Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality

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WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: HypernicusWhat is there in meat that humans need and what food can substitute it? Protein was mentioned, and is that all?

Humans can get all the protein we need from plant sources.

As far as I know the only thing that cannot be found in fruits and vegetables is vitamin B12, though there are vegan sources of this. But I need to do more research on this, and maybe others too. It use to thought that meat was the best source of protein, after all.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

MisterJingo

Quote from: SS_Patrick
Quote from: Lighthouse
Quote

As One, if you feel judgment of "another" for something they do, that is something you might wish to explore within because the one you are judging is yourself.  

Kerri


I don't believe that at all. Perhaps it could be said in some sense, that everything is one, but we are still not the same thing. Even though everything is interconnected, we are different individuals, different souls.


This has nothing to do with all 'being one', but more to do with human behaviour. In short, we judge ourselves by our own prejudices. If we innately judge others for whatever reason, those mechanisms are used to shape our world view, so even if it's not on a conscious level, those views shape our view of ourselves.
If we hold hate for a person, that hate is generated and held internally – and so for every emotion.

WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: Hypernicus
Can one just stop eating meat? Will the body do something when it hasn't had meat for a while?

One can just stop eating meat, though depending on your current diet it might be better to gradually come off of it by stop eating beef, then pork, chicken, and finally fish.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Nay

Quote from: learningI think that being vegan is healthiest for the planet and the people.  I noticed that vegans are usually much kinder than meat eaters.  There must be some reason.

LOL.   You must be one of those mean meat eaters... because we all know that a vegan wouldn't say such a hateful, blanketed statement.  :lol:

greatoutdoors

Alaskans>
You make an excellent point. Those who claim they don't kill because they don't eat meat are fooling only themselves. You must kill to survive – end of story.

Plants are no less alive because they cannot communicate with us. Who knows, to them, we may not seem "alive" because we miss so much of what they perceive!  :wink:

Adrian,
It is well that you choose to be vegan, but you could not sustain it without nutritional supplements or, as Alaskans said, in a truly natural environment. Alaskans is also correct about omnivore vs. vegetarian. Humans were most certainly designed to be omnivorous – that includes meat.

I agree whole-heartedly on disliking the "food factory" environment we presently live in. But that is not limited to meat factories. I "guestimate" probably 95% of our vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. are produced in the same manner. That is what is going to bite us in the butt in the long run – as it is already doing health-wise.

You say vegans eat a natural human diet. That is only partially true. Vegans eat a highly artificial diet that would be unsustainable in nature. As to vegans living longer than meat-eaters, even if true, there are many explanations for it that have nothing to do with meat or the lack of it. There have been studies done on both animals and humans that show a diet deficient in calories will extend your life span. That is one possible explanation. There are many others.  :confused:

Most people could eat a lot less meat than they do with no harm done. This is shown by cultures in which meat makes up a small part of their diet. But even those cultures certainly do eat meat, mostly in the form of fish, squid, etc.

The closest thing to a non-meat culture I can think of would be the Japanese, Chinese and folks on the Pacific Rim. But they are not meatless. They rely on fish (and other sea food) and supplement with chicken, pigs, etc.

Hypernicus,
Vegans do not eat fish, egg or milk. They eat nothing with any animal connection. A vegetarian eats diary products and fish as part of their diet. If you are going to go vegan, you should read up on nutritional needs carefully. You can be a vegetarian without supplements, but on a vegan diet you will need supplements. No diet is a magic formula to good health -- exercise plays a huge role in how we feel.

Fallnangel77,
Early humans had brains as part of their arsenal. (How we are using them lately is another subject entirely!  :shock:  :lol: ) I can give many examples of humans killing and eating, as I did in my earlier post. Early humans would drive animals off cliff edges when they could. Cave art shows them killing animals with spears and such. That goes on today with other species, and other cultures.

Native Americans hunted Buffalo on horseback, but they also tracked and killed deer and other animals on foot, sometimes with nothing more than a knife. It was traditional to eat certain parts of the animal on the spot. Snares, nets, deadfalls were (and are) also weapons in early man's arsenal. Pygmies in Africa use poisoned darts (blowguns) to kill prey.

I know there is more than grass to eat, but think about it. What would you eat in the middle of winter if there were no grocery stores or restaurants? Or better yet, in early spring when any stored food was almost certainly in short supply? And for that matter, how would you store a winter's worth of food?

Here is a link that discusses early agriculture: http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/~sare/backinfo.html.

If you can give me examples of cultures that don't eat meat in their normal diet I would appreciate it. I have done some research in nutrition and am always interested in adding to that knowledge.

I am playing devil's advocate somewhat in this post, but if true, beneficial change is to be made, then people first have to deal with the way things are – not just how we wish they were.

PS: There seems to be an issue about eating raw meat. That was the least of early human problems and is not a huge issue for many people today. How many of you eat sashimi? How many cringe at sushi? The Tom Hanks movie, Cast Away, sheds some light on what folks will eat when they have to.

Hypernicus

Why cut out fish? Nothing can substitute it? Fish is some of the healthiest and most needed food for human body in the world.

greatoutdoors


Hypernicus


Nay

Nice post greatoutdoors.  This is one of those subjects that always seems to turn into a "I'm better than you" war....either physically, mentally or spiritually.  Gets very old for me to see it.  Now I'm just indifferent to the whole subject.  

:seesaw:

WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: NayNice post greatoutdoors.  This is one of those subjects that always seems to turn into a "I'm better than you" war....either physically, mentally or spiritually.  Gets very old for me to see it.  Now I'm just indifferent to the whole subject.  

:seesaw:

On my part I don't think anyone is better than anyone else so I certainly hope that I do not come off as such. I could honestly careless what anyone eats. I respect everyone who has posted even if we disagree.

To be honest, a few years ago when this was discussed before I disagreed with Adrian. But just recently I had a moment of "enlightenment" that made me change my mind.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: greatoutdoors


Adrian,
It is well that you choose to be vegan, but you could not sustain it without nutritional supplements or, as Alaskans said, in a truly natural environment. Alaskans is also correct about omnivore vs. vegetarian. Humans were most certainly designed to be omnivorous – that includes meat.

The only supplement that is needed in a diet without meat is vitamin B12, and that could be debated. B12 is produced by bacteria so it really has nothing to do with meat. It can be all around us. The only reason that meat is considered the only source of B12 is because it is the only consist source in general. It can be all over fruits and vegetables, or it may not. It can be in the air, water, and soil. If we did not wash our fruit and veggies so rigorously then we would most likely get plenty. But due to the chemicals we use on our plants it is needed. So a supplement is best taken to play it safe.


Quote
I agree whole-heartedly on disliking the "food factory" environment we presently live in. But that is not limited to meat factories. I "guestimate" probably 95% of our vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. are produced in the same manner. That is what is going to bite us in the butt in the long run – as it is already doing health-wise.

It takes a lot less resources to produce fruits and vegetables than it does for meat, even organics. Organic fruit and vegetables are becoming a lot more available and the prices are dropping (atleast in some areas which has been debated else where  :smile:  ) What are the similarities?

Quote
You say vegans eat a natural human diet. That is only partially true. Vegans eat a highly artificial diet that would be unsustainable in nature.

How is a vegan diet artificial? As for it being unsustainable in nature, I have not thought it through but for the most part it is very sustainable.

Quote
Most people could eat a lot less meat than they do with no harm done.

Even the US government will admit to that, so that is saying a lot.  :lol: But I think we can all agree on that.


Quote
I know there is more than grass to eat, but think about it. What would you eat in the middle of winter if there were no grocery stores or restaurants? Or better yet, in early spring when any stored food was almost certainly in short supply? And for that matter, how would you store a winter's worth of food?

First, vegetables don't all just grow during the warm to hot summer months. Some like cooler weather. There are those that are ready to eat in the Spring, Summer, and Fall. The only time growing or finding vegetables to eat would be a problem would be in the dead of winter, though that would depend on your location. Some places can grow crops all year round.

Here one would only need to store a food supply for a few months, and they use to do it but it has been largely forgotten now in this day and age. Today we have refrigeration to keep anything we grow for some time. Though without it most people had root cellars which were similar and would keep vegetables for awhile as well. Then you can can your vegetables. I remember my grandparents doing it all the time. That would keep things over the winter.



Quote
If you can give me examples of cultures that don't eat meat in their normal diet I would appreciate it. I have done some research in nutrition and am always interested in adding to that knowledge.

Indians (those from india) have had a vegetarian diet for some time, for religious reasons.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: HypernicusWhy cut out fish? Nothing can substitute it? Fish is some of the healthiest and most needed food for human body in the world.

Fish is the healthiest meat one can eat. Flax seeds contain omega 3 fatty acid like that in fish so if you cut out fish be sure to add this to your diet.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Alaskans

First, vegetables don't all just grow during the warm to hot summer months. Some like cooler weather. There are those that are ready to eat in the Spring, Summer, and Fall. The only time growing or finding vegetables to eat would be a problem would be in the dead of winter, though that would depend on your location. [/quote]
You can't harvest anything in the spring here, no way. But early fall is good.
Quote from: fallnangel77Some places can grow crops all year round.
I'm always laughing at the survival movies where they get stranded on a tropical island paradise (like cast away.) Looks more like a vacation to me. However, most parts of the world aren't tropical.

Quote from: fallnangel77Here one would only need to store a food supply for a few months, and they use to do it but it has been largely forgotten now in this day and age. Today we have refrigeration to keep anything we grow for some time. Though without it most people had root cellars which were similar and would keep vegetables for awhile as well. Then you can can your vegetables. I remember my grandparents doing it all the time. That would keep things over the winter. .
Its not forgotten here, Eskimos would put their fruit in fish/animal oil in their  permafrost cellars (now the permafrost is melting and they have to switch to refrigerators :confused: ). The fruit was only used for Eskimo ice cream (whale blubber), not as a real source of food. Tell an Eskimo he has to become a vegan and he would laugh. The thought is ridiculous, there is no way you can live in the arctic on celery sticks, or even as many berries as you can possibly pick in a season. 50 years ago most Eskimo's couldn't exactly go to the store, pick up some potatoes or seeds for cabbage and lettuce and start a farm. And they couldn't exactly burn their fur parkas and snow pants to wear lichen in -80f weather cause they didn't want to harm any animal. Sure, not many people lived in the arctic, but other parts of the world its the same, we relied on animals for the existence of the human race. That is why so many cultures hold animals in the utmost respect and reverence, they give their life for ours, they pulled us through drought, famine and the ice age.

This is one of those never ending subjects, probably worse than pro-life/pro-choice, where views get narrower and narrower. This is my last post on this thread.

P.S. Thats a very interesting link Hypernicus  :yikes2:  Maybe im not crazy afterall :crazy:
Every single person is an enigma of wonder waiting patiently to be realized.

Scoff if you want; soon we will be leading the race to new heights and you will wish you had followed us in our search for truth.

malganis

I think everyone should eat according to their metabolic type. Some dont need much proteins while others do.

I was vegeterian for one year. Stopped few months ago. I never thought i would get back to eating meat but i did. I wasnt really careful about my diet. I ate a lot of fruit. At first i ate avocadoes but after 10 of them i now get sick just by thinking on them.  Before i was 63 kg (174cm height) and went down to 55 kg very fast, while eating only apples during the day. After a week i was spending three hours in toilet so is started eating cooked food again.
I went to 52 kg for a while due to sickness. I became a bit scared at that time but i was still determined to continue. I started eating more various food. When my gums receeded a bit i started to doubt in this my diet. Now i eat more eggs and meat as weel and i gained weight back. Almost.

And something more on topic.

http://mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
"What are you doing here, Nasrudin? his neighbor asks. "I'm looking for a key which I lost
in the wood?" Nasrudin replies. "Why don't you look for it in the wood?" says the neighbor,
wondering at Nasrudin's folly. "Because there is much more light here"

WalkerInTheWoods

Alaskans>, you don't have to stop posting. We are just discussing and that is my goal, not "winning". You are probably right that things are getting circular on that subject so a change.

To be completely honest if my only option was to kill an animal to survive I probably would. But for me right now, as well as I am sure most (though maybe not all) people on here we don't have to worry about surviving off the land. We have grocery stores, farmers markets, restaurants, and many sources to get food. When I go to the store to buy food I know that unless the meat says otherwise (though this is rare here) that the animal was most likely kept in a cage or stall its entire life where it was most likely fed food it would not normally eat and given drugs and chemicals to "enhance" it so it will provide more meat and to keep it alive long enough to do so. Since it is in an unnatural environment infection and disease is common, so more drugs are needed to keep it alive. These drugs and chemicals are then passed on to the customer at the grocery store in the meat they buy. The animals well being is ignored in these meat factories. I work with a guy who use to work in a slaughter house. He did not do any killing, but he saw enough of what went on and it was not a pleasant experience as the animals throats were slit and then carved up before they were even dead. I cannot in good conscious support an industry that makes animals suffer their entire life. Buy buying the meat I am saying that this is ok, and I do not think it is. I can get everything I need from non-animal sources so I why should I contribute to the suffering of animals when I don't have to. That is the reality I live in. Yours may or may not be different, but as one who strives to be spiritually aware I cannot ignore where my food comes from.

Hypernicus, that looks like an interesting article. I have only scanned over it but I intent to read it all soon. From what I gather it implies that plants are conscious, which I whole heartedly agree. Plants are very important to me spiritually. I love and respect all plants. The thing about a vegetarian diet is that I am not killing plants to eat. I am eating the fruit which the plant has produced to be dropped in order to spread its seeds. If I did not eat the fruit from the plant then the fruit would either drop and rot or be eaten by bugs or animals. The fruits' sole purpose is to be removed.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

WalkerInTheWoods

Quote from: malganisI think everyone should eat according to their metabolic type. Some dont need much proteins while others do.

I was vegeterian for one year. Stopped few months ago. I never thought i would get back to eating meat but i did. I wasnt really careful about my diet. I ate a lot of fruit. At first i ate avocadoes but after 10 of them i now get sick just by thinking on them.  Before i was 63 kg (174cm height) and went down to 55 kg very fast, while eating only apples during the day. After a week i was spending three hours in toilet so is started eating cooked food again.
I went to 52 kg for a while due to sickness. I became a bit scared at that time but i was still determined to continue. I started eating more various food. When my gums receeded a bit i started to doubt in this my diet. Now i eat more eggs and meat as weel and i gained weight back. Almost.

And something more on topic.

http://mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm


Any diet must have variety and everyone should do research to make sure they are getting what they need, especially when you change your diet.

Just looking at the beginning of the article that is just silly. I know plenty of vegetarians who have had good pregnancies and healthy babies and plenty of meat eaters who have miscarried. I think it is terrible for the doctor to blame her miscarriage on her not eating animal products. I know two doctors that would disagree and say that a vegetarian diet is much better for you.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Nay

Geeeeeez... lets call it a tie, shall we?  

Talk about having the last word... :roll:  Oh wait.. I, for right now, have it.   :grin:

Vilkate

~Our name is Eternity~

On my way to the infinite universe of Light and Unity.

greatoutdoors

I love having the last word!  :lol:  :lol: (Nay, the ball is in your court!)

Fallnangel77,
I totally agree with your rationale, but have just about admitted defeat. I believe that we "privileged, spoiled Americans" are caught in an economic trap. I know that pretty much every bite of anything I eat (vegetable or meat) is laced with toxins, pesticides, or mutated genes. But not being independently wealthy, I can't pay five prices for "real" food. So I close my eyes and eat it anyway. I also know that current food production practices cannot continue forever.

If I were king, my goal would not be "meatless vs. vegan," but rather, sustainability. It takes a harmonious circle of plants and animals to ensure that all survive. Within that circle is room for all diet preferences. PBS has had a couple of excellent programs on this subject -- one which was "The History of Chickens."  :lol:

Getting back to the point of the thread, IMO there is no negative karma attached to killing to survive. Karma issues come into play when you are cruel, whatever the reason – whenever you inflict needless suffering.

Actually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?

Nay

QuoteActually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?
I really need to find a emoticon that is a can of worms.  

Ball in my court huh?  

:grin: :lol:

Selski

Quote from: Nay

That's a great smiley Nay - care to share where you got it from?  :smile:

Sarah

PS  I'm sure I've got something to say about this thread, but not tonight.
We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

WalkerInTheWoods

Greatoutdoors,

I do agree with you that what we need most is sustainability. We need to strive for healthy food and healthy food production. That in itself would lead to better karma. I see more and more organic and natural foods on the shelves, so obviously the demand is there and more people must becoming more aware. So hopefully we are starting on the path. As the supply increases and the production practices become more efficient, then prices will come down as well.

I think one very important step in this direction is for people to start growing some of their own food again. This would exclude meat for a lot of people, but even those that live in apartments can grow a few vegetable plants.

QuoteActually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?

That is a complicated question, especially for being so vague. I do think you reap what you sow. If you sow cruelty you will become more cruel. But how can you be cruel and not really know it? Maybe that is the purpose of this "law". As you reap more and more of whatever it is you sow, you become more aware of it. Karma is based on intent, but life is rarely black and white.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Alaskans

You have very good insight fallnangel  :thumbsup: I like people with good insight. I agree with the fruit idea, fruit is grown by the plant in order to be eaten. Basicly the plant is giving you permission to eat that part of it, in exchange for scattering the seeds.

I also agree that we should as a simi-advanced species lean tward non-meat foods (I know I didnt sound like it, but I wasnt trying to prove we should just eat meat, only that its not 'evil', it is sometimes neccicary.)
Every single person is an enigma of wonder waiting patiently to be realized.

Scoff if you want; soon we will be leading the race to new heights and you will wish you had followed us in our search for truth.

WalkerInTheWoods

Thank you Alaskans. I am not the only one.  :-)

To be completely honest with myself though, I do realize that in the process to get the fruits and vegetables from the farm to my home that the plants are most likely hurt. So some pain comes into play reguardless of what we eat. But this year I have started growing a few vegetables so that I can control how I get atleast some of my food and ensure that they are treated "humanely".

As for karma and what you eat, it really does not matter what you are told. It does not mean much if you are not sure or just believe or think something. It only matters if you know. Don't take what I or Adrian or Nay or anyone else may say. Instead meditate on the subject and explore the answer for yourself. Then you will know what is right for you.
Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Nay

Actually, my father had to feed his family and one of his jobs was a slaughter house.  Of course this was years ago but I still remember being on top a horse and witnessing a cow being shot right between the eyes with a very large, loud gun. 

Then I got older and we had chickens and ducks.  I had made one of them my pet, against my father's advice.  It was fine getting the eggs in the morning, but when I was made to watch my pet rooster get its head snapped off, that was a different story.  I was even made to pluck him.. I was being taught a lesson.  I can tell you, that we were quit poor and I was hungry.. I ate my pet for dinner that night.  I don't think he would have minded.  I'd like to think that he would have given up his life, so I could eat.