Do they Exist, or Not?

[Souljah333]

MJ asked:

why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?

'such a thing' i'm assuming is coming up with answers & proof?!? not sure exactly if i'm understanding the question, but supply and demand to begin with...and a lot of people investing a hell of a lot of time in what they are very serious about. a lot of fortune 500 companies & the government willing to foot the bill on all manner of things (i won't bother listing).
it's work, it's prestigious, it's a high-status social club, and it keeps us sheeple distracted from any independence of it (for the most part)(i feel).

you said...

We could look back a thousand years or so when we lived on a flat earth, covered by a crystal dome with stars embedded in it, and Gods heaven and the sun revolved around us. Eyes saw through projecting light and bacteria were taken as evil spirits... People took this as true personal knowledge and based their view of reality on it, yet with our current world understanding it is obviously quite wrong.

first, i don't really see how the perspective (in general) has changed much, and second: the details aren't of interest to me...i was looking at the system of beliefs themselves. they had theirs, we have ours, and therefore nothing has changed. i personally wouldn't go as far to say 'they were wrong & we're right (or at least on the 'right track').
we don't know that. we don't know that at all.

what makes today's philosophies any truer? I don't think they are.
(which makes the second part of your question (only to me)...
yes, pointless.
are we just supposed to believe whatever we want as that is all that matters? i suppose that could be seen as the case, bcuz your average person needs to 'believe' in something, but that's not where i'm coming from (personally). i pick up beliefs just the same as anyone, but only to examine them, feel them through, and then set them aside. nothing 'wrong' with ideas, theories, or egos (for that matter)...i just prefer not to get stuck in them. i'm always the first person to stand up and say i don't have any idea what's going on, and i'm also the first person to walk away from someone who tries to tell me how it is. that's just me.

inguma wrote in reference to krishnamurti...

but couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy".

first off...there is very peculiar cadence to jiddu's words that seem to make it extremely difficult for most people to get far in to. second, you said you COULDN'T/DIDN'T read it, which would stand to reason why you're having a problem with the 'setting aside of conflict'. JK was not a complicated man...the profoundness of his wisdom was he said exactly what he meant and nothing more. haven't read "book of life", but if it's like his other work (dictation style from lectures within groups)...you will see he is constantly requesting that individuals not go off on a tangent with his words, but simply "examine" what's being said in the present.
and in your chosen text he said, "conflict of any kind...is a waste of energy". and how can anyone argue with that?!?
one of his main goals was to get people to see that they attempted everything under the sun, except being present. constantly drawing on past experience and projecting it into future scenarios...without ever taking 'account' of the here & now. (that kind of stuff just pisses people off, if not messes with their mind too much. me? i love it & can't get enough).

i really do urge you...if you still have the book to at least read one chapter. i do agree though if you haven't totally digested it that it's not something typically well suited for bibliomancy.

as for the rest of your argument...JK (as well as myself) was in complete agreement that anything can be learned from anything. his teachings (for lack of a better word) for the most part was about 'not getting stuck in anything in PARTICULAR.

as for the rest...i won't comment on the moral or political correctness of your posts, and would appreciate the same respect in return. of course it's not an ultimatum of any kind.

Do you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?

yes...i am a IP, but i never made any claims to being a saint. the energy behind what i said in "opening up"...was honest. i can't be anymore genuine than that. my purpose isn't 'productive & positive', and that doesn't mean that it's 'unproductive & negative' either. some people might like to go around patting one another on the back, and candy-coating blather, but i don't much see the point in it.
i can use the following excerpt from selski to nay as an example...

Perhaps some people are simply not as strong/strong-willed/gung-ho/mature about negs as you are Nay?

ahh...isn't that all nice and sweet on the surface, but comments like that is what i see leading to more conflict. it's like fertilizing dandelions. of course the reply was even sweeter, as nay commented that it had totally changed her thinking. just my skills at work here, but i'll have to see that in actual application.

i posses no ill will for what's transpired between nay & i in the past (or anyone else for that matter) i'm not keeping record, and i don't want to play "that" game...but i appreciate the in-put none the less.

nay is free to say whatever she wants to me, and if she believes it's too much for the passive ears of this forum...she's got my e-mail.
as matter of fact...you all do!

soul

[Shinobi]

...

[CFTraveler]

i also believe it was Upton that commented on krishnamurti. who (i had no idea) was an extremely poor child that benjamin creme (assoc. w/ the buzz of the new maitreya: see "share international.) scooped up off the streets of india (along with his colleagues from the "theospohical society") to raise as the new messiah (their first attempt)...that went terribly wrong when jiddu eventually (in years) decline this position, and began his lectures on the "observer/ego". people from the west might never have heard of krishnamurti, but in the east & europe he was basically seen as a god since his childhood. despite the reverence he managed to come round full circle to a point where he wouldn't even accept being called a "teacher". this is just to say...that as far as ego is concerned & the "I"-center process...this guy's perspective is invaluable!

Interesting info.  I had some contact with 'share' international, who wanted my church to host an event.  We, being a metaphysical church, thinking they were some sort of buddhist movement, (maytreya and all) were going to have them until I went into their website- it was really to promote their latest 'messiah'.  We didn't go for it, but the whole affair left me with a low opinion of them.

[James S]

Hi MisterJingo,

I can see where you're coming from here, and understand your viewpoint. I've been a great proponent for scientific methodology for a long time, and when analytical observation is used in its most unbiased form, it can produce unquestionable results, and be a very good and firm basis for future exploration.

Or the could be questionable results if you've just invested a great deal of money in something that is based on the skewed research obtained from biased observations.

Soul made an excellent point about who's writing the cheques for research. A study done in Europe a number of years ago into the possible harmful effects of mobile phone emissions concluded that mobile phones emit no harmful radiation.  Who funded the research?  Nokia!

Scientific research does indeed rely on repeatable results to form conclusions. Unfortunately, where it comes to things metaphysical, the physical tools required to get the measurements needed are still too  limited in their capacity.

Consider that current scientific measurement still relies on five sensory perception. All the devices you mentioned are still only mapping the physical universe, their output attuned to our five physical senses.

When looking for validity and possible measurement of the spiritual universe, we need to rely on our sixth sense, which science, being dependent on physical methodology, is as yet unable to provide measurement equipment for.

Validation and repeatable results within the metaphysical world do happen, and quite frequently.
For example, I have two spirit guides frequently around me here in this world. There have been many occasions when I've met and been been talking to a medium for the first time and they describe one of my two guides as being around me. They describe my guides perfectly.

When enough individuals, with no knowledge of each other or of any of the circumstances involved, with no prior information to preempt the experience, observe the same thing in exactly the same way, this to me is a verifiable, repeatable result.

Having said all that, I do recognise that there are some absolute scam artists within the spiritual community who promote their ways or products to the gullible using dodgy pseudo-science. I know all industries have such people within them, but in the spiritual "industry", for exactly the reasons you've mentioned, things are much harder to prove or disprove.
Here is where you need your sixth sense working well - intuition will always separate the genuine from the con.

Blessings,
James.

[taoita]

Does anybody else get this?  Sometimes I can feel parts of my body which aren't there!  Like, I've felt like I've got pierced ears but I don't.  The weirdest one was when i felt I had my eyebrow pierced and I had a compulsive need to touch it.  Do you think that this is an overlay issue come as a horrible reality or am i just sensitive to people and remember aspects of them for a long time?  Whatever it is, it's like a shadow in myself.  

[MisterJingo]

Okey I is back. Quick comments:

Hi Inguma,

Thank you for the detailed reply . I haven't had a chance to sit down and type a thoughtful response yet - but just a quick message to say I haven't forgotten about this thread  
I would be interested if you could give me information on the sacred symbols you drew on yourself, as I'd be happy to try this and see what happens.