Is it really karma, and can we over-step it?

[BlackRose666]

Disclaimer: This post is not intended to be offensive to anyone's religion or beliefs. I have meant for this just to discuss different perspectives/views on the matter.

Sometimes I do doubt karma exists.  I have been thinking OK, since people make their own choices, there is a way to do things without one's plans falling through. A series of events/choices is like a circle of dominoes falling, and the last one smacks the culprit down from behind. But let's say a person carefully thinks out his choices/action/possible outcomes/consequences and metaphorically speaking removes the last domino leaving the culprit standing unscathed?

Also, isn't a person's thoughts/mindsets that make or break him, like if he keeps believing something will happen, good or bad it will come true. But if he doesn't believe or think about it, it won't come true? Could karma just be a limiting factor set in people's minds, and it's really their energy unconsciously sent out that comes back to smack them from behind in the end? All insights are welcome.

[Telos]

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

That's what I think of karma.

[wisp]

BlackRose,
I think of the word karma as an action. Every action is a result of choice. I cannot vision the circle of dominos as you described it. All I can see is the continum of the circle. A circle can be big or small. I tend to think you are seeing a smaller circle which could be routine thought patterns. By changing something in this cycle will cause a change. Not necessarily better, just different. If unscathed is the result I suspect you are talking about an injury. If you want to remain standing, yes you would have to place a space or distance from the rest of the dominos.

Yes to that, from my point of view. Is the result less about good or bad, and more about randomness, thereby causing disappointment and maybe loss of confidence? I think there are flaws in plans. Natural law continues but individual plans fall through. All the individual needs are the thoughts and memory available at the present time to make the right choice. The right choice includes who may be effected at the time of the choice. A person may not be able to see down the line a bit, but one can see how a decision effects another at that moment in time. Whether this is a good or bad effect, who knows? It is at this juncture one must use good judgment. If a person has planned and set themself apart, the choices are easier. If a person has produced or maintained a (co)dependent connection with another or others, the choices are slower. One has to finish one project before another can begin, imo.

My simple life is such an example. I have a son who cannot or will not leave home. In spite of what the general opinion and suggestions are (Good ones, and tried them all), my attempts have failed. Instead of failure I've come to believe the answer is that I'm not suppose to do anything else right now. Through trial and error I've discovered what I can and cannot do within these confines. Anything attempted to build on my physical environment fails. I work with what does not fail,that being my thoughts, and contentment through it. It has paid off in the long run. I've learned many things I wouldn't have otherwise.
There has been a slow pattern developing between my homelife and worklife as well. I'm learning about the world in the most backward way! When this time is done, another opportunity will open up, but no sooner than it's suppose to. I'm on the edge of my seat just thinking about it!

Hope this makes sense.

So....to best answer your last statement:

Also, isn't a person's thoughts/mindsets that make or break him, like if he keeps believing something will happen, good or bad it will come true. But if he doesn't believe or think about it, it won't come true? Could karma just be a limiting factor set in people's minds, and it's really their energy unconsciously sent out that comes back to smack them from behind in the end? All insights are welcome.

I guess this depends on how much you know and have experienced. For me, I've learned what the stakes are. For me, it's a choice between physical comforts (have enough anyway) and throwing away a life. A person can only go so far. It's a sacrifice worth making when you know how it may go otherwise. A human life is far more important than the structure it lives in. It's a balancing act from where I see it. Better to forfeit the material for spirit potential. If this is karma, I'm making the right choice. If it's not karma, I'm still making the right choice.

[daidaluz]

BlaRose

I have a vision about that.    Karma is the natural law of the universe. In esoteric and spiritual schools there is a deep and interesting class that studies the Causes that generates certain Effects. They call this karma.

They say there is a Circle made by Rays of lights of different colors. At the starting point of the circle is the white and golden light which is the true spiritual understanding (law) , then the cycle goes by and this light turns into orange, red and black.

People takes into their own life this white and golden light (law concepts)  and make a living out of them creating a social structure, so this colors turn into practical things in every area of each person , turning into black, orange, red.

Once they have learned everything is possible out of this starting white and golden, the cycle goes by again and we step into a new level of white and golden.

You see, more Than a circle is a spiral shape, hard to see its beginning and its end.

to make this clear, there are 2 sides of the same coin; the higher spiritual concepts, and its application in "material" life, colored by devilish light if you want.

Studding karma is to observe which level of white and golden light is being managed, and which characterization (devilish colors) is taking place.

Of course the great deal is to contact higher levels of bright light and be able to turn it into matter.      .................I'm not sure if this is right but I think that satan or lucifer did that according to the Catholic bible.

[psych3]

Sometimes I do doubt karma exists.

The short answer is yes and no

From the perspective of form and spirit there is karma; it is simply the law of cause and effect.  There is even a scientific basis for this law that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  

However, Karma is illusionary in nature.  It is identification with energy, in the form of spirit or soul.  Soul/spirit are illusionary in nature too.  This does not mean there is no reincarnation; rather it means that reincarnation isn't what it appears to be.  It is the same with souls, it doesn't mean they don't exist, just that they are not what they appear to be at the level of ultimate reality.  

There is also scientific evidence for this in the quantum physics field where the law of cause and effect breaks down and the universe breaks down to probabilities, randomness and chaos.  

At a practical level it means that unless you are enlightened as in the real deal, not the flowery version that appeals to most people, you are bound by Karma.  If you awaken to your natural state of enlightenment then you see the illusionary nature of Karma and are no longer bound to it.  You are beyond form of any sort, be it physical form or energetic/spirit based forms.  

It is not as simple as thinking there is no Karma, it isn't an intellectual exercise at all, it's not even an intuitive, emotional or energetic one for that matter, for they are the very things that keep you bound to the law of Karma.  It is beyond all that and it is why so very few have managed to see the illusionary nature of life.    It is also why very few fail to see, that souls is merely swapping one illusion for another and brings you no closer to ultimate reality.  It's just Maya manifested in another form.  The very act of thinking, feeling, physical sensations and identifying with those things creates Karma, so you cannot think or feel or intuit your way out of this.  

To overstep karma, you must first awaken to the illusion and the price of that is everything.

[pod_3]

The balancing of "karma" annuls it.

[Logic]

If you could step around karma, karma wouldn't exist.

[Telos]

If you could step around karma, karma wouldn't exist.

Karma wouldn't exist as we know it.

[daidaluz]

If you could step around karma, karma wouldn't exist.

You mean which karma you chose.  Every action generates a "Karma or Dharma"  reaction.

[Tayesin]

But let's say a person carefully thinks out his choices/action/possible outcomes/consequences and metaphorically speaking removes the last domino leaving the culprit standing unscathed?

Then that would also be the mechanics of Cause and Effect, since such things were done to insure the culprit was unscathed.

Also, isn't a person's thoughts/mindsets that make or break him, like if he keeps believing something will happen, good or bad it will come true. But if he doesn't believe or think about it, it won't come true? Could karma just be a limiting factor set in people's minds, and it's really their energy unconsciously sent out that comes back to smack them from behind in the end? All insights are welcome.

Not everything works from the Believing must Create concept.  Most of us have beliefs about things that will never come to be manifest.

Believing in a thing does not automatically assume that it will come to reality.

Karma is only mechanics.  I do this and that happens...  from the basic every-day cause and effects that we can witness for ourselves...  all the way up to what is mis-perceived as bad Karma, etc..

Your energy, whether in thought, word or action..  set things in motion, and eventually it will manifest in some shape or form in the world.

It is inevitable.

But, it has nothing to do with good and bad, or any other form of judgment..  Karma is only a mechanical tool..  and when we understand it as it really is, we can then work with it in more effective ways to be of service to others.

My life has been filled with what I jokingly refer to as Instant Karma..  because with every Cause I have knowingly set in motion, the Effect is hard on my heels and it quickly manifests in the world.

Instant Karma.. just add me.

LOL

[Tyciol]

Do you guys ever wonder if perhaps there's no Karma and it's just a manifestation of having too much guilt limiting you from all the stuff you've been taught is bad to do?

[BoscosFriend]

Karma doesnt truly exist, only in our minds. There is cause and effect, which is the nature of reality. Everything in existance is dependant on previous causes for it to exist. Everything is subject to this law. Karma is just our deluded way of perceiving cause and effect. We percieve the events in our life as positive or negative.
when we percieve reality in this way we crave, we know what is positive and we crave for it, we know what is negative and we reject it, which is the same thing as craving but in reverse. We spend our life chasing after positive expirience and rejecting negative expirience. This wrong view is the cause of karma and all of our suffering.
Each moment we expirience we expirience as positive or negative or maybe even a little of both, and when we expirience it this way it gives rise to craving which rolls right into the next moment. the previous moment of expirience becomes the direct cause of the current moment and that moment the next. Creating an endless cycle of craving and suffering, which carries us through our life and into our next.
To me there really is no good or bad karma, it is true that good thoughts and actions will have similar results as will negative thoughts and actions. But the truth is that karma wether good or bad will cause suffering, karma is what binds us to this existance.
The goal is to eliminate karma, so that there is no more becoming. The only way to elimate karma is to eliminate craving. Without craving there can be no positive and negative expirience, no more chasing our tails,no more becoming. The cycle is stopped, there is no more rebirth. Its just like someone said earlier about the domino not hitting the next, when we eliminate craving the domino misses the next and the rest cease to fall.
I hope this makes some sort of sense, im not the greatest with words.

[Tyciol]

That's a good basic theory, like atheism, but you don't really know karma doesn't exist, since it can manifest in very subtle ways, so don't say it with such certainty, others may find it offensive or humourous.

[BoscosFriend]

it exist when we have wrong veiw, that is why we expirience life as negatives or positves. cause and effect exists, i think we can all agree on that, right? Karma is just our distorted perception of cause and effect. when we do, think or say something, that is a cause and that cause creates an effect, this is fact. when we feel the effetcs of the causes we classify it in our mind as positive or negative. with this wrong view, we constantly crave positive expirience and reject negative.
ok, every moment we expirience is the effect of a previous action, we feel the expirience as negative or positive, this wrong view causes us to crave, when we crave we try to fullfill this craving. so we act in order to fullfill our desires, but this very action becomes the cause of an effect that when expirienced is again percieved as negative or positive which causes craving again which leads us to more action in an attempt to fullfill our unqunchable desires, an endless cycle.
so we continue on through life going in circles. this is karma, it exist in the mind only, in reality it is only cause and effect. it is only nature, we should realise this and not be attatched to our expirience.  i say this with certainty because i am certain. this may make me sound as if i think i'm all high and mighty or something. but that isnt the case. i know what i know and it is so obvious to me. i wish i could communicate it better in words, but as i said im not very skillfull with words.  at least consider what i have wriiten, investigate evrything.

[Tyciol]

It's really hard for me to read that.

I will say it again: great theory, but how can you be absolutely certain of the absence of karma when the repercussions are not always directly oppositionally identical?

[BoscosFriend]

its simple, karma is felt as negative or positive experience. thats why people label it bad karma, or good karma. if craving is ended and one did not perceive reality in this positive/negative way, how could one create karma. it would not be possible. there would be no positive or negative experience, so there would be no karma.

[Tyciol]

The Karma theory (like any religious theory) presumes that it is ruled by something other than our perceptions. So your perception of good and evil wouldn't matter, if you thought killing people was good karma, and you killed someone, it would still be bad karma.

If you don't believe in karma, like you or I, then yes, you can live without those restrictions, but it doesn't help in trying to debate them, or disprove them. It is the most subtle argument I've ever seen, and nearly impossible to prove or dispute. You just believe it or you don't.

[BoscosFriend]

The Karma theory (like any religious theory) presumes that it is ruled by something other than our perceptions. So your perception of good and evil wouldn't matter, if you thought killing people was good karma, and you killed someone, it would still be bad karma
I agree completely.  it doesn't matter what we think good or bad is. when we act, weather its stealing or watching television, we do so in order to fulfill a desire. we act in an attempt to bring happiness and contentment to our lives. even if it is stealing, that person does so in the belief that the action will bring contentment. it isn't so outright obvious, most people i don't think even realize this is the motivation behind there actions.
This motivation is the very thing that creates karma. because this motivation(contentment/happiness) behind our actions gives the perception of what is desirable and undesirable. and our knowledge of what is desirable and undesirable fuels our motivation for the desirable.
so what happens is constant craving for pleasurable experience and constant action for pleasurable experience, which can never be fulfilled because the action just leads right back to craving. a cycle. bad karma will lead to bad experience and good karma will lead to good experience, but both keep us in ignorance and discontentment. that is karma

If you don't believe in karma, like you or I, then yes, you can live without those restrictions, but it doesn't help in trying to debate them, or disprove them. It is the most subtle argument I've ever seen, and nearly impossible to prove or dispute. You just believe it or you don't.

I do believe in karma in the same sense that i believe a dollar has value. it only has the power we give it, ultimately it is just a delusion. It is a very subtle debate, but it is worth discussing, and is something that should be contemplated deeply. I don't know about you, but i do not live without the restrictions of karma, i have yet to reach the level of total elation of karma, i believe that would be enlightenment. anyway, i guess we can call it quits if you want, I'm probably starting to talk in circles.

[daidaluz]

The Karma theory (like any religious theory) presumes that it is ruled by something other than our perceptions. So your perception of good and evil wouldn't matter, if you thought killing people was good karma, and you killed someone, it would still be bad karma.

If you don't believe in karma, like you or I, then yes, you can live without those restrictions, but it doesn't help in trying to debate them, or disprove them. It is the most subtle argument I've ever seen, and nearly impossible to prove or dispute. You just believe it or you don't.

  I see Karma as the "things" that happen to me every day.  If a go and spend today all my money and the money I do not have, then I'll be in trouble tomorrow.  But if I become the one who nurses an entire community then I'll be someone important for them.  

Probably there is a misinterpretation, it doesn't matter what I think what is good or bad; .........but there IS a concept of good and bad in the community (or environment)  in which I live, as a whole. So the effects in my own life are close linked to the causes I've activated in my environment.  

Karma is an OLD knowledge so it becomes of importance when people realize that karma Can be manipulated or managed in a way.

[Qaz_Azaran]

It's time that I pop my head in on this thread. I recently read Journey of Souls by Dr. Newton, which gives various accounts and case histories from his doing life between lives regression work. Now since these people have been under deep hypnosis and lying or making things up isn't really stuff that happens in that state of mind, and due to the incredible similarities of the accounts it seems highly probably that this book covers what happens when someone is dead, before reincarnation.

Now, the view of karma that comes up in this book is not one of do something wrong and you get punished. It is entirely about learning lessons. And one of the most effective ways to learn about pain and suffering is to experience them. So, someone who has done horrible things, needs to experience them to get the lesson properly ingrained. Although there may well be other ways to learn the lessons this is the most obvious.

Cause and effect is not karma. That's just logic and the way things happen. Personal negative repercussions come about because of either: A) a sustained belief that your actions (good or negative) will have appropriate consequences (This can easily be either in the form of "I have done wrong and deserve to be punished" or "Nice guys finish last" mentalities. B) Cause and effect (for example, you shoot someone and then get arrested and got to jail) or C) the spiritual property that like attracts like, so by being negative yourself you attract negativity, and by being positive you attract positive situations. Remember as NEW so effectively demonstrates, where your attention goes, there flows your energy.

Think positively and the world will change around you. It's true.

[BlackRose666]

Forgive my belated reply. I have been so busy lately.

Do you guys ever wonder if perhaps there's no Karma and it's just a manifestation of having too much guilt limiting you from all the stuff you've been taught is bad to do?

Thats what I have been thinking.


Thanks everyone for your replies. Many interesting points have been brought up. I don't know where to begin. I like BoscosFriend's first post in summing it up. From my spiritual point of view, eliminating/over-stepping karma is one of the steps to greatness.

[Tyciol]

Anyone who only does good for karma or heaven or to avoid a hell or life as a worm is pathetic in my eyes. Shouldn't we do good for good, or evil for evil, as it were? Not for consequence, but for what we inherently believe in.

[wisp]

Tyciol,
Nice thoughts. I guess I don't see karma as you do...aside from it being invisible.  

[BlackRose666]

That is absolutely true, Tycoil.

[beavis]

Everything should be motivated by consequence. It is simply the results of your actions.

I think what you're talking about is if one should trade good consequences for bads for others. The answer is irrelevant. Evolution will win. Evolution assigns value to protecting those like yourself sometimes and protecting only yourself other times.