Astral Projection and The Reformed Christian

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Stookie

I grew up in a Midwestern, christian family - Went to church and Sunday school every Sunday, went to a christian school during the week, vacation bible school in the summer, prayed as a family before every meal. And even though I grew up thinking I understood Christ and Christianity, when I got to be 17 or 18 I realized that there were some serious holes to be filled. I quit going to church and started a quest to learn about other beliefs, when I found Robert Monroe's "Ultimate Journey" and was immediately hooked on OBE's.

I've never explained to my family my beliefs and expectations, and even go to church with them when they ask me to come. When they ask me why I don't go to church, I tell them I can't find one that "fit's me", even though I have no intention on looking. Other that that, I get along great with them which is why I keep everything to myself.

This may be an advanced question (maybe something for Frank), but I've been wondering a lot about this type of relationship in the afterlife. Let's say that when my family passes away, they go to their "ideal" form of a Christian Heaven.  When I pass, will they feel a need to "save" me? Or what about member of my family who has already passed? Do they look at me now and think I've strayed? Do I (or can I) help them with what I've been learning? I know these are questions that very from person to person, but is this something that happens?

I listened to a "direct voice" recording from the astral pulse newsletter recently, and a man who had passed over said that he has been to places in the astral with tons of people from a certain sect that continues to go to church, pray, and have prayer meetings. He said on attemps to save them, they pray for his soul. (Church is sooooo boring. This doesn't sound like heaven to me.)

Sometimes a thought comes from the back of my head and says "what if all of your experiences have been an illusion and you really do end up in the hell", but I chalk this up to years of childhood conditioning that still makes it's way through occasionally.

Are there any other used-to-be Christians here? and if so, do you have any similar family experiences?

halfphased

hehe, we have similar stories as far as it comes to our Christian upbringing.  Church and Sunday school on Sunday, youth group on Wednesday, attended a Christian School, and my father is an ordained minister.

I also started to seriously break from Christianity around 17 or 18.  Mostly due to the many holes in the Christian philosophy (at least in the way Christian philosophy has been packaged and presented in modern times.)
I still dig most of the teachings of Jesus though.  

Personally, I would just be honest about your feelings and beliefs.  I can not say that I have sat down and told my parents detail for detail what exactly it is that I believe, but they do understand that I am not a Christian and they respect that.  Of course, I would not say that my dad is a typical Christian.  He has also seen the holes and inconsistencies between what is said and what is done, but has somehow managed to reconcile the differences and find his own Christian path.

Perhaps what I am saying is that you do not need to go jump off a cliff the first time you have the "I am not a Christian" discussion.  Perhaps you do not even need to say the words "I am not a Christian."  If someone were to ask me why I do not go to church, I might have a discussion about the things I do not agree with.  I would never deride people for going to church, (except if they were attending a church that was spewing some hateful trash and telling people it was the teachings of Christ) because most people that attend church are very nice and attempt to lead an upright life.  Of course, I don't expect that every Christian I meet is going to "get it".  I am sure that there will be obvious inconsistencies between their lives and what Christianity teaches.  Just as there are insonsistencies between what I believe and what I do.  Same goes for the Buddhist, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Jians, and every other religious community.

It can be difficult talking to people about their beliefs.  The best thing I have found to do is not to attack them directly.  That will only innitiate trench digging mode and you'll probably find that they will become emotionally unbalanced.  It's like taking a child's security blanket and ripping it to shreds right in front of their face.  Rather, I have found it tactful to offer alternative viewpoints or evidence that may highlight inconsistencies within their philosophical system.  No need to push them too hard.  Just say "what about..." and see how they respond.  If they become aggitated then I would consider changing the subject, but you might find that they don't say anything at all or offer a "hmmmmm..."  

Of course your loved ones are going to want to save you.  heh, I might be concerned about your relationship if they did not.  After all, they believe that if you are not saved then you will spend the rest of your eternity being poked in the butt by a silly looking red guy that has horns sticking out of his head.  Take it as a compliment that they are concerned about your future.  

You may be able to help these people with what you are learning.  You may not...  I believe that everything that happens is of some value.  We are learning all the time.  Sometimes we are not open to what is happening around us and we miss an opportunity to learn something...  Some will be open and some will not be.  I also do not wish to see anyone spend eternity in Church Land, but some people seem to require such an experience before they can move past that.  When they are ready to move on they will move on.  You can only help them as much as they allow you to.

If all your experiences are an illusion then how do you know anything?
If your experiences are an illusion then isn't it possible that the idea of hell is also an illusion?

I have a little test that popped into my head one day.  It arose from the idea that if God is the creator of everything then everything that is created is a part of God.  I just could not comprehend how God could be perfectly happy with the idea that he would be seperated from any part of his creation for eternity or that God's love was conditional.  I mean how does God seperate himself from himself?  

So my test was that if I could not find one person that I would want to suffer for eternity then certainly any God worth her salt would also be at a loss to find one person that she could allow to go to hell.  Guess what?  I could not find one person -- not even the devil himself.

Froglet

I come from the same background also... I'm currently 18. I read all 3 of Robert Monroe's books in a month about 6 months ago. and I've been moving towards finding whatever it is that is truth.  my idea is I want to learn what is the truth and not what people make it. I'm not advanced enough to help you really with your questions.  

James

laiana

Quote from: Stookie

Sometimes a thought comes from the back of my head and says "what if all of your experiences have been an illusion and you really do end up in the hell", but I chalk this up to years of childhood conditioning that still makes it's way through occasionally.


Thats the exact same thing that I went through myself and although it takes some time (more so for you due to your christian upbringing) but its something that you will slowly come to terms with.

Don't most Christians believe that once you're in hell you're in hell, so I doubt they would try to save you in an afterlife.  During your life however of course they will want to because as it was already mentioned, they belive that you WILL go to hell if you don't repent, declare jesus as your lord and saviour, etc etc.

Its a tricky issue really, one that I've discussed with many different christians and always get the same response.

James S

Wow, there does seem to be a few of us who have seen the "other" light!

Ditto to the whole christian now ex-christian thing!

It's interesting listening to people who have spoken with those who've died and crossed over. As I mentioned in another post, I went to see Allison Dubois last night (of Medium fame).  She cracked us all up when telling us about people who absolutely don't believe in the afterlife. Theres been more than one "departed soul" she's met that's spoken to her and basically said "oops!"

It seems that when people die and get to the other side, providing they don't end up trapped in a taumatic "private hell" (goes wiht the whole thought = reality deal), if they're aware of what's going on, they pretty soon realise the things they got wrong while on Earth.

Blessings,
James

Beth

Dear Stookie,

I wish I could provide you with THE ANSWER that you seek, but I am not yet convinced that there is ONE ANSWER that we can ever know as long as we are in these present bodies.  

My knowledge base (which certainly includes Christianity), as well as my personal experience of the astral tells me that whatever we experience, at least initially when we leave these bodies for good, is very much a mental construct of our own making.   I have the feeling that whatever 'I think' will be awaiting my last breath here and my first breath there, will indeed be 'waiting for me' at least to some extent.  What happens after that? I cannot say. Because these bigger questions are not so readily answered, I try to live within the answers that I can find.  

Seek and ye shall find.  Knock and it shall be answered unto you.  From following this maxim, I have found that there are guiding forces in my life, and it is to those forces that I have learned to work with along with my own reasoning ability.  To do the same would be the best advice I can offer.  This path can be very exciting and very challenging as well.  To do so in a world where religion is so prevalent, you have to be willing to walk on the fringes of society to a great extent. This is not easy for some people, but is definately a do-able for others; and times are a'changin' and one day it will be more the norm than the exception. Until then, it is up to you to be true to yourself with every step you take.  

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

David Warner

Stookie,

I understand exactly where you are coming from because I thought the same when I was younger and at your age. The church I went to was Methodist/white collar, stuffy and uptight.

Once I entered my 20's I dropped from sight and returned 16yrs later to realize that I was right and couldn't see or feel about the direction. Not to condemn their beliefs, what they stood up for, I totally respect. But it just wasn't me which a good part of astral projection helped me along the way to get closer to God.

At the present, I do attend church in Grand Rapids, MI and I like their approach, the message and commitment to the community, world, and Christ. I'm not a reborn christian but I do believe that God is in everything and everywhere.

Your best bet is to study and learn much that you can with astral projection and draw your own conclusions from your experiences.


Tvos
InvisibleLight - Book Release 12.12.2012
www.invisiblelight.us

Stookie

Thanks! All of those replies were awesome!

I understand that there is no definite answer, I was just curious on how my situation relates with others.  A big part of the relationships throughout my entire family is Christianity. My Grandfather mentioned a few months ago about how it's faith in Christ that has kept our family close and together. And I totally agree with that.

I also once heard the pastor at my parents church pray for a lady who meditates. He said she "empties her mind". Which he then said means that she has also emptied her mind of Jesus and God. I wanted to scream "what the hell are you talking about!", but kept quiet.

There's a lot of truth in Christianity, but there is also piles and piles of dogma and fear - especially fear of things that a Christian doesn't understand.

This isn't a huge problem in my life, but it's definitely a subject that has grabbed my attention more than a few times. Really, I love my family and wouldn't want to change my upbringing for anything. I've been hiking the Appalachian trail with my parents a lot lately (they're about to retire) and have had more fun with them than I ever have.

Once again, thanks everyone.

laiana

Quote from: Stookie

I also once heard the pastor at my parents church pray for a lady who meditates. He said she "empties her mind". Which he then said means that she has also emptied her mind of Jesus and God. I wanted to scream "what the hell are you talking about!", but kept quiet.

I've heard that being said as well.  I read a really good comment (on this forum or in abook??) which explained it very well for me.

When you meditate, you learn to hold back the random thoughts that go into your head all the time, over and over.  You're not "emptying" your mind, you're just giving yourself some peace and quiet, and you are, through your own dedication, learning to be able to focus and keep the endless chatter at bay.

Now, if the devil, or some evil being, wanted to try and sway you to their side, would it not be HARDER for them to get into your mind while you are holding it clear consciously?  It would be easier for the devil or whomever to slip in random thoughts amongst the endless chatter that goes on bit by bit without you ever knowing.

That really made sense to me.  

Christians don't think about Jesus 24/7 as much as they would like to think they do, and meditating and clearing your thoughts is no worse than thinking about what you're going to make for dinner (are you thinking of Jesus then too?)

-Alex-

I grew up as a hardcore Christian. (Heh, I'm only 14 now so consider growing up to be the period from 5yrs. old to 12yrs. old) I don't really consider myself a Christian anymore but I still try to live out some of the aspects of Christianity. For example, "Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you.", is a guideline I try to follow quite a bit.  

         There are many things in the Christian faith that are good and well to follow, but, there are things I strongly disagree with. My main problem is the, "If you don't believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior, you are going to Hell.", people. (I've met quite a few!) I see two main flaws in this:
         First off, I don't believe in Hell. It is quite a good ploy to scare people into religion and it seems to be one of the deciding factors in many   a Christians faith.

         Secondly, pretend with me for a second that Hell exists exactly as the Christian church makes it out to be and, if you don't accept Jesus as you savior, you are going there. There is a huge flaw I see in this ...What kind of cruel God would exact this horrible doctrine?!? I believe some 26,000 children die a day and, if they didn't know Jesus, they are burning in Hell. To me this is just ridiculous.

        Anyways, coming back on topic I know the feeling of people trying to "save" me. (Especially at various Christian camps I've been to.) I find you just have to live and deal with it. When you are too abrasive, or try and tell someone they are wrong up front it is common for them to retract into their shell. It's all about moderation and impose you views. Rather I try to give my family a new way of looking at things.

~Alex

P.S. Voice of Silence, is that Grand Rapids, Minnesota? If so, WOOT Go Minnesota!

Stookie

One last thing that I forgot to mention is that this isn't a new situation for me - this is going on 10 years now.  At 27, I wonder how long I'm going to pretend to be Christian with my family.  It's not like it's a big deal, but I do feel as though I have a whole separate life that they know nothing about.  My Mom really takes her faith seriously - I remember her arguing with a Jehovah's Witness for about 2 hours once. You can't shake her faith in Jesus.

Bill Hicks said he once talked to a Fundamental Christian about the origins of earth (many fundamentalists believe that the earth was created something like 4000 years ago, according to Genesis).

He said to the guy "Then how do you explain dinosaur fossils?".

The guy says, "God put those there to test us".

Bill says "I think God put you here to test me."

laiana

Quote from: Stookie
Bill Hicks said he once talked to a Fundamental Christian about the origins of earth (many fundamentalists believe that the earth was created something like 4000 years ago, according to Genesis).

He said to the guy "Then how do you explain dinosaur fossils?".

The guy says, "God put those there to test us".

Bill says "I think God put you here to test me."

Oh man I just love when I hear stuff like that, that god put the fossils there and someone even went so far as to say that scientists that have proven how old the fossils are are being deceived by the devil.

halfphased

I don't wish to steer too far off topic, but I highly recommend "Summer for the Gods" by Edward J. Larson and "Creationism on Trial" by Langdon Gilkey as highly informative and very well documented accounts of the Scopes trial (Summer for the Gods) and the ACLU's case against creationism in Little Rock (Creationism on Trial).

All the misconceptions and twists in history are highlighted masterfully and you will never think about Creationism in the same way after reading these books.  The history of how evolution was pitted against Christianity is not as clear cut as I thought.  In fact they have not always been seen as conflicting.

The books also offer a discourse on the difference between religion and science and the domain of each.  Gilkey's discussion on the difference between primary and secondary causes is highly enlightening.  Forgive me for not typing it out here for you, since I am on a tight schedule at the moment.

If you only read one book then make it "Creationism on Trial."  But I highly recommend both.  (No, I do not recieve any commision off of the sales of either of these books.  hehehehhehe)

Quote
My Mom really takes her faith seriously - I remember her arguing with a Jehovah's Witness for about 2 hours once. You can't shake her faith in Jesus.

'Faith'...  What a misused word.  True faith transcends our ability to put it into words.  True faith is beyond our ability to defend or explain through logic and reason.  If my faith is based upon a certain set of conditions then I have no right to call it "faith".

The "faith" of most people is nothing more than fear covered in powdered sugar.

knightlight

im with you stookie.  I attended church until the age of 14 devoutly, I was moved deeply by the sheer emotion of the congregation singing hymns and praising God.  I felt that the church as a whole was a portal to something I couldnt find outside of it.  I have grown alot since then, I am now 22 and I havent been to church in 8 years.  My father was actually going to school to be a pastor, but suddenly we stopped going to church, suddenly he stopped learning.  I still dont know why, but at that point in my life I started questioning.  Through this questioning I realized that all this dogma and all the oppression was coming from a book. At that point  I read the Bible and loved it.  I loved the stories, I loved Jesus!  I still do.  I hope someday I can chill with him and have a good laugh at the indoctrination going on down on earth.  His teachings are paramount in my beliefs.  

I remember reading about how you can find Him everywhere and  not to build temples for Him, but your body is your temple!  I was blown away at that time, 7 years ago.  I realized that I didnt need church or others to decide for me what to believe, it was all up to me.  At the age of 16 I began researching other religions in a rush to find something to latch onto, around that period in time I became really depressed and felt nihilistic and didnt believe in anything.  I studied ancient celtic beliefs, pagan beliefs, and then settled into Buddhism.  AHHHH the doors this great system opened for me!  I got into meditation and read every book on Buddhism I could get my hands on.  I decided I didnt need religion, what I needed was a philosophy!  I had found that in the teachings of Buddha.  I look up to him as a kind chubby man smiling at my progress through this temporal existence.  Hey, your avatar is even Buddha!  :lol:

I guess from then on out I have been deepening my understanding of my own beliefs through mind melting debates with my friend who is a philosophy nut and anyone else who wants to rumble.  I always walk away with a feeling of learning something.  

I can relate to your situation because, like you, I havent told my parents about my progression.  If I told them I was into AP they would probably look at me sideways and tell me to stop.  Tell me im nuts.  Tell me im endangering myself.  In reality I am searching for the truth!  Something christianity in its most common form that is passed down through churches does not allow.  Best of luck to you.
Profound Impatience makes the blind struggle in Stupidity.

Stookie

QuoteI studied ancient celtic beliefs, pagan beliefs, and then settled into Buddhism. AHHHH the doors this great system opened for me! I got into meditation and read every book on Buddhism I could get my hands on. I decided I didnt need religion, what I needed was a philosophy!
That's was pretty much my route. Also, one of the main influences at that time for me was Henry David Thoreau. A friend told me to read "Walden" and my life philosophy was changed. I still model my life after him.

QuoteHey, your avatar is even Buddha!

My Buddha avatar is a 3 ft. statue. A friend of mine found it in an old house that he was cleaning out and gave it to me. I cleaned it up and painted it and now it's the first thing a person sees when they come in my house.

Xernous

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are, Stookie. I left the Catholic church at 16 when I started disagreeing with many of the beliefs and principles (I'm 21 now). I do keep some of the basic teachings, such as doing unto others as you wish to be done to you. My parents are also very Christian, but I've always gotten along with them regardless of my personal spiritual beliefs. I've seen my sister argue with my parents for hours on how their faith is not completely correct (she's an agnostic). I think that the best thing that I can recommend is to simply respect their beliefs, and if something comes up, like a little quirk in your beliefs that don't match with theirs, simply explain how you feel in a non-threatening or non-argumentative manner. If your parents really care about you, I'm sure that they'll understand.

CFTraveler

Since I was raised Catholic with a sprinkling of Santeria (I am Puerto Rican), and I had a very openminded view of religion, I found  a church which agrees with most of what I believe in, which is Unity Church.  Each church is different, the ministers kind of set the tune, and their teachings are very undogmatic.  It is the religion I'm raising my son in, since it's very important to me that he grows up believing he is a perfect child of God- none of that miserable sinner stuff.

CFTraveler

Sorry, Stookie, forgot the reason for my post:
QuoteThis may be an advanced question (maybe something for Frank), but I've been wondering a lot about this type of relationship in the afterlife. Let's say that when my family passes away, they go to their "ideal" form of a Christian Heaven. When I pass, will they feel a need to "save" me? Or what about member of my family who has already passed? Do they look at me now and think I've strayed? Do I (or can I) help them with what I've been learning? I know these are questions that very from person to person, but is this something that happens?
I have read in many channeled readings and NDExperiences, that the state of the "self-created heaven/hell" is only a stage, and at some point they realize they are creating that reality and move on to their next incarnation (or alternate existence, whatever that is.)  I don't know what's true, but I make it a point to tell anyone who asks that I believe the afterlife (life also, but not everyone gets that) is self-created.  That way I feel that the information is 'in there' for them to figure out if they need to.  I know that's silly, but what the hey!

Stookie

Wow, a lot has changed since I originally created this thread. My relationship with my parents is absolutely wonderful. They attend church weekly, but only bug me about it on holidays, which I don't mind at all. I have dinner with them every other Sunday and we've been having some great spiritual conversations, all in the context of Christianity. I do feel that they have an exceptional understanding of God and God's Will that many Christians miss. They remain non-denominational.

I posted this last August:

QuoteI wonder how long I'm going to pretend to be Christian with my family. It's not like it's a big deal, but I do feel as though I have a whole separate life that they know nothing about.

I'm in a totally different place now. What I do is take where I'm at now and put it in context with what they understand and believe. It doesn't matter at all what I call myself.

This is no longer an issue. Yay!!!

Thanks Xernous and CFTraveler

daem0n

it is interesting, i am christian and yesterday talked with a priest about deceased souls staying on earth and interacting with the living

he said it is common, there are people visited in dreams and after they pray or hold mass in the intention of the deceased the contact stops, the souls take care of the living the same as the living take care of the souls

that's why christians pray for people in purgatory, so i understand that according to Church some planes can be associated with purgatory, as well as heaven and hell (eternal damnation is sheduled during the end of time, not right after death btw)

although from what i read here it wasn't you usual run-of-the-mill priest ;)
oh well, some can't be helped

there are activities that are prohibited for good reason though, i find developing psychic abilities, magic etc one of them, if you refine your consciousness and Love they develop naturaly, people training them just for the sake of it or curiosity are hurting themselves IMHO, if they would be ready they would have them without any training, not mentioning attachement problems and a bunch of other stuff you notice until it is too late, the solution being Love, as usual

i find Church, after i got over my misunderstanding and oppresion i felt, freeing, and developing my ability to Love
Search for the cause of self, in self
To find everything and nothing

daemox

i am a christian, and an evangelical christian at that... although i am open minded, i dont judge, bash, force christianity on people either....and i know there are a lot of different types of christians, but there is only one true christian... and i know that also that astral projection is real, and we cna leave our bodies... and alter dreams and other things.... the main problem in it and danger of it though is when you trust your eternity, peace, well-being, salvation or anything like that....entirely in it... no matter what it is..... we are tempted to lean towards what we want... not what we know to be true.... but when we lose our trust in Jesus, or when we stop trusting in him for our provider of all things.... astral travelling or not.... thats the downfall of it....and the danger....

go ahead, meditate, lucid dream, astral travel.... but beware on letting all your faith dwindle away.......no matter what you do..... and be mindful and thankful of the price he has already paid for us..... and i don't mean join a church, or nothing like that if you don't want to..... i think it helps a person grow.... we ARE the church, and without faith, we can't please him....and without faith we are still in our sins, and whether we are rgeat people, full of compassion, or anything else... we still will have to answere to our maker for why we didn't have faith in his sacrifice.....and what will we say?
Jesus Is Lord!

gaiahaojin

:tetter: I recommend that you take a look at an article called "Beyond Belief", on Buddha Net, which takes a critical look at some of Christianity's darker parts, its' contradictions, inaccuracies and, at times, alarming points of view. Such things being, cruelty, sexism, slavery, violence, intolerance, extreme injustice, and an almost overwhelming arrogance.
It points out the illogical things written in the Bible most Christians would overlook or ignore. It also takes a look at the darker aspects of Jesus that most are not even aware of, and also a more revealing show of Gods character, of hatred, intolerance, injustice, vanity, jealousy, egotism and fear. I found this a very useful article, which helped me move from Christianity, which I was never very comfortable with, and I am now much happier for it. (This article doesn't really have many Buddhist references, apart from the main section explaining it, so if you're not Buddhist or anything, just ignore it.)

CFTraveler

I'm very happy you're doing all right with your family, Stookie.  Merry Christmas!

Goober

My parents are hardcore Christians, and I used to be.



Everytime I get even near the subject of opening my mind to things other than Christianity, my dad shuts me up and will hear no more about it.

Ehhh, he's a great guy, and he's not an idiot, but I think because we are in a community where 99.9% of people are Christian, and he was born into one, he gets very worried about me becoming a non-Christian. Thinking I will be doomed to hell........

Goober

Quote from: daemox on June 04, 2006, 23:44:58
and without faith we are still in our sins, and whether we are rgeat people, full of compassion, or anything else... we still will have to answere to our maker for why we didn't have faith in his sacrifice.....and what will we say?

"Well, Jesus, it didn't seem logical at the time. Now, if you are really God, and loving, you aren't going to send me to eternal damnation for something as small as that. I'll see you in Heaven."