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If it harms no one, then do it!

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Frank




How the face of this planet would change if the ego-manic minority would happen to start living in accordance with those two simple rules. Fat chance, but it was a comforting thought: thinking of the strong living simply, in order that the weak may simply live.

Yours,
Frank



Euphoric Sunrise

Unfortunately some people are unable to see the effects of an action before they perform it. Some actions, though meant for good causes, bring about negative causes. That can also depend on the view you're looking at it from.

You can't please everybody. I don't mean to sound really negative or anything, but realistically that philosophy sounds very limiting. There are some situations where someone getting hurt is unavoidable.

I'd also like to make the point that getting hurt is not as bad as it seems. On the surface it seems that negativity and the word "hurt" go hand in hand, but think about the most vital lessons you've learned throughout your life. Have any of them come to light through painless experiences (either from yourself or another)?
I think, in a lot of situations, life lessons are only learned when one has experienced enough seemingly negative energy to realise what's going on and change whatever it is he or she needs to change. Do you see where i'm coming from?

I think there is a need for pain in our lives, both emotionally and growth-wise.
"The soul is never silent, but wordless"
* Emperor - The Tongue of Fire

ImmuredSoul

nicely put, Euphoric Sunrise

Kenneth, what's the story?
If I am to become that which will kill me, then perhaps I should just commit suicide? - My Immured Soul

Kenneth

ImmuredSoud: The story is on www.storiesonline.net , and it is called "John Carter", written by a man called Lazlo Zalezac. It is a ficticious story, with an erotic twist, but highly readable and very entertaining.

Euphoric Sunrise: Yup - I see where you are coming from. I have much the same attitude, in that there is a purpose to every little detail in the life we live - and it is the harder parts of our life, that we grow from.

What I like about this one is, that it deals with concequences, and not actions - meaning WE as individuals actually have to try and think, before we do anything, or say anything.

It is also very, very simple to actually remember. Compare it to the ten commandments - I would say, that I can remember about 6-8 on a good day [;)] .... The 10 commandments deal with what you CAN'T do - this deals with, what you CAN do, and it also gives a person the chance to grow through the act of making errors at the same time [;)].

Frank: Yes - It would be nice, if every Ego-manic something would start trying to live according to this, but it would be even nicer, if I could live according to this - and through my example, perhaps one or two other people would choose for them selves, that they want to life like this, and it slowly spreads [;)].

Read the story if you like - it IS actually a very well written story [;)]

Cheers from Denmark,
/Kenneth

--- One thing at a time, be in NOW, and be gentle to yourself ---

--- Your biggest obstacle is most of the time also your most powerfull startingpoint ---

aryanknight666

Unfortunatley, nature says: Victory to the strong, death to the weak.
In various situations humans are always organised into groups, there is strength in numbers. There are fitter groups then others and fitter individuals then others. In the classroom, the weak are victimized because one person's weakness is imperative to the whole group's surival. People have the instinct the conquer which is why the weak are victimized.
The world is like this, with groups like races and nations. There are fitter races, and there are fitter nations. It is also human nature to kill, fight, and disagree with one another. There cannot be any international brotherhood/unity or world-wide community. If there was a one world government, there would still be land seperated by sea, so people on one landmass would differentiate themselves with those on another landmass and thus conflict would ensue, it would just be like watching nations becoming all over again.
World-wide equality and community cannot and will not work,
In about 1000 years there will be no races, at this rate, according to scientists, because everyone is just mix-breeding. Of course, when there is one race for the whole world then it will mean the death of humanity. There are very different places in the world to one another. There are races so people can survive in these different environments. A mixture of all the races ie all the characteristics which are adaptions to totally different environments would mean there are no humans suited to any environments. Either this will happen and humanity will die or it simply won't happen because people will forever change to suit the environment.
You can also not live by "if it harms none do it". That means I cannot eat any meat or living thing (all food except for starch, milk and cereal) it means I cannot defend myself or others, as well. If 1000 people are about to be killed by one guy with a detonator to explosives and I have a gun and am able to shoot him in the head to save those 1000 people, then by that way of thinking I'd be harming by shooting him and harming by not shooting him.
It's illogical, irrational and unrealistic as are all utopial ideas and concepts.

Kenneth

Unfortunatley, nature says: Victory to the strong, death to the weak

You are absolutely right!! - and YET, we don't go out and kill everybody we meet - we choose not to, (hopefully because we have learned, that Power leads to Powerlessnes), and YET there are relationsships filled with love, that we choose to accept, and YET I can choose to go out in my garden, and find peace at heart just by being.... and yet, and yet ....

People have the instinct the conquer which is why the weak are victimized

Again, you are absolutely right. It is also my instinct to take anything I want, to be TopDog. But I have learned, that I have a choise when it comes to my instincts. First through my parents reactions and actions, second through my friends and foes and their actions, and lastly through my own ability to play a situation through in my head, before I act - and then CHOOSE the action, that I think will be the best for all, including my self.

This doesn't mean I don't make mistakes - ofcourse I do, otherwise I wouldn't learn anything, I wouldn't expand my knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn't grow.

I choose to grow in the direction of possibilities, of the world being a nice place as well, in the direction that I have to learn trust, compasion, patience, and that it actually will yild a better result in the long run if I take chances and LIVE my life, instead of trying to turn the flame down, and only see the danger and dark side of situations. Ofcourse this doesn't mean, that I have to be stupid or blind - I don't unlock all my doors at my home, and put a sign at the road saying "Unlocked house - and we are NOT home" .... [:P]

I am very well aware of alle the dangerous things, of all the evil and misguided people out in the world, and of all the dangerous situations that I can be hurt in. Every moment of my life, in every situation, I have a choise of how I will react to that situation. And it is in those choises, that I try to choose for my self, that If it harms no one (including my self!) - then DO IT.

I have been the weak one - the one that got picked upon, and got hurt by others actions. Been there - got that T-shirt [B)]

I have been the strong one - the one that made other peoples life a dark place, the one that hurt others both physically and mentally, stole other peoples trust and innocense. [}:)]

Today I have learned a little bit more than what I knew back then. I have developed, I have gained hard earned knowledge, and through that a larger degree of understanding.

I know now, that there ARE other options than choosing side, than being either a victim or a conquerer. (And I still enjoy playing Command and Conquer *LOL*) [;)]

You can also not live by "if it harms none do it". ....

Well, I think I am doing rather OK in living by that "rule", thank you. [:P]

it means I cannot defend myself or others, as well. If 1000 people are about to be killed by one guy with a detonator to explosives and I have a gun and am able to shoot him in the head to save those 1000 people, then by that way of thinking I'd be harming by shooting him and harming by not shooting him.

....And the only exeption to this rule being "Protect the weak from the strong". Does that answer your question?

The keypoint here is that WE as individuals are so continously aware of our actions, and what we say, as we can be. Go for Excelence in everything that we say and do [:)]

It's illogical, irrational and unrealistic as are all utopial ideas and concepts.

...And how I would absolutely hate to live my life in a computer program [xx(]

...Love and trust is also illogical, irrationel and unrealistic - and YET, that is basically what we are all searching for and trying to - to be Loved, recogniced for who we really are, and given the possibility to explore ourselfes, and develop our selfes...

If you as an individual are playing the "Devils advocate", then that is quite fine by me - you actually help me/us challenge and refine the thoughts behind this by your questions and comments. You help me grow by forcing me to rethink my ideas, to feel my feelings about this through again... And for that I thank you!

If you truly believe what you wrote, I feel sad for you, and I hope, that you too will find softness in that hard place it seems that you have chosen.

Cheers from Denmark
/Kenneth

--- One thing at a time, be in NOW, and be gentle to yourself ---

--- Your biggest obstacle is most of the time also your most powerfull startingpoint ---

kiauma

Goodness Aryanknight666, you do have a lot to say.  I hope you can do a better job of defending all those assertions, because as I read through them your conclusions made absolutely no sense to me.  

Here is why;

Victory to the strong, death to the weak.

Well, yes and no.  This is one way of looking at 'natural law', but the fact is, taken to the extreme of the one-sided view you present, it leads to extinction to the strong and the weak, every time.

In nature, tigers eat gazelles.  If the tigers actually ate all the gazelles, guess what?  The tigers die, because they have eaten all their food.  When the strong does not eat, they become weak, and die.

Therefore, I suggest that it is not a case of the strong or the weak, but a balance within a system that propogates longevity.

In the classroom, the weak are victimized because one person's weakness is imperative to the whole group's surival.

Could you clarify this please?

People have the instinct the conquer which is why the weak are victimized.

No, people who victimize others suffer from primitive consciousness.  There is no 'instinct' to conquer - to protect one's own, I might agree, and some people may be more predisposed to violence or theft, but I do not see that the two naturally go together.

Going back to the classroom, bullying for it's own sake is a sign of weakness.   It is a sure sign that the bully feels he is unworthy of respect, thus must constantly 'prove' his strength to his peers.   Without spreading fear, he feels powerless, and that is true weakness.

It is also human nature to kill, fight, and disagree with one another.

No, it is a human weakness, brought about by combining primitive consciousness with modern capabilities.

If there was a one world government, there would still be land seperated by sea, so people on one landmass would differentiate themselves with those on another landmass and thus conflict would ensue, it would just be like watching nations becoming all over again.

If you really want to address this question, instead of make up answers, you should look to history.   The Roman empire was considered nearly the entire known world at it's height, and it did break up, but the reasons were entirely for monetary gain, not racial, and certainly not simply for the sake of violence.

World-wide equality and community cannot and will not work,

I am looking at your logic on this, and must flatly disagree.   Your logic makes no sense because your base assumptions about humanity are false, therefore I suggest the jury is still out on this question.

Of course, when there is one race for the whole world then it will mean the death of humanity. There are very different places in the world to one another. There are races so people can survive in these different environments. A mixture of all the races ie all the characteristics which are adaptions to totally different environments would mean there are no humans suited to any environments. Either this will happen and humanity will die or it simply won't happen because people will forever change to suit the environment.

Ridiculous.  Why are humans so successful?  Yes, it is because we have adapted, but not specifically.   We are adaptable as we are.  We are so successful precisely because we have not specialised.  

Our mental adaptation, our brain, transcends the physical - because we can figure out how to make fire, and clothes, and houses, and spaceships - and the internet, which by having forums with written postings allows us to even transcend space and time to some extent, so we can have this conversation!

Also, the spiritual transcends the mental - but that is for another subject.

Could you transplant a Fiji islander to the arctic and have him survive?  Could you transplant an Eskimo to the tropics and have them survive?  Yes!  Otherwise, why the multi-billion dollar annual business in world travel??  AK666, of all your assertions, that is the wackiest.   We even have people living in space - explain that adaptation!  [:P]

You can also not live by "if it harms none do it". That means I cannot eat any meat or living thing (all food except for starch, milk and cereal)

Let's be reasonable.  Of course you cannot 'harm none', but at the same time, one should take care to do as little harm as possible.

Life lives on, and against, life.  That is a fact.

What happens when we die?  Our body putrifies and rots.  Why?  Because bacteria and insects consume it.   Everyday, all day, our live body is defending against this.  Our immune system is constantly killing and defending against he organisms that would otherwise consume us.   Why do we not always have a cold or a million other diseases?  Because our antibodies are always killing the disease causing organisms.   When we eat, there is always stray bacteria or other nasties on the food - why do we not die?  Because our digestions system is attuned to let some bacteria live for digestion, and to kill the rest.

Our immune system is a testament to the fact cited above.

Also, what would happen to humanity if cockroaches, ants, rats, or other vermin were allowed to getout of control?   We kill them by the millions every year, and good thing too.  Anybody do any gardening?   Weeds, old plants, or even the occasional gopher become subject to the 'greater good'.

Also, it has been scientifically proven that even though plants cannot scream or run away, they do have a nervous system, and they are sensitive to what happens around them and what happens to them.

Killing, pain, and death are facts of LIFE which cannot be escaped.

That said, however, there is a LOT that can be done to minimize killing and pain simply by being AWARE that you have a hand in how much killing and pain there is in the world, and acting accordingly.   You cannot eliminate it, but you can reduce it.

it means I cannot defend myself or others, as well. If 1000 people are about to be killed by one guy with a detonator to explosives and I have a gun and am able to shoot him in the head to save those 1000 people, then by that way of thinking I'd be harming by shooting him and harming by not shooting him.

You're right, that is silly - however, remember that through awareness you can make responsible choices.

Shoot him in the head, even if you face consequences.  Least harm is better than acquiescing to mass murder.  Be responsible.  Think for yourself.

I agree one cannot do 'no harm', but certainly one can greatly reduce harm, and should.  In the interest of brevity, though, "If it harms no one, then do it!" is a great reminder and affirmation of my responsibilities in the world.
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur.

Naiad780

AryanKnight, yes, your statements are reasonable from a biological evolution perspective.  However, in terms of spiritual evolution, aiding the weak is desirable so long as that person has something to contribute to the continued spiritual evolution of the species.  So it all depends on which perspective you'd like to take.

I do agree that it's impossible to never harm anyone.  What the original poster was referring to is like the Wiccan Rede, which always annoyed me.  Personally, I feel everyone should carefully evaluate the circumstances and consequences of their actions and then decide for themselves if harming someone fits into their moral code.  If there is a good reason to harm someone (for instance, you described eating or protecting yourself), then I do it and do not feel guilty.  

I think the "harm none" is so popular because not everyone takes the time to seriously evaluate their actions and the consequences.  Some metaphysical teacher somewhere probably realized that most people weren't listening to him/her about carefully considering consequences, and it was just easier to keep repeating the blanket statement of "harm none!"

aryanknight666

quote:
In nature, tigers eat gazelles. If the tigers actually ate all the gazelles, guess what? The tigers die, because they have eaten all their food. When the strong does not eat, they become weak, and die.



If the tigers could eat all the gazelles, they would. But they can't, because there are gazelles being born all of the time and tigers can't just keep on eating and eating because their stomachs are not infinite.


quote:
In the classroom, the weak are victimized because one person's weakness is imperative to the whole group's surival.

Could you clarify this please?



In primitive times, people were in groups which moved around and survived together (primitive tribes) and if one person was perhaps lame in the leg, or retarded, or very sick, then they impair the whole group's survival. Thus, they would probably leave the person behind, push him off the cliff or beat him over the head with a rock, because he is impairing their survival. We aren't in primitive times anymore but we still have our insticts. Because of civilisation, we don't beat weaklings over the head with rocks anymore, and the weakling no longer poses that threat.

quote:
No, it is a human weakness, brought about by combining primitive consciousness with modern capabilities.



It's instict -- it's human nature, thats why it still happens. Thats why there are nations which fight each other, thats why we disagree with each other on forums, thats why different religions visciously oppose each other, and even sects of the same religions visciously oppose each other. The more you take away civilisation the more the our primal insticts show through.

quote:
If you really want to address this question, instead of make up answers, you should look to history. The Roman empire was considered nearly the entire known world at it's height, and it did break up, but the reasons were entirely for monetary gain, not racial, and certainly not simply for the sake of violence.



You just told me I should look to history and that the roman empire consumed nearly the entire world at its height, then it broke up. Thank you. . That's what people want. I never said people seperate just for the sake of violence, violence ensues!

quote:
No, people who victimize others suffer from primitive consciousness. There is no 'instinct' to conquer - to protect one's own, I might agree, and some people may be more predisposed to violence or theft, but I do not see that the two naturally go together.

Going back to the classroom, bullying for it's own sake is a sign of weakness. It is a sure sign that the bully feels he is unworthy of respect, thus must constantly 'prove' his strength to his peers. Without spreading fear, he feels powerless, and that is true weakness.


All people are like this, just on different levels. Mot bullies are dull, with an absence of intellect, which is why they operate in such simple and primitive ways.

quote:
Could you transplant a Fiji islander to the arctic and have him survive? Could you transplant an Eskimo to the tropics and have them survive? Yes! Otherwise, why the multi-billion dollar annual business in world travel?? AK666, of all your assertions, that is the wackiest. We even have people living in space - explain that adaptation!


Do you really think a fiji islander's characteristics are going to do him any good in the arctic?
And an eskimo's in the tropics? If a whole race of people moves from the snow to the tropics, what happens? After a few hundred years or probably longer, they would change, they wouldn't look like they did when they lived in the tropics.
I think that there in most people there is a primitive subconsciousness, and they have a civilized consciousness, but the people who are dull, have a weaker civilized consciousness and seem to have a more prominent primitive consciousness, is this what you are talking about when you speak of primitive consciousness?
So, I can see what you are saying when you speak about primitive consciousness in a modern world. But our subconscious is instinctive, we display alot of body language and others pick up on this subconsciously. For example, in an argument we may fold our arms. This is usually just a verbal confrontation, but in primitive times this was, literally, a combatative stance. In the modern world there are many primitive situations watered down.

quote:
World-wide equality and community cannot and will not work,
I am looking at your logic on this, and must flatly disagree. Your logic makes no sense because your base assumptions about humanity are false, therefore I suggest the jury is still out on this question.



Hmm, so you think that humans all over the world can all live as one big happy family with no wars, no major disagreements and no conflict, and you are telling me that my perceptions on humanity and human nature are false?

quote:
...And how I would absolutely hate to live my life in a computer program


I really do hope you are joking [:(]


quote:
If you truly believe what you wrote, I feel sad for you, and I hope, that you too will find softness in that hard place it seems that you have chosen.


The world is not a pink and blue padded nursery where lions lie down with lambs, and if you really can maintain that perception of the world through out your whole life you must have lived a very sheltered one indeed.



goingslow

lay off the crack aryan.

stop taking yourself so seriously.. youre not that important, and believe it or not you dont have everything figured out.

kiauma

All people are like this, just on different levels.

AK, it is apparent, as the last poster pointed out, that your ideas are so entrenched that if you ever do reconsider them, it will only be after decades of painful experience.

To me, what the above quote shows is the old half empty/full glass of water metaphore.   I'm sure you have heard of it, but if not, I'll quickly explain.   For a glass that is filled exactly half way, some people will call it half full, and some will call it half empty.  It is a subtle point, but it can be very revealling of a person's basic perspective, under the assumption that if they call it half empty then they see the world in terms of scarcity, whereas if they call it half full then they see the world in terms of plenty.   In your case, you appear to see all situations and interactions of people entirely in varying levels of instinct and tendency to violence.  

Your view has no room for the basic good in people or higher virtue, or the fundamental Joy of Being which is where all higher consciousness comes from.   Deep meditation would change that, but I do not know if even then you would allow it, or make the connection.

Interestingly, you come to a topic like this to speak up.   Could it be because you fear that Kenneth may be on to something, and you don't want to see it happen?   Think about it AK, if it would really be so bad.
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur.

BlackTalon

Interesting topic...

all I can add is that I was once one of those bullies as a teenager. I didn't go out of my way to beat people but I made sure to make sure people knew I wasnt scared of anything. This was because like someone else said was weakness. This was my cover to protect myself so I would exploit other peoples weaknesses to save myself from hurt. When i think back i'm ashamed of things I did but I suppose that was part of my learning process as I was learning how to deal with  my own weaknesses and at the time this was the only thing I knew that worked to take my mind of my own insecurities.

I wouldnt go as far to say it was instinct it was just the only way I knew how as I didn't know I could look at life differently than what I was experiencing at the time.

I'm not a bully now so how could that be instinct, if i'm feeling insecure about something now I don't react the way I used to..now i try to make people fit in or feel at ease when i'm around them. I think if it was instinct i'd always resort back to my old ways.

Rastus

And it harms no one...  

That's the key of course.  Knowing how your actions truly affect others.  I would consider that a symptom of enlightenment: Recognising how your actions affect others, and acting accordingly.

I'll give you a practical example:  You(a forum member) smoke marijuana, because it's just you, it doesn't affect anyone but you.  Of course have uncontrolled energy surges and other issues, not to mention being a NEG beacon in your neighborhood.  You are affecting others, possibly quite badly.

Another example imvolves mixing Sex and Metaphysics.  While it may only be you and a partner(or not), careless practicing can affect people and pets around you.  This is especially true of younger teens dealing with puberty, or people in vulnerable states.

Both examples are quite real, not 'what-ifs'.  One is first hand and one is second hand.

When someone talks about strong versus weak, they usually mean physically.  Why?  They should be greatful that most people that strong metaphysically don't believe the way they do.  An infinite universe to explore and they spout rhetoric on this forum...
There is a physical limitation upon how much light a human body can sustain. Interestingly, there is no limit on how much light a human vessel can generate. When fully enlightened you must instill your light in order to maintain its wisdom.

Kenneth

Hi everybody!

Just read a wonderfull story, where there were some very sound (IMHO) advice as to how we can choose to live our lifes.

"If it harms no one, then do it!", and the only exception to this one is: "Protect the weak from the strong".

Initially it sounds very free and sort of gives permission for everything - but think it through - and perhaps you will be surprised [:P]

Another great tip from this story was "seek excelence in everything you do and say". Not perfection as many would say, but excelence [;)]


Cheers from Denmark,
/Kenneth

--- One thing at a time, be in NOW, and be gentle to yourself ---

--- Your biggest obstacle is most of the time also your most powerfull startingpoint ---