup, loosens my beliefs a bit  :grin: .
I think it was the Celts who did not believe in the concepts of "right or wrong" like we do today, but instead saw everything on a line between "probably correct/yes" and "probably incorrect/no". I suppose this is true in life and even more so with respect to spiritual experiences. I mean, even if we have experienced something we may be able to say "I remember experiencing that" but drawing definite, absolute, conclusions from there is probably a bad idea, even if IMO it still is one of the most solid starting points.
I will endeavour to take this point of view more in the future.

QuoteI worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I'm not really out to disprove anything; I've had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful :).

You and me both......and on the final comment there <looks at shoes> you are entirely right.

And I take back what I said about nothing constructive coming from this, thanks for proving me wrong

:hippy3:
(!!!Formerly known as Inguma!!!)
You are the Alpha and the Omega. You are vaster than the universe and more powerful than a flaring supernova. You are truly incredible!!