Sexuality vs Spirituality

[narfellus]

I don't think there is any christian bashing at all here. Not sure where that came from.

This is an extremely well thought out topic and apprectiate everyone's posts, they've given me valuable food for thought. As for the Love vs. Lust, they are closely intertwined so i don't know where one begins necessarily and the other ends. If you LUST after someone, have a one-night-stand, yet still respect and admire and essentially "Love" that person, if not relationship wise or long term, i suppose that is a feeling/emotion that must be experienced. Many people go through life in casual sexual experience one after another, and then others marry early and love/lust one person their whole life, or sometimes they don't love/lust at all and endure rocky relationship because they fear being alone or the fear of loss.

I've often let fear control my actions and decision, which is unfortunely thinking much too like a human. I would prefer to make decision with the guidance of my higher self who knows better.

[narfellus]

And as others have mentioned so well, knowing oneself and not judging others or even yourself is the key to a balanced life (well, one of the keys). Adept, you did make some rather good points.

I think that in essence that sex should be a valued ASPECT of ones life, not an obession. It is ultimately healthy and spiritually inclined in ways i don't fully understand, but look forward to learning.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by Adept_of_Light

No. There can be conflict because sexuality is like a knife...

Lessons are learned by establishing and passing through various types of relationships, but these are very low level and "poor" lessons compared to the gigantic steps that are taken when sexuality is worked upon esoterically, but then again not all, in fact, most humans are not ready for this type of work and delving too early into such endevours could have adverse affects too. All good things, in good time. There is no need to rush, our spirits are eternal! =)

I'd say the two are definitely interconnected (sex and spirituality), and what happens to one certainly affects the other. In the end, depending on our individual states of personal development, the appropriate phase of sexuality and spiritual development must be undertaken in order for us to grow. There exist many levels to both sex and spirituality, but the important thing is to develop them in balance. Conflict arises when the two are out of sync or when we digress in the development of either. Lustful sex, as an example is nearly always a digression because of the harm (physically & spiritually) we are doing to ourselves if we never grow beyond this type of sex. That said, sometimes we need to undergo a relationship experiencing this type of sex to later realize what a poor cousin it is to sex with a partner whom we "love". This is a very extensive subject, and I've barely scratched the surface.

What I think I'm seeing in your post is that as we evolve as beings, it's not like a one sided thing, it's more like an onion.  If I am growing spiritually, seeking more lucid experiences with the Divine, this will branch out into all areas of my life.  I will seek greater expression of the Divine in my work, interactions and sexual experiences.  if I am living a superficial existence, with superficial desires, my desires will be in line with that.  I think (and feel free to correct me if this does not make sense) that what you mean by saying that when sexuality is worked on esoterically, this is ther further evolution of spirit desiring the greater expression in that area of the individual's experience.  Therefore (for lack of a better word) lustful sex, driven by pure physical desire can be hurtful because the individual may subconsciously be seeking the higher experiences yet is not yet capable of fully experiencing it.  This may be because of their own barriers and need for a further and deeper understanding of themselves as a spiritual being inhibit their ability to experience the higher levels of the sexual experience.  I also imagine this would require a partner who is also on the path and in search of the greater sexual/spiritual experience.  Do you feel both partners must be conscious that the sexual act can be a vehicle for experiencing the Divine in order for them to share the Divine experience?

quote:


I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity.

What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine?  Is this still egocentric?  I'm not asking a rhetorical question...  I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this,  because it is something that is a bit confusing to me.  If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?

quote:
Living against your own nature by imposing rules can actually be a very good thing for one's growth, assuming those rules are meant to help eradicate bad behaviour inherent in your present nature. Organized religeon is a good example of this, and I would go as far as saying that it is a necessary thing and there are a lot of people that gain and grow through its engagement.

I agree to a certain extent yet I believe there comes a point where through an individual's evolution, we outgrow the organized structure and need to forge our own way.  I agree that sex can be like a knife, it can benefit one or it can hurt one.  In fact, i can see this through the evolution of my own sexual experiences.  I feel that now, I am reaching a point where my spiritual evolution is pushing me to seek the greater experience in all aspects of my life.  My spiritual growth is directly in line with my work so that is all taken care of and my spiritual growth supports my work (I'm a Motivational Speaker/Writer)the sexual experience seems to be the main area that is lagging.  

In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college.  I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page.  Since then, I have grown Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33.  So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature.  Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path [B)].

Kerri

[wisp]

Taysin says:
What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions. In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.

During the rise of christianity (in it's more bloodthirsty times) the church in Rome wanted to stop people following the ancient ways and performing ritual sex in the fields and sacred places. What better way than to inform the masses that such activity was Satan's doing, in which case it supported the horrendous attitude that women were inherently evil, so therefore having sex with one was also evil. Which is one reason why it was thought we were all Sinners. Strangely enough though, having sex was okay with 'God' if it was to make babies... two rules, more control.

Celibacy has been chosen by 'holy people' as a means to focus attention on their task of growing in spiritual understanding.. which is very unbalanced in view of the fact that we are spiritual beings. I say this because being incarnate as a human means to be sexual in nature and to remove ourselves from the world in this way is as unbalanced as the person who wants as much sex as possible. So how can balance be obtained if we remove ourselves from human experience ? All things in moderation is one of the keys to balancing our human and spiritual nature, to bridge the void between the two.

Lighthouse says:
DAMN!! You make so much sense!  EXACTLY!!! Thanks Tayesin... damn organized religions... How many layers does one have to peel before reaching the truth???

Tayesin says:
Also, I have to say this.... the concept of us being imperfect is very much religious dogma and not at all factual in the bigger picture. It is something that was used to disempower the masses for control. Unfortunately it is still prevalent in christian circles today.

Lighthouse says:
So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality. The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature. As Adept_of_Light stated, is it wrong to have sex out of lust? Abstaining for reasons other than the true desire to do so can lead to physical ailments by repressing those urges (as all repressions and toxic thoughts seem to do in one form or another) and creating a toxic relationship between our instincts, desires and sexual nature VS our cultural, religious and moralistic conditioning. It seems tho me that this is the conflict in all issues regarding sex and spirituality... not just the abstensiton... that we are imposing our own man-made or man-proclaimed barriers and limitations against our nature...

Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment? I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day.

______________________________________________________________________


Okay, here's the dialog between Taysin and Lighthouse.You can go to the Christian forums and read endless dialog on the same subject.

Christianity is not the problem. There's a tendency for one to place blame on something that keeps one in a state of denial. It's easier to blame something on the outside rather than search yourself.

If a person is in a "box", sex is not your problem.In fact, it should be last on the list after you get your head on straight.

[jilola]

AdeptofLight:

quote:I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity.

I disagree. Removing the ego from te driver's seat doesnät remove desires and it should because ddesires are what keep us moving forward. It does, however, remove the attachment and dependency on the achievement and quality of the result of pursuing those desires.
In other words while one still strives towarrd a goal there is no longer any difference between achieving the goal and not achieving it.

Lighthouse:

quote:What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine? Is this still egocentric? I'm not asking a rhetorical question... I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this, because it is something that is a bit confusing to me. If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?

Based on what I stated above it depends on how much you are attached to the result of achieving the ecstasy.
It's egocentric (based on ego) when the non-attainment of the result causes us to feel less, disappinted and hurt.
But if one sincerely seeks the goal yet doesn't hang on the expectation of one result of another the desire is merely a desire and not egocentric. The difference is in seeing the journey as the important part and not the result and in being a sincere seeker.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[jilola]

Wisp:

quote:Christianity is not the problem. There's a tendency for one to place blame on something that keeps one in a state of denial. It's easier to blame something on the outside rather than search yourself.

Again, the only person who seems to find blame directed toward christianity is you. All I see is a number of people presenting their opinions in a rational and non-attacking manner.

Do you find the similar dialogue on the christian sites anti-christian as well? Perhaps you should examine yourself to find out why you feel so quick to point the blame on others while not actually adding anything to the discussion.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[kiauma]

Organized religion - empirialistic religions, in particular (those that claim to be the whole Truth, condemning non-followers as 'damned') - can be very much like a gun.  Loaded with a theological ammunition, it can explode with tremendous kinetic energy, and is very often used in the forceing of submission to another's will.

Of course we all know guns don't kill people, people kill people.  But then I wonder, why are we shooting each other in the first place?

[majour ka]

Some belive that the act of lurrve making opens a portale from the next dimension, so a soul may be incarnated in to this life (wish I could remember). Some people who have A.Pd and seen a river where spirit people jump in and are then transported the this dimmension have described it, and there is a story some where of an indian lad who remembers the river, and aspects of his previouse life, not far from where he lives now..anyway thats another story.

But if we truely do choose our parents, then every pregnacy weather the child is concieved in a solid loving marriage or up a back alley (pun intended [)]) behined a club on a saturday night, (what a beutiful picture im painting lol) the soul of that person chose their own circumstaces and birth parents to siute their own needs, so I would guess pretty every act of penetrative sex must have a place in the grand design of things.

What im saying is there has to be an imseprable link between spirituality and sex, Im of the notion that its more to do with the effect that anything might have an individuale and their personal feelings about it. Our physical life has to have pleasure, and if its harm to know one,...why not!. Would I have a one night stand? if it was with harm to know one, then of course and i believe im a very spiritual person.

2 cents, Marcus.

[kiauma]

The link between spirituality and sexuality precisely is creation, wether of love or life.

It is the exploitation of and through sex that is non-spiritual, and even destructive.

[wisp]

jilola asks:

quote:I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?

You asked for it and you got it. Now why are you blaming me for the interruption of thought on the subject of sexuality vs spirituality?  

I did contribute to the thread. If it hadn't turned into a bashing against religion it may have had some meaning, now it has no meaning what so ever.

Yes, there is a lot of anti-christian material in the christian forums. That's why it was put there, to put christians in their box. Unfortunately, every anti-christian so inclined, used it as their own personal shooting gallery. Thus, the violence continues.

Back on track, the mind and body is an important issue on this subject. But, carry on with your own ideas, I've lost interest.

Have fun on your slanted and disjointed journey (dis-joined).

[Lighthouse]

Wisp states:

quote:Yes, there is a lot of anti-christian material in the christian forums. That's why it was put there, to put christians in their box. Unfortunately, every anti-christian so inclined, used it as their own personal shooting gallery. Thus, the violence continues.

This is not an anti-christian thread and there is no violence being thrown at you or at Christianity in general.  It seems to me that you must be carrying around a lot of pain, Wisp, because you would not believe this to be true if you did not feel personally attacked.  Here are a few observations I have made in my life and these are some points I make in my talks.  I hope you do not take this as a personal affront, however, you will interpret it in whichever way you desire to see it... That I can not help.


1.)We use our experiences to validate our own beliefs or another way of saying it is we perceive what we believe - Lets say I believe I am fat and ugly and unworthy of love.  If someone says that my sister is beautiful while I'm standing right next to her and that person does not pay me a compliment, I may interpret their lack of my acknowledgment as a slap in the face and validation for my negative self perception.  I can not know what that person's thoughts are or what their heart feels.  Perhaps the person is just shy and more at ease with my sister.  He may feel that I'm the most beautiful woman in the world but lacks the courage to say it. Therefore I will interpret these actions to suit my own self concept.    

2.)Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. -  If something stated in here makes you feel uneasy, please check yourself to see what it is that makes you feel that way.  I have found from my experience that when I feel threatened, it is because someone has pointed out something that I subconsciously perceive as a weakness of mine.  

3.)We can only give out what we have - If I have a handful of daisies, I can only give you a daisy; I can not give you a rose.  Similarly, if I am holding a lot of pain, fear and anger, that is what I will have to give.  If all I hold is fear, anger and pain, I will have no love and compassion to share.  Your posts speak to me of anger (even rage) and it seems to me you are reading something that is not there... this may be by choice in order to create conflict within a thread that you do not agree with or understand.

4.)Whatever we give out increases in us - Similar to the last statement, if all I give is pain, fear and anger, those emotions will increase in me.  I will therby create more pain, anger and fear through my actions.  We all have some degree of love within us, this is our God Nature.  If I give out love, that will increase in me and I will be less likely to believe the world is against me.  

5.) When we pass judgment on another, it is because someone is holding up a mirror to us which we believe reflects our weaknesses - I used to be about 60 lbs overweight.  I would JUDGE women according to their bodies in 2 ways.  If the woman was more slender than me, I would place her up on a pedestal and compare myself to her.   I would be subconsciously putting myself down in comparison.  Women who were heavier than myself, I would tear to shreds in my mind in order to elevate my own feelings of self worth.  In both instances, I was condemning myself and self-attacking.  Both were showing me the part of myself that I so desperately was trying to dissociate, my association with my perceived flawed body (my perceived weakness.)



This discussion is not bashing anyone.  We are all people with spiritual pasts and spiritual experiences.  We are all spiritual and sexual beings and unfortunately, many of us have been burned by the church so we are talking out in the open about the pain, observations and associations that we have obtained through our individual and collective experience.  If this threatens your point of view, please read threads where you will have better peace of mind and leave us to have an intellectual discussion about spirituality and sexuality as we see it and as it pertains to our lives.  

If you wish to participate in the discussion in a constructive way, please share with us you views on how you see the role of sexuality and how it relates to your spiritual understanding.

Peace,
Kerri

 

 

[G3MM4]

quote:Originally posted by Mystic Cloud

I think it would be very healthy for many to have 2-3 weeks
of complete celibacy as it really changes your viewpoint of
the whole thing. And no you do not get more horny or an intensified sexual drive. It is quite the opposite, it actually
reduces.

I have to disagree with this because i haven't had sex with a partner for about five years. I made that decision myself, to prove to myself that i could do without sex. This came after being sexually active far more than what was good for me. There is more to it than that but I won't go into details.

Now, I don't find it difficult to abstain from sex with a partner, as long as I please myself occasionally. Having said that, I am capable of being completely celibate for weeks at a time, and have done so at times in the past. But this doesn't increase my energy levels in anyway. I still feel tired and weak, no matter whether I masturbate or not.

This could vary from person to person, but I find that if I don't masturbate from time to time, I actually get a stronger sex drive. (I'm lucky enough to have more than enough willpower to abstain from sex with a partner.) When this happens I get increased sexual activity (masturbation), much like short bursts of sexual activity, i.e doing it two or three times a week instead of my normal couple of times a month.

I hope you made some sense of what I've said above.

quote:But if we truely do choose our parents, then every pregnacy weather the child is concieved in a solid loving marriage or up a back alley (pun intended ) behined a club on a saturday night, (what a beutiful picture im painting lol) the soul of that person chose their own circumstaces and birth parents to siute their own needs, so I would guess pretty every act of penetrative sex must have a place in the grand design of things.

I think we do choose our own parents and our experiences/circumstances while we are preparing to be reborn. I've come to this conclusion after reading some good books written by people who have died and then came back, because they hadn't accomplished their goals.

If you wish to know the titles of these books, please PM me and I'll be happy to oblige.

And yes, again, it's cause and effect. if you must insist on having sex, then you could expect the possibility of falling pregnant as a result. I'm sure they taught you guys that in
Sex Ed. []

[James S]

I'm in a similar situation G3MM4.
In my case though it is due to a condition my wife has been suffering that has prevented us from having sex for the past 4 years.
During this time we've gotten married, and are living a very happy life together.

It was a question of do I allow my need for sex to become more important than love? I answered no.

I do however, like you, seek relief periodically, but this I feel as you would describe as increased sexual activity, I might describe as increased sexual tension. A while back I read an excellent book on meditation and stress reduction techniques, and the author's recommendation for the best cure for sexual tension is a good orgasm.

Well that's one bit of sage advise I'm not about to argue with! []

I don't feel that my sexuality is suffering at all because of this issue, as I am neither going off looking for women of negotiable affection to sort this out, nor am I repressing my sexuality in any way. I also do not believe I am interrupting my energy flow or causing any problems with my energy body. I have an abundance of energy available, and that energy I am learning to channel through my heart centre for healing. I have experienced energy increases both with and without sex, so I feel that the energy side of things is what you make of it yourself.

I can see that there is a very definite link between sexuality and spirituality, and that is very simply  - LOVE!

Love is the one key element that I believe is crucial to both. Sexuality without love is likely to lead to perversion and debauchery, and spirituality without love is...well...NOT spirituality. Probably Dogma would be the best description.

Regards,
James.

[G3MM4]

quote:Originally posted by James S

I'm in a similar situation G3MM4.
In my case though it is due to a condition my wife has been suffering that has prevented us from having sex for the past 4 years.
During this time we've gotten married, and are living a very happy life together.

It was a question of do I allow my need for sex to become more important than love? I answered no.

I do however, like you, seek relief periodically, but this I feel as you would describe as increased sexual activity, I might describe as increased sexual tension. A while back I read an excellent book on meditation and stress reduction techniques, and the author's recommendation for the best cure for sexual tension is a good orgasm.

Well that's one bit of sage advise I'm not about to argue with! []

I don't feel that my sexuality is suffering at all because of this issue, as I am neither going off looking for women of negotiable affection to sort this out, nor am I repressing my sexuality in any way. I also do not believe I am interrupting my energy flow or causing any problems with my energy body. I have an abundance of energy available, and that energy I am learning to channel through my heart centre for healing. I have experienced energy increases both with and without sex, so I feel that the energy side of things is what you make of it yourself.

I can see that there is a very definite link between sexuality and spirituality, and that is very simply  - LOVE!

Love is the one key element that I believe is crucial to both. Sexuality without love is likely to lead to perversion and debauchery, and spirituality without love is...well...NOT spirituality. Probably Dogma would be the best description.

Regards,
James.

Hmmm... you could be right in that I should describe it as sexual tension.... I'm not going to argue with that. []

You say you have experienced energy increases with or without sex... I haven't had an energy increase in a very long time. My energy levels aren't very high at all.

But I agree with your reasoning about the link between sexuality ans spirituality.

[Tayesin]

Wisp,
How do I put this Lovingly ?  Can any of us help you to see beyond the very confined, chosen, belief system you have ?  Many of us on this thread would gladly and lovingly help you to open your perceptions here.

No one is saying you are wrong in having these beliefs..although i am sure some would like to know HOW you have come to your conclusions about religion bashing.  Just reposting sections of posts does not constitute an answer for how you arrived at your conclusions.  Also, no one has attacked you personally, yet you have done so without reservation, with complete judgemental attitude and without knowing the facts of an individuals history and experience.  

This needs to be said more basically I think.  No one has bashed religion.  You perceive it as if someone has.  No one else here does.  The problem therefore must be with your own perceptions.

This also tells you that you do have certain issues to deal with if you are having these reactions.  The same is true for all of us when we have strong reactions to things... the difference is many of us will delve into that feeling and learn what the issue is we are carrying in order to heal and move through it.

Only facts have been used to illustrate certain points in this discussion so far.  Your chosen religion HAS had a history of bloodshed, and not in defence of itself. Many times in it's infancy were people 'converted at the Sword', a historical fact even the churches would not disagree with.  So why do you see the inclusion of these facts as Bashing ?

Many people have fundamental religious beliefs, that much is very normal.  Most religionists will try to force their beliefs onto others because they have been led to believe that it us their duty to do so.  And in so doing they will only argue or discuss from the position of their chosen belief, in this case christianity.

Dear sister, there are many more belief systems that have been around far longer than your chosen christianity.  Not all can be wrong, in fact most do have a Gem at their core..christianity being one of those.

I have just been informed that you will not see what is written here in the way it is meant...so I am wasting my time and energy.

Love Always.

[wisp]

Lighthouse,
The funny thing is I was trying to contribute to your thread because I felt for you. And yes, I know about the being burned by the church thing.I've been around a few who has gone(literally) through the same thing.I've not seen anyone pull out of it.

A good rule that has never failed me: Never take advise from someone who has failed at what their teaching.

[kiauma]

quote:I haven't had an energy increase in a very long time. My energy levels aren't very high at all.

I suggestd reading 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle; gives very good advice on getting out of your head and reapportioning consciousness.  The energy increase should be automatic - I found it so.  []

[boydster]

quote:Originally posted by Lighthouse
In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college.  I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page.  Since then, I have grown Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33.  So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature.  Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path [B)].

Kerri

Kerri,

This last paragraph is one of the most interesting and relevant in my opinion. Others here have mentioned, in many different ways, that it's the motive that matters. And I agree completely.

You indicate here a growing, burgeoning, almost aching desire for higher understanding and union with "the ALL" (something more). It seems like torture when you are going through years of it, but it's a really good sign. Mystical writers have written quite a bit about this. I would liken it to the gradual formation of a powerful magnet in ones heart through all that yearning and pining for the Beloved. And that magnet when sustained long enough cannot fail to grow and succeed at attracting the Beloved (God, signified as one's Higher Self as well as in the soul & Higher Self of ones mate).

My point is that this formation of the magnet of the heart appears as an overlay or tint to everything the soul does, but especially with respect to interactions with others. Love blossoms and threatens to overwhelm you at times. And under these conditions sexual activity is not just OK, it is hallowed, especially in the eyes of God.

It is literally and figuratively, God loving God.

My 2 cents[]

[jilola]

Wisp:

quote:I did contribute to the thread. If it hadn't turned into a bashing against religion it may have had some meaning, now it has no meaning what so ever.

I offer my apologies. You have indeed contributed constructively to the thread. I forgot the post you made on the first page.

I still don't see where the bashing is.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Tayesin]

Hi All,

Sexual energy, is that really the right description ?  Isn't it the energy of the base chakra that we are feeling ?  And don't we usually perceive or relate to it as a sexual urge ?  A Hunger ?

Until two months ago I had not been with a sexual partner for eight years.  It was my choice to do so as I wanted to concentrate on raising my little (at the time) daughter.  I learned a lot about me and how to apply this energy for other uses.  By focusing attention on the area where I could feel the energy,  I could then draw it up through my body.  Initial experiments were to see if I could warm myself with it, and I could.

Next I tried using the energy as a tool in healing to increase the power...the base chakra is the seat of the Soul within the human body, and it is where the Kundalini resides.. usually untapped.  That also worked well.  Now I use it for various things, physical and non.  You should see how aura-readers react when you 'play' with your inner power, LOL.

About the choices of Lusting or not.  They are only choices.  The only one who is placing value judgements on them is us.  Once again it needs to be as Adept said many posts ago, about doing what feels right to us.  Notice that does not say, doing what feels good to us.  Although sometimes they are the same thing.

Everyone's energy runs a little differently, according to whatever we are doing and working on..consciously or not.  So there are bound to be people who are having positive experiences from abstaining and those who aren't.  The past six months has been a time of rapid energy growth all over and it effects us all a little differently too.  

And lastly..... Sex is not bad.  Lust is not bad.  Love is not bad.  Is it even possible for anything you could do in the physical body to have such a profound effect as to actually harm the immense Spiritual Being that you really are ?  I do not think so.  

Let's put it in perspective... imagine an energetic consciousness...a light that is aware,  and it wants to have certain experiences as they become available.  It makes it's arrangements for a small portion of itself to enter a world to experience an earth-series of lives.  The body it is sending the small portion to is so tiny in comparison to the small portion (soul) going in.  And that small portion is tiny in comparison to the aware light (Higher-Self)....

So, perhaps the only effects of your choices here are Local and confined to what you want to use in this series of lives.

I got off-topic again.

Love Always. []

[boydster]

quote:Originally posted by Tayesin


Let's put it in perspective... imagine an energetic consciousness...a light that is aware,  and it wants to have certain experiences as they become available.  It makes it's arrangements for a small portion of itself to enter a world to experience an earth-series of lives.  The body it is sending the small portion to is so tiny in comparison to the small portion (soul) going in.  And that small portion is tiny in comparison to the aware light (Higher-Self)....

So, perhaps the only effects of your choices here are Local and confined to what you want to use in this series of lives.

Tayesin,

Lotsa good ideas here. I think we are responsible for our use of energy, kind of like the responsibility we have for how we use our income (money) down here. My instinct is that there is some kind of accounting.

After a soul has realized to some extent the name of the game, which is that mastering freewill, choice and union with the goals of the higher self is the point of us being here, then comes the time when we realize with a certain bitterness, all the momentum we have built from activities and choices which are counter to this goal. And we must put our shoulder to the wheel of opposing this momentum and pushing things in the direction which we are now enamored with....

It seems like a matter of energy, accounting and momentums which we as souls aborning in matter are engaged in.

[jilola]

Boydster:[(b]

quote: I think we are responsible for our use of energy,

we are always responsible for every single thing we do. Personally and in our faces.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[G3MM4]

quote:I suggestd reading 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle; gives very good advice on getting out of your head and reapportioning consciousness.  The energy increase should be automatic - I found it so.  []

Thanks for the suggestion, I will get the book soon.

[boydster]

quote:Originally posted by jilola

Boydster:[(b]

quote: I think we are responsible for our use of energy,

we are always responsible for every single thing we do. Personally and in our faces.

2cents & L&L
jouni

Yes, and I guess I'm positing this [our decisions about our use of energy] as being at the core of the various ideas people have of "right" and "wrong".

It helps me see things a little more clearly and (hopefully) avoid being condemnatory towards others.

[Adept_of_Light]

Hello again Kerri,

quote:
I think (and feel free to correct me if this does not make sense) that what you mean by saying that when sexuality is worked on esoterically, this is ther further evolution of spirit desiring the greater expression in that area of the individual's experience.  

To engage in sexual esoteric work is to master the accumulation and then transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy. One who engages in such work is not seeking a greater expression in that individual experience, but rather one is seeking advanced goals stemming from this type of experience which is the raising of the kundalini. Raising the kundalini ***NATURALLY***, *SAFELY* & repeatedly leads to the perfection of the self which brings our spirit closer to union with its other half (the divine self) which once united results in permanent Enlightenment which is the experience of everything and NOT *a* mere individual experience.

quote:
Therefore (for lack of a better word) lustful sex, driven by pure physical desire can be hurtful because the individual may subconsciously be seeking the higher experiences yet is not yet capable of fully experiencing it.

Yes that is mostly correct. As I believe I said in a previous post, a simple observation of physical sex shows two bodies attempting to unite into a single one, but in the end this is never achieved (the bodies always end up eventually separated) because typical physical sex is a very poor attempt at emulating what we subconsciously want - a divine union of our spirit with our other divine half - our higher self.

quote:
This may be because of their own barriers and need for a further and deeper understanding of themselves as a spiritual being inhibit their ability to experience the higher levels of the sexual experience.

There are many, many barriers before proper execution of sexual alchemy can be properly performed. A few are:
Inner barriers: Insufficient inner development of the Self and its character, karmic debt, lack of mental clarity resulting in ignorance of truth and of seeing objective truth, under developed energy body.  External barriers: Lack of right instruction , lack of a qualified guru or high level spiritual teacher to oversee when student is ready to perform the work safely.

quote:
I also imagine this would require a partner who is also on the path and in search of the greater sexual/spiritual experience.  Do you feel both partners must be conscious that the sexual act can be a vehicle for experiencing the Divine in order for them to share the Divine experience?

The work of sexual alchemy is inner individual work and so does not require a partner, but there do exist practices that allow to work with a partner. In such a case, it is important the partner is properly educated in the methods, and has the same spiritual desires.

We experience the Divine all the time, in fact, at no time do we NOT experience the divine, for all that exists is a manifestation of the Divine. Though I believe in the context you wrote you meant higher energy/spiritual experiences.  Alchemical sexual practices with a partner involve the exchange of chakral energies by sending these via specific energy pathways and eventually through interconnecting points (such as sexual organs) into the energy bodies of your partner. The success of such rituals and the quality of the experience will depend on the abilities and development of the two individuals at every level (physical, energetic, emotional and mental).

quote:
What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine?  Is this still egocentric?  I'm not asking a rhetorical question...  I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this,  because it is something that is a bit confusing to me.  If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?

No. There are good desires and bad desires. To paraphrase Buddhist teachings, desires which lead to greater attachment and separation of the Self from the greater reality are bad desires (e.g. materialistic desires, lustful desires, etc). The opposite of such desires are the desires that lead to spiritual liberation (enlightenment). Desires who have this as their ultimate goal are noble and pure desires. But it is not always so black and white. For example, to engage in spiritual studies so that you may understand how to become enlightened is a very noble type of desire; however, excessive study can also become an impediment to attaining enlightenment, for if all one does is read and study hoards of spiritual books, in actual fact one is doing nothing practical to work toward enlightenment and it will never be reached by merely reading books. So the degree of the desire is also important and constant self-evaluation, clear minded rationality and being radically truthful with yourself are fundamental requirements on the way to *achieving* enlightenment. That said, let me clear up right now that I am quite guilty of the above (too much study, not enough practice) which makes me sound experienced, but in actual fact, I am only somewhat knowledgeable which is really of little worth by comparison.

quote:
I agree to a certain extent yet I believe there comes a point where through an individual's evolution, we outgrow the organized structure and need to forge our own way. I agree that sex can be like a knife, it can benefit one or it can hurt one.  In fact, i can see this through the evolution of my own sexual experiences.  I feel that now, I am reaching a point where my spiritual evolution is pushing me to seek the greater experience in all aspects of my life.  My spiritual growth is directly in line with my work so that is all taken care of and my spiritual growth supports my work (I'm a Motivational Speaker/Writer)the sexual experience seems to be the main area that is lagging.  

Yes, organized group spirituality has the goal of aiding those who are not yet mature enough to ascend the path on their own. While you may not go to a church, you are in this spiritual community of sorts as I am. We have traded one organized form of spirituality for another, though hopefully a better one for *US*. I believe one of the keys to working on our own path is to place minimal dependence of our progress externally. So while I am here (once in a while) with you and others, I recognize that most of my growth must come from personal work and not spending hours posting on these boards exchanging opinions, help and other information, though sometimes, that too is necessary. I personally find enjoyment as you do motivating others, but it is also something that I can easily get carried away with, so after this post, I will probably hold back for a while

quote:
In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college.  I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page.  Since then, I have grown Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33.

As the cliche goes, if there is one constant, it is change. This is actually an esoteric maxim. Nothing physical is permanent, everything vibrates, and nothing stays the same.  What is important for us individually, is that our changes lead to us becoming more positive and increase our emotional, intellectual and spiritual growth.

quote:
So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature.  Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path.

As I've explained before, spiritual union leading to true and permanent happiness is not to be acquired by the physical union between two imperfect human beings. Two wrongs don't make a right! [] This is of course far easier to say than to live with. In addition, the practice of sexual alchemy as I've explained above does not require a partner, so you might want to reconsider the shifting of the blame externally to your partner's lack of interest. Having said that, his disinterest is surely in part due to his ignorance of the subject matter. Orgasms achieved through sexual alchemy are far superior in quality and states of bliss than mere genital orgasms. So perhaps increasing yours and then his education on the subject matter might stimulate more interest, though be very careful to not try to change or push your partner into this stuff but rather let him come to his own conclusions and understanding of HIS needs. Also, using some humour might not be a bad idea. What average guy in his right mind wouldn't want to take part in "the practice" of sexual acts every other day? Maybe you can start out with some simple exercises in tantric sex whereby he can increase his sexual performance and levels of genital orgasm. If he sees that your methods improve his sexual life, perhaps he will keep on listening to your instructions and slowly progress to higher stages of sexual alchemy.

In addition though, and if I may, I would suggest you take some time for yourself and engage in very deep self-analysis with the goal of identifying the TRUE root causes of the dissatisfaction you have expressed. Is your partner really to blame for your lack of happiness? So long as our spiritual progress is dependant on things external to us, we may very well continue to be repeatedly disappointed.

My best wishes to you Kerri,

Adept of Light