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Rudolph

#25
QuoteI don't have a partner so I can't tell you about results from my experience, but I have friends that practice it and one can see that they have a special kind of glow.

Oh, the "glow"...  :|  ... hmmm, now I am starting to lose interest.

I don't know about you but if I gave up normal sex and vigorously pursued some disciplined, non-orgasmic tantric yoga for a period of time I would sure as heck want a little more than a 'glow' to show for the effort.
:wink:


edit: and to answer the question about the techniques used to move into the Causal and Atmic realms -- I explained in earlier posts about my years spent practicing Surat Shabda Yoga.

... and getting back to Monroe and your claim;
QuoteIn regards to Robert Monroe, I think it's in his first or second book where he first realized that urge for sex is a hindrance in his travels.

I don't remember him saying that.

He did mention the sex pile but only in reference to those trapped in a sexual addiction and obsession. When it came to regular, normal sexual activity he came right out and stated clearly that it was neither a hindrance nor an assist, in any notable way.

Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

Summerlander

What is so wrong with enjoying sex?  And why does a dog hump a pillow when the grump is not in the mood?  :-D

stan

#27
Quote
Oh, the "glow"...  :|  ... hmmm, now I am starting to lose interest.
I don't know about you but if I gave up normal sex and vigorously pursued some disciplined, non-orgasmic tantric yoga for a period of time I would sure as heck want a little more than a 'glow' to show for the effort.

"Glow" is what is perceived externally by others, and if you are more sensitive to energies you can feel much more then a glow. As I said I do not practice it so I can only tell you what others have said what they've gain from it: higher/solar bodies, psychic faculties etc.

Quote... and getting back to Monroe and your claim;
I don't remember him saying that.
He did mention the sex pile but only in reference to those trapped in a sexual addiction and obsession. When it came to regular, normal sexual activity he came right out and stated clearly that it was neither a hindrance nor an assist, in any notable way.

Can you quote what he said and context around it? And in which book did he said it?

Quoteand to answer the question about the techniques used to move into the Causal and Atmic realms -- I explained in earlier posts about my years spent practicing Surat Shabda Yoga.

Could not find them in your last posts...can you post the link?

QuoteWhat is so wrong with enjoying sex?

There is no right or wrong here, only goals and what you want out of your life.

gdo

Energy is just that. 

Now, there is from the moment of creation, a creative force manifesting, continuously, the Universe.

When we look at our world we see life being generated in plants and animals at a specific level. 

Our physical bodies share levels of this process to a point.  That level of generation is what most of us think of when we use the terms Sex. 

This generation is HOW the One flows and manifests the many. 

For mankind there is an added factor.  We, after all are not just animals.   That is we can focus, direct the power of attention to create new conditions for ourselves.  To do that we Direct that same creative energy
to build those new conditions.  If all you did was eat, sleep and f*ck, when would you have time to create languages and learn to manipulate Fire, build Societies. 
Long time ago, some members of mankind learned to direct a potion of that Creative Power to do just those things. 

Now there was a time when the population of man on the earth was relatively small, and there was emphasis to create larger families/tribes, etc, in order to subdue the natural world they lived in.  After we reach  a certain point we have energy leftover and use it. 

Now to excel in any endeavor takes forming a goal and making a plan to acheive that goal and also the discipline to to all that is required to make that goal a reality.

All of the above statement involves a certain sublimation of our inherent creative power.   At some levels, it is simple and just not acting like an animal to reach some success.

At other levels it takes more.  The more you control the creative power the more you can create, even things that most of us would and do find unbelievable.

It has nothing to do with Morals it has everything to do with deciding to really become Human, and rise to levels above the strictly animal nature.

Remember that most religions were started during times when most of the world population lived in a state of illiteracy.  There were relatively few people who were literate.  So it was not really so much about political power or control of the masses. 

Jarrod

QuoteSex: yes please
Religion: no thanks

Haha.  That reminds me of Austin Powers: "Sex: yes please"

The sexual part of people gets repressed into the subconscious as we're growing up when we're still little out of necessity.  It has to for any kind of society to function, just like toilet training is a necessity.  It isn't natural, but it has to be done for this unnatural way in which we live called society to work.  Everything that would inhibit our acceptance into society is repressed into the subconsciousness.  This is where the duality of the human condition comes from.  So these hidden aspects of our self are felt as separate intruding forces we must fight against to maintain our place in society.  We fear what's hidden inside us that could make us unacceptable if we let it out.  Religion is ultimately about being acceptable, whether it be acceptance from your fellow believers or from God.  It's about controlling oneself to be good enough for something.  Thus naturally the things which had to be buried to make you suitable for human society are going to become the enemy to any religion.

Summerlander

Jarrod...you said it all!  It's all there, people.  It is the most logical perspective thus far.  Shaggedelic, baby!  :evil:

Rudolph

#31
Quote from: stan on August 15, 2011, 05:48:52
"Glow" is what is perceived externally by others, and if you are more sensitive to energies you can feel much more then a glow. As I said I do not practice it so I can only tell you what others have said what they've gain from it: higher/solar bodies, psychic faculties etc.

Can you quote what he said and context around it? And in which book did he said it?

Certainly. Context is quoted below and the key phrases are bolded.

And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.

Far Journeys; Epilogue/End Game. (p260)

Divest Survival Sex Ties
Due to the need to protect and maintain until physical maturity the
offspring of the reproductive act, many cultures have attached certain
obligations thereto. While this is generally a purely physical requisite,
many have taken the position or inference that far more is involved. The
reproductive act is first and foremost a very powerful response to purely
sensual stimuli. The response is not in itself an emotion, although the
depth of the experience often causes fantasizing that it is exactly that and
of much greater import. To confuse the issue further, sexual union is one
of the significant ways to express the SL emotion found in the Prime
Energy.
The load reducer is to understand the difference. There is no right or
wrong engendered either way, only difference. Recognize that, from the
perspective of solely a physical act, any emotional attachments thereto
relate only to time-space reality. As a procreative act, it is physical in
nature. Unless other energy patterns emerge as a result, enjoy it but don't
get hooked on it. You don't need to take it with you, because there's better
in the original form—what you experience here sexually is a very weak
imitation of a part of a totality. No male or female "owes" the other an
obligation to copulate. Sexual attraction and attractiveness are elements of
a survival drive which is purely physical and no more.



Also p. 120;

they have her strong imprint . . . I can find her in the dark or in the light, it makes no difference . . . she taught me so much without knowing she did . . . the very female human response to moments large and little, uncovered, uncolored except by her own perspective . . . all of these she shared with me . . . so that I lead not one but three lives, hers, mine, and our meld . . . and she helped me learn release from one of the most difficult of all, that physical sexual drive is not the fundamental of this energy I don't know what else to call but love, but one of the most common inducements to kindle the process . . . once the full flame is created, the inducement is not even the fuel that feeds it, but instead a
multileveled minor physical note
in an infinite chord . . .



To Monroe sex is just "a multileveled minor physical note".


And when you ask about what "technique" is used to travel to the trans astral realms I can only say that there is no one technique that I can point to. Surat Shabd yoga is a way of life.
I do not recommend following Rajinder but some of the exercises here give the basic idea;
http://www.meditate.com/how-to-meditate/jyoti-and-shabd-meditation
Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

Summerlander

Brilliant, Rudolph!  You hit the nail on the head.  But you also spoilt it for me because I am currently reading Far Journeys and haven't got that far yet! LOL!  :lol:

By the way, how have you been, mate?  We haven't spoken in ages!  :-)

stan

#33
Thanks for the quotes Rudolph.  Few comments on keywords you bolded:

"that physical sexual drive is not the fundamental of this energy I don't know what else to call but love, but one of the most common inducements to kindle the process . . . once the full flame is created, the inducement is not even the fuel that feeds it, but instead a
multileveled minor physical note in an infinite chord . . . "


He speaks here how sexual drive is not fundemental of energy related to love, and sexual act (with LOVE) is one of the expression of it.

In Far Journey there are insightful details, either in discussions or in his own statements, where he said that "heavy load" has to be eliminated. He mentions for example pride being one of that heavy load. In discussion with ED, BB found out that all people that enter earth get addicted to it. Now, you may argue that lust is not part of that heavy load because of what he said here:

"Sexual attraction and attractiveness are elements of a survival drive which is purely physical and no more."


Many people confuse sexual attraction for lust. The later is not physcial, it is energy that manifests in human body from higher dimension, same as all other thoughts and emotions. And lust is the reason why people give into sex. Lust manifests in all main centers of the human body: in sexual organs, in emotional center, motor center, instictual center and intelectual center, prompting a person to give into sex or mastrubation. If one starts eliminating it, one would see that it is not a physical energy, and certainly not who you are.

True sexual attraction is biological, pure, yet it is distorted by lust. One wouldn't really see every pretty person of opposite sex in a desirebale way with pure biological attraction. It is lust that does that. Lust is the greatest addiction of souls to Earth. People when have sex they have lustful sex, with lust manifesting in the centers. And if you think you are not addicted to lust, try not to indulge into sex, mastrubation and having orgasms for a few days. Within those few days observe all the sexual wants and desires that will manifest as emotions, thoughts and sensations.

And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.

Usually people don't brag around with what they created. I met one for which I know for sure. For others I don't know for sure. You can verify what one has or does not have in the astral where true nature of person is displayed by default. There are likely many peopel walking on earth which are not even aware that they have those bodies, i.e. they've created it in past lifes.

stan

#34
Also, check out this part of the quote you posted:

"The reproductive act is first and foremost a very powerful response to purely
sensual stimuli. The response is not in itself an emotion, although the
depth of the experience often causes fantasizing that it is exactly that and
of much greater import
."


This is a good demonstration about difference between sexual attraction and lust. It is said that avarege man thinks about sex every 9 or so seconds. Don't knwo exact number but he thinks A LOT about it. Avarege woman thinks A LOT about it too. This shows that lust is the main factor that gets person indulging into sex/mastrubation. I quote you Monroe now because I see that you and many other people here put a lot of value in his words. His books are great, one of my favorites when it comes to inspiration. A lot of insights one can get from it. But bear in mind that his books do not deal with HOW to spiritually develop. The way he removed his egos (through tests when out of body) was very exceptional and it's not a regular way of development. After all he claims he had 2000 (or was it 3000?) human lifes, and that makes a huge part of him being exception.

Btw. thanks for posting that link. i will check out some of those meditation techniques. So you say that by living by that kind of way you reached those high planes (Atmic etc.)?

Jarrod

QuoteJarrod...you said it all!  It's all there, people.  It is the most logical perspective thus far.  Shaggedelic, baby! 

Thanks Summerlander.  I must admit I didn't read this whole thread though.  I just read the initial question and felt like sharing the perspective I gained from studying Tantra.  If you're interested in more explanations like that you should acquire a book called The Book of Secrets by Osho.

Summerlander

I'll look into it.  It sound interesting... 8-)

Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 16, 2011, 06:35:20
And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.

Usually people don't brag around with what they created. I met one for which I know for sure. For others I don't know for sure. You can verify what one has or does not have in the astral where true nature of person is displayed by default. There are likely many peopel walking on earth which are not even aware that they have those bodies, i.e. they've created it in past lifes.

Thanks Stan, understand though, we're not talking about 'bragging' here, but about establishing bona fides that lend some measure of credibility to unusual claims. The man who claims to have a better, non-carburetor type internal combustion engine will not only be asked to present, perhaps, his automotive engineering degree but his better, new and improved, fuel injected microprocessor controlled engine as well... and folks will want to see it make a few laps around the track as a sort of proof in the pudding. It is not about bragging. It is a practical consideration. Is this guy for real?... or is he just blowing hot air?

Now... I have been to the astral more than a few times and I am pretty sure that it is NOT "where true nature of person is displayed by default"...  :lol: :lol: :lol: ... not by a long shot.  :wink:  Not that I am any expert or anything, but from what I have seen, the VAST majority of humanity lacks even the most primitive faculties required to make that sort of distinction and/or exercise that level of discrimination upon entry into the Astral Realm. The most untalented, clumsy, club-fisted astral stage shows are way more than enough to make true believers out of the common garden variety, pseudo-aspirants here on planet Earth who happen to stumble into that realm the first few (dozen) times.

If you, "met one for which I know for sure", I would like to know... how did you make that determination?
(this is a really important question)

And then back to Monroe.
You mentioned 'wasting' energy on orgasms and such. I have heard of this sort of thing before. I mentioned the Taoist immortals in this respect. But you also mentioned Robert Monroe reaching the "Ultimate Destination"... yet, clearly -- he enjoyed a regular, loving and orgasmic relationship with his beloved wife throughout their time together... and still, he made Masterful progress and attained a high state of awareness and ability.

Whaddup wi' dat?!

I mean... he didn't mention anything about how unusual sexual practices were necessary for getting from point A to point B...? ... On the contrary, he came right out and said plainly and clearly that it was just a physical thing, nothing else.

:?






Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 16, 2011, 07:21:49
Btw. thanks for posting that link. i will check out some of those meditation techniques. So you say that by living by that kind of way you reached those high planes (Atmic etc.)?

No.

I didn't say that.

Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

stan

#39
To know if solar bodes are real, and to know if someone has them, you can either investigate about it in the astral, or if you have some faculties you could get vague understanding about it here as well. How I found out about it was due to some experiences I had combined. In the end it's really up to you to either reject it or to try and look into it when out of body.

Astral plane is by nature energetic plane, and intentions and spirit's energies are easier to felt since there is no physical shield which could prevent emanations of those energies. There is also a matter of closing ones own emanations but this requires effort and it's not a natural state in the astral. It's kind of strange that you reacted the way you did to this claim since you say that you have been in astral more than a few times.

QuoteBut you also mentioned Robert Monroe reaching the "Ultimate Destination"... yet, clearly -- he enjoyed a regular, loving and orgasmic relationship with his beloved wife throughout their time together... and still, he made Masterful progress and attained a high state of awareness and ability.

Did you concluded that he had orgasmic sex because of those two passeges you posted?

I didn't said that Monroe reached the "ultimate" destination. I said he was enabled to travel there because he merged with his I-There. Big difference.

QuoteI mean... he didn't mention anything about how unusual sexual practices were necessary for getting from point A to point B...? ... On the contrary, he came right out and said plainly and clearly that it was just a physical thing, nothing else.

As I said in my previous posts, he was exception when it comes to spiritual development because of the number of human lifes he had. His egos were eliminated in a special way through tests in the astral. And besides, we don't know what he did and what he didn't created in his previous lifes.

In regards to what you said about "physical thing", I have already explained in previous posts about the difference between sexual attraction and lust.

Can you elaborate what did you meant in regards to visiting high planes in relation to Yoga you practiced?

Rudolph

#40
Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 05:25:20
To know if solar bodes are real, and to know if someone has them, you can either investigate about it in the astral, or if you have some faculties you could get vague understanding about it here as well. How I found out about it was due to some experiences I had combined. In the end it's really up to you to either reject it or to try and look into it when out of body.

I did not ask if Solar Bodies are real (although that may be a good question to ask, but I have seen vague references to this type of thing in other venues, so I am ready to admit that there is 'something' going on behind the matter). I had two questions;
1. Have you met anyone with a Solar Body?
2. How could you tell?

You say you met one person. You made only a hand waving, smoke blowing reply about the astral in this regard. I would really like a clear, straightforward reply on this. People make claims about things like solar bodies and amazing abilities so often but whenever I press for details it becomes obvious that the claimant really has no idea what he is talking about. He is usually just regurgitating something that he read in a book.

The typical non-reply is "you can check this out yourself in the astral" -- which is a dead giveaway that the claim is just another fawning disciple's effort at advertising his favorite guru's cult. I have seen this over and over again. Those who really know what they are talking about can make very clear, lucid, objective replies to these questions.

[edit; and please don't get me wrong here. I don't have a problem with gurus and cults for the most part. In fact, I am always on the lookout for a good one that I might join. I like the new learning and camaraderie, etc.  :-) ... but I do find the continuous flow of unsubstantiated claims to be a little tiresome. And I have this pesky obsession with "results". All blow and no 'go' just doesn't cut it with me.]

QuoteAstral plane is by nature energetic plane, and intentions and spirit's energies are easier to felt since there is no physical shield which could prevent emanations of those energies. There is also a matter of closing ones own emanations but this requires effort and it's not a natural state in the astral. It's kind of strange that you reacted the way you did to this claim since you say that you have been in astral more than a few times.

What is strange about my reaction? I reply that way because I *do* have conscious experience in not just the astral but Higher Realms as well and thus it is a simple matter for me to discern whether a speaker knows what he is talking about.
This is just more astral foo-foo and fluff. I asked specifically how *you* made the determination. Hand waving at vague generalities is not a valid, meaningful answer. You say you met one person that you 'know' has a solar body. I ask you, specifically, *how* did you make this determination?



QuoteDid you concluded that he had orgasmic sex because of those two passeges you posted?

No. It is just reasonable conjecture based on the fact that he presented himself as a typical westerner, married and in a normal relationship. To presume that he was NOT having normal orgasmic sex would require that you have some evidence to indicate such. To claim that this engineer and businessman in the USA in the 1950's who was completely clueless about his spontaneous OBEs was somehow practicing "White Tantra" and Alchemy is, frankly, absurd. Based on the data provided in Monroe's books it is apparent that Monroe reached this "ultimate destination" (your words  :wink: ) all the while enjoying a regular, sexually active and orgasmic relationship with his wife.

QuoteI didn't said that Monroe reached the "ultimate" destination. I said he was enabled to travel there because he merged with his I-There. Big difference.

Stan, you *did* say that;
QuoteYou might have read Monroe's last book. There he went thrrough similar process where, once he became one with his I-There (large part of Higher Self), he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination.

:?

QuoteAs I said in my previous posts, he was exception when it comes to spiritual development because of the number of human lifes he had. His egos were eliminated in a special way through tests in the astral. And besides, we don't know what he did and what he didn't created in his previous lifes.

If his egos were eliminated in a "special" way... what is the "regular" or standard way? I know the Scientologists have an auditing procedure that they claim reduces the "heavy load".

QuoteIn regards to what you said about "physical thing", I have already explained in previous posts about the difference between sexual attraction and lust.

Can you elaborate what did you meant in regards to visiting high planes in relation to Yoga you practiced?

Well, yes, you explained about the difference between sex and lust but it did not really make much sense. I quoted Monroe exactly. His point was clear. Your ruminations about lust did not make a relevant point. Monroe apparently had a normal sexual relationship and he stated outright that it was just a 'physical thing'. Now, if you want to say there is more to sex and Inner Growth (via Tantra/Alchemy) than that you will have to come up with a better example than Monroe because his example serves only to contradict your claim... in a very big way.

Regarding visiting high planes I merely mentioned that my experience is contrary to your claims and you asked for detail on my method and I reported my Yoga history. Unless you ask a specific question I do not know what to say. I followed that fasting, meditation, journaling, etc. regime for many, many years. I gave you the exact name, Surat Shabd Yoga and I posted a link for further reading. If you have a specific question I might be able to home in on what it is you are really curious about.
Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

stan

Quote
You say you met one person. You made only a hand waving, smoke blowing reply about the astral in this regard. I would really like a clear, straightforward reply on this. People make claims about things like solar bodies and amazing abilities so often but whenever I press for details it becomes obvious that the claimant really has no idea what he is talking about.

Did it ever occurred to you that details from my experience might be personal and not something i'd like to share with everyone? And that I cannot extract just the part you are asking without making personal things known too?

Quote
No. It is just reasonable conjecture based on the fact that he presented himself as a typical westerner, married and in a normal relationship. To presume that he was NOT having normal orgasmic sex would require that you have some evidence to indicate such. To claim that this engineer and businessman in the USA in the 1950's who was completely clueless about his spontaneous OBEs was somehow practicing "White Tantra" and Alchemy is, frankly, absurd.

1950's is when he wrote his first book and when he had very limited knowledge. That spans over period of 10 years and he didn't refrained from regular sex back then. I was referring to time spans when he wrote second and third book (when he knew much more).

Quote
Based on the data provided in Monroe's books it is apparent that Monroe reached this "ultimate destination" (your words  :wink: ) all the while enjoying a regular, sexually active and orgasmic relationship with his wife.

Alright, if that makes you more at ease ;) I do advise looking into it though, if your goal is to reach something above averege. One year of universal esoteric practice is enough for you to KNOW what I'm telling you about.

Quote
Stan, you *did* say that;

I said "enabled", not "reached". Read the quote again.

Quote
If his egos were eliminated in a "special" way... what is the "regular" or standard way?

Standard way is to eliminate them from moment to moment, in daily life, as they surface.

Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 12:09:01
Did it ever occurred to you that details from my experience might be personal and not something i'd like to share with everyone? And that I cannot extract just the part you are asking without making personal things known too?

I am not asking for personal details. If you claim to be able to drive a car there are certain very general observations you can make to show this. You do not have to tell me what kind of music you might listen to while driving or any other personal matters. Just simple objective statements that demonstrate how you evaluated whether someone else had this Solar Body thing.

Quote1950's is when he wrote his first book and when he had very limited knowledge. That spans over period of 10 years and he didn't refrained from regular sex back then. I was referring to time spans when he wrote second and third book (when he knew much more).

Nothing he said in any of his books indicated to me that he was practicing anything other than a normal regular sexual relationship with his wife. Can you provide quotes that indicate otherwise?

QuoteAlright, if that makes you more at ease ;) I do advise looking into it though, if your goal is to reach something above averege. One year of universal esoteric practice is enough for you to KNOW what I'm telling you about.

It is not a matter of being at ease. Nothing I said implied that I was intent upon comfort or ease. Why did you say that? I mentioned it because it indicates that your claim is bogus. What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about? One year isn't really a very long time in esoteric School terms. I would be willing to make that effort if specific gains could be realized.

QuoteI said "enabled", not "reached". Read the quote again.

Good grief! What a ridiculous nit-pik. "Reached" is a valid and accurate simplification of "enabled to travel to" a 'destination'. You said, "he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination". How is that NOT consistent with "reached"?   ??


QuoteStandard way is to eliminate them from moment to moment, in daily life, as they surface.

Again  :wink:, do you know of people who practice this standard exercise? Does it work? and how do you know it works? (I am very results oriented).
Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

stan

#43
Quote
I am not asking for personal details. If you claim to be able to drive a car there are certain very general observations you can make to show this. You do not have to tell me what kind of music you might listen to while driving or any other personal matters. Just simple objective statements that demonstrate how you evaluated whether someone else had this Solar Body thing.

I pondered over how to tell you what happened during those experiences and I can't find a way how to do it without including personal details. Objective demonstration is entangled with personal details.
Quote
Nothing he said in any of his books indicated to me that he was practicing anything other than a normal regular sexual relationship with his wife. Can you provide quotes that indicate otherwise?

No, he didn't make a public statement that he was refraining from orgasm. His books also don't deal with HOW to spiritually develop. He only mentions what one needs to do to break free from Earth. But there are many clues about deeper nature of development. For example, he realized in second book that the urge for sex is hindrance for exploring when out of body. He used "not now, later" approach to neutralise it. Then when he saw the sex pile he said that the memory of what happened there will from now on be enough to neutralise that urge. Also in second book, ED told BB how all humans are stuck to Earth because they got addicted to things which comes with it (thoughts, emotions etc.) and how in order for them to break free of it, they need to climb out (he used similar term). Those who practice esoteric teachings know that lust is the greatest addiction of all those thoughts and emotions, and they also know what happens when one has orgasm.

QuoteIt is not a matter of being at ease. Nothing I said implied that I was intent upon comfort or ease. Why did you say that? I mentioned it because it indicates that your claim is bogus.

It looked to me like you hold on to those two passages you quoted, as a mean to justify yourself to yourself that orgasms are not hindrance to development.

QuoteWhat exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about? One year isn't really a very long time in esoteric School terms. I would be willing to make that effort if specific gains could be realized.

Universal esoteric practice is a universal way of development. By studying religions and scriptures of ancient cultures such as Mayas, Incas, Egyptians etc., one sees that they all speak of one and universal way of development. Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P. Hall is a compilation of that demonstration. In more modern times, people who dedicated their lifes to make teachings available to others are Helena Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Samael Aun Weor, Belzebuub etc. (Apparently Carl Jung and Rudolf Steiner have a lot of esoteric practices in their books but I haven't yet read their books so I can't tell).

One year is enough to see significant changes if you put this work as your top priority. There are three main keys, I only practice first (elimination of egos) and have seen tangible result after a year. Someone who practice both that and alchemy (second key) is likely to see even more.

QuoteGood grief! What a ridiculous nit-pik. "Reached" is a valid and accurate simplification of "enabled to travel to" a 'destination'. You said, "he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination". How is that NOT consistent with "reached"?   ??

Lol, well to some "reached" means "to attain permanently or for a longer period of time".

QuoteAgain  :wink:, do you know of people who practice this standard exercise? Does it work? and how do you know it works? (I am very results oriented).

Yes, I practice it, and know others who do too. Avarege human has very tiny percent of his consciousness available. Most of his consciousness is trapped in egos. The more egos you eliminate, the more consciousness you rescue from it and that rescued consciousness merges with consciousness you have available. In this way consciousness increases in size and that is a very tangible result. It's also very tangible when you see that you are more and more free from anger, fear, pride, greed, lust etc.

Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 15:35:00
I pondered over how to tell you what happened during those experiences and I can't find a way how to do it without including personal details. Objective demonstration is entangled with personal details.

That's too bad then. I am left to conclude that you merely read about this condition somewhere and you took it on faith to be true. I mean, you do not claim to personally have a Solar Body and you can only report of knowing one person who does... but you can't describe how you know this to be true. I think the  inability to report objectively on the experience without being able to separate 'personal' details is a defense mechanism, subconscious or otherwise.

QuoteNo, he didn't make a public statement that he was refraining from orgasm. His books also don't deal with HOW to spiritually develop. He only mentions what one needs to do to break free from Earth. But there are many clues about deeper nature of development.

He mentioned nothing about refraining from orgasm. Nothing. Not openly or directly, and not even in a vague reference. Those who are trying to claim that orgasm hinders Inner Spiritual Growth need to avoid the subject of Robert Monroe because his work is a glaring refutation of such a claim and is a testimony to how irrelevant orgasms are to Spiritual Growth.


QuoteIt looked to me like you hold on to those two passages you quoted, as a mean to justify yourself to yourself that orgasms are not hindrance to development.

I am not trying to justify anything because I do not have to justify anything here. I am not the one who claimed that orgasms were detrimental to Spiritual growth. You did. *You* are the one who needs to justify the unusual claim that you made. So far your score is a great big goose egg.  :-P


QuoteUniversal esoteric practice is a universal way of development. By studying religions and scriptures of ancient cultures such as Mayas, Incas, Egyptians etc., one sees that they all speak of one and universal way of development. Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P. Hall is a compilation of that demonstration. In more modern times, people who dedicated their lifes to make teachings available to others are Helena Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Samael Aun Weor, Belzebuub etc. (Apparently Carl Jung and Rudolf Steiner have a lot of esoteric practices in their books but I haven't yet read their books so I can't tell).

Just more ambiguous hand waving. That doesn't answer the question, "What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about?" I happen to own Manly P. Hall's Secret Teachings of all Ages and I have read much of it. I also own Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine and have read much of it. I also own many books by Gurdjieff and his followers and I met weekly with neo-Gurdjieffian Aspirants for over a year. (Gurdjieff had lots of full orgasmic sex). I have read several books by Samael Aun Weor and even spent a year or so studying and participating on the Glorian discussion forum before they shut it down. I posted frequently there (also as 'Rudolph', fyi) and I was temp-banned for asking tough questions which they labeled as 'disrespectful'. ( I wanted to know how Samael managed to father at least 6 children from at least three different women without ever having an orgasm... four of them with his main non-orgasmic 'alchemy' partner...and at least one with one of his later concubines...?...the Glorian Teachers openly admitted that Samael had several extra-marital 'alchemy' sex partners even though that was strictly forbidden according to his earlier writings).   :lol: :lol:

I always got a kick outta the true believers there who replied, "it could happen".
Yeah, right....  :lol:


QuoteOne year is enough to see significant changes if you put this work as your top priority. There are three main keys, I only practice first (elimination of egos) and have seen tangible result after a year. Someone who practice both that and alchemy (second key) is likely to see even more.

I was asking for specific results. What *specifically* does a year of this practice provide? What *specifically* does adding more 'keys' to the practice result in? If the results are "tangible" it should be a simple matter to say what they are. (Why is it always like pulling teeth, trying to get those who make these claims to superior esoteric practice actually get specific?...maybe give a real example or two??).

Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

stan

#45
QuoteThat's too bad then. I am left to conclude that you merely read about this condition somewhere and you took it on faith to be true.

You can conclude whatever you wish to conclude.

QuoteHe mentioned nothing about refraining from orgasm. Nothing. Not openly or directly, and not even in a vague reference. Those who are trying to claim that orgasm hinders Inner Spiritual Growth need to avoid the subject of Robert Monroe because his work is a glaring refutation of such a claim and is a testimony to how irrelevant orgasms are to Spiritual Growth.

It's pointless to go further with Monroe because you are neglecting all points and hints I mentioned to you, even from those passage you quoted from him.  If you want to believe that orgasms did not prevented Monroe to reach spiritual mastery, that's fine. If you want to have your own experience of what lust is and what concequences orgasm brings, that's fine too.

QuoteThat doesn't answer the question, "What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about?"

I briefly described this universal way of development, which consist of dying to egos, practicing alchemy and helping others. You would know what I'm talking about by applying those techniques, as I already mentioned in previous posts.

QuoteI happen to own Manly P. Hall's Secret Teachings of all Ages and I have read much of it. I also own Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine and have read much of it.

Great. There are other great readings such as Nag Hammadi scriptures and Bhagavad Gita, if you are interested.

QuoteI also own many books by Gurdjieff and his followers and I met weekly with neo-Gurdjieffian Aspirants for over a year. (Gurdjieff had lots of full orgasmic sex).

Alright, and what did you hear that made you conclude that Gurdjieff had lots of orgasmic sex?

QuoteI wanted to know how Samael managed to father at least 6 children from at least three different women without ever having an orgasm... four of them with his main non-orgasmic 'alchemy' partner...and at least one with one of his later concubines...?the Glorian Teachers openly admitted that Samael had several extra-marital 'alchemy' sex partners even though that was strictly forbidden according to his earlier writings.

It's not really strictly forbbiden. It's more that love is the keypoint in order for alchemy to work, and love develops in a stable relationship.
In regards how he could have children without orgasms, there are many factors involved how that could happen: He might have some of children before he started with alchemy. He might have got too close to orgasm and couldn't stop it. He and she might have asked Higher Self/Being to guide semen (some semen is always lost even without orgasm) to the womb. He might have had a partner who was not into spirituality and alchemy, and due to her aburpt sexual movememnt he reached too close to orgasm and couldn't prevent it. Lots of potential variables.

QuoteWhat *specifically* does a year of this practice provide?

As I said in previous post, death of the egos provide increase of consciousness and decrease of egos. How much you benefit from it is entirely up to your efforts. Details? Your consciousness increases in size which expand your visual perception. It's not that you see details which are miles away, it's more about perceiving expansion of environment around you. Just like being in a huge factory hall which has very dimmed lights. Then as the light increases you start seeing more and more of what is around you in that factory.
You also start to see more when you look into material world and its objects - you see its illusionary nature, its supstance. This perception increases as your consciousness grows. Also, the more conscious you are in physical, the more conscious you are in astral.

When it comes to decrease of egos, you know it because egos start to have less and less grip upon you. For example, say you work intensely on anger, then after a while you find yourself in situation in which you always react with anger, but this time you are much more detached frrom it, and it doesnt have such grip upon you. Anger is still there, but not in a form where it takes control over you.

What *specifically* does adding more 'keys' to the practice result in?

As I said in previous posts, I don't practice alchemy (second key) so I don't know what it results in, only what I heard it does. Results which I already told you many times now ;) are: higher bodies, psychic faculties, incarnation of higher parts of the Being etc.
Third and final key is helping others spiritually. We have to help others so that we are helped in return.

P.S. Since huge part of this disscusion is based on your questioning of what say, would be nice if in future you would process what I say in my posts and continue asking questions based on that.

Summerlander


Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 18, 2011, 04:44:27
You can conclude whatever you wish to conclude.

Of course. But to be more exact, I will conclude what facts, logic and a disciplined intellect lead me to conclude. All of these are usually tossed out early on by those seeking to be lost in a cult mentality.

QuoteIt's pointless to go further with Monroe because you are neglecting all points and hints I mentioned to you, even from those passage you quoted from him.  If you want to believe that orgasms did not prevented Monroe to reach spiritual mastery, that's fine. If you want to have your own experience of what lust is and what concequences orgasm brings, that's fine too.

Not only is it NOT pointless but completely on topic and meaningful. Monroe is a good example of how wrong your main premise is. You made no valid points concerning Monroe's writing and your "hints" were just grasping at straws, at best -- there was NOTHING in the quotes I gave that supported you claim about orgasms. NOTHING. Only those lost in a cult mentality could see the opposite of what is truly sitting directly before them. A simple case of denial.

QuoteI briefly described this universal way of development, which consist of dying to egos, practicing alchemy and helping others. You would know what I'm talking about by applying those techniques, as I already mentioned in previous posts.

You explained nothing about those things. You merely did some hand waving by mentioning some nebulous 'universal' way and 'egos' and making unsubstantiated claims about what you imagine they do. This is typical of those lost in cult-think. They accept out of hand what they read in a book or hear from the 'master's' lips and suspend disbelief and never pause to evaluate if it really is true or not.


QuoteGreat. There are other great readings such as Nag Hammadi scriptures and Bhagavad Gita, if you are interested.

Heh. I own the hardback edition of the Nag Hammadi too and enjoyed it very much. I have many volumes of the Gita as well.   8-)


QuoteAlright, and what did you hear that made you conclude that Gurdjieff had lots of orgasmic sex?

I told you that I read not just his books but also those of many of his followers. The females were open about his sexual activity and made reference to the multiple children running around the grounds of his Institute who obviously displayed uniquely Gurdjieffian DNA characteristics.  :wink:
Read, The Work Life and Unforgotten Fragments by Beryl Pogson for more detail. Also try Kathleen Speath, Kathryn Hulme... The last two are probably out of print though.


QuoteIt's not really strictly forbbiden. It's more that love is the keypoint in order for alchemy to work, and love develops in a stable relationship.
In regards how he could have children without orgasms, there are many factors involved how that could happen: He might have some of children before he started with alchemy. He might have got too close to orgasm and couldn't stop it. He and she might have asked Higher Self/Being to guide semen (some semen is always lost even without orgasm) to the womb. He might have had a partner who was not into spirituality and alchemy, and due to her aburpt sexual movememnt he reached too close to orgasm and couldn't prevent it. Lots of potential variables.

Another good example of Cult-think, Stan. "not really strictly forbidden"...??... just sorta, kinda? I read some of Samael's work and extra-marital affairs are definitely forbidden. And it is/was presented as such to new aspirants. And now I have to wonder about how honest you are being here. I think you know full well that he had four children with his main alchemy partner who was supposedly 'expert'. And the Glorian folks admitted to at least one more child born to a special Alchemy partner when he got tired of his old one. They even admit to numerous mistresses at that time. The blatant hypocrisy in all this is undeniable. And your reply strains credulity. C'mon! ... maybe one child ... but SIX! or more? ... get real. And according to the Doctrine, for a Master to even have an accidental orgasm means a complete loss of progress on the Path. Right?
But for those lost in a cloud of cult-think these issues are glossed over and quickly stuffed into the "deep-denial" folder in a dark place of the brain.  :|


QuoteAs I said in previous post, death of the egos provide increase of consciousness and decrease of egos. How much you benefit from it is entirely up to your efforts. Details? Your consciousness increases in size which expand your visual perception. It's not that you see details which are miles away, it's more about perceiving expansion of environment around you. Just like being in a huge factory hall which has very dimmed lights. Then as the light increases you start seeing more and more of what is around you in that factory.
You also start to see more when you look into material world and its objects - you see its illusionary nature, its supstance. This perception increases as your consciousness grows. Also, the more conscious you are in physical, the more conscious you are in astral.

That's not detail, Stan. That is self delusion. What you say, "about perceiving expansion of environment around you" is claimed by most all these meditation groups and it is true to some degree for anyone who practices any kind of real meditation and daily 'awareness' exercises. There is nothing special about that.
I have personally communicated with honest cult members who openly admit now, after many years of practice of this Death of the Egos that they have really have made no significant progress at all. And when I visit the Forums for these Samael Alchemy School groups it is clear that almost no one is making progress. The total meltdown of one group recently was a joke! Senior members, even teachers... nearly all fell into a state of open despair... the whining and complaining... the anger, hurt feelings... open expression of aggressive intent and revenge... it was laughable! A giant EGO-Fest! extraordinaire!  :lol:

On several fronts across oceans, I participated in forums in both English and Spanish and what I saw was a complete lack of any sort of real progress. Very few are able to get a conscious OBE on a regular basis and "understanding" is rare. Most display common, garden variety levels of ignorance. Though some do show amazing ability to quote from Samael's books.

QuoteWhen it comes to decrease of egos, you know it because egos start to have less and less grip upon you. For example, say you work intensely on anger, then after a while you find yourself in situation in which you always react with anger, but this time you are much more detached frrom it, and it doesnt have such grip upon you. Anger is still there, but not in a form where it takes control over you.

As I said above, it became clear that even senior members let anger take complete control for months on end. It was ridiculously obvious. It was an open display of failure.

QuoteP.S. Since huge part of this disscusion is based on your questioning of what say, would be nice if in future you would process what I say in my posts and continue asking questions based on that.

What an arrogant and condescending tone to take, Stan. Just more cult-think... I have objectively processed every word you have said to me. The fact that I reject your "hints" and ambiguous hand waving means to you that I am not listening. But in reality, I am looking for results. I have evaluated your claim on its merits. And I find that there are none.
Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

gdo

What is good and proper for one person to make progress along a particular spiritual path is not for another. 

What may seem to one to be very strict difficult discipline is for another the simple joy of living on a specific level.  There are levels of acheivement along the Path and there are different tasks and lessons on each level. 

In any case, the simple fact is, your so called Lower Chakras have alot in common with the animal world and your Higher Chakras are reflections of a level higher than the animal world.

Consider that the more a person relates his or her Identity with the higher levels the less dramatic the pull of the lower urges. 

Also, as I stated before, what is called the creative energy in a human is not just sexual energy.   There is ONE energy that takes many forms.  Sexual activity is an act of generation and also of Unity.  The urge to unite.  Can you safely assume that all humans experience sexual union the same way?   Can you imagine that a person could easily use ALL of there generative/imaginative energy in expression other than sexual generation?    In order to do that you have to admit that where you are now is not the summit of knowledge on the topic. 

Assume for a moment that you are earning 1500.00 a month and you want to buy a house.  Fine, but if you spend all your earnings on immediate pleasures rather than saving for a down payment and establishing good credit you will not have the wherewithall to buy that house, you have to give something up.  You have to change how you spend your earnings.
You save the earnings instead of going out for entertainment every night, or what ever you have been Spending it on.   One person saves and buys a fine house.  Another never gets his/her plan off the ground because they spend to much.  Another person not only saved but prospered and multiplied the saved earnings and not built a special house and much more.

Can you see the correlation?   

Not only that but some people might have learned these lessons in prevous lifetimes so it is easier for them to take the generative energy to higher levels.  Hey, a child might use a stepstool to reach the sink to brush their teeth but when they are older and taller they no longer need a ladder and they brush their teeth gladly.   Can you get the drift?

Some Alchemists had/have children and some did not, some are completed alchemists and some are not. 

You might well think that all acts of union are holy, from the smallest of the subatomic particles to the largest star masses and even amonst living creatures including us, not matter what your path is or where you are on that path. 

Rudolph

Quote from: gdo on August 18, 2011, 21:08:12
Can you see the correlation?   

Yes. But I would like to ask a few questions.
Do you practice sexual Alchemy?
If so, what School or branch? and...
How long have you been practicing?

QuoteNot only that but some people might have learned these lessons in prevous lifetimes so it is easier for them to take the generative energy to higher levels.  Hey, a child might use a stepstool to reach the sink to brush their teeth but when they are older and taller they no longer need a ladder and they brush their teeth gladly.   Can you get the drift?

Some Alchemists had/have children and some did not, some are completed alchemists and some are not. 

Of course, the drift is simple.

This brings up another question; what is a 'completed' alchemist?

For some reason there are many people who like to comment on discussion topics in very general and ambiguous terms. For those who only dabble and just want a surface overview this is fine. But for those who are intent on making real progress this is lacking in substance. I think it is much more helpful and useful to be very specific and give exact instructions that produce a verifiable outcome.

The claims made on some venues about this Sexual Alchemy practice are pretty amazing. I read a summary decades ago from one Surat Shabd teacher that there was at one time, a valid and effective Tantric/sexual Alchemy School and Method that produced valuable results in the Eternal sense, only that lineage died out and there were no longer any qualified instructors. So far what I have seen is consistent with this assertion.

But I am willing to give any claims to the contrary a fair evaluation.

Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.