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sex and religion

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stan

QuoteWhat may seem to one to be very strict difficult discipline is for another the simple joy of living on a specific level.  There are levels of acheivement along the Path and there are different tasks and lessons on each level.

Good point gdo. I think it has a lot to do with boundaries which everyone subconsciously set to oneself. Often it's a matter of being conditioned by society, religion etc. when growing up. It's not uncommon that when people pass such boundaries that they are happy that they did, because they see things further and with higher perspective. Similarly how a person who overcomes a fear of astral is happy that they did because they see potential that astral holds for them. Though like you said, being more or less ready is also influenced by past life experiences and some other things.

gdo

Rudy,

A completed alchemist is an individual who has no further 'karma' as most people think of it, and more.  These individuals have no need to incarnate as they are identified with the Life principle itself.   They can and do incarnate but not out of necessity. 

As far as the term sexual alchemy, there is really one Alchemy.  Alchemy, as does all spiritual paths, use the creative energy to turn the base metals of personality into spiritual and physical gold.   

Do I practice Alchemy?   Yes. 
What branch?               Alchemy is a term that refers to the Western (European) schools and traditions, which are slightly different from Eastern Schools. The goals and results are    the same.

I do not think I was general or ambiguous, in fact, I thought was I posted was plainly stated. 

Personal Instruction is available, but not in a public forum and, as I mentioned before, what is good and proper for one person is not for another. 

Perhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate what you have been involved in in these regards. 

I can suggest to anyone who is interested to read the Fama Fraternitatis.  Then also read what you can find authored by known Alchemists.  Some of it will be easy reading and some will at first be difficult.  Let it soak in. 

Rudolph

#52
Quote from: gdo on August 19, 2011, 15:48:47
As far as the term sexual alchemy, there is really one Alchemy.  Alchemy, as does all spiritual paths, use the creative energy to turn the base metals of personality into spiritual and physical gold.

Ok. But I was mostly curious about the peculiar form of Samaelian sexual Alchemy that was just recently being discussed. The standard Rosicrucian form is a separate matter in my mind. (for good reasons)


QuoteDo I practice Alchemy?   Yes. 
What branch?               Alchemy is a term that refers to the Western (European) schools and traditions, which are slightly different from Eastern Schools. The goals and results are the same.

I do not think I was general or ambiguous, in fact, I thought was I posted was plainly stated. 

It is very possible to plainly make ambiguous or general comments.
Among the Western Schools there are many various branches and I am familiar with a whole bunch of them. One or two particular words that mean little to the average man on the street would clearly identify your School to me in no uncertain fashion. Just the super-secret modus operandi alone cuts the possible candidate field in half for me.   8-)


QuotePersonal Instruction is available, but not in a public forum and, as I mentioned before, what is good and proper for one person is not for another. 

But of course.

QuotePerhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate what you have been involved in in these regards. 

You first.
:wink:


QuoteI can suggest to anyone who is interested to read the Fama Fraternitatis.  Then also read what you can find authored by known Alchemists.  Some of it will be easy reading and some will at first be difficult.  Let it soak in.

All the cloak n' dagger is too much for me. I agree with Crowley on this point. You could blabber away on a crowded street corner, any and all your brotherhood secrets and not only would most folks completely ignore you but even those mildly interested would not have a clue what it is you were talking about.

The Secret is safe.



Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

gdo

I do not know what you mean by super secret at all.  I have not tried to hide anything at all. 

As far as reading the Fama and the early Alchemists, if it seems like blabber to you, then ok.  It does seem like that to many people at first.  So do many other types of writings.

The topic of discussion was Sex and religion.  Not bona fides.

Did the analogy of saving money make sense to you?  Can you see that there is a similarity between what you create mentally and the power that we use for generation?

When you meditate you are using that same power. 

Rudolph

Quote from: gdo on August 19, 2011, 20:27:00
I do not know what you mean by super secret at all.  I have not tried to hide anything at all. 

Really?
I asked you outright, directly and in a straightforward manner, Do you practice sexual Alchemy?
If so, what School or branch? and...
How long have you been practicing?

You replied ambiguously and answered none of the questions.

QuoteAs far as reading the Fama and the early Alchemists, if it seems like blabber to you, then ok.  It does seem like that to many people at first.  So do many other types of writings.

I did not say it seemed like "blabber" (as a noun) to me - I used the word as a verb. Are you going to try to play word games with me?


QuoteThe topic of discussion was Sex and religion.  Not bona fides.

The topic of discussion was sexual alchemy. The Subject heading is "sex and religion". No one asked you for bona fides... just personal history with the subject matter. (more childish wordplay).


QuoteDid the analogy of saving money make sense to you?  Can you see that there is a similarity between what you create mentally and the power that we use for generation?

good grief...

What was it I was saying a few weeks or months ago here?... one of the problems commonly seen among those who begin the esoteric work is, "delusions of grandeur".

What is your point gdo?

I was recently asking Stan to back up his claims about orgasms and wasting energy...

?

What does your recent contribution have to do with the price of tea in China?

:?


Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.

Xanth

C'mon guys, let's try to work together here.  :)

A tip... step back once in a while, we're all friends here.  ;)

gdo

I think Rudy likes to be confrontational rather than stick to the original topic. 

Anyone reading this series of posts can take what they want from all of the information posted here and make what they want of it.

If, for any reason, some one disagrees with what I have posted, that is fine.  Everything I stated you can look up, or disbelieve.  I was not offering HOW TO information or personal solutions any one persons alchemical work, merely entering the discussion upon seeing some personal discord. 

The simple fact is that each person has to find their way in spiritual development and that each of us is different enough that one rule may be generally applicable rather than specific.

Anyone and everyone uses the generative power everyday.  That power has different levels of use.  While it is being used for one thing, obviously it cannot also be used for another. You cannot use a hammer to pound a nail and at the same time use the claw  to pull a nail.
The easiest and most approachable transforming technique for the generative power for most people has been Meditation. Ultimately each person has to anwer to his or herself on what is effective and also what is not.   What is strict and uncomfortable and even painfull for one person is not for another.  Somewhere between total and complete sexual abstinence and moderate normal restriction is a path for most spiritual aspirants.



stan

Rudolph, after your last post directed to me, I figured it's pointless to continue further, but I will refer to one more thing you posted there.

You said how you didn't see any changes in people using Samael's method of dying to egos. The elimination Samael taught is based on understanding an ego in fullness and then once this is done, one should direct a petition to one's own Being to eliminate it. This version of technique, in itself, is not beneficial for progress because an ego such as fear for example, has many thousands of manifestation, and it would take a lifetime to understand it fully.

Egos also manifest at every moment, and if one doesn't eliminate them, they just feed and get stronger. Rabolu, his student who raeched mastery, said that none of Samael's students were truly eliminating egos, so he pondered over what Samael meant when he said "we need to die from moment to moment", and realized that one should actually apply elimination every time an ego surface. Then Rabolu's student Belzebuub, who also reached mastery, revolutionized this even more and combined this new version of death from moment to moment, with meditation on an ego. Usually all groups that follow Samael's teachings only do meditation on an ego, and as you may noticed on Glorian forums, people there react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment).

If you are interested, you can read more about this and many other points that were raised in this discussion, in Belzebuub's book Secret Knowledge, Hidden Wisdom. The book is now unavailable as a paperback because it will be soon released as a free ebook.


Summerlander

You might as well just let it go guys.  Just believe in what you want because pointing out how wrong the other guy is won't make him change his mind to agree with your views, it will only do the opposite.  Each one to their own.  There's no right or wrong here - only individual interpretations.

Rudolph

Quote from: stan on August 20, 2011, 09:21:45
Rudolph, after your last post directed to me, I figured it's pointless to continue further, but I will refer to one more thing you posted there.

Thanks for the wrap up there Stan. You are a man of manners.

QuoteYou said how you didn't see any changes in people using Samael's method of dying to egos. The elimination Samael taught is based on understanding an ego in fullness and then once this is done, one should direct a petition to one's own Being to eliminate it. This version of technique, in itself, is not beneficial for progress because an ego such as fear for example, has many thousands of manifestation, and it would take a lifetime to understand it fully.

I do not think I made an evaluation about anyone else's "changes". That would be almost impossible to state with confidence. I said one honest practitioner told us that he admits that after many years of practice, he had very little in the way of improvement to show for it. He was still plagued by negative states and he could not go OBE.

I did make a general observation that I saw a veritable parade of negative states on one forum after a public site made a few minor accusations against the "master". The firestorm of negative emotion that followed was an obvious display of egos run amok and it was nearly universal. It was openly and plainly visible to all that even many years of practicing the "Three Keys" of The Death of the Egos, Sexual Alchemy, and Service to Humanity (which actually means service to Belzebuub)  had done very little to advance the state of consciousness -- even among long time members and teachers. As I said, the anger, hurt feelings, aggressive tone and calls for revenge, etc. revealed just how little maturity and detachment the faithful had gained in five and even ten years of practice.

There were a few voices of reason that chimed in occasionally but they were quickly drowned out by the angry mob. I know that among the Surat Shabd Yoga groups there would have been a quick slap down on all that complaining early on, from the experienced Initiates and chelas.

I noticed how over time, the Samaelian groups are growing more and more closed and freedom of honest expression is suppressed. At Glorian and other sites there used to be open chatrooms for people to discuss their Work and progress, or lack of progress, etc. But these were shut down when discussions of topics that did the organization no favors were brought up. Both the Glorian and then the GM chatrooms were shut down and then even the open forums were closed down. I went to a Spanish (Osacar Uzcategui leader, I believe) chatroom and when the chat turned into a giant, angry Anti-Catholic bigotry party I began injecting facts and data that showed most of the comments were not true. The moderator was fine with it until I started correcting the record and then he quickly stepped in and kicked everyone off saying he had to reboot the server... heh... yeah right.... The anti-USA sentiment also bordered on outright hatred. So much for their ego death practice....

Whenever facts are introduced that make elements of the Doctrine appear less than perfection the moderators would quickly shut things down, lock and even delete threads. I found this to be common on both the Gnostic Movement and the Glorian sites. This is not how Sincere Seekers of Truth behave.

I brought up issues and questions that often caused a stir on these forums and I was given repeated warnings to back off. In the GM classes Senior Teachers even would simply make up a bald faced lie when it suited them in order to "control" the information flow. This is NOT how enlightened Disciples behave. In fact, it is a sure sign of something very, very wrong among the authority channels there.

There were many questions that I had that simply were not allowed as part of any discussion;

* Samael made a prediction of cataclysmic destruction around the world (primarily in the USA  :lol:) that was supposed to hit before 1980. When that didn't happen he moved it to 1999. When that didn't happen the powers that be moved it out a few more decades... what joke. [from Rings of Alcyon -- shortly after I pointed out this discrepancy the free download for this book was removed from the server].

* I have pointed out blatant errors of historical fact in the group propaganda and provided sources to back it up but the anti-Catholic bigotry (and even anti-USA hate speech) continues unabated. A most unenlightened condition.

* Rabolu apparently abandoned his wife and small children on a little strip of dirt that he called a farm in order to pursue missionary work for Samael. This supposedly was forbidden by Samael. Men are supposed to support their families, according to Doctrine. And then Rabolu attained "mastership"...?... but ... who was his alchemy partner? How could that be? His wife was far away in another country. No one discusses these things.

* Rabolu also predicted cataclysmic destruction (also primarily in the USA  :lol: :lol:) that did not happen. He even predicted that "Sea Monsters" on the bottom of the ocean, now surviving on atomic energy, would rise up and devour coastal cities. This was all supposed to happen ten or twenty years ago. Funny how *that* part of his writings never got translated into English.  :-D

* After Samael's death Rabolu informed a large gathering of the faithful that a miraculously Resurrected Samael was walking around among them in his preserved Egyptian Mummy body! and he added, "Didn't you notice the man walking around here wearing a 'turban'?" only... hmmmm... Egyptians didn't wear turbans.  :lol: :lol:

* Belzebuub claimed valid descent of Master lineage through Rabolu but Rabolu had expelled/excommunicated Belzebuub for megalomania and this was hidden and kept from his followers. When documents showing this were produced some unlikely stories of how "it was just a test" were spread around.  ?! You gotta be kidding me! And the credulous faithful BOUGHT it! Swallowed it whole... pure Cult-Think. Their slavish loyalty to the Master borders on neurotic.

* Other charges were made and backed up with legal documents on public record but lame refutations were made with no documentation as support and the credulous disciples again, swallowed it whole. "Gosh, I am sure glad that has been cleared up"...  :lol: ... nothing had been cleared up! Most of the accusations of moral, ethical and sexual impropriety were not addressed at all!

Why can't people just look at the facts objectively and deal with them. Personally none of the revelations of multiple sex partners, property transfers, donation and money mishandling, and other such soap-opera details really bothered me as much as the simple, obvious, in-your-face reality that most disciples and followers were not making significant progress. The ability to Astral Project is presented as a key tool but the inability to get a conscious OBE is nearly universal. There is constant discussion of struggling with lust, and severe reactions to eating pork (  :?:lol: :lol: ). The regular discussion that goes on appears to the objective observer to be more than a little crazy.

Why not just admit the facts and say, "so what" and move on. ? Focus on results and making progress. But they do not do that because there is very little of that going on. The focus is on the Master's amazing Astral Adventures. Here, read his book. Make donations and support the Cause.


QuoteEgos also manifest at every moment, and if one doesn't eliminate them, they just feed and get stronger. Rabolu, his student who raeched mastery, said that none of Samael's students were truly eliminating egos, so he pondered over what Samael meant when he said "we need to die from moment to moment", and realized that one should actually apply elimination every time an ego surface. Then Rabolu's student Belzebuub, who also reached mastery, revolutionized this even more and combined this new version of death from moment to moment, with meditation on an ego. Usually all groups that follow Samael's teachings only do meditation on an ego, and as you may noticed on Glorian forums, people there react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment).

That is a well presented summary, Stan. Yes, the Glorian folks do react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment). In their defense I must admit they have very knowledgeable teachers but they can be quick to anger and are often overbearing. They got very upset and downright rude and abusive when I pointed out that their exalted Tibeten Monks were celibate -- i.e. they did NOT practice sexual alchemy, so how could their practice fit with Samael's teaching? They made the most ridiculous claims that they practiced sexual alchemy in 'secret'. Yeah, right....
It is all just so absurd. Since Samael lifted much of his Doctrine from Gurdjieff they must promulgate a story that Gurdjieff practiced this odd form of sexual alchemy too. But there is nothing Gurdjieff wrote to support that claim, and Gurdjieff wrote a LOT. And there are writings that outright refute such a claim. But these facts are ignored.

Ditto the Robert Monroe shore story. The Samael Doctrine states that sexual Alchemy is absolutely required to attain Mastery. So the credulous disciples must create some scenario where that must have been practiced. Even though Samael himself had so many children it seems impossible that he was copulating without orgasm, but to do so means the Master would 'Fall' so they must make excuses or the Doctrine is revealed as false.

Beware the fake "seeker" who finds Truth to be abusive.