Against Christianity?

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Do these practices go against christianity

Yes
12 (16%)
No
51 (68%)
Undecided
12 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 64

Voting closed: October 11, 2004, 19:24:09

fuji257

Genesis 1:14

Of course the ("divine inspired") author thinks the moon is light too, but I won't split hairs . . .


OK, now since you think we should obey the wise words in Deuteronomy lets take a look at some:


You will be punished for the sins of your great grandfather 5:9

Israelites should kill all foreigners in there land without mercy 7:2

Kill anyone who does not worship the Jew war god 13:6-10

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest 17:12-13

If your son disobeys, you guessed it - kill him 21:18-21

Kill rape VICTIMS 22:23

Oh, yeah.  Your God is good. And this is just a cursory glance.

And if I were you I would not throw around the word/phrase "abomination to the Lord" because you are if you eat Lobster according to Leviticus 11: 9-12.   So according to the word of GOD, anyone who has ever eaten a lobster is as bad as a witch.

You can read the Bible and cherry pick some sage advice and good old fashioned wisdom but ignore all the insanity, historical inaccuracies, absurd laws and commands.   Biblical scholars have been trying to explain it away for 2000 years but the bible just does not hold up to logic and morals.  

I suppose all the civilizations that rose and fell BEFORE the inherent word of god are all burning in hell?   The bible may have been around for ~2000 yrs but mankind has been around for over three times longer with written language and the God you choose to worship is not only a lean mean killing machine but he is late on the religious scene as well, as many other gods outdate him by quite some time, and have higher moral standards.

exothen

Have you no response to what I actually wrote?
"When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything." G.K. Chesterton

fuji257

I did respond to what you wrote if you would bother to think.

The question posed is what does the bible say about things like witchcraft etc.

You cherry picked some verses that condemn it.

I cherry picked some verses that are obviously ignored by xtiananity at large.

The point being:  You can't have it both ways.  So either accept some "evil" new age practices or start killing gays, foreigners (in Israel), people who eat lobster, sons who disobey parents etc.

The bible is a hate book.

exothen

fuji,

QuoteThe bible is a hate book.

You sound pretty hateful yourself.
"When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything." G.K. Chesterton

fuji257

Exactly what have I said that makes me hateful?

Most people who know me think I'm a liberal tree hugger.

You accused me of not addressing what you've stated, and now you've refused to address what I have stated - - and reverted to name calling.

The Bible is in fact a hate book.  If you read it.  It is filled with tales of genocide's (by God and directed from God) and murders (by God and directed from God).  It is my OPINION that killing people either individually or by race or beliefs is just wrong;  I understand that you/Jehovah/Bible does not share that opinion.  Just because I point out flaws you cannot/will not defend does not make me hateful.

I love you man!

Quantitativefool

Alot of the references to things such as kill those who invade israel, ect. are mostly in reference to the Babelonian Exile that had befallen the country at that time. The bible (old testament) is not to be taken litereally, I mean, c'mon if you look at it that way there were 2 creation stories. They are merely stories of the time to explain things of greater meaning. God inspired or not they are just a compilation of many many writings during the Babelonian exile. When they say things like God told them to 'kill' or irradicate a country it's often because the country was to war with that country and it was how they recorded history. Thier way of recording history (as of all other religions of the time) was to suppport them and not have it literal, today we have a literal history (e.g. The U.S. went to war with Iraq) thier history would've been (God commanded us to war with Iraq because of the many atrocities of the dictator) people of that time wouldn't believe it literally, they took it as there were reasons to war because the person did immoral things, they didn't think if they read or heard that that God literally told him, which is one of the problems in the bible today, no one really learns how to understand this nonliteral record of history. Sure, parts may of happened, just like Troy, as we now know existed, but they were destroyed by the Greeks as mythology portrayed it but rather over a 5 year war about sea rites.

Hope this gives you an idea.

snic

G'Day Quantitativefool

I class my self as a christen, but I no longer go to Church, because I believe that belief is a personal thing. you cant take what someone says as the truth and disregard everything else. you must make up you own mind, by experimenting and learning for yourself you come to your own conclusion.

allot of damage has been done by the Church in its 2000 years.
The bible teaches tolerance, but where is the tolerance in the Church?

fuji257

YES!  I know that a lot of the bible should not be taken literally.

That was my point.   If you do not take the commands to kill a disobedient son literally, then why should you take it literally not to practice witchcraft?

BOOM, now that you've opened that age old can of worms you'll get people arguing over HOW to interpret different books, chapter, versus of the bible.

And ALL people (esp the church) tend to find an interpretation that AGREEs with what they BELIEVE already - - therefore the Bible is basically USELESS because anyone with enough inclination can make it support whatever ideal(s) they want.  OR you could go and be a complete (idiotic) fundamentalist and take all literally (that is until some a$$hole like me points out the bible approves of rape and other ignored gems, then just ignore, ignore, ignore).

This is exactly why fundies are so rigid on the bible being the infallible word of God.  The second they admit things are open to interpretation their world comes crumbling down around them.  How do you KNOW their strict/literal interpretation is correct?  They'll tell you how:  it is GODs word, without error (one can't argue with that).  This is why fundies INSIST the earth is ~5000 years old, even a person with a 6th grade science level could tell you that's wrong.  If they admit they know the earth is older, that means the bible is not infallible and therefore open to interpretation.

There are SOOOOO many interpretations that make MUCH more theological sense AND historical sense (not to mention scientific) than current christian theology that once fundamentalism is squashed like the inbred rat that it is, a new genre of "christianity" will emerge.  This has actually already happened historically several times.  There have been many christian sects that have lived and died since "christ" that one wonders if than can be counted.  Fundies have always lasted because people are pretty dumb/lazy when you get right down to it, and its easier to tell/convince somebody to "just take it all word for word" than to actually attempt to get that same somebody to STUDY and LEARN.  But like I said from the get go, if most people STUDIED the bible (that means science, language, history, human psychology etc.) most people would realize its mostly garbage to begin with (though it does have SOME historical value).

Tyciol

How exactly do you rationalize the idea that God/Jesus are fine with you experimenting with non-biblical spirituality, spirits and occultism, when the bible specifically prohibits it as the domain of sinful witchcraft leading to Satan?

It seems to me like you're trying to have the best of both worlds. While spirituality might allow it, the Bible doesn't.

I define a Christian as someone who follows the bible's commandments literally. If you're not, you're being rather hypocritical, picking and choosing what to believe and what not to. The bible itself says it is sacred text not to be defiled.

Also, here's two related forums I've been looking at... one's locked for some reason, I'm only on page two so I don't know why yet... but I will...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13587&highlight=bible
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7861&highlight=bible

laiana

What is your definition of "following the Bible literally"?

Do you mean following as per English transation?  Because if you do enough research, you will find that there are parts of the Bible that in English, don't exactly mean the same thing as the original language.  Its the literal translation of the Bible that English speaking Christians follow, and as such, I believe can be misguided.

One only needs to look at the example of the word "Hell" to get an idea.

I use this example because it is one of the better short articles on such.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/PaleHorse13x/Hell.html

Here's another one that was brought to my attention on another forum.

Romans 12:14 says "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse." In verses 17-21 it teaches to never pay back evil for evil; to try to live at peace with all; to NEVER TAKE REVENGE, BUT LEAVE ROOM FOR THE WRATH OF GOD, for "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord".

That being said - as the point was raised, should Christians not file lawsuits against those who do them wrong?  Is that not a form of "payback" or "revenge"?

Tyciol

No, they shouldn't. That is the wrath of man, cursing him. How is suing a man blessing him?

Waiting for the wrath of god means waiting for him to trip and break his neck on a sidewalk.

Palehorse

QuoteHow exactly do you rationalize the idea that God/Jesus are fine with you experimenting with non-biblical spirituality, spirits and occultism, when the bible specifically prohibits it as the domain of sinful witchcraft leading to Satan?

The Bible prohibits idolatry, necromancy, and (debatably) witchcraft.  The Bible also describes instances of early Christians doing things that sound suspiciously like astral projection, having visions, prophetic dreams, and so forth.  There was also a lot of spiritual stuff going on in alternate Christian groups whose writings didn't happen to make it into the Bible, but who I nonetheless view as valid expressions of Christian faith.

So, while the forbidden subjects do occasionally show up here, the ones that aren't are much more prominent.  As a Christian, I see nothing wrong with trying to develop spiritually, or cultivating the ability to have OBEs.  As long as I'm not trying to raise the dead or sacrificing puppies to Moloch, I'm really not seeing any conflict here.

Thanks for the plug, Laiana.   :D
Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
    --Gospel of Thomas, saying 10

paker7

Quote from: PalehorseAs long as I'm not trying to raise the dead

What's wrong with that ?

If Yehoshua did it (resurrected Lazarus) - then why can't i try ?

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

Palehorse

Lol, well I actually meant in the sense of raising their spirit in order to communicate with it, have it do your bidding, or something like that... whereas Jesus raised Lazarus back to life.

But yeah, if you want to attempt the latter, go for it.  Jesus *did* say his followers would be able to do everything he did and more, after all.
Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
    --Gospel of Thomas, saying 10

Tyciol

Guys, the thing you don't seem to understand is that guys like Jacob didn't WILL themselves to have dreams, they didn't try to astrally project, they didn't try to heal. God did it. He gave him the visions, He told them how to heal, and it only worked when He wanted it to.

The powers practised here are what the bible would refer to witchcraft. Even if you're theoretically 'pulling holy light from heaven to heal', you're still pulling it, not being given it.

If Jesus says one day everyone will have his powers, then you wait for God to give him to you, you don't try to take them from Him.

(Note: to be polite, I have capitalized pronouns referring to God, in standard biblical fashion, which I'll try to continue to do here.)

inbliss

it wouldn't be accepted by society, or by the church or any die-hard christian finatics who take the bible so literal that anything but what they believe is of satan.

there's nothing wrong with it.  stop being afraid of something because your church says it's wrong.  we have an ability, and in this ability we can learn so much about ourselves and be better people.  since when does our god condemn us for wanted to be in a closer state of mind to him?  since when are we condemned for disciplining ourselves mentally?

don't let yourselves be told by someone else what is evil and what isn't.  the world is full of blind people.  god knows this, and the majority of you should know this.  unless of course you're one of the projecters who are satanist morons and are obsessed with the concept of "evil."  those are the ones who voted it being against christianity.
"this body holding me reminds me, i am not alone.  we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion."  -tool

Palehorse

Tyciol:

Like I said, Jesus specifically said we'd be able to do everything he did and more.  For the majority of Christians who believe Jesus is God (I have a slightly modified view), this amounts to a "go ahead" for AP and related stuff.  Also, when you consider the view that God is omnipotent and omniscient, technically He's the one behind our ability to do this stuff even if He's not directly yoinking us out of body.

As for me, I tend to think that the biblical characters who were given those experiences have shown us what's possible, and now it's up to us to take the ball and run with it.  When a parent is teaching a child to swim, they first take the child into the water, then hold on to him for a while so he can get the feel for it.  Eventually the parent lets go and lets the child swim for himself, though the parent is still never far away.  Once the kid actually knows how to jump in and swim for himself, what sense is there in continuing to carry him into the water?
Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
    --Gospel of Thomas, saying 10

laiana

Quote from: TyciolGuys, the thing you don't seem to understand is that guys like Jacob didn't WILL themselves to have dreams, they didn't try to astrally project, they didn't try to heal. God did it. He gave him the visions, He told them how to heal, and it only worked when He wanted it to.

So what about those who have naturaly been able to project/heal all their life and didn't necessarily "seek" to do so?  Are THEY doing God's word, or are they too being "deceived by the Devil" (As so many Christians believe).

Palehorse - hey cool!  Didn't realise that was your site, I found it on Google.  That particular article really did open my eyes, as I am currently researching background and histories of Christian beliefs and am finding out all sorts of fascinating stuff.  Thanks for writing it!!

paker7

Quote from: TyciolIf Jesus says one day everyone will have his powers, then you wait for God to give him to you, you don't try to take them from Him.

God is truly omnipotent !

You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will.

If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic.

So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

Palehorse

QuotePalehorse - hey cool! Didn't realise that was your site, I found it on Google. That particular article really did open my eyes, as I am currently researching background and histories of Christian beliefs and am finding out all sorts of fascinating stuff. Thanks for writing it!!

Whoa, awesome... I figured you just got it from here, as I think I've linked to it before, but that's really cool if people are finding it on google.  Small world, eh?  

But yeah, it was something I did as an assignment for an english class several years ago.  Figured it was info that people really should be aware of, so I put it up as the first of several essays; little did I expect the numerous positive responses I've gotten since then.  I'm very pleased to see that there appear to be a lot more people than I thought receptive to the idea of universal reconciliation.  :D

Anyway, the background and history of Christian belief is probably my favorite topic of study, and what I'm trying to base my own belief system on as much as it's possible to reconstruct it (and I'm also an uber-theology-geek anyway), so if you ever want to chat about anything, feel free to keep in touch.

Thanks again!
Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
    --Gospel of Thomas, saying 10

fuji257

God (or anybody) is not omnipetient.  

You CANNOT under ANY circumstances have  an omnimax creator god and freewill both.  It is logically impossible.

This has been a dead horse before the first horse died.  But none the less here is a good thread on it:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=97672

I'll cerainly not be pulled into such a futile argument tho.  It just causes one to pull ones hair out.  Its a none issue.

paker7

Quote from: fuji257God (or anybody) is not omnipetient.  

You CANNOT under ANY circumstances have  an omnimax creator god and freewill both.  It is logically impossible.


Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING.

Everything of course including you and me and Lucifer, Hitler and every killer, rapist and child
molester.

To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time.

I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE.

You could say: Killers, rapists ? Adequate ? No way !

But you simply don't have an access to enough information to judge.

For example:
Imagine what would happen if some crazy psycho killed Hitler's mother when she was for example 10 years old - we wouldn't have WW2 and tens of millions of victims (of course if caught - the psycho should be punished because he killed a totally innocent person).

And another example:
Some people think that WW2 gave us a great lesson about nazism and horrors of global conflict before we had an easy access to weapons of mass destruction - now we know that the next global war would be the last.


Regarding "freewill" - if you are a tiny part of Everything (God) then your will IS God's will.


ps. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc).

ps2. Is it possible to be bigger and more powerful than Everything ? (i would say no).

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

fuji257

Interesting take on things. Based on my knowledge of Taoism and Hinduism you sound more like a Taoist than a Hindu.  But you know what you are huh?  That is about the only thing we can know when it comes to religion at times.

I know a lot of (to the left) "christians" that after hearing their beliefs, I find that they are actually Quakers - but don't even know it.  They've just been raised as Christians and have mental blocks about looking into other branches.

I found a REALLY COOL site that tells you, based on your beliefs what religion you most closely match:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

The first time I took it (a year or so ago) I learned I was a 100% Jainist!  I didn't even know what that was!  Of course I do a lot of studying and reading and contemplating so my opinions/beliefs change frequently.

paker7

Quote from: fuji257I found a REALLY COOL site that tells you, based on your beliefs what religion you most closely match:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

The first time I took it (a year or so ago) I learned I was a 100% Jainist!  I didn't even know what that was!  Of course I do a lot of studying and reading and contemplating so my opinions/beliefs change frequently.

Cool  8)

My results:

1.  New Thought (100%)  
2.  New Age (97%)  
3.  Neo-Pagan (91%)  
4.  Scientology (83%)  
5.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (82%)  
6.  Mahayana Buddhism (73%)  
7.  Unitarian Universalism (71%)  
8.  Liberal Quakers (63%)  
9.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (59%)  
10.  Hinduism (58%)  
11.  Taoism (56%)  
12.  Theravada Buddhism (51%)  
13.  Reform Judaism (40%)  
14.  Sikhism (30%)  
15.  Jainism (28%)  
16.  Secular Humanism (28%)  
17.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (25%)  
18.  Nontheist (24%)  
19.  Bahá'í Faith (23%)  
20.  Orthodox Quaker (23%)  
21.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (21%)  
22.  Orthodox Judaism (20%)  
23.  Jehovah's Witness (17%)  
24.  Seventh Day Adventist (11%)  
25.  Islam (5%)  
26.  Eastern Orthodox (0%)  
27.  Roman Catholic (0%) - LOL  :D

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

fuji257

I just took it agian for fun:


   
1.    Mahayana Buddhism (100%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
2.    Unitarian Universalism (87%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
3.    Theravada Buddhism (87%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
4.    Hinduism (86%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
5.    New Age (84%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
6.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (82%)javascript:emoticon(':?')
7.    Neo-Pagan (81%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
8.    Liberal Quakers (80%)
9.    Bahá'í Faith (75%)
10.    Jainism (74%)
11.    Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (72%) javascript:emoticon(':shock:')
12.    New Thought (69%)
13.    Sikhism (68%)
14.    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (60%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
15.    Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (59%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
16.    Orthodox Judaism (59%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
17.    Taoism (53%)
18.    Scientology (52%) javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')
19.    Orthodox Quaker (50%)
20.    Reform Judaism (50%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
21.    Islam (49%) javascript:emoticon(':evil:')
22.    Jehovah's Witness (49%) javascript:emoticon(':P')
23.    Secular Humanism (45%) javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')
24.    Nontheist (41%)
25.    Seventh Day Adventist (38%) javascript:emoticon(':D')
26.    Eastern Orthodox (33%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
27.    Roman Catholic (33%) :roll:

Good stuff!