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Faith??

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WalkerInTheWoods

I think you might have just opened a BIG can of worms, so I hope you are prepared for what might happen. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

Faith has a few different sides to it. Let me start off nice. Faith = hope. When using faith as hope there is not much wrong with it, in fact it is pretty good. You have faith, or hope, that there is a god. You have faith, or hope, that everything will turn out ok. Everyone needs to have hope. Without hope, what do we have? What are we if we do not have hope that things will get better or that everything will be ok?

But there is a dangerous side of faith that is usually used a lot in religion. This kind of faith, though can still be seen as hope, is usually suppose to be unquestioning. Religions tell people to have faith that something is real. When people question this in seeking truth, they are told to just have faith. Faith = to accept without proof. Now this is something that I have a hard time with. I try to be a rational and open minded person. Now in all my rational thoughts I just cannot work out any logical reasons why one should accept something without proof, without exploring, and without experimenting to find the truth. I see faith, this kind of faith, as a hinderance to spiritual development. It stops people from seeking the truth. It stops them from seeking deeper spiritual growth. Those that do try to grow while maintaining their faith in something are not going to be able to develop as well because instead of looking for truth, they are looking for what they want to find and if they should see something that contradicts their faith, then they reject it as being wrong instead of exploring it as a possible truth.

Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

clandestino

Hi there !

hmmm...a very tricky subject. I'd just like to put forward a different viewpoint on the reply made above : fallnangel says "Faith = to accept without proof" is one way of defining faith that shouldn't be questioned.

This puts a rather negative spin on the whole concept of "Faith = to accept without proof".

Lets suppose that us humans have no possible way of comprehending God...just in the same way that your pet hamster wouldn't really have a clue if it sat in on a lecture in quantum physics.

If we accept that "god" is ....way out of our league , to put it one way ! ....then perhaps "Faith = to accept without proof" is the best way to go about things ?! maybe its not so bad.

I do however agree that the attitudes of some religious persons ("stop asking questions !! that's just the way it is !!! " ) are quite wrong... I was brought up as a catholic, and although I'm not a practising catholic anymore, I do recall that the priests would REALLY do their best to explain concepts to children and adults alike....and when they couldn't explain something, they generally admitted it !

I'll Name You The Flame That Cries

muzza

Faith to me is a hard thing to describe. It has so many aspects each different.  All the aspects you guys have already discussed, i.e. faith=hope and blind faith, are all valid interpretations but in relation to spiritual development faith can be a nasty beast but also a blessing.

Faith is used by your 'big' religions to keep people coming back week after week and in that case I think is used in a bad way. Promise them something and we have them for life.

The way I use faith in my life is different. I have faith in myself that I will find my path in life and develop spiritually so I guess it is a bit of a trust in myself.

That was a bit of a weird rant! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> To sum up...faith and spirituality for me means trusting in myself and having faith in my decisions!



-- Muzza

cainam_nazier

I believe that faith plays a big role.  

Fallnangle77,

   I ask you this.  You have OBE's right or have had one?  You believe that they exist?  Now.....prove it.

You believe in something that you can not prove, you have faith that they exist.

I do not mean to single you out but you made a good example.

Faith = believing in something you can not prove, is not a bad thing, provided you can feel that it is right.  But believing in some thing that you can not prove, have never seen, and more importantly have never felt is simply wrong.

Me personally, I don't believe in a God, Divine Light, or Creator, but I have Faith.  I have faith that MY journey, my path, my experiances are true and correct.  I can not prove that any of it exists at all, but I feel it is right and true.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
http://www.prepaidliving.com/vip/David127385

WalkerInTheWoods

Yes I have had OBE's. Yes you could say that I have faith that they are real, but I would not really put it like that. But I also do not have blind faith that they are real. I am open to evidence one way or another. Also I have my own proof that they are real in some manner. I have experienced OBE, so I know that the experience was real, if to no one else other than me. I would not expect someone else to just have faith that OBE are real. In fact I really prefer that people do not take my word for it and just have faith that OBE are real. I want to them to explore and find out for themselves. This kind of faith is really more like an idea that I believe could be true, but I will not set it in stone until prooven one way or another. And since I do have a shread of proof, I atleast have experience to go on.

clandestino:
"Lets suppose that us humans have no possible way of comprehending God...just in the same way that your pet hamster wouldn't really have a clue if it sat in on a lecture in quantum physics.

If we accept that "god" is ....way out of our league , to put it one way ! ....then perhaps "Faith = to accept without proof" is the best way to go about things ?! maybe its not so bad."

You have a good point. But I must ask, is it impossible for humans to ever understand a god? Maybe humans can understand God someday, but it is not something that one can do in a lifetime. Does this mean that humans should not try? I think that people should still put their ideas to the test, even if they can never fully understand or proove them. If you do not try how can you grow?
Do you think that the extremists that flew the planes into the WTC had faith that what they were doing was God's will? I am sure they did. See this is what can happen with faith. And maybe I should clarify this as blind, unquestioning faith. Maybe if they put their ideas to the test, worked through them, they might have found another path and seen that their faith was miss placed. Likewise, if you put blind faith in any religion or idea how can you be sure you are on the right path?

Faith is not a bad thing as long as it is not taken to extremes or followed blindly.



Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.

Usiimers

Maybe another aspect of faith is feeling the indescribable.  Maybe it's not about God, Allah, Brahman, Buddha, Divine Light, spirit being something we "have to believe".  Perhaps its a matter of not being able to trasnlate those feelings into words.  Faith might be the place inbetween words and profound spiritual experience.  One could never prove that this exists because our langauge and our physical experiences on a day to day basis give no means of expressing this, let along proving it.  
Maybe there are even different levels of faith.  There is the low level, which would be following what others tell you.  And the highest would be experiencing something that's beyond human description.
I kind of agree that even OBEs have to be taken on a kind of faith.
I'm still not sure exactly and I don't mind if people disagree and bring up other points.  This is still a confusing issue for me.


Tom

It is 5 September 2002 at about 12:51pm locally. I have not learned to do astral projection yet. The date and time are here because I expect to learn and I expect to continue to write new posts. Neither has actually happened, and on my way home tonight I could be run over by a bus instead of being taken home by a bus. What I call faith in these matters is my belief that tonight after leaving work I will get home safely and that at some point in the future I will learn astral projection. There hasn't been proof of either, but I expect to have proof at some point in the future. If I had chosen instead to believe that I cannot or will not learn astral projection, then it is likely that my posts here would have stopped long ago. It is also likely that I would not have chosen to come to work today.



Usiimers

"You serve Him by servicing the children of matter. When you do that, you are within reach of His infinite arms, you are surrounded by His love, which will bring you to perfect peace. "Faith, that is faith alone, sometimes fails when the winds of bitter experience blow. But the faith that is born of knowledge provides a foundation which is so strong that no wind of circumstance can disturb it.

"Blessed are those who believe and have not yet seen, but thrice blessed are they who know and, because they know, place their faith in that which is not yet revealed to them, because they know that the laws of the universe are operated by a power which is love and wisdom.

"You should all have perfect faith, because it is a faith born of knowledge. You have had the proof of the power of the spirit. Now you should have the faith that all things work wisely and well and that, if you put yourselves in tune with the laws of the Great Spirit, then you must reap the operation of those laws.

"You can all banish from your minds the thought that anything that is unenlightened - or, as you would say, evil - can ever touch you. You live and move under the protection of the Great Spirit and His laws.
___________________________________________________________

This is an interesting view of faith.  I fouind this on that spiritual truths forum.  I guess faith could be believing in your true self without getting caught up in the physical ups and downs of the world.  I don't know...


Tom

You said it better than I did, Usiimers. Faith is actually very scientific. It is unfortunate that many religions do not agree.



clandestino

fallnangel, yep I agree - people should strive to learn and grow....perhaps you are right, we will eventually be able to understand God !!

Tom, I like your definition of faith...its pretty clear in that particular context.

But .... this thread is getting wayyyyy too complicated and deep for me now !!! there's steam coming out of my ears as I think about it

I'll Name You The Flame That Cries

James S

On a much simpler level I equate faith to trust.
I have faith in my spirit guide, that she will guide me right. I trust her.

On a slightly deeper level - I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. I know that science will provide you with enough proof & evidence that it will, but it is still in the future, and therefore subject to the realm of possibility. Still I have faith that it will.

As for blind faith - to paraphrase a bit of RB's writing -  Faith is a precious thing as it gives us hope, but blind faith, unchecked will lead to dogmas and narrow-minded thinking. Don't be afraid to question those things that you have faith in. It is not being disrespectful, it is being careful.

James S

- You don't choose the belief, the belief chooses you!

jokiesmurf

Faith can easily be understood it is not some unknowable secret.
Faith is belief their is no doubt in faith
If you try to do something spiritual you have to believe that thing if you have doubts it probably won't work
So faith isn't complicated it is the things that people have faith in that are so complex

ltk

Usiimers

These days I have been confused on the place faith plays in spiritual development.  I know that many many religious people go on and on about how great faith is.  Is it believing in the indesribable that one can never really put into words and make others understand?  Or is it simply a nice way of saying following something that you simply feel is true?
Part of my feels as if SOME faith might be needed.  For example, it is difficult to show clear proof that there is a God.  That word itself might be limiting for some, but whatever one would call that "divine light".  For me, I do believe in God but if someone asked me for proof I wouldn't be sure how to satisfy them.  I guess the inner feeling is what really counts.  
This brings me back to the idea of faith.  Maybe that's the biggest faith one can have.
I have also heard many people say that faith is simply a blind belief in something one is not sure about.  
At this point in time I just am not sure what to think about faith.  I've been reading some Thomas Merton a little these days and he seems to talk about how faith is so important to leading a spiritual life.  I'm really not sure.  
Perhaps many of these great spiritual and mystic people see faith as an indesribable force that one simply "feels" and "knows".  This could be similar to what the Hindus desribe as the Brahman.  It cannot be put into words.
I'd like to know what others think about this.
It's a complicated issue and I know there will be a lot of different viewpoints on this.