how can we go from this planet,if have debts on ground?

[apop]

for instance: paying-of mortgage-that you have signed- or taxes you have not payed-
but if not.. then you must return?
"first solvae the problems on earth, and then you can go to heaven-"  
as above, so bellow.  

[Sorlac]

I would need more information about the 'going' to theorize about this.

[apop]

pragmatique!      

[Sorlac]

Well, I can still theorize about it slightly.  The issues we have financially or materially only exist because we made them (where 'we' = society).  If society were to disappear, so would the problems.  I'm confused whether you're referring to just one person leaving, a large number, or everyone.

[yothu]

for instance: paying-of mortgage-that you have signed- or taxes you have not payed-

I think apop was only joking.

I were to hit you today and die, would I have to return tomorrow to let me hit by you?

[MisterJingo]

apop might have a point. Why have some things got a karmic debt and not others? A mortgage is an agreement between you and another being, the method of that agreement (money) should surely be irrelvant, but the agreement itself is important. So if you go back on your word, surely the discomfort caused to those you are in agreement with should have karmic implications (if you believe in such things that is). ie If someone borrows thousands from you, then refuses to pay you back, that person is causing harm to you through their actions - and unless you are especially wealthy, not getting that cash back could cause severe emotional distress.
I remember someone stating that everything, evening moving fingers has a karmic action (pmlonline), so surely this kind of thing would too?

[yothu]

severe emotional distress.

Yeah, but you can cause in somebody "severe emotional distress" by merely using someone else's dish - his cup - for example.

Am I now "karmically" tied to the being that suffers this emotional distress?

Does karma not relate to the spiritual domain? How does "money" and everything that is connected to it fit into "karmic debts"?

[MisterJingo]

severe emotional distress.

Yeah, but you can cause in somebody "severe emotional distress" by merely using someone else's dish - his cup - for example.

Am I now "karmically" tied to the being that suffers this emotional distress?

Does karma not relate to the spiritual domain? How does "money" and everything that is connected to it fit into "karmic debts"?

If karma only relates to the spiritual domain, then why do people say murder incurs tremendous karmic debt? I mean, it's a physical act.
If I bully somone surely that incurs negative karmic debt as I am creating distress in them.
Money is just an exchange medium, such as words, or my fists are. If I go rob old people of their money, is that ok for my karma? If I borrow money from a friend without the intention to pay it back, what is the difference in karma? What if I intentionally do it to a bank or mortgage firm? The same energy is behind my intentions.
I don't know the asnwers. But a while back someone was arguing with me that karma is mindless, everything creates karmic debt of varying degrees. Do a search on these forums for the thread.

[MisterJingo]

Here's the thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20631

I started replying on page 3.

[jilola]

If karma only relates to the spiritual domain, then why do people say murder incurs tremendous karmic debt? I mean, it's a physical act.

Because it prevents the expression of the dead guys life? Prevents free Will?


2cents & L&L
Jouni

[MisterJingo]

If karma only relates to the spiritual domain, then why do people say murder incurs tremendous karmic debt? I mean, it's a physical act.

Because it prevents the expression of the dead guys life? Prevents free Will?


2cents & L&L
Jouni

Perhaps an extreme example . I'm asking these questions as it seems most peoples views of karma are incredibly inconsistent.

[jilola]

I'm asking these questions as it seems most peoples views of karma are incredibly inconsistent.

They are. Mine have gone from one to the other.
It has become apparent to me that karma is nothing but simple cause and effect, choice and consequence that has been taken from its initial expression as a metaphor to a force of its own.
Ie, kick the band geek but face the music has become almost anthropomorphised as Jonathan Karma, not unlike a Discworld character.

Simply put my understanding is: You do what you do, as you choose. Other will do the same and the sum of those is what appears as karma, as the consequence of choicce, reaction to an action.
Nothing to do with reincarnation of being forced by some mechanisn to do any single thing at all. You will do all things in time and indeed as we speak you have done them already. Or are doing.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[apop]

severe emotional distress.

Does karma not relate to the spiritual domain? How does "money" and everything that is connected to it fit into "karmic debts"?

money- not , all agreements- yes-  
watch what have you signed or promised- you must pay it-
all agreements are between your soul (-and...
fe in ancient Egypt(kem)- there was "the hall of the double truth"-  
well, you can research it on the net-
and of course i am not referring to Egypt, as relevant, only of "debts of a soul"
tying to the material sphere.  and then the soul is bound to material sphere, until it pays-  it is really, very simple-  

[MindFreak]

Karma is conditioning, cause and effect. You do something or experience something and that conditions you to act or react in a certain way in similar situations in the future. When you do something or experience something it conditions you and creates habit energy.

[apop]

Karma is conditioning, cause and effect. You do something or experience something and that conditions you to act or react in a certain way in similar situations in the future. When you do something or experience something it conditions you and creates habit energy.

yes, but this is not about this-  

[Wronski Feint]

wouldnt such debts only apply to the physical dimension?  Why would a higher plane of existance care about what you did here (unless youre a christian, in which god cares) but if you dont beleive in karma or what have you would the rules still apply to you?

[Tantalord]

wouldnt such debts only apply to the physical dimension?  Why would a higher plane of existance care about what you did here (unless youre a christian, in which god cares) but if you dont beleive in karma or what have you would the rules still apply to you?

I don't think that karma has to do with your beliefs.Its a universal law and it applies to all individuals.The only good thing is that if you think it exists you work on it.

Personally I am sure that such a law exists because I had,me and my family,some very unpleasant events and the only way to explain them is the bad karma of my family tree(my surname is Tantalus - Greek Mythology).

And in order to ascend to a higher plane,firstly you should be set free of any karmic unbalances you have on the physical world.

[Wronski Feint]

I dont mean to argue, but what you beleive to be true, may not be.  I beleive life is based on perspective where the 'truth' can never be sorted out fully. Therefore from your persepective karma exists because like you said, youve had personal experience with it, where as I, have looked for karma and have tested it many times and nothing came of it.   Im not saying that karma dosnt exist, im sure it does from your perspective, but from mine and probaly others it dosnt.  And its been my expierence that when dealing with metaphysical stuff, beleif is very powerful.  But is it so powerful that you can break/bend the rules?  (im just trying to get everyone thinking)

[MisterJingo]

I dont mean to argue, but what you beleive to be true, may not be.  I beleive life is based on perspective where the 'truth' can never be sorted out fully. Therefore from your persepective karma exists because like you said, youve had personal experience with it, where as I, have looked for karma and have tested it many times and nothing came of it.   Im not saying that karma dosnt exist, im sure it does from your perspective, but from mine and probaly others it dosnt.  And its been my expierence that when dealing with metaphysical stuff, beleif is very powerful.  But is it so powerful that you can break/bend the rules?  (im just trying to get everyone thinking)

I've had long arguements on this forum in the past as I have similar views to you, which is why I originally posted in this thread . Although my belief extends to questioning the validity of the energy body concept ie do we actually create it through belief. But thats OT .

[CFTraveler]

WF wrote:

And its been my expierence that when dealing with metaphysical stuff, beleif is very powerful. But is it so powerful that you can break/bend the rules? (im just trying to get everyone thinking)

I guess that is the crux of the matter.  For some Karma is "the rules"- for others it's a matter of perception.
In my belief system you create your own reality- so if you believe in Karma, then you are bound by it.  Just like hell in 'traditional' Christianity.  Just remember, in most systems where Karma is considered law,  the perception of enlightenment, or the application of Love (depending on what system you're talking about) is the way out of Karma.  In other words, there is a way out.

[apop]

I guess that is the crux of the matter.  For some Karma is "the rules"- for others it's a matter of perception.
In my belief system you create your own reality-

like somebody said: everybody has Kharma, so forget about it!
it is only the simplest law: "AS ABOVE, SO BELLOW."
if I sign the agreement for an apartment, I sign it, AND I ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES!
if I don't sign, or do not have any mortgage, I AM FREE of DEBTS and don't need to come back!
it is about me, and my promise, promise of a soul, and not some "kharmic law"! it is only question of a little honesty, really!  
IF I SIGN, THAT MEANS,(BUDDHIST), I ACKNOWLEDGE! that is the only kharma there is. none else.  

*i like more "kharma"- it is also egyptian word then with the same meaning-