Shrodgennr's Cat Goes To Court

[Kajua]

A question poised to me last year by a librarian was mulling in my mind after a talk about the relativity of illegality, with my mum, today inspired me to write this topic.

The topic of discussion today is;

"It's only illegal if you get caught"

My argument:

Only does it become illegal when someone realizes or points out that it is illegal.

ie: a cop finds out you sped in the slow lane and gives you a ticket but until the actual point where you were given a ticket-it was not illegal (TO YOU). Up until that point, the box had not been opened on that reality where the conclusion was made by the cop that you had commited something illegal. Therefore; it is only illegal once you are told it is illegal. Without the cop- it is not illegal if you do not RECOGNIZE it to being illegal.

Therefore, my final point; Everything is relative. Quantum physics exists all around us in practically every scenario to living.

Mathematically speaking;

Perception + Awareness (Recognition/analyzing) + Relativity ---> Future outcome + Reality

Actually I think I flawed that equation...Ignore that if it doesn't make sense because I fiddled with the definitions of the variables for a few minutes....Yeah just ignore it unless it makes senses (phew-fluke!)

Relevant quote:
Modern Western society says you're innocent until proven guilty.

[MisterJingo]

If you don't know its illegal, then to you its not. But in regards to the law, everything is not relative .
The law sees it as ignorance is not an excuse

So if one gets caught during an illegal act, even if the was no awarness the act was illegal, we are still punished. So surely awaerness plays little part in the outcome in regards to reality? (ie if it did, the act would not be illegal even when caught as our belief dictates it is not)

[jilola]

This is the case for carefull consideraton of the frame of reference.

Speeding is illegal because in the Societal Frame of reference (SFOR) of the society it has been deemed so.
For Your Frame of Reference (YFOR) , it may not be so.

So at the same time it is illegal and not illegal. Until the moment you get stopped and must relate YFOR with SFOR.  

In the context of the society SFOR dominates YFOR, meaning you'll get the ticket and are probably ticked off about it.

What is the deciding context? The matter of illegality/legality is a choice made in the societal context. It tends to follow the perception of the majority but  not always. Nevertheless, in the SFOR gets inposed on you and you get the ticket.

Choice and consequence is what is going on in the act of reconciliating the YFOR and SFOR. The act of speeding is illegal regardless of getting caught or not. Then only difference is that if you ARE caught you have to accept the consequences, ie. the ticket.

There are the thesis the the antithesis. What is the synthesis?

You always have the choice of perceiving and acting within YFOR. That is called free will. At some points the free will of others (SFOR) willl atempt to limit your choices. The result is a conflict aka consequences.

Does that make driving fast bad? No.
Does that make driving above the speed limit bad? In the SFOR it does.
Dooe sthat make you a bad person? No as long as you accept the consequences of resolving the conflict between the two frames of reference.

The part where things get interesting is when you start thining about where the line between the SFOR and YFOR gets drawn. How much control over your choices can the cosiety have?  And what can the society  impose on you if you step over the line?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[cainam_nazier]

If you don't know its illegal, then to you its not. But in regards to the law, everything is not relative .
The law sees it as ignorance is not an excuse

So if one gets caught during an illegal act, even if the was no awareness the act was illegal, we are still punished. So surely awareness plays little part in the outcome in regards to reality? (ie if it did, the act would not be illegal even when caught as our belief dictates it is not)

Ahh, but this is not true.  I have a friend who has a certain "moral flexibility" and after seeing a professional in his earlier years was pronounced legally "crazy".  His values on right and wrong are way outside the society norm, so there are a great many things that are illegal that he would have no compunctions doing because to him there is nothing wrong with it.  If it were not for the fact that he had/has the capacity to learn what the society norm then he would have to live in an institution of some kind.  But his personal feelings still say that those other things are okay.

Awareness plays a huge part in laws....hence the insanity plea.  Which if argued correctly could be used to get out of a traffic ticket.  But in order for a person to be fully punished, under the laws of the US, he or she must be mentally aware of the concept of good and bad and able to understand cause and effect.

[MisterJingo]

If you don't know its illegal, then to you its not. But in regards to the law, everything is not relative .
The law sees it as ignorance is not an excuse

So if one gets caught during an illegal act, even if the was no awareness the act was illegal, we are still punished. So surely awareness plays little part in the outcome in regards to reality? (ie if it did, the act would not be illegal even when caught as our belief dictates it is not)

Ahh, but this is not true.  I have a friend who has a certain "moral flexibility" and after seeing a professional in his earlier years was pronounced legally "crazy".  His values on right and wrong are way outside the society norm, so there are a great many things that are illegal that he would have no compunctions doing because to him there is nothing wrong with it.  If it were not for the fact that he had/has the capacity to learn what the society norm then he would have to live in an institution of some kind.  But his personal feelings still say that those other things are okay.

Awareness plays a huge part in laws....hence the insanity plea.  Which if argued correctly could be used to get out of a traffic ticket.  But in order for a person to be fully punished, under the laws of the US, he or she must be mentally aware of the concept of good and bad and able to understand cause and effect.

An insanity plea might get you out of a traffic ticket. But at what cost? Potentially being sectioned?
I know of many cases under UK law where people have been prosecuted and found guilty even though they claimed they had no idea what they did was illegal (hence lack of of knowledge is not considered a defence - in the UK at least).

[ubiquitous]

are positrons going to jail ?
u can borrow from the quantum vacuum whatever u like as long as ya pay it back, without anyone noticing.
what ya can't see don't hurt ya,laws are there to be broken.