Flaming

[shedt]

I respect you for admitting this. Ego is a very dangerous thing, and it's hard too control sometimes. myself, i have a problem with my temper. i think no, it's more that i can get really moody. that's what i'm going too try and work on. i try too be aware that there could be a outside influence.

my opinion is too many people here take everything they believe too be absolute, and they are not flexable too that it could be wrong.

i think it's best too have multiple perspectives, but if your ego is too big and you always think everything you believe is right, then we get these flame wars. every situation is different, and you should look at each one differently, even if you think it is the same thing that has effected you before.

at least this is my two cents.

[Dark Knight]

Fat_Turkey,

You know it would have been nicer if you had asked the people Enderwiggin has helped how they felt about him, and what he has really given other people.

You know, if you can Astral Project, has it ever occurred to you to go with Enderwiggin or Spectral Dragon and see what is actually happening, instead of assuming we're all just making this crap up?

Just a challenge, not an attack, you're not gonna die.

James you said you thought maybe you needed more experience. Assuming you can do what I can't, why don't you guys AP and interact with what Spectral and Ender interact with. Look for yourselves.

[Anonymous]

Hi Shedt. What you say is true, at least I believe it to be true. I just wish the flaming would stop. It's a tremendous waste of energy, to be angry, or to hate. Yet, at the same time, it is also natural to be angry. It is a human emotion. However, one should still try to find a constructive output for it rather than using it for destructive purposes such as flaming.

[shedt]

quote:Originally posted by EnderWiggin

Hi Shedt. What you say is true, at least I believe it to be true. I just wish the flaming would stop. It's a tremendous waste of energy, to be angry, or to hate. Yet, at the same time, it is also natural to be angry. It is a human emotion. However, one should still try to find a constructive output for it rather than using it for destructive purposes such as flaming.

I do not know personally if it is natural. maybe it is not ? from my perspective, it seems almost taught. i think it comes from frustration. frustration when your ego gets hurt.

but there are other ways too vent. I think, if i get frustrated, and my child sees so, and unstead of getting angry i try too focus myself and use positive emotions then maybe my child will learn the same.

i think personally things like hate and anger are learned. You learn them from others i think, this is how one copes too frustration i believe. but i think you can learn other ways in the begining, and maybe we should try too teach others and our children this.

IMHO

[Dark Knight]

quote:i think it's best too have multiple perspectives, but if your ego is too big and you always think everything you believe is right, then we get these flame wars. every situation is different, and you should look at each one differently, even if you think it is the same thing that has effected you before.

Shedt you're right, but even in varying levels there are absolutes (even an absolute is a degree). If you've fallen into a lake and you're drowning, it's an absolute that you're drowning, there is no room for debate. How would you feel if you were drowning and people were standing by the shore debating whether or not it was actually happening? What would that do to your sense of human dignity, your sense of belonging to creation? Shedt, you have a kind heart, but too many people are coming here out of desperation and from reading Robert's book, and instead of getting help they are getting attitudes which place them further under the control of whatever negs are attacking them.

Another problem is that when people are terrified out of their minds they don't communicate well, because either they don't have the words or don't know how to express. They express the basics, which resemble any mental illness. Widfis described his girlfriend's condition one way, then a second time, gave more detail. Alumendor described his daughter's experiences, they intially sounded like a drug or mental problem, then later on he gave more detail, and unless Holy Water cures Mental Problems...I can provide countless examples from previous threads. It's like "Can't you see what's happening to me, isn't it obvious?" That's why I, Spectral, and a host of other people ask for more information over and over. You have to be patient and not take things at face value, because odds are, it isn't.

[shedt]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

quote:i think it's best too have multiple perspectives, but if your ego is too big and you always think everything you believe is right, then we get these flame wars. every situation is different, and you should look at each one differently, even if you think it is the same thing that has effected you before.

Shedt you're right, but even in varying levels there are absolutes (even an absolute is a degree). If you've fallen into a lake and you're drowning, it's an absolute that you're drowning, there is no room for debate.

why ? can i swim ? is the water cold ? am i wearing clothes that are making it hard for me too float ? people have "drowned" and have been brought back before.

quote:
How would you feel if you were drowning and people were standing by the shore debating whether or not it was actually happening?

well, it depends. maybe your a expert swimmer and they know that. there could be multiple variables. not everyone has the same belief systems. Maybe you think you are drowning, and you find out the water is only a few feet deep.... as well, you can drown on only a tea-spoon of water i heard....

quote:
What would that do to your sense of human dignity, your sense of belonging to creation?

if you need help, and you are drowning, then yell. if in reality the water is only 3 feet deep, and they tell you such, and you refuse too believe so then ask yourself, are you really drowning ?

you can always say, I need your help, I cannot stand up. but if you don't say so then they will not know.

and if they refuse then they are not nice i guess.

quote:
Shedt, you have a kind heart, but too many people are coming here out of desperation and from reading Robert's book, and instead of getting help they are getting attitudes which place them further under the control of whatever negs are attacking them.

but alot of them are coming here and they are looking for only a solution, when sometimes they just need too look at their situation. with any problem you need to diagnoise it first. and even if you do, how do you know that is the ocrrect one ?

i have a question here for Spectral, how do you know if something is a neg, or a thought form someone creates from their own mind ?

quote:
Another problem is that when people are terrified out of their minds they don't communicate well, because either they don't have the words or don't know how to express.

yes this would be a problem, but they themselves I believe are the only ones that would hamper themselves too learn how too better communicate. sometimes people don't communicate well beacuse of thier ego. they only see it their way, and before they ever come here they have thier mind already made up.

quote:They express the basics, which resemble any mental illness.

yes, and it should never be ruled out that it is not a mental illness.

to do so would be ignorant i believe.

quote:
Widfis described his girlfriend's condition one way, then a second time, gave more detail. Alumendor described his daughter's experiences, they intially sounded like a drug or mental problem, then later on he gave more detail, and unless Holy Water cures Mental Problems...

it can cure a mental problem if you Beleieve its the only thing that can help you. that's called a placebo correct ? i think even in the church the first things they do is too check if it is a mental problem.

quote:I can provide countless examples from previous threads. It's like "Can't you see what's happening to me, isn't it obvious?"

well, you should never i think rule out anything personally.

quote:
That's why I, Spectral, and a host of other people ask for more information over and over. You have to be patient and not take things at face value, because odds are, it isn't.

i agree.

[Dark Knight]

quote:well, it depends. maybe your a expert swimmer and they know that. there could be multiple variables. not everyone has the same belief systems. Maybe you think you are drowning, and you find out the water is only a few feet deep.... as well, you can drown on only a tea-spoon of water i heard....

Did you ask or just assume. What about your thoughts or how you think?

quote:yes this would be a problem, but they themselves I believe are the only ones that would hamper themselves too learn how too better communicate.

No Shedt, you have a responsiblity. You aren't going to die if you need to learn how to be more empathic or patient with people...that is also a form of communication, and one you should make an effort to learn. You aren't the one struggling, and making an effort ot be empathic is the most postive show of love anyone can display to another, and most times, that is what people need to see, not aloofness or judgement from the ones safe on the shore.

[shedt]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

quote:well, it depends. maybe your a expert swimmer and they know that. there could be multiple variables. not everyone has the same belief systems. Maybe you think you are drowning, and you find out the water is only a few feet deep.... as well, you can drown on only a tea-spoon of water i heard....

Did you ask or just assume. What about your thoughts or how you think?

assume what ? can you re-phrase that please ? I'm confused at what you are saying.

quote:yes this would be a problem, but they themselves I believe are the only ones that would hamper themselves too learn how too better communicate.

quote:
No Shedt, you have a responsiblity.

it takes two to communicate. The responisibity should be equal. If someone does not understand me, i should try my hardest too also listen and try too learn how too better too communicate what i am saying.

it's a equal thing i believe.

quote:
You aren't going to die if you need to learn how to be more empathic or patient with people...

but this is too fold, you have too give the same respect to someone you are trying too communicate with. IMHO

quote:
that is also a form of communication, and one you should make an effort to learn.

how is it a form of communication ?

yes, but it still should be equal. if someone does not understand me, i should not yell at them, i should try and explain myself better. rise above the situation and not lower myself.

multiple perspectives.

quote:
You aren't the one struggling, and making an effort ot be empathic is the most postive show of love anyone can display to another, and most times, that is what people need to see, not aloofness or judgement from the ones safe on the shore.

but it's like being positive too. you even said it yourself, you can be positive at the wrong time. this will go the same as being empathic. If a person does not try too help themselves and is feeding off other's, then maybe the timeimg is right too not be empathic ?

[Dark Knight]

quote:how is it a form of communication ?

You have got to be kidding me? Empathy and understanding another person's experience? How is that not communication? What is your definition of communication exactly?

quote:it takes two to communicate. The responisibity should be equal.

How long have you been married?!? No, it's not always equal, sometimes the one that is in the position to give more has the responsiblity to do so. You don't expect it from other people, especially if they are vulnerable and may be unable to do so. Your feelings, your ego, is not more valuable than a person? That isn't how you prioritize.

quote:assume what ? can you re-phrase that please ? I'm confused at what you are saying.

What about how YOU think, how your priorities affect others? Does that mean anything?

quote:If a person does not try too help themselves and is feeding off other's, then maybe the timeimg is right too not be empathic ?

You don't make that demand on the spot! People need time to grow, and they need support! You don't automatically assume because they aren't doing it when you think it should be done it's because they're lazy, irresponsible, whatever. They need to be weened off!

[Dark Knight]

quote:You know, if you can Astral Project, has it ever occurred to you to go with Enderwiggin or Spectral Dragon and see what is actually happening, instead of assuming we're all just making this crap up?

Just a challenge, not an attack, you're not gonna die.

James you said you thought maybe you needed more experience. Assuming you can do what I can't, why don't you guys AP and interact with what Spectral and Ender interact with. Look for yourselves.

Well, any takers. It's just crap right, people under attack are mostly making this up, right? Most people are just mentally ill so there is nothing really out there, right? Not like you're gonna get attacked or attached or get ripped away from your body, right?

[shedt]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

quote:how is it a form of communication ?

You have got to be kidding me? Empathy and understanding another person's experience? How is that not communication? What is your definition of communication exactly?

I supose if you are trying too communicate feelings sure.

quote:it takes two to communicate. The responisibity should be equal.

How long have you been married?!?

what does my marriage have too do with this disscusion ?

quote:
No, it's not always equal, sometimes the one that is in the position to give more has the responsiblity to do so.

it may not always be equal, but it should be IMHO. if you are going too give that is your choice.

is it right too take from another without thier consent ?

quote:
You don't expect it from other people, especially if they are vulnerable and may be unable to do so.

why should i not expect others too act equally ?

if i choose too give that is my choice.

it does not make someone elses choice too take without asking, or too be angry and hostile correct.

quote:
Your feelings, your ego, is not more valuable than a person?

i never said it was. helping and communicating too a person is what this is about. both parties should respect each other and be treated equally i believe.

quote:
That isn't how you prioritize.

why ? why must it always be only one way ?

quote:assume what ? can you re-phrase that please ? I'm confused at what you are saying.

quote:
What about how YOU think, how your priorities affect others? Does that mean anything?

just as much as thier priorities.it should be equal. i think i should try my hardest too be equal, what do you think ?

quote:If a person does not try too help themselves and is feeding off other's, then maybe the timeimg is right too not be empathic ?

quote:You don't make that demand on the spot!

i did not say i was making a demand. it's a choice.

quote:People need time to grow, and they need support!

ok, but why do you keep lumping everything as one thing ?

not every person and every situation is the same.

quote:
You don't automatically assume because they aren't doing it when you think it should be done it's because they're lazy, irresponsible, whatever. They need to be weened off!
[/quote]
that is one perspective, can you think of some more ?

[Dark Knight]

Because there is a pattern to life and how we grow and evolve, it's not the "scattered to the four winds different to the point of being unrecognizable by everyone" circumstance you appear to be embracing.

Rape, murder, mugging, psychic attack, death, even a break up of a relationship are all similiar forms of loss in varying levels of intensity. Like a pin prick is one level of pain and a gunshot is a much higher level of pain...but both are a form of pain. In the internal there is disentegration of certain boundaries depending on the level of intensity of the experience. The more intense, the more boundary destruction there is. We have similiarites as people, we need understanding, we need support, we need to receive from people and we need to give.

Your questions aren't doing anything, just creating a circular generalized argument. Try being specific.

[shedt]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

Because there is a pattern to life and how we grow and evolve, it's not the "scattered to the four winds different to the point of being unrecognizable by everyone" circumstance you appear to be embracing.

Rape, murder, mugging, psychic attack, death, even a break up of a relationship are all similiar forms of loss in varying levels of intensity. Like a pin prick is one level of pain and a gunshot is a much higher level of pain...but both are a form of pain. In the internal there is disentegration of certain boundaries depending on the level of intensity of the experience. The more intense, the more boundary destruction there is. We have similiarites as people, we need understanding, we need support, we need to receive from people and we need to give.

Your questions aren't doing anything, just creating a circular generalized argument. Try being specific.

i was specific. like, what does my marrige have to do with this topic ?

[Dark Knight]

quote:i was specific. like, what does my marrige have to do with this topic ?

No, this is challenging for the hell of challenging. Your not assigning anything to feel anything out. You're keeping mental and airy, and we're mental, emotional, physical and spiritual.

[rhinegirl]

Methinks she's attempting to scope you out to see if your single. Most people correct false assumptions even when it's weird people making those assumptions.

I find your reasoning to be well fomulated. DK does indeed go in circles. Circular arguements are one way psychic vampires cause others to lower and weaken their defenses thus making them more easily fed upon.

Jessica

quote:Originally posted by shedt

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

Because there is a pattern to life and how we grow and evolve, it's not the "scattered to the four winds different to the point of being unrecognizable by everyone" circumstance you appear to be embracing.

Rape, murder, mugging, psychic attack, death, even a break up of a relationship are all similiar forms of loss in varying levels of intensity. Like a pin prick is one level of pain and a gunshot is a much higher level of pain...but both are a form of pain. In the internal there is disentegration of certain boundaries depending on the level of intensity of the experience. The more intense, the more boundary destruction there is. We have similiarites as people, we need understanding, we need support, we need to receive from people and we need to give.

Your questions aren't doing anything, just creating a circular generalized argument. Try being specific.

i was specific. like, what does my marrige have to do with this topic ?

[Anonymous]

I make no accusations in my following statement.

Flaming is BAD. It accomplishes nothing, it's just destructive and it's a waste of everybody's time and energy. So if you're going to argue, do it logically and be civilized about it. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, but when you start accusing people of things in a hostile manner, things get out of hand. The whole reason Fat Turkey's post went crazy in the first place is because of the fact that the very first sentence he used was flaming and it caused lots of tension for everyone. That sends a message to others that it's okay to flame. Nobody bothered to publicly address this with him. From there, everyone else started flaming and bashing. Now I believe I am seeing it here on my own thread, and I'm just asking that it will stop. No more retaliation. We all live in glass houses, so nobody should throw stones. Yes, me too. I've got my own faults, and I've made them quite apparent at times here on this forum. I admit to them and I won't try to deny them. I just ask that people stop ragging on each other. Fighting amongst ourselves is solving nothing. it gives our common enemy time to prepare an attack. If we simply put forth our observations, it would be a lot more helpful. When you take apart a valid argument, you are left with the one thing nobody can deny: facts. In case you've forgotten facts pertain to phenomena that are true. It is from facts that we must build our arguments. Now let's stop fighting our fellow brothers and sisters and unite, under the common threat we all face if nothing else, each and every one of us, so that we can accomplish something.

[James S]

Ender- thank you for you thoughts, and thank you for trying to bring these arguments to an end.

People can become so used to opposing a particular persons view, they can forget why they originally opposed them.

I have been guilty of letting my anger speak through my words here. It isn't nice, and I will often feel guilty about it afterwards.

A good way to avoid this is to use Word or Wordpad to type up your response, but don't post it. Start out as angry as you like. Use as much foul language and abuse as you want. This will get it out of your system. Then read through it a couple of times once you've calmed down and see if it is really what you want to say. Once you proof-read your own posts a couple of times you'll end up editing it a lot, and the end result will most likely be something much more thoughtful, and to the point.

Ok, so this means that you're not engaging in a rapid fire debate. The best debates are ones that are well thought out, not emotional and reactive. It also becomes more obvious when your arguing against someone who's stuck in a thought loop, and totally intent on their own perspectives, because they will tend to miss key elements of your argument, typically the ones designed to move the conversation forward.

A friend told me this quote just recently. I thought it appropriate, although it really isn't very politically correct so please don't take offence to it:
Argueing (in anger) on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. You might win, but you're still retarded.

regards,
James.

[Sam]

Enderwiggin you are absolutely right, and I agree with everything in your latest post.

When I saw this thread and how quickly old perspectives began to clash, I thought oh no, here we go again.  Nobody was listening to me when I said that these issues have to be sorted out were they?  Didn't I say that ignoring them wouldn't make them go away.  I told you so.

So, lets put an end to this pointless argument, sweep old predjudices under the carpet and hear nothing of them ever again.  Well, except when the lump under the carpet keeps on tripping the guests on their faces.

[SpectralDragon]

whoops, should have posted my topic here![:I] sorry guys.

EDIT:
WHAT IS WRONG WITH PSD?

NO CLARITY IN POSTS OR IDEAS. We are all arguing because we don't understand each other and we are not trying to. We are causing harm to ourselves and we are starting our own negativity. negative feeds off of negative. ALL OF US ARE GUILTY OF THIS!!! Let's break the patterns here and start something more positive!!![]

I am seeing people (myself included) trying to act all spiritual and fluffy and new-agy. Let's just get to the point and be more clear what we are trying to say.

[Sam]

YES!!! Clarity is definately needed!  I for one believe in balance, so you should check out my topic about balance (which on second thoughts maybe should have been part of this topic, so here it is http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10569).

Pulling apart people's responses peice by peice isn't helping, its just adding confusion.  By doing it you are reducing the person's point to a bunch of unrelated statements.  A point is the sum of its parts.  The point needs to be addressed directly, because if you prove the "parts" wrong then there are always plenty of other "parts" to take their place.  If you keep arguing about the parts the point gets ignored, and you forget why the argument started in the first place.

[lullabi]

Oh what a world, what a world.

[Sam]

What's your point, lullabi?

[lullabi]

Who said I had a point? []

[Dark Knight]

There also has to be realistic goals to set. To overcome this and take responsiblity, a goal has to be set that is attainable. Setting unrealistic goals that can't be met dooms personal responsiblity from ever getting off the ground. Philosophizing about what the goals might be never solidifies anything or creates anything positive. Failure after failure and precious energy sucked away.

That's not a life. Action creates and solidifies in the physical world we live in, not philosphizing or good intentions.

[Anonymous]

I agree. Actions speak louder than words. So let's take actions that will make this forum a better place for everyone, by controlling what we say and how we say it. And no more circular arguments. Patience is one thing, but sometimes these arguments get a little excessively philosophical, and, as Sam said, we often tend to get away from the actual subject to the point where we forgot what we were arguing about in the first place. Let's keep these topics on track. If you want to talk about something else, start your own thread.