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the law of nature and no god

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BoscosFriend

i had a deep realization recently that i would like to share. the post may be long but please read it. i find it pretty amazing.
First i will make this statement: Everything exists. nothing can be excluded, there isn't anything that cannot exist, simply because everything exists. Simple logic. Get it?
OK now, some people, well most it seems believe in a god that exists outside of our reality. A being that created everything.
So tell me, how can something exist outside of everything? if something exists weather inside, outside or whatever side of everything, its still part of everything. it would be like having ten marbles and then placing all ten in a jar, and then saying "all ten marbles in this jar represent everything that exists, but there is still one on the outside of the jar." that would be ridiculous, it just doesn't make sense.
OK, so it is impossible for anything to exist outside of everything. So if god exists, he has to exist within everything and since he would exists within everything he would also be subject to the law of nature (cause and effect). I'll explain this law. Everything that exists, exists because of previous causes.
Lets say a wooden chair, what is this cause if this chair? we can say a tree, the tree caused the chair. so what caused the tree? sun, rain, seed, earth. so all those causes caused the tree which caused the chair which causes comfort when i sit on it,which causes a scuff on the floor and on and on. we can also go back further and ask what caused the sun, the rain, the earth, the seed and keep going and going for infinity it will never end. you will just keep going with the causes until it connected all of existence. everything is connected by this law. so, if god exists within everything, and nothing can exist without a cause, then god is subject to the law of cause and effect. so god would have to have a cause in order to exist. just like everything else. and you see how everything is connected through this law. everything is the cause of everything. what it comes down to is that i exist because everything else exist and everything exist because i exist. same with you, same with a rock a tree and god. god is no different than a rock. there is no god entity that created everything, instead the only thing you can say god is, is everything. every object, thought and action is like a brick holding together an infinite wall. the wall being god, every brick a part of god.
Wait! there is more.
Going back to the wooden chair. So there is this chair that was made from a tree, this tree no longer exists in the forest.
But it still does exist, only in the form of a chair. When the chair breaks down and decomposes, the chair no longer exist in the form of a chair but in the form of whatever a decomposing chair turns into. so the tree never stops existing, only changes forms. same with the chair, it will always exist. see even before the chair existed it existed within the tree. before the tree grew it existed in the form of a seed, the chair existed in the seed also. and remember how everything is connected through cause and effect? i am the cause of the chair, just like the tree is, just not in such a direct way. but this means that i exist in the chair and the chair exists within me.
everything is connected, we all exist within each other. there is no separation. separation is an illusion created by the ego. we have the false idea that we are separate beings. there is no separate anything. all objects, life, thoughts, words, actions, everything is the same. i dint want to say all is one, i think that is incorrect, it seems that if there is one, then there can be two. i think all is nothing is more fitting or all is infinity, which ever you like. there is no difference.

Tyciol

While your logical pursuit of atheism is great, it has some flaws. First off, I don't know anything that claims God exists outside of everything, because in the case of any that people talk about, he/she has somehow interacted with our form of reality in some way, otherwise we wouldn't know about it now would we? All 'god' is supposed to do is exist in a higher form of reality outside of ours.

Also, I'm wondering where you get your 'everything exists' logic. I'm sure I could make something up, and the only place it would exit would be as a thought in my mind, not as a real existing thing in physical actuality. I'm assuming that's how you're measuring reality or the god argument wouldn't work too well.

BoscosFriend

hello tyciol.

QuoteFirst off, I don't know anything that claims God exists outside of everything, because in the case of any that people talk about, he/she has somehow interacted with our form of reality in some way, otherwise we wouldn't know about it now would we? All 'god' is supposed to do is exist in a higher form of reality outside of ours.


Your last statement is what I'm talking about. there is no outside ours. no outside anything. how can there be an outside ours? or inside?


QuoteAlso, I'm wondering where you get your 'everything exists' logic. I'm sure I could make something up, and the only place it would exit would be as a thought in my mind, not as a real existing thing in physical actuality. I'm assuming that's how you're measuring reality or the god argument wouldn't work too well.

OK lets say in all of reality only one planet existed, and that was it, nothing more. the phrase "everything exists" would still be true. because one planet is all that exists. so you see purple and pink spotted monkeys do not necessarily have to exist (although its possible that they could) in order for everything to exist.
when i talk of everything existing i do not exclude thought and actions, they cannot be excluded from the law of cause and effect. tell me how the god argument wouldn't work well, now that you know that i am including thoughts and actions as being part of existence. all I'm trying to do is show the dependent nature of reality. things cannot exist of there own accord. everything depends on everything else in order to exist.  there is no separation, that is just illusion. no difference between a tree and a chair, the moon and the ocean. there isn't any one thing.

Psan

Well, you seem to be on the right track.
But you didn't define your terms, so everyone here would interpret your logic as he pleases.... no use you see.
You should define these terms precisely and solidify them - god, existence, ego, everything, separation and other key words, before you even start.

BoscosFriend

god- in this argument I'm talking of the idea of a god that exist as its own separate entity that created everything and watches over.

existence- everything, objects,thoughts,actions,space. everything

ego- the Inness we feel as humans. idea of the self being its own separate thing.

everything- same as existence

separation- the idea that we are separate beings. everything being separate from everything.

hope this helps.

CaCoDeMoN

But what about idea of christian God as a thoughtform, only claiming to be all powerful?
MEAT=MURDER.

data

BoscosFriend,

When you say god exists separate from our reality, do you mean from this superverse or our reality, as in the reality we share?

I agree that god does not exist separate from the superverse - all that there is - everything. However, god can exist in a higher 'reality' just like ultraviolet can live in a higher reality from infrared, yet both coexist in the same space.

Like this, god can exist in a reality that is higher than ours, yet is a part of the same superverse. However, you are quite right, something cannot exist outside everything. Yet, god can exist as a part of everything, but in a different reality.

Now, why should god know every thought, action? If God is the highest reality and all realities are present within his reality, then he can see all the realities because of his dimensional vantage.

To explain this, in 3D space we can only perceive 3 dimensions. If we were in 4D space we would perceive the 4th extra dimension as well as the 3 dimensions of space. In 5D space, we would perceive the 4th and 5th extra dimensions as well as the 3 dimensions of space. And so on.

Therefore if god exists as the final dimension, then he can percieve his dimension and all dimensions below it. What is a single moment for god is all of eternity for the lower dimensions. This is why they say god knows all, see's all.

greatoutdoors

BoscosFriend,

You're talking about concepts I've been thinking about for awhile. I agree that what you refer to as God cannot exist outside of "everything," but it wouldn't have to. It is unquestionable that "everything" swims in a universal sea of energy. Chakras and auras are just two examples of the visibility of this energy. My point of debate is whether that energy is "God," or whether it is simply another component of "everything." I just made a post on another thread that sort of relates to this.

You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God through the use of your example, but if God does exist, he/she/it will be right here in the middle of us, not outside "everything."

Of course, that brings up another little conundrum -- once we have imagined as big an "everything" as possible, what caused that to come into being? Are we just one small bit of a really huge "everything" that we can't even begin to imagine? That brings up my favorite example: to an earthworm, for instance, does outer space exist? Do they perceive our solar system even, or other galaxies?

Man, it would be lovely to have some real answers!  :?

Ben K

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

Nuvo22

Some good ideas and some decent discussion on this topic going on. I'll be starting a topic of my own soon that will address some of the issues above, such as God,  Ego, Constructs, and the connectedness of the universe.  I'll likely call it "God Vs. Human belief".  Perhaps the one power that even a God can't contend with is human belief.  The power of our imagination, our creativity, seems to be the closest thing to a "spark of the divine" that we have.

Creativity is something that we admire, cherish, and build upon as a species. Anytime we see seagulls using rocks to smash open clam shells or monkeys using sticks as primitive tools, we're both inspired and overwhelmed with joy at the "cuteness" of it all.  It makes us truly connect and feel at home on our planet to see that we're not the only animal that can be so creative and cunning. And we also see how positive and beautiful creativity can be coupled with pure intention IE: The seagull simply wanting to eat thus using the rock.

Scientists in laboratories have studied people using electronic equipment and have been able to artificially induce a feeling of "spiritual awakening" in subjects using electrodes to stimulate the right temporal lobe of the brain. They've also found that this section of the brain is responsible for creativity and artistic ability.
At a superficial glance this may seem to indicate that all spiritual phenomenon is simply a biological function and has no spiritual merit. On the contrary, it is unknown to scientists just how or why people will have spiritual intuitions and flashes of premonition that saves and changes lives-  all they know is that using equipment they've found the part of the brain that seems to respond to psychic phenomenon. Well done.

In closing I just wanted to respond to the last post suggesting that God is a construct.  I believe many people have constructed many faces and many ideas to label the creative force of the universe/and all of it's dimensions (ones we are not aware of while in the physical plane), however, just because people have such a hard life filled with insecurity that the only stability they can find is to lean towards dichotomy of "right and wrong"  "black and white" thinking,  then so be it. If they need to perceive their inspiration as being "all things good" then let them. That's just their present state of awareness and it isn't the most effective way to live a life free of neurosis, however it IS simply the stage that they are at naturally and in time we all grow to be less neurotic.


God bless. For what it's worth to you.

AstralSailor

Quote from: BoscosFriendi had a deep realization recently that i would like to share. the post may be long but please read it. i find it pretty amazing.
First i will make this statement: Everything exists. nothing can be excluded, there isn't anything that cannot exist, simply because everything exists. Simple logic. Get it?
OK now, some people, well most it seems believe in a god that exists outside of our reality. A being that created everything.
So tell me, how can something exist outside of everything? if something exists weather inside, outside or whatever side of everything, its still part of everything. it would be like having ten marbles and then placing all ten in a jar, and then saying "all ten marbles in this jar represent everything that exists, but there is still one on the outside of the jar." that would be ridiculous, it just doesn't make sense.
OK, so it is impossible for anything to exist outside of everything. So if god exists, he has to exist within everything and since he would exists within everything he would also be subject to the law of nature (cause and effect). I'll explain this law. Everything that exists, exists because of previous causes.
Lets say a wooden chair, what is this cause if this chair? we can say a tree, the tree caused the chair. so what caused the tree? sun, rain, seed, earth. so all those causes caused the tree which caused the chair which causes comfort when i sit on it,which causes a scuff on the floor and on and on. we can also go back further and ask what caused the sun, the rain, the earth, the seed and keep going and going for infinity it will never end. you will just keep going with the causes until it connected all of existence. everything is connected by this law. so, if god exists within everything, and nothing can exist without a cause, then god is subject to the law of cause and effect. so god would have to have a cause in order to exist. just like everything else. and you see how everything is connected through this law. everything is the cause of everything. what it comes down to is that i exist because everything else exist and everything exist because i exist. same with you, same with a rock a tree and god. god is no different than a rock. there is no god entity that created everything, instead the only thing you can say god is, is everything. every object, thought and action is like a brick holding together an infinite wall. the wall being god, every brick a part of god.
Wait! there is more.
Going back to the wooden chair. So there is this chair that was made from a tree, this tree no longer exists in the forest.
But it still does exist, only in the form of a chair. When the chair breaks down and decomposes, the chair no longer exist in the form of a chair but in the form of whatever a decomposing chair turns into. so the tree never stops existing, only changes forms. same with the chair, it will always exist. see even before the chair existed it existed within the tree. before the tree grew it existed in the form of a seed, the chair existed in the seed also. and remember how everything is connected through cause and effect? i am the cause of the chair, just like the tree is, just not in such a direct way. but this means that i exist in the chair and the chair exists within me.
everything is connected, we all exist within each other. there is no separation. separation is an illusion created by the ego. we have the false idea that we are separate beings. there is no separate anything. all objects, life, thoughts, words, actions, everything is the same. i dint want to say all is one, i think that is incorrect, it seems that if there is one, then there can be two. i think all is nothing is more fitting or all is infinity, which ever you like. there is no difference.


Yes we all exist within each other.. But when it comes to that god does not exist i can not agree.. The thing is that it is not outside everything it is on the other planes (etc astral planes) Its just like when you have a wooden board and place a Glass board on top of it the Glass board will be transparent (like the astral and other planes) further more i do not believe that god is a person its alot more like in star wars "the force"
And we are a part of the force just like the force is a part of us...
So in a way we are all the sons and doughters of god (the force)
(I believe that's where people mistake Jesus he was the son of god just like we are all the sons and doughters of god "the force")
P.S no i am not a christian or take more part of any organized religion... well if any i guess I'm a Muslim but i don't pray to much.. )
What i like to call my self is Alchemist :)

BoscosFriend

QuoteYes we all exist within each other.. But when it comes to that god does not exist i can not agree.. The thing is that it is not outside everything it is on the other planes (etc astral planes) Its just like when you have a wooden board and place a Glass board on top of it the Glass board will be transparent (like the astral and other planes) further more i do not believe that god is a person its alto more like in star wars "the force"
And we are a part of the force just like the force is a part of us...

when i say god does not exist i mean an idol form of god. like a separate existing entity that created all. even if some godly being in another plane created our existence it still wouldn't make any difference. we all exist within each other, which you agree with, so that being which created our existence exists within us and we exist within it. he just becomes another cause in the chain reaction, no different than a grain of sand or a thought.
to me the only thing that can be called god is the connecting web of depend ant existence. but i would rather not call it god because the term is too misleading. we can call it lagalabooboo, it doesn't make any difference anyway. its all just words.

data

BoscosFriend, I do understand what you are saying. It is widely held among spiritualists that we are god. However, as much as that it is true at the most profound level of reality, at our observer-dependent reality level, it is not true. So 'god' does indeed reside out of our domain of reality.

The Hindu's addressed this problem in identifying god, by calling him the supreme personality. When they say become one with all, it really means transform your personality to the highest state.

I have always wondered, that once you merge with the one, wouldn't it be logical, that you no longer have any individuality?

BoscosFriend

QuoteBoscosFriend, I do understand what you are saying. It is widely held among spiritualists that we are god. However, as much as that it is true at the most profound level of reality, at our observer-dependent reality level, it is not true. So 'god' does indeed reside out of our domain of reality.

The Hindu's addressed this problem in identifying god, by calling him the supreme personality. When they say become one with all, it really means transform your personality to the highest state.

are you saying that when we transform our personality to the highest state we become one with all, but because of our current level of reality we are separate from all?
if this is what you are saying then i somewhat agree.  it isn't that our ignorance keeps us separate from all, its our ignorance that creates the illusion of being separate from all. the truth is we were never separate.


Quotegreatoutdoors:I agree that what you refer to as God cannot exist outside of "everything," but it wouldn't have to. It is unquestionable that "everything" swims in a universal sea of energy. Chakras and auras are just two examples of the visibility of this energy. My point of debate is whether that energy is "God," or whether it is simply another component of "everything." I just made a post on another thread that sort of relates to this.
hmmm, i dint know i ha vent seen auras. but i would regard it as just another component of everything, because everything is a component of everything. another link in the chain. but at the same time i guess you could call it god. i would have to think more on this. what is your opinion on it? i would be interested in your view.

QuoteYou can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God through the use of your example, but if God does exist, he/she/it will be right here in the middle of us, not outside "everything

I'm attempting to disprove the existence of an idol form of god. a single separate existing entity that created all.

QuoteOf course, that brings up another little conundrum -- once we have imagined as big an "everything" as possible, what caused that to come into being?
OK, so we imagined as big as possible. so now we wonder what caused that to come into being. this is confusing so bare with me.  OK, that which caused this to come into being is no different than this. since this is now in existence it becomes part of that and that apart of this. so really there is no this and that. actually i dont see the importance in knowing the exact causes of things. it would just be knowledge in the brain. maybe there is one original cause and maybe not. either way i doubt we would ever know, i don't think its all that important to know either. i kind think of it is like a circle.you cant find the beginning or end.

Ben K

Quote from: Nuvo22

In closing I just wanted to respond to the last post suggesting that God is a construct.  I believe many people have constructed many faces and many ideas to label the creative force of the universe/and all of it's dimensions (ones we are not aware of while in the physical plane), however, just because people have such a hard life filled with insecurity that the only stability they can find is to lean towards dichotomy of "right and wrong"  "black and white" thinking,  then so be it. If they need to perceive their inspiration as being "all things good" then let them. That's just their present state of awareness and it isn't the most effective way to live a life free of neurosis, however it IS simply the stage that they are at naturally and in time we all grow to be less neurotic.


God bless. For what it's worth to you.

I definitely agree with you. While some of us seem to have the ability to more or less fend for ourselves, some people have just seen to much and they need God in their lives. Im not suggesting that its wrong, Im simply stating the fact. When people ask me if I believe in God, I say yes. When people ask me if I believe in Allah, I say yes. This is not because Im an idiot its because these things DO exist in the form on constructs created by humans out of need. Like many an APer has confirmed, there are belief constructs for those that hold these beliefs. So God did not create us, we created HIM, and that does not make him "fake" in any sense of the word.
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

data

QuoteSo God did not create us, we created HIM, and that does not make him "fake" in any sense of the word.

Don't you just love philosophy! The greatest proof of god, is ontological, that is that your thought of god(what you call creation) is the proof of the existence of god. Remember, even before you existed as Ben, the thought of god had existed.

Bcosfriends proposition that god cannot exist outside of everything based on the logic that something cannot exist out of everything is in my opinion, logical. Yet, it also applies equally to you.

How could we create the concept of god, if the concept of god was not a part of everything? There were studies done on this and researchers found that god was a natural innate concept.

We can regress further into time, to the primal man, and explain how did he conceptualize god, or more importantly, language, morals, ethics, beliefs. In fact, this question can be expanded to encompass all thought. What is the source of all thought and all consciousness?

If consciousness is a part of everything, than it is only logical to say everything is conscious. That is what is universal consciousness and that is what is god.

There was never a creation. There was never a dissolution. This is the most fundamental laws of physics - energy cannot be created nor destroyed, just passed on from one form to the other.

So, you were not created and nor did you create anything. You just passed on from one form to the other. As you develop spiritually, your lower energetic thoughts are passing onto higher energetic thoughts. However, that is a paradox right? As it assumes you are creating higher thoughts from lower thoughts. So, where you are you getting the energy to create higher thoughts from?

I say, it is only logical that you can only get something out of nothing, if there is something in nothing. You can only project, if there is something to project to. Your astral consciousness exist independently of your physical body. It is only logical that there is an absolute consciousness. An absolute level of reality.

If you are a physical at a lower consciousness and an angel at a higher consciousness. What are you at absolute consciousness? How do you define yourself at absolute consciousness. These definitions by humans have been called god. Again, you can only define, if there is something to define.

Ben K

QuoteHow could we create the concept of god, if the concept of god was not a part of everything? There were studies done on this and researchers found that god was a natural innate concept.
IMO(and imo is probably the single most important word of this reply) god would have to be an innate concept. Your reasoning is a bit off my friend. First, we can "create" concepts of anything. I can sit down and create a concept that could change someones life. But consider this:

Man is the first animal to have the level of self-awareness and consciousness that we have. And nothing is a greater example of this than the awareness that we will die someday. Now, if you knew you were going to die, what would YOU think would happen after you passed? I think this is a question that has been asked millenia after millenia. And it still is being asked. Well, one can reason that you just die, you cease to exist. But i dont think this sat well with early man. The concept that you can just cease to exist might not even enter your mind. Just like we cannot comprehend say, what lies outside our universe, man could not comprehend what happened after we died.

So now comes the concept of the "afterlife". But this too puzzled early man, what would you DO when you die? Just walk around earth as a ghost? No, you went to heaven and sat in eternity in glorious euphoria at the right hand of "GOD". But did everyone go to heaven? If so, why not just run around raping women and killing people at leisure? Hell, why not kill yourself?

Well, early man knew this had to stop. So next came the concept of GOOD AND BAD. HEAVEN AND HELL. Different religions obviously have different names, but for the most part, excluding eastern religions(eastern folk always HAVE been smarter) the concept of heaven and hell plays a part in all religions.

QuoteWhat is the source of all thought and all consciousness?
Are you telling me GOD is the source of my thought and consciousness? What about that whole free will thing?

QuoteSo, you were not created and nor did you create anything. You just passed on from one form to the other. As you develop spiritually, your lower energetic thoughts are passing onto higher energetic thoughts. However, that is a paradox right? As it assumes you are creating higher thoughts from lower thoughts. So, where you are you getting the energy to create higher thoughts from?

Im sorry, I dont understand the whole concept of lower and higher energetic thoughts. Could you explain?

Quoteour astral consciousness exist independently of your physical body. It is only logical that there is an absolute consciousness. An absolute level of reality.

You are also wrong here. Your astral consciousness is not independent at all, everything is intertwined. Thats the whole concept of phasing, and is proof enough that this statement is true.

QuoteIf you are a physical at a lower consciousness and an angel at a higher consciousness. What are you at absolute consciousness? How do you define yourself at absolute consciousness. These definitions by humans have been called god. Again, you can only define, if there is something to define

There is nothing to define.

This is however a great argument and for that i thank you ;)
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

UniOne

There is but one thing to save us now... Unification....

I realize that now, with all of the questions on these boards... that I must answer all of humankind's questions on the issue of the divine...

Sorry for being spontaneous... but Unification is our final evolution, guys... our final step... once we wake up and take that journey... Then we'll get what the hell is going on...

For all of you... I hope you will reach the same understanding as I have thru these last few years... You may not think I'm right, but I know what it is everyone is seeking...

Answers... and results....

I hope one day I can deliver that to the entire world...

Ben K

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

data

As I said, isn't philosophy just great. A constant clash of ideaologies. Arguments, counter-arguments and counter-counter arguments. The truth about all philosophical discourse - you can never arrive at an objective truth. However, it stimulates the mind and galvanizes it into thinking laterally, and it is very important that we learn to analyse our ideas and test them constantly. It is my beleif that the truth will stand against all scrutiny and verify itself. Oh, and there is a truth.  You can test mine. I can test yours:

QuoteMan is the first animal to have the level of self-awareness and consciousness that we have. And nothing is a greater example of this than the awareness that we will die someday. Now, if you knew you were going to die, what would YOU think would happen after you passed? I think this is a question that has been asked millenia after millenia. And it still is being asked. Well, one can reason that you just die, you cease to exist. But i dont think this sat well with early man. The concept that you can just cease to exist might not even enter your mind. Just like we cannot comprehend say, what lies outside our universe, man could not comprehend what happened after we died.

Necessity is the mother of all invention they say. I can surmise what you are saying here as one of the popular atheist arguments, that god is a mental safety mechanism. I once was an advocate of this philosophy. However, upon analysis of this philosophy, I found some logical errors. If this was true, then how can atheists exist at all? If this is such an important aspect of our mental mark-up as the first primal human, then why are millions apparently immune to this?

I think it underlines a very important point. That is why a belief in god is not a necessity for survival.  Thus, the contention that god is a human construct to explain death or to give a purpose to life does not hold against reason.

Again, it is more important to consider the source of all language, belief and thought, rather just a belief in god. How did any of this arise? What is the underlying phenomena behind consciousness and can it be explained in physical terms? As soon as we begin to consider metaphysical origins of consciousnes, the 'hypothesis' of god becomes even more favorable.

QuoteAre you telling me GOD is the source of my thought and consciousness? What about that whole free will thing?

In philosophy, there are two types of freedom outlined; Positive freedom and negative freedom. Positive freedom is absolute freedom. Negative freedom is freedom within certain parameters. In any of the dualistic realities there is only negative freedom. That is you have freedom of will to act, but you don't have freedom in choosing the course your action takes. The action you take is based on even more parameters; your ego, your conditioning, your environment. So, there really is no absolute free will in dualistic realities. You have as much free will as the course a river takes before meeting with it's source again.

So, what I am saying the source of your thought and consciousness is a part of the universe. Everything is the source of something. If god is understood to be everything, then he is the source of your thoughts and consciusness. Just like the source of a river is the ocean. There is a source to your consciousness, isn't there, if you cannot accept god, then surely you can accept it is the universe?

Does it necessarily negate the existence of something, if it is a part of everything?

QuoteIm sorry, I dont understand the whole concept of lower and higher energetic thoughts. Could you explain?

I am presupposing an understanding of the vibrational spectrum of consciousness. That is the physical self, subtle(astral) self, higher self etc. The astral self is a higher energetic consciousness than the physical self. The thoughts of love are higher than the thoughts of hate and fear.

QuoteYou are also wrong here. Your astral consciousness is not independent at all, everything is intertwined. Thats the whole concept of phasing, and is proof enough that this statement is true.

Where was I 'wrong' last time? It is funny you say everything is interwined. Isn't that what I am saying about god? I could say we are interwined as well, but that does not mean I am not independent of you. You can only project to your astral self, if the astral self existed in the first place. You do not create an astral self everytime you project in the astral realm. Your astral self is always there. All you do is become conscious of it. Robert Bruce explained this quite well as the mind split effect in his book. Similarily, your higher self exists as a separate personality too. Nothing is being created.

In the dualistic worlds, everything exists independent of each other. There is one level of reality of non-dualism. That is at an absolute level of reality or consciousness. This is when you're truly interwined. This is God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe in astral realms?

QuoteThere is nothing to define.

Yes there is. If there a physical self, astral selfs, higher self, each higher in the vibrational spectrum of consciousness. Then there should be an end of this spectrum too? Just like at an absolute level of reality there is only one cause. You said everything existed interwined. The source of consciousness is that interwined/entangled state. It is only logical that everything has a primodial source. As soon as we understand consciousness to be subset from the physical, then we discover the source of the consciousness. The source must have consciousness, for consciousness to exist at all. Something does not come from nothing.

Ben K

I cant argue with someone who switches there stance every post :X
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

data

Hi Ben,

I probably did 'change my stance' although I am not aware of what I changed.  Such as is the nature of philosophical discourse. Subconscious internal dialog can sometimes manifest in your writing. However, to the best of my knowledge, I was arguing for the 'hypothesis' of god from the beginning and the source of consciousness and thought. I don't see that I have deviated from that stance.

However, I am open to error on my part. Please, do point out the inconsistency. However, it is bad debate practice, to make personal statements that you do not substantiate. It comes under ad-hominem fallacies. As soon as a debate is initiated, let it run it's course. Although, many times debates are clashes of ideologies and values, this should be done in a mature and intelligent manner. As both parties are debating not to uphold their positions, but to arrive at a common truth and/or understanding.

Ben K

data, i think i got you and uniforce sort of mixed up. My bad. Anyway, il try to keep this going, im having a good time and realize that this is only the spirit of debate and i mean no offense to anyone :)

Quote from: dataNecessity is the mother of all invention they say. I can surmise what you are saying here as one of the popular atheist arguments, that god is a mental safety mechanism. I once was an advocate of this philosophy. However, upon analysis of this philosophy, I found some logical errors. If this was true, then how can atheists exist at all? If this is such an important aspect of our mental mark-up as the first primal human, then why are millions apparently immune to this?

I never said he was a necessity.(At least i dont think so, if i did I must have been thinking off). God is simply a way man explained what he did not know. And now that we know more and more, less people believe in God. Its as simple as that.

QuoteI think it underlines a very important point. That is why a belief in god is not a necessity for survival.  Thus, the contention that god is a human construct to explain death or to give a purpose to life does not hold against reason.

Like I said, there is no necessity. Its what you choose to believe.

QuoteAgain, it is more important to consider the source of all language, belief and thought, rather just a belief in god. How did any of this arise? What is the underlying phenomena behind consciousness and can it be explained in physical terms? As soon as we begin to consider metaphysical origins of consciousnes, the 'hypothesis' of god becomes even more favorable.

When man realized he could manipulate his vocal chords to the degree of attaching meaning to them, language was invented. I think i saw Frank say something like he was talking to a being from a different physical reality or maybe a different planet or something while he was in the astral. The being told him that us humans were unique in that most other "intelligent beings" use telapathy. Belief and thought IMO are effects of evolution.

QuoteIn philosophy, there are two types of freedom outlined; Positive freedom and negative freedom. Positive freedom is absolute freedom. Negative freedom is freedom within certain parameters. In any of the dualistic realities there is only negative freedom. That is you have freedom of will to act, but you don't have freedom in choosing the course your action takes. The action you take is based on even more parameters; your ego, your conditioning, your environment. So, there really is no absolute free will in dualistic realities. You have as much free will as the course a river takes before meeting with it's source again.

So, what I am saying the source of your thought and consciousness is a part of the universe. Everything is the source of something. If god is understood to be everything, then he is the source of your thoughts and consciusness. Just like the source of a river is the ocean. There is a source to your consciousness, isn't there, if you cannot accept god, then surely you can accept it is the universe?
Ah, reminds me of an Aquinas argument :)

Why is it that thought must come from another being? Is it not possible that thought comes from within ourselves? That we have the power to think in abstract thoughts and decide the best possible outcome? That is an interesting argument however.

QuoteDoes it necessarily negate the existence of something, if it is a part of everything?

The only part your missing is the part of everything. Like a builder that builds a house and then leaves it to another family to reside in, God could have merely built us without any of himself in us. Saying that he is in everything is a circular argument.

QuoteI am presupposing an understanding of the vibrational spectrum of consciousness. That is the physical self, subtle(astral) self, higher self etc. The astral self is a higher energetic consciousness than the physical self. The thoughts of love are higher than the thoughts of hate and fear.

How can thoughts be higher than another? How can thoughts have direction at all? If by higher you mean morally correct, then I would answer with what is morally correct? Is it morally correct to kill? Is it morally correct to kill in the name of God? In the name of anything?

QuoteWhere was I 'wrong' last time? It is funny you say everything is interwined. Isn't that what I am saying about god?

You are, but the difference lies in the reality. There is no way to prove that God is in everything, but there is a way to prove that all reality is intertwined. Simply close your eyes and imagine your favorite place. Right then and there part of your consciousness was outside of your body, however small the percentage.

[quoteI could say we are interwined as well, but that does not mean I am not independent of you. You can only project to your astral self, if the astral self existed in the first place. You do not create an astral self everytime you project in the astral realm. Your astral self is always there. All you do is become conscious of it. Robert Bruce explained this quite well as the mind split effect in his book. Similarily, your higher self exists as a separate personality too. Nothing is being created.[/quote]

Actually, it is my belief that you DO create a copy of your astral self every time you project. The difference between my view and your view here is that i believe what you call your "astral self", I call consciousness. Therefore, all we do when we OBE is create a "copy" of your body and shift your consciousness, the only reason we create the copy in the first place is out of habit. You are used to having a body. You have had one your whole life.

QuoteIn the dualistic worlds, everything exists independent of each other. There is one level of reality of non-dualism. That is at an absolute level of reality or consciousness. This is when you're truly interwined. This is God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you believe in astral realms?

Then I must believe in non-dualism. I belive in astral realms, I also believe that all astral realms are intertwined and that all we need to do when we project is shift our awareness. when you are focused on a task at hand, you are 100% aware of the physical. When you are daydreaming, you might have, oh, 80-85% awareness of physical, your awareness is spread into the astral. All we do when we project is focus 100% on whatever "level"(or Focus Level, in phasing model terms) you wish to focus on.

Quote
QuoteThere is nothing to define.

Yes there is. If there a physical self, astral selfs, higher self, each higher in the vibrational spectrum of consciousness. Then there should be an end of this spectrum too? Just like at an absolute level of reality there is only one cause. You said everything existed interwined. The source of consciousness is that interwined/entangled state. It is only logical that everything has a primodial source. As soon as we understand consciousness to be subset from the physical, then we discover the source of the consciousness. The source must have consciousness, for consciousness to exist at all. Something does not come from nothing.

There is only 1 self. How you choose to experience yourself depends on your level of awareness. The source of consciousness is simply what could be called Focus Level 2, where we can think in abstract thoughts and choose what action to bring into place.

QuoteI probably did 'change my stance' although I am not aware of what I changed. Such as is the nature of philosophical discourse. Subconscious internal dialog can sometimes manifest in your writing. However, to the best of my knowledge, I was arguing for the 'hypothesis' of god from the beginning and the source of consciousness and thought. I don't see that I have deviated from that stance.

I was speaking of when you said "Your astral consciousness exist independently of your physical body" and then said "The source of consciousness is that interwined/entangled state"

But i suppose i can let it go. And I definitely would agree with this statement: "As both parties are debating not to uphold their positions, but to arrive at a common truth and/or understanding."

Cheers,

Ben
EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE

data

Quotedata, i think i got you and uniforce sort of mixed up. My bad. Anyway, il try to keep this going, im having a good time and realize that this is only the spirit of debate and i mean no offense to anyone

That's alright :)

QuoteI never said he was a necessity.(At least i dont think so, if i did I must have been thinking off). God is simply a way man explained what he did not know. And now that we know more and more, less people believe in God. Its as simple as that.

Again, necessity. For us to invent the concept of god to fill a vacuum(Again, once I was an advocate of this argument) However, the same logical errors are present as I illuminated above. If God is a necessity or a device of ignorance, then how can so many be immune to it?

You say because people are more knowledgeable today. I beg to differ. The subject of god is a metaphysical and consciousness one and consciousness still eludes scientists, let alone the masses, who remain oblivious to the most simplest truth of self. What has changed is the social ethos. That is people have become more materialist and hedonistic. It is not an advancement in knowledge as such, rather a shift in our values, for the worse actually. Even still, the belief in god is still universal and transcends cast, creed, sect, gender, nationality,  intellectual denomination. As we have agreed the belief in god is innate.

QuoteWhen man realized he could manipulate his vocal chords to the degree of attaching meaning to them, language was invented. I think i saw Frank say something like he was talking to a being from a different physical reality or maybe a different planet or something while he was in the astral. The being told him that us humans were unique in that most other "intelligent beings" use telapathy. Belief and thought IMO are effects of evolution.

Again, however, there is something missing. That is the drive for man to attach meaning. Why does he attach meaning? This ability to communicate by sound, through modulation of vocal chords, is not unique to man. It is present within the 'lower' animals too. How is he inspired to do that? Again, this can be extended to everything to beliefs, to arts, to science and philosophy. What drive man to do any of this?

Naturally, whenever we discuss the nature of consciousness, language and mental abstraction, imagination, we will always be lead to the same question. What is the source of this inspiration. Is man creating something from nothing, or is he simply connecting to something and recreating it?  As is always the nature of such discussion it will always cause one to explore the laws of causality. Exploring this subject leads to enlightenment. The Zen Buddhists knew this that is why they gave spiritual seekers koans(conundrums)

Evolution is not an answer. It's as supernatural as the belief in god, and in my opinion, illogical. To really sum up evolution, it is like a blind person with amnesia, thrown in the middle of nowhere, thousands of miles from his home, and then somehow finding his way back to his home. Just like imagination is innate to the human being. Order and complexity is innate to the universe. Again, there is a causality(the relationship between cause and effect) that causes chaos to become order. For chaos to become order, there would need to be an intelligence to assemble the order, otherwise, we are left with an illogicality of something coming out of nothing.

We know intelligence is a phenomena of this universe, thus it is only logical, to say  that intelligence is a part of the universe and is an inherent property of nature.

This is the real reason why god is such a universal belief. It makes sense.

QuoteWhy is it that thought must come from another being? Is it not possible that thought comes from within ourselves? That we have the power to think in abstract thoughts and decide the best possible outcome? That is an interesting argument however

If thought came from within ourselves, and I am not sure how you define "self" but presume you were defining self as the human brain. Then presume that consciousness/thought was a para-physical phenomena. Then, it begs to question, how can the physical and limited human brain, produce the unlimited. I think this is perhaps one of the strongest argument for the existence of consciousness as a disembodied phenomena.

If you define the self, as your 'soul' Then what exactly is the soul? Does the soul exist beyond your body or does your body create the soul?

QuoteThe only part your missing is the part of everything. Like a builder that builds a house and then leaves it to another family to reside in, God could have merely built us without any of himself in us. Saying that he is in everything is a circular argument.

You're assuming that something was built.

QuoteHow can thoughts be higher than another? How can thoughts have direction at all? If by higher you mean morally correct, then I would answer with what is morally correct? Is it morally correct to kill? Is it morally correct to kill in the name of God? In the name of anything?

No, I am not talking about morally correct. Rather I am drawing upon experience of others in the astrals with different astral planes and astral beings. And how love and compassion are possessed by the higher beings. However, this is based on here say, and is a fragile argument, unless you can relate to the experiences or exercise faith in others here who report this. I can say this however, what makes you feel good - love or fear?

QuoteYou are, but the difference lies in the reality. There is no way to prove that God is in everything, but there is a way to prove that all reality is intertwined. Simply close your eyes and imagine your favorite place. Right then and there part of your consciousness was outside of your body, however small the percentage.

There is a way to prove that the universe is everything. Perhaps, your definition of god is different from mine. As for your proof, I will play the devil's advocate here, how do you know your consciousness was there. You could have just as easily imagined it.

A much better proof of the existence of the universe as an absolute, is a logical one, that is that is all things in the universe are effects, then there is a primordial cause. If there are parts of something, then there must be a whole too from where the parts came from. Another effective proof, is scientific theories of super strings and GUT(grand unified theory) these phenomena are very subtle. An extremely compelling proof is the existence of the phenomena of quantum entanglement.

QuoteActually, it is my belief that you DO create a copy of your astral self every time you project. The difference between my view and your view here is that i believe what you call your "astral self", I call consciousness. Therefore, all we do when we OBE is create a "copy" of your body and shift your consciousness, the only reason we create the copy in the first place is out of habit. You are used to having a body. You have had one your whole life.

I do not share this belief, because it seems illogical to me. It calls on the same fallacy of nothing creating something. This is what I meant by lower energetic consciousness creating higher energetic consciousness. You are not creating an astral self, in my humble opinion. You are connecting to your astral self. This is what Yoga is, yoga means to link or connect. You can only do that because your astral self exists in the astral plane and always has. You are simply shifting awareness to a higher level of consciousness and thus shifting your reality. At the higher levels of reality you have a greater field of vision, the parts begin to form smaller wholes, and at the highest, you have highest field of vision, this is when all is whole. This is when you and I are no longer independent of each other. But one with each other. This is when you are absolute consciousness. That is the source. That is the god that I know.

Similarly, it is my thought, that you exist multidimensionally and universally. There is no past, present or future. You are leading all your lives at once. You see the god I believe in, is a supreme soul(the whole) that has split into souls, and the souls have split into minds(egos)  Just like you can split into the astral. It's not you having an astral experience; it's your astral having a physical experience. And it is your higher self having an astral experience and god having all the experiences.

Such is the nature of consciousness. God experiences through us.

QuoteThen I must believe in non-dualism. I believe in astral realms, I also believe that all astral realms are intertwined and that all we need to do when we project is shift our awareness. when you are focused on a task at hand, you are 100% aware of the physical. When you are daydreaming, you might have, oh, 80-85% awareness of physical, your awareness is spread into the astral. All we do when we project is focus 100% on whatever "level"(or Focus Level, in phasing model terms) you wish to focus on.

I too believe in non-dualism, except with a rationalist twist. I believe duality and non duality co-exist in the same universe and separated by levels of dualistic realities. I am separate from you in dualistic reality, but one with you in non dualistic reality. In non dualistic reality, you don't exist as entangled/intertwined either, you exist as one. The state of entanglement is also a dualistic reality.

You should be very careful when you say we are all intertwined or one. Someone, could quite easily challenge you on that and falsify you. What you really should be saying we are all intertwined on a more profound level of reality. I see so many spiritual people make this mistake. It undermines their credibility.

QuoteThere is only 1 self. How you choose to experience yourself depends on your level of awareness. The source of consciousness is simply what could be called Focus Level 2, where we can think in abstract thoughts and choose what action to bring into place.

Yes, I agree, there is only one self. However, I am not sure your definition of self is the same as mine. I think your definition of self is an individual soul. This calls on the arguments of how parts can exist without a whole and how were the parts created. While my definition of self is as as unified whole. I have a very Buddhist interpretation of the an all pervading life force, that I call god. However, I differ from the Buddhist beliefs and gravitate towards Hindu beliefs, in saying that this life force is a personal force of supreme consciousness, with whom I can forge a personal relationship with. Just like I can forge a relationship with my inner child. I am a part of this whole and also one with this whole, but I have yet to realize the whole.

Now the Indian philosophical systems are highly developed, and these debate we are engaged in right now, have already occurred amongst the Indian philosophers thousands of years ago. They were no strangers to astral realms either. In the end they all agreed on an absolute reality and consciousness, called god. It was not because of a need to replace a vacuum, it was because after exhausting every other possibility, they were left with only one truth - god. Similarly the modern yogis like Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who devised the famous TM technique, offer the same truth of an absolute consciousness, which when attained, the yogi becomes one with the source.

Now, for me there was never a need to have god in my life. I was a hardcore atheist. It just so happened, after opening my mind and truly sitting down and thinking about this universe logically and coherently  and experiencing a sense of interconnectedness though higher thoughts and feelings of love and wisdom, I too like all of the yogi masters, was left with the same truth: God. In many ways god can also be objectively verified through a collection of subjective experiences.

Quotewas speaking of when you said "Your astral consciousness exist independently of your physical body" and then said "The source of consciousness is that interwined/entangled state

Yeah, there is no contradiction here. As I resolve the dualities with the non duality by introducing the concept of realities. In the reality that we share, I am independent of you, simply because I am not you. In the physical reality you are not interconnected. The physical reality is a lot like the Newtonian universe. Everything is separate and modeled as a particle. There is no action at a distance.

The universe is a very bizarre dichotomy of existence. Everything exists with nothing. Have you ever wondered, why there is an existence in the first place? What if there wasn't an existence? Why is it that everthing just is. This question has always perplexed me and given me a headache. But, the simple answer is, everythying and nothing exist at the same time. Everyone is right. You are right that there is no god. The Buddhists are right that there is a life force. The Hindu's are right that there is a supreme consciousness. Each of you are creating your own reality. Your reality is as real as any other reality. The whole universe is an imagination. There is nothing and there is everything all at the same time. As I said - bizarre. There is no right or wrong. There are just infinite realities.

Frank

Data:

Not wanting to appear picky, but how can "god" be objectively verified via a collection of subjective experiences. This is a contradiction in terms, surely?

Yours,
Frank