Abraham, Osama, Islam and Astral Projection, bad assumptions

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kamals

I begin with and end with this: True spiritual growth requires the ability and willingness to face what you don't like facing, consistently. Ruthlessly.

I revive this topic because I think it is important and some important things need to be said. A real problem, I think, is that people do not examine their assumptions or pool of knowledge. This is the case in the last thread for Abraham and those replying to him.

One person stated, in ignorance: "And the best part is that our beliefs do not hurt or take advantage of others...unlike... Islam's followers who distort it murder and rape the innocent".  I blame no one; it is possible to argue that nearly everyone on this world is MANIPULATED, from the East and West, by certain entities, corporations, governments, lil gray men from alpha centari (or from inner planes) WHATEVER. The fact is manipulation. And there is a bigger picture and bigger context and those who truly want to seek the truth should seek it on all levels and discover the true entities that are pulling certain strings. And growth requires a willingness to question our own assumptions.

The New Age is notorious for a sweetens and light Pollyanna style of spirituality. Is it not cowardice to refuse to face the true suffering in the world? To contemplate your navel and wait for 2012 whilst the world burns?  This isn't "positive thinking". This is blindness and irresponsibility. I can tell you tales of suffering you would not believe. Any spiritually mature individual should be able to gaze into the abyss without flinching even whilst the abyss gazes back into you. If you want to progress spiritually acknowledge the darkness.

And I shall tell you of darkness. But first...

First though, for my brother Abraham, I have a few words.

As for you Abraham, unquestioned assumptions are dangerous. You wrongly assume that astral projection is false based on what? Your own experiences? Your understanding or lack thereof of the Quran and Hadiths? The Quran encourages tafakur and muraqabah - contemplation, meditation, and constant self examination, of assumptions, questions, whys and hows. So assumptions you make. 1) Osama is protected by God and Astral Projection is false, OR the opposite.

That's BAD logic Sidi. Know this; logic, "mantiq", is basic in any real madressa or Dar Ulum course of study. Logic is useful in examining statements and ideas. Often we see certain possibilities whilst missing others. There are additional options to the ones you believe. Have you considered that maybe Osama is protected AND astral projection is real, OR have you considered that maybe Osama isn't protected AND Astral projection is false, OR have you considered maybe Osama isn't protected AND Astral projection is real...

OR have you considered that maybe Osama isn't being protected by God because HE'S DEAD. Indeed have you or anyone here any proof he is alive? Have you met him?
Do you accept on authority that he lives? Why? Have you considered that maybe he's just a bogyman the media keeps dredging up to scare people with, and some other people find him to be a useful symbol as a martyr. Maybe Osama was a pawn in a larger game who outlived his usefulness? Or maybe he is an INNOCENT simply trying to respond to what he sees as horrific oppression. Has anyone here considered what Osama's worldview might be?

Maybe he's not even real. A name of a man who once lived and whose name is useful to those with certain agendas. The "tapes" of him are notoriously dodgy, grainy, hard to authenticate. I've read articles of professional forensic voice print professionals complain about the CIA's "authentication" of his statements. There's no proof either way.

Next, your assumption about Astral Projection is false, I believe. I believe that it is a documented phenomenon IN ISLAM. There is a lot of literature regarding the exploration of the so-called "astral" planes or barzakhi realms (some authors call it the Alam al-Ghayb, others call it Hurqalya, or the Alam-e-Araf) by Muslim writers, both Sunni and Shia. Ibn Arabi, Suhrwardi, IMAM GHAZZALI, Rumi, Ahmed al-Ahsai, and others have dealt with it; in addition there are the ahadith that explicitly deal with what the soul does when the human body sleeps, where it goes, what it encounters on its way back.

For any interested refer to these links:
http://www.guidinghelper.com/qna/ihsan.html
"The second type of perception is called metaphysical
perception.  This involves a shift of conscious from the
physical world to the hidden metaphysical world (ghayb)
and can be achieved in various ways, such as "astral projection",
"remote viewing", or as the Prophet (May Allah bless him and
give him peace) was able to do physically in body and soul during
his Isra and Mi`raj (Night Journey and ascension).  Additionally,
people also experience this metaphysical world in terms
of "feelings" which they label as "spiritual" and also in their true
dreams.  And since these last two methods is how most humans
perceive the metaphysical world (while in this life) it is worth
emphasizing that these "spiritual feelings" and "true dreams"
that they have are "perceptions of the metaphysical world"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_cosmology (it's one MODEL - symbolic, expressing the unexpressed, some things are not literal) but to quote the article:
"Nehr-e-Tazheer (Channel of Manifestation) whose last limit is Alam-e-Nasoot, feeds Latifa-e-Nafsi. Human Realm is categorized as under:
One Kitab-al-Mubeen, that controls
300 million Loh-e-Mehfooz, each one controlling
80 thousand Hazeere (Galaxies), each one containing
13 billion Solar systems, out of which
1 billion solar systems have life on one of their planets.
Each Star has 9, 12 or 13 planets around it.
On every planet with life on it, life exists in three different planes of existence. These include Plane of Angels, Plane of Jinns, & Plane of Humans. On the other hand, it is surrounded by another realm known as Alam-e-Araf or Barzakh (Astral plane), where humans stay after they die (when the connection of soul breaks with the physical body). Humans can also visit astral realm during sleep (in dream state) or during meditation."
See also
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Islamic_esotericism/Suhrawardi-intermedworld.htm

Not to mention for those who have experienced these states, they are realities as vivid as waking reality. Now again assumptions. Certain states, Hals (Ahwal) are evident and can be experienced. But the context needs to be examined, maybe what people think is astral projection is something else, but the state itself must be experienced before you question it, to experience you must undertake certain exercises and if you are unwilling to do the work you have not experienced "dhawq" - you have not tasted it. Your knowledge is purely theoretical.

Next, leaving Abraham and back to "... Islam's followers who distort it murder and rape the innocent". Have you any proof that Islam's followers are more prone to doing this than anyone else? If not then its slander unbecoming anyone who claims to be a "seeker of truth". So, as to the non Muslim critics on this forum, refer to the above and note this well. Every religious and spiritual belief is subject to distortion, and abuse for power purposes. Every and any idea, from democracy freedom and universal brotherhood, to Krishna's teachings, has been, and can be with ease, used for power purposes. For every peaceful Wiccan pagan hugging trees there is a neo-Nazi studying runes. Take Buddhism, in Tibet the Buddhist elites have, for centuries, subjected native Bon-Po Shamans to ruthless and bloody repression from time to time because (as one monk stated) "they worship demons".

If anything en masse, considering history I would state that Islam has done more for Universal brotherhood of humanity, more for civilization, than any other teaching of its age. Sounds absurd to you only because you have a selective reading of history and you never bothered to look beyond it because it simply hasn't occurred to you that your worldview in this matter might need examination.

Given that there are 1 billion of us Muslims, I claim that Islam's followers are amongst the most peaceful on the world. Put ANY other community en masse in the same situations that Muslims have been involved in the last century and can you say that they would fare any better? Some will find this statement absurd, but is it? Have you really examined BOTH sides of the story?

I've spent my entire adult life in University and on my own examining both sides of the story, and the one consistent fact I can say is that most people haven't a clue about what occurs in the middle east and Africa, only what the media tells them, or they read a bad translation of the Quran, ask one or two Muslims on the street who may know next to nothing about their own faith, read a polemic or two written by writers with obvious agendas and poof, their minds are made up.

Muslims worldwide the last 150 years have experienced unbelievable repression, oppression, slaughters, and genocides, from China to Russia to West Africa. It's now wonder some of them are cranky, to say the least. The original warrant for the European slave trade was a papal bull authorizing the slave raiding of West Africa for the purposes of crusading and converting the "heathens" the reason there are blacks in the Americas today is that the Church authorized their raiding as part of a series of wars against Islamdom, and that is a historical fact. Pope Nicholas V's Bull Authorizing the African Slave Trade. It was the Dum Diversas which granted the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce "Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers" to perpetual slavery. The Chechens today are still fighting the Russians NOT because they are terrorists, but because for over 100 years the Russians have invaded, enslaved, raped, and tortured them, almost to wholesale genocide. Stalin forced the entire population of Chechnya to Siberia at one point. Can you blame them? In Cambodia the small native Muslim population was almost slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge, I challenge you to look everywhere in the world where you see Muslims in a state of instability it is after those populations had experienced horrific violence for quite some time. These wounds DO NOT HEAL because they are not allowed to heal.

Beirut, the bombing of the marine barracks made the news. But did anyone teach you that the Marines were bombarding Muslim villages in Lebanon, illegally, in defiance of official policy of American neutrality in that conflict, and slaughtering hundreds of civilians, women and children?

If a foreign army was bombing your village and you saw the people you loved blown to bits, how would you feel as the body parts of children blown in quarters rains down upon you?

That is reality.

Or are you content with the version of truth that is comfortable for you. If so then what business have you in any sort of metaphysical quest if you can't question your basic assumptions. The very fact that the media paints such a bad picture of Islam is enough to make any sane person ask questions because as most thinking people realize, the media by nature distorts. I contend, and I swear to God 100 years from now History books will record this as truth once the FULL picture is known, that much of the violence one sees is the inevitable result of decades of repression and rape and torture. But the media doesn't show you this stuff does it, and you lack the critical instinct to question the truths you see. Some fine seeker of truth...

Everyone blames the "Muslim Brotherhood" but few know the history of the massive torture its members endured in the 1950s and 60's. Torture, rape, having one's private parts electrocuted with 12 volt car batteries because you question the government will tend to make people bitter. Watching your daughter raped by police, a reality in MANY Middle Eastern countries, because YOU questioned the government, all of these things are real, documented by human rights group.

It is a fact, for example, that Israel's secret services fire-bombed American embassies and consulates in the 1950's, tried to pin the blame on the Muslim brotherhood, to disrupt American and Egypt relations. The Egyptians rounded up much of the Muslim Brotherhood, many were tortured, and Israel's role in it was discovered by accident soon thereafter. The news broke it was a scandal, lookup the "Levon Affair. it was in the newspapers - it was well known at the time, but you didn't read about it in school - wonder why? Before you even dare comment on this do a basic web search and read about it. This is one example.

Read Victor Ostrovsky's "By means of Deception" and "the Other Side of Dec eption" read "Every Spy's a Prince."

Behind every media factoid is a larger context of causes and Meta causes and influences.
Question what information you receive, from books, from me, from this forum, from little pink fairies you meet on the astral plane. Naïve acceptance of "facts" that feel good to you is irresponsible.

True spiritual growth requires the ability and willingness to face what you don't like facing, consistently.

FIN.

Selski

We all find nonsenses to believe in; it's part of being alive.

El-Bortukali

Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

Beth

Quote from: kamalsI begin with and end with this: True spiritual growth requires the ability and willingness to face what you don't like facing, consistently. Ruthlessly.
I agree wholeheartedly kamals, with this and with your comments about 'questioning' your own assumptions.  I have found in the past 3 decades of my adult life that unless you ask questions, you will receive no answers--and--that the beauty of knowing how to ask questions, and coming to enjoy the process, gives the added benefit of finding new questions with every answer that you discover.  That is progress.  That is evolution of the mind.  

A few other general comments:  When people take it upon themselves to become educated outside of their primary education, and outside of their inherited religion, they will find that there is a vast store to be learned about the world in which we live.  Most of the people that know only one religion, or one worldview, see only the differences between 'theirs' and 'others' and usually end up jumping to erroneous conclusions as a result.  Personally, I try to find the similarities in religion first, and only if pertinent to a topic at hand, do I seek the differences.  

Most of the posters on this forum (and so many others) are coming from a Christian background alone--either by still being involved or by trying to disengage from it.  This lack of exposure naturally narrows the scope of understanding. While Christianity is based upon the necessity of 'Jesus' suffering' very few Christians have truly experienced it in its full scope. Not because the opportunity does not present itself, but rather, because they oftentimes turn away from it in denial and forgetfulness.  

For some people, the whole state of 'suffering' is seen as 'needless' and 'inhuman'.  Many of these people then wonder that IF there is a God, then why doesn't God do something to stop it?  Because there is no answer to this, other than first hand, face-to-face experience, many of these people just negate the existence of God at all.  

If I were to offer spiritual advice to any would-be projector, or to any critic of astral projection for that matter, it would be:  When you face your sufferings full-on, see them with all the twists and turns involved, and then see them magnified within the physical world at large, you will then find a real motivation to seek God.  When you truly seek God, don't stop with religion...question even what you find them saying about God, and amazingly enough, when you do, GOD will then show you things that would amaze every pope, saint and prophet that ever lived!  

God is much more vast than any human religion can possibly reflect, and we--as humans--are also more vast than what we see in the mirror everyday.  When we all come to terms with this, we can finally begin to comprehend the vast wonders of the universe and truly begin to seek its true essence.

Ruminations over for now... :wink:

~Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

kamals

You had very interesting insights.

The bugbear of suffering and how we respond to it seems strongly conditioned to our cultural backgrounds and conditions of life. It is, for example, always an interesting thing to me that in American culture Black Christianity (Protestant or catholic) finds a certain valuation and meaning in suffering, that White Protestant churches shy away from. This, I think, is the result of historical conditions. One group's experienced horrific suffering en masse to the point that it's become part of their group identity and it's meaning is transformed, whilst frankly, the other hasn't.

I've noticed much the same about Jewish friends of mine.

These experiences condition us even when we step outside the cultural and religious matrix of our birth. Questions about suffering that may gnaw, for example, as a White American woman of a liberal Protestant or Unitarian church upbringing may (or may not) have a different meaning and ring for a Kshatria Hindu girl in medical school in Cleveland, who was raised in a village 20 miles from Bombay.

It's not just about questioning assumptions, it's about being aware of assumptions to begin with. We are often strongly conditioned by our environments, it isn't  a curse it *is*. Acceptance and poking at our conditioning is key. Some of our conditioning is "good" - it is good that I'm conditioned not to touch light switches with wet hands. When I break this conditioning I sometimes notice little blue sparks arcing behind the space between the switch and it's mounting (sign of bad grounding anyone?)

I think that religious and spiritual growth demands consciousness. Becoming conscious at every step. And courage. And it's not always constant.

Muslims in many parts of the world have experienced suffering, en masse, as a group, that, frankly would be hard to imagine by some people. Explanations of group Karma and so on fall flat on the face when one looks at the broader picture, and those resorting to such explanations have I've noticed a spotty awareness of history.

Native Americans in this country have en masse an experience of backbreaking suffering that still makes many White Americans uncomfortable fully confronting,

Shia Islam has experienced suffering and persecution throughout its history and understanding the history of Shia Islam enables one to understand the phenomena of suicide bombing as it first arose in the Lebanese resistance, and the cult of martyrdom that seems to exist most strongly in some Shia cultures.

Israel as a state has exhibited loathsome behavior historically, that can't be denied when one looks at the broader picture. BUT Jews en masse worldwide have experiences of suffering for THOUSANDS of years that fully explain many facts about the present day state of Israel. Pogrom after pogrom, holocaust, mass expulsions.

Suffering visits communities, civilizations, in ways and for reasons that boggle the human mind's ability to code with it. There are larger meta-cosmic reasons and the EXPERIENCE of suffering can be a profound gift and blessing or a curse, or both. Suffering can transform ones' inner being into light.

Or sink it into the abyss in waves of darkness.

This is true for the individual as well as the group. And the group's experiences can create thought forms, perhaps let us speculate, that are strong, prevalent, and long lasting - or if not create then ATTRACT. Or perhaps both.

It is possible, I believe, for civilizations to have "ghosts" that haunt long after their demise. And for adepts within a civilization to wield certain forces for their benefit or use that, after their worldly passing, continue to be fed by their descendants for ages after, and once these descendants pass into the dust to linger on "the astral plane" and in sundry places ready to be tapped into by the unsuspecting, or the misinformed, or the unprepared. The bugbear of idols, some idols are of thought, all are actually even if they have stone supports upon our mortal coil. "My People and Our Suffering" is an idol, an egregore if you will, a ghost that is daily fed by the real experiences of those feeding it will grow ruddy and strong with.. eh... ketchup :-)

FIN.