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Author Topic: Emotional control being immoral!?!!  (Read 6511 times)
Jenia_San
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Zeldagamer@hotmail.com Jenia_the_great
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« on: June 20, 2005, 20:30:52 »

Me and my best friend Shimon were having a debate about control of emotions...

I said that controlling emotions can only do good...
If done properly,it can grant happiness while performing hated tasks,
Make weariness disappear and even give you andrenalin when you need to hurry up as a small "push"...

Bus Shimon says it's immoral,it's like drugs and it's a "detour"...
He says it makes the person weaker instead.
 I, of course, disagree..

We kept debating and I kept trying to make him realise the truth,but he won't!

Can you guys please hep us in our debate?
Explain which one is wrong and give a good explenation...
Neither of us will take it if it's not good  Tongue

For refference,here is a copy of our convo(with the part about video games cut out)
Code:
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
nice. i wonna tell you something too.
ヅャニャ(Eat borsch!) says:
Go ahead
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i'm, going to ask my lover to be my girlfriend.
ヅャニャ(Eat borsch!) says:
...
ヅャニャ(Eat borsch!) says:
If it's a joke,it's not funny.
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i know, because my lover is the depression.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
the depression?
the DEPRESSION!?!!
God, and you even refuse to let me teach you to control your emotions!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
hmmm.... i wonna see YOU don't get depressed after two hours of babysiting an annoying baby!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
You can.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I can.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Yes,I have the power to control what I feel(to a certain extent...not 100% yet,need more training...) in case you did not know...

ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I thought you knew!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
hmmmm.. i'm not a zennist priest, first.
seconly, yesterday i staied with him the whole moarning when he was ill and super-annoying.
third, making the feelings being gone don't solve the problem.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Nope,it won't solve the problem,but it'll make the problem smaller if you can make yourself feel joy as you do it (as amazing as it seems,it is possible) and I'm not a zen priest either,and look! I can do it!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
tell me, what's the diffrence, on the spirtual aspect, between this and drug-taking?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Drug taking has side-affects
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
This doesn't...
It does not harm you in any way,but does the opposite
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
It enchances the power of the mind  
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i asked about the spirtual aspect, not the physical-psychologial aspect.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
It IS the spiritual aspect
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Drugs break the natural barriers of the soul and punch you into things...
And this is removing them(yet keeping them there) and moving things gently to the exact order you want them to be...
it's as different as a push and a pull!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
not enough to my standarts.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
argh...
So for you a push and a pull are the same?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
You KNOW I am bad at explaining things!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Ask in astralpulse!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i'm not talking about your methaphore. i got your idea, but it didn't convinced me.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
When I say I'm bad at explaining things...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I'm not talking about my metaphor either
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I told you...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Ask in astralpulse
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
They will explain it better than me.
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i don't need that. you should lnow that we should not agree about any thing.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Yes,but that is not a matter of agreeing or not...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
You are calling 2 opposites the same!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
That's just insane (excuse the outburtst)
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i'm not calling them "same". they are very different, but has the same aim, andd the aim isn't morally for me.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
same aim?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
that's just wrong
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
the aim of drugs is to "feel gooood..." and "be in" and the aim of this is to "become stronger"
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
(mentally)
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i think it is hust make you weakr.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Re-write that
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I can't understand that sentence
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
o.o right. me either.
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i think that doing that do not make you stronger, but weaker.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
How?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
How does it make you weaker...
explain please
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I just see no existing way it can make you weaker
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
because instead of making "the direct way" you are using a short detour and trying to the "easy way".
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Wrong
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
I'm using the hard RIGHT way instead of walking the uncertain way...
Instead of walking on a bridge with cracks,why not walk on a solid bridge of steel?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
drugs are not even a bridge...
Drugs are swimming through the water.
if you enter you might drown
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
that's the point- what is what? i'll explaaim: from my point of view the methaphore should be this way: "bridge with cracks"=detour, "solid bridge of steel"= right way.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
YOU are walking on the bridge with cracks
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
your emotions might make you fall at any point they reach a certain level...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
While in my case they can't be a problem,only an asset
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
i do not agree with that poing of view. sorry.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
"poing"?
Sounds funny  
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Anyway,
You didn't show me a single hole in that way...
You yourself proved my point...
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
*point
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Give me at least ONE hole in it...
ONE thing wrong with it...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
And I'll accept your opinion as a fact
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
that's a detour.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
How is that a detour?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
you are walking "around" your feelings insteed of standinfg face to face with them.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Wrong
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
That's hiding.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
What I do,is face that feeling...
And just tell it to get lost as I don't need it...
It's like spam e-mail...
You don't need it...
So if what I'm doing is a detour,deleteing your spam e-mail is a detour!
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
a nice methaphore, but spam is from outside, and this is from inside. if your dad sand you and e-mail and saying you should turn off your comp and do not turn it on for a month- is that a span or a bad mail?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Wrong
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
This is from outside too
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Think...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
If there was no outside,would you feel anything?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
there is outside. saying it is not there do not make it disapear.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
And...actually,my dad never e-mails me   if I see e-mail from him I'll think it's spam
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Yes,it's there.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Outside is there...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
But why let it ruin you?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
it's not a ruing, it's a part of the symbiose.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Oh,so having spam infect your computer with viruses is a part of the symbiose...
(whatever that is)
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
viruses are not a part of the symbiose.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Well so bad emotions are not part of the symbiose either!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Do you know that bad emotions ruin your health?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Here comes another issue-health!
It's HEALTHY not to feel bad things  
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
don'y you know that being alive ruins ypour health?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Oh,so go kill yourself.
Is that what you are saying?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
you said.
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
you bet.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
...do you realise what you just said? ROFLMAO!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
You just said that it's exactly what you said...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
So,ugh,I'll let you correct yourself
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
huh?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Oh,so go kill yourself.
Is that what you are saying?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
you said.
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
you bet.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
The "you bet" means that you agree AKA yes that is what you are saying
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
not exactly.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
lol,yes,I knew you would never say that,you are the "faithist" type...
So,go ahead and correct yourself
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
do you knoe the original meanig of thatt idiom?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
the original?
אתה תהמר
?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
המקור הוא בברית החדשה. זה עיוות של "you said". כשהכהן הגדול שטל את ישו "אתה נביא?" ישו אמר "אתה אמרת".
-"אתה המשיח?"
- "אתה אמרת."
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
and than it was translaten into enlish...
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
it has an heb orgin!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Anyway,I didn't say,I ASKED
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
 
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
And I'm gonna search the astrapulse for explenations for you...
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Anyway,
Like I said,all I'm doing is purifying the body instead of walking around dirty
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
And you only said things that made no sense =\
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
and please, don't look for me.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
"don't look for you"?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
At night?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
What,are you lost?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
don't loof for info for me, right. and Jenia, a friendly advice- you should know to accapt other points of view.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Before I go,I requet premission to post this convo in astralpulse!
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
(Shimon,I know how to-but you are being ridiculus! you are HURTING YOURSELF!!! How can I stand by and let you do that!?!!)
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
with my bad english?
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Yes,just give me premission...please?
The Megaman Grandmaster says:
yep.
ヅャニャ(Ack! the world is crumbling under my feet) says:
Thank you.
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My single,enternal wish...is to be truely free.
Tom
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 21:01:48 »

Controlling the emotions is a useful first step. Here is a more long-term solution:

http://www.sedona.com/
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 21:01:48 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Jenia_San
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 21:06:03 »

According to this site,it teaches to do all I can allready do...
This didn't solve our debate at all,and the stuff at this site also costs money(that means we can forget it).
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James S
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2005, 00:20:11 »

I don't agree with the concept of controlling emotions. They're there for a reason, and to seek control over them can end up causing damage down the track.

Firstly, ignore any thoughts of what may or may not be moral. Morals don't really have much importance here. What is important is what may or may not be of benefit to you. You need to think more in terms of what is doing you good, both in the short and long term, and what might do harm, especially in the long term.

Getting back to the point of emotions being there for a reason...

The goal should not be to CONTROL your emotions, but to BALANCE your emotions.

Consider that all our emotions are important to us, even things like anger and upset. We have emotions to tell us what's going on inside. If you try to control your emotions, you put them out of balance, because the only way to control them is to either ignore or supress them.
Instead of doing this, VALIDATE them. If you get angry or upset over something, tell yourself that its ok to do so. Give them validity, then find out why you're feeling what you're feeling.

Emotions are indicators, they're the language of the body. If you're feeling any negative emotions fnd out what your body is trying to tell you. At that point, become detached - step away from the emotion, and once you learn what it is that emotion is trying to tell you, accept that message, then let the emotion pass.  

This is the important bit - DON'T HANG ON TO THEM!
Except of course the positive uplifting ones. Smiley

In order to learn to love ourselves we need to be able to love every aspect of ourselves, even the bits we don't like.

Blessings,
James.
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Jenia_San
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 00:44:48 »

heres a problem-
When it comes to Shimon,we CAN'T throw morals away.
He is religious and morals come first and foremost.
2nd, ignoring and surpressing them is not how I control them them Tongue
I control them the exact way you described balancing them...
for anything I don't like to feel,I just pull out it's opposite until they cancel each other out.
And I never hang on them...
Anyway,this explenation did not convince Shimon into anything  Sad
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 00:44:48 »



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Tom
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2005, 01:01:57 »

People are free to choose how to feel. It is like choosing what to think or what posture to arrange your body in. The fact that so many people let their environment control how they feel does not make it immoral to choose.
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James S
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 02:32:29 »

Unfortunately Jenia_San, this is often how people steeped in religion will react.

Tom's right, we are completely free to choose how we feel. The thing to consider is how those feelings serve us. Do we use them to build ourselves up and grow, or do we use them to bring ourselves down.

Again, I don't think the "is it moralistic or not" viewpoint really helps us here. We are human. We have the full range of emotions. Thatís how we were made - by God if you wish to believe so. To deny certain emotions is to deny part of our humanity, and to deny part of our perfection.

Oops, there's something that will get some of the religious die-hards up in arms.

But it is true - we ARE perfection. If you want to look at it this way, God doesn't make mistakes - we were designed exactly right.

This doesn't mean giving in to our emotions, it just means accepting them and learning from them. Weíve all encountered or heard of strictly religious people who have suppressed certain emotions and feelings to the point where they canít handle them any more.

As to what you said about balancing your emotions Jenia, I see this as exactly the right thing to do -  if your feeling hate or fear, focus on love until the others are cancelled out.

Blessings,
James.
what they mean.
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 19:00:56 »

Heh and lets not get started on "morals".

Every society has different morals.

For example here where I grew up you couldn't find legal software in the hole country if it had to be paid for. (well 99 % was illegal anyways).

You think that anyone here considered that immoral ?
We just laughed our asses off for the people whom actually bought the software.

In some developed state where one original Windows doesn't cost two months of work, the story is different of course.

Morals are not universal, they are learned.


And James I agree with you with what you said.
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Jenia_San
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 19:25:55 »

True,but Shimon sticks to his idea of "morals"...
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 22:00:54 »

Oh, Jenia my dear.
First, let us make it clear- my Judaism is NOT an "classical orthodox" one, my opinions about the religious issues are very different from the ones of the Halakha (known as Halaah of Halacha, however you tanslate that Hebrew word), so don't start with "he's a fanatic and fundamentalist and can't see our light" attitude, right?
Now, you are confusing between two different things- between living with human emotions and trying to face them with a will for a balanced emotional life as a part of a spiritual way of life, and between "deleting"/"disappearing" them.
According to my point of view, the right way is not to find a way to ignore/delete/disappear them with some "new-ageic" tools, but to balance them and living with them as a part of our individualism.

" 'shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?' For all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job, 2, 10.
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Jenia_San
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 02:02:29 »

Shimon.
I do not ignore any emotion...
That is what I'v been telling you for houres.
I AM balancing them...
THAT is controlling them!
You think I'm doing the exact opposite of what I'm doing...
And I didn't call you fnatic or fundamentalistic and I didn't say that you can't "see our light"(that sounds ridiculus)...
What I'm saying is that you are ignoring things under your nose!
You also misinterept a lot of what I say...
Did you actualy read the posts?
Cos' your post makes it seem like you didn't  huh
No,seriusly.
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 20:05:18 »

From a creationsist(judeo-christian) point of view ALL emotions are neccesary, because they were created by God and from a creationsist point of view God doesn't make mistakes.
My point of view is 99% evolutionist. From evolutionist point of view emotions were created because they were neccesary to survive. Is an animal would have no fear of unknown it's survival chances would be greatly reduced. If it woud be born without hate and racial intolerance it could not remove animals with too different genes from the group and survival of it's genes would be in danger. The same with all the other feelings, positive too. This is why I think that removing useless feelings is a good thing to doo. Most people find that a bad concept and etc. but my explanation for this is an evolutionary fear of the unknown. For  me meditation is like sitting behind a driving wheel of a car instead of letting someone else drive(God? Fate? Or maybe just random events?).
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 11:53:54 »

From my point of view, emotions can make for some beautifully unique experiences, but it's a matter of not letting them run you over and dominate you to the point that it clouds your rational judgment or hurts others.

I think we have them for a reason too. I don't buy that we don't need emotions anymore (that they've run their course evolution-wise) because rather than subside, they've just become much more complex along with our rationalizing side of our mind; along with our greater capacity to think logically, our emotions have likewise become much more complex and abstract in purpose, as it's apparent that we are much more emotionally complex than any other mammals.
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2005, 02:48:47 »

Emotion is power to move and to achieve and reason  creates the framework for the emotion.  


Emotion is energy that is outgoing and expansive and reason is energy that restricts to create.  
In speach the vowels carry the emotion and the consonant gives it structure and intelligence.  
Each has its purpose and also each is not developed in each individual at the same rate or proportion.  

Most often we mistakenly take it for granted that we are stuck with the idea that these two qualities are unchangable and come from our personal sense of ego, rather than understanding that these are part of our inner being and lead us to face the challenges that we need to take us to the next step in our personal spiritual goals.
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Leannain
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2005, 05:22:32 »

im not a big fan of emotions.i most of the time have them under control.
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Tom
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2005, 05:51:00 »

Emotions are the body's response to the thoughts running through your head. If you don't like them, it's your own fault.
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Leannain
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2005, 06:16:00 »

hmm but i also keep my toughts under  control =)
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Tom
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2005, 06:21:20 »

Most people think that their thoughts, emotions, and even bodily sensations are the responsibility of outside sources.
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Leannain
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2005, 19:29:59 »

you mean the enviroment?,people etc?
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Tom
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2005, 21:29:18 »

Yes, exactly. It is good that you don't let that happen. The one I hear most goes something like "That person made me angry."
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2005, 03:12:00 »

Yes, but we can choose to react in different ways, other wise there would be sense that the emotions were part of us.  

No one can MAKE you angry.  It is a response we choose based on the situation and our personal make up and how we use discrimination to determine what effects us.
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2005, 04:43:33 »

We can not control our emotions, it is impossible.

Although we can greatly increase their feeling or greatly reduce it. If were sad or mad, that feeling will come, but we can make it go away. But we can never have control over what we feel 24/7.

A book called Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman explains this topic thoroughly.
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