How many of you think the occult is evil?

[narfellus]

I didn't think reiki had anything to do with Christianity at all! As for the occult being EEEEEVVVIIILLL, well, that's sort of a broad question, especially considering that Evil can't even be defined properly. And then considering that Universal Providence doesn't look at things in shades of Good and Evil, that complicates it even more. The occult, the way i like to look at at (and i told my mother this the past weekend) is "How the Universe Works beyond what Religion tells You." Not evil persay, but yes, you will have to understand the Negative along with the Positive. That's just how it works.

[Gandalf]

please don't get hung up on terms like 'white magick' vs 'black magick'. They are all the same thing.. channeling own's own innate abilities to connect with the universe. This ability is a tool, a powerful tool but a tool non the less.
Mustardseed is wrong. Yes it can have negative consequences but that does not mean the tool is wrong.
Christians use 'spells' as well. They pray to their god for some desired effect. While they insist this is 'better' somehow since it appeals to their god instead of their own innate ability, this is just a point of view, they feel it justifies the concept of using a higher power to achieve an end. Both approaches have the same end result however. (although christianity, like any religion is self justifying)

Some christians pray to smite their enemies etc. this is wrong, however this does not mean that praying is wrong.
Some magicicians use magick for selfish reason, this does not make magick wrong.
The difference is only in the mind of the christian; for those christians, that is up to them, for the rest of us, dont worry about it, but remember that like any powerful tool, you can end up shooting yourself (or others) in the foot if you dont know what you are doing.

Douglas

PS as for that book review that Runlola quoted... that was the biggest pile of crap I've read in a long time!

[narfellus]

please don't get hung up on terms like 'white magick' vs 'black magick'. They are all the same thing.. channeling own's own innate abilities to connect with the universe. This ability is a tool, a powerful tool but a tool non the less.

Well, i mostly agree with this Gandalf. Summoning an Angel vs. summoning a Demon is no different than adjusting the name, Godrune, and sphere of influence. They are BOTH creations of Divine Providence, and serve a distinct purpose. (not that i have summoned either ritually, but i understand the underlying concepts to an extent).

Christians use 'spells' as well. They pray to their god for some desired effect. While they insist this is 'better' somehow since it appeals to their god instead of their own innate ability, this is just a point of view, they feel it justifies the concept of using a higher power to achieve an end. Both approaches have the same end result however. (although christianity, like any religion is self justifying)

Some christians pray to smite their enemies etc. this is wrong, however this does not mean that praying is wrong.
Some magicicians use magick for selfish reason, this does not make magick wrong.
The difference is only in the mind of the christian; for those christians, that is up to them, for the rest of us, dont worry about it, but remember that like any powerful tool, you can end up shooting yourself (or others) in the foot if you dont know what you are doing.

I wholeheartedly agree. Magic is a tool, prayer is a tool, and PRAYER is a form of magic, although Christians (whom i was raised presbyterian) will deny with a vengeance.  I like to think of it in terms like this:

Everything is ENERGY. Manipulating energy is the act of magic. And like there are different kinds of energy (kinetic, spiritual, heat, gravity, thought, electric, chemical, etc.) different schools of magic and thought over the eons have the desired effect on your area of intention. It takes multiple lives to master anything, like Bach and his music. THAT WAS MAGIC in a sense; from an astral standpoint, he had to practice a long time to show how it could be done. But i'm no master, i'm still learning, i can always be shown new thought patterns and paths i never anticipated. Yet another reason why i love these forums, such brilliant and yearning minds, more so than people i meet in the flesh (unfortunately)

[Tyciol]

Occult just means 'hidden knowledge'. There's nothing evil about that.

[loveregardless]

I just wanted to say that I am so excited to be on this forum I could shriek! And my answer to the original question would be, um...no. I don't believe in "evil" per say. But anyway...I am so glad to have found this place, did I mention I could shriek!  

runlola...that is seriously frightening. It is beyond me how people can be so close minded. She did sound pretty serious...frighteningly serious. (shudder)

And I wholeheartedly agree as well.

I am so glad to have found intelligent people to talk to!!!!!

[Tyciol]

Occult just means hidden knowledge, there is nothing evil about secrets or lost knowledge. It is only how things are used.

I will admit that often, secrets often used for evil would probably be made occult. The good would want to keep it from people because it's dangerous. The evil would want to keep it from others because it's competition, and would reveal it only to servants they know they could manage, very slowly.

That's likely how 'occult' came to be affiliated with darkness,

[Moonburn33]

The Occult practices being labeled evil came from none other than the Catholic church... who discovered that it wasn't good business to encourage a personal relationship with the universe in their clients... i mean cult...er.. I meant devotees... yeah.. that's right

[Gandalf]

I dont accept this. yes the catholic church equate 'occult' with 'evil' but then so do all branches of christianity, with protestantism being no different. Its sad that yet another debate has been subverted to once again attack the catholic church. As I have said before, I am not christian so I dont have a factional agenda here, but i find the whole protesent/catholic antagonism extremelly tiresome.

What annoys me even more is when I read some artcle which pretends to be an objective and critical discussion of christianity in general, only to find that the article has a secret agenda and is actually a protestant attack on catholism, a tediously common occurance, esp in the US.

Douglas

[Tyciol]

I fully agree with you. Not that I don't approve of the Christian sects squabbling with each other (sure makes my life easier...) but it is rather ridiculous. The difference between Protestants and Catholics to me only seems to be that Catholics have a lot more rituals, and honour Mary and the Saints. I'd very much like to honour Mary sometime, she seems like a wonderful girl, and the Saints have done a lot of things so while you shouldn't perhaps worship them, praying to them for specific things might not be altogether bad. As long as one doesn't do it more than Jesus, perhaps pray to both at the same time, just so they don't think you're trying to pray just to the Saints?

[Gandalf]

just thought i'd mention before someone else does that what i said above may sound rich coming from where I live, as Scotland has quite a bad reputation for sectarianism between proddies and cathies (of course nothing like N. Ireland) but still quite bad, esp.  on the east coast Glasgow area...Celtic vs Rangers anyone?

However I wnted to point out that I'm not part of that!

Doug

[clandestino]

Hi Doug !

Hearts v Hibs, too..... I went to plenty of derby games when I lived in Dalkeith as a child, & I still remember the insults that flew past my "innocent" ears !

I fully agree with Tyciol's point...

Occult just means hidden knowledge, there is nothing evil about secrets or lost knowledge.

It all depends on where you stand - a practising christian may see the occult as evil, a non-practising christian may feel otherwise.

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of atheists could not care less, & would view it all as nonsense anyway.... ?

[Bex]

Please, define "occult."

[Tyciol]

Occult means hidden knowledge. There's nothing evil about hiding things that need to be hidden, or that naturally become 'hidden' because so few people are interested in it that it fades into obscurity.

[Bex]

Then I agree with Tyciol.

[Omawna]

'Evil' and 'good' are human made concepts.  Just as others asked "define evil" they have such a wide meaning and interpretation that each person perceives them different.  Tarot and magick is no worse then astral projection and tk.  In my view... the Gods gave us a gift... it would be unwise to reject it....

Blessed be!

[Wronski Feint]

If Occult means hidden knowledge, it is hard to discern whether you should delve into it or not.  I think its hidden for a reason.

If you read the bible the tree of life in the garden of eden contained information that would set man equal to god. "Behold man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever." -Genesis 3:22

So basically, I interpret this as "If man kept his nose where it belonged then he would live blissfully unaware of the knowledge of good and evil, but he had to see what the fruit tasted like." From this point of view I would not do witchcraft or whatever.  So know we know about the evil and all that mess.

Now on the other hand I am a firm believer in pure magick.  If you got problems with demons and the devil bothering you, I think you got a right to protect yourself or others.

Like I said, its a tough one.

[Gandalf]

If you got problems with demons and the devil bothering you, I think you got a right to protect yourself or others.


What 'devil'? From your post i assume you are firmly fixed within the christian view of the universe... so by your world view i guess that any attempt to gain knoweledge of and use 'occult' knowledge (ie 'secret') is an 'evil' thing.

Thats why I dont accept the christian view of the world that you appear to.. I don't even believe in your 'devil'.

But I DO agree with you that there are certain parts of 'occult' ie secret knowledge that may be dangerous for those immature enough to handle it.. but this doesnt mean that the knowledge itself is 'bad' in any way, neither is the act of searching for it..

The issue is making sure there is a good system for those looking into it.. a controled release of info, catered and limited for the particlular stage that the seeker/magician is at... this is where all the secret magickal societies come in and other secret orders.

The church may be right in thinking that just having all this info available to everyone might be harmful, but unfortunatly, they are just as ignorant about the proper meaning of 'occult' knowledge as the people they are trying to 'protect'. So i wouldnt go by their recomendations... but yes, i guess they do perform as service in keeping the 'plebs' out as it were    Its like giving a stone age man a nuclear reactor... could be useful but he's more likely to blow himsefl up with it!

[Potential]

Occult means Secret Science. Back in the day herbalists were called witches, because they knew about the psychedelic effects of certain plants. The neighboring Christians back in the day were very ignorant, and thus made false accusations based on superstitious beliefs. Now-a-days people are better educated.

You want to know what's really evil, ignorance is. There's a difference between stupid and ignorance. Stupid is, you know better but you don't apply. Ignorance, you simply don't know any better. And usually not knowing about something can be painful and sometimes deadly. Since most people identify evil with something painful, ignorance would sum up the root of all evil.

So in regards to Occult being Evil, totally wrong. It is a secret science because mainstream view is ignorant towards it. The best way to overcome this is thru Proper Understanding, training in the ways of Wisdom. Ask, Seek, Knock.

[narfellus]

I try to tell my mother about the definition of occult as "hidden knowledge". She's a deeply spiritual and religious person (not fanatically by any means) but the word "occult" to her ear has become synonymous with "black magic." This is an unfortunate side-effect of religion brainwashing her, although Christianity has given her strengths in many other ways.  I've had to refrain from telling her too much about the true nature of God and Existence as i've come to understand it, because it deals very much with an intangible spirit world, and on some level that concept frightens her, thus she chooses not to understand it.  My whole motivation came from a deep urge for just the opposite: to understand as much as i could. It takes quite a few lifetimes to master it.

[tiberseptim]

You want to know what's really evil, ignorance is. There's a difference between stupid and ignorance. Stupid is, you know better but you don't apply. Ignorance, you simply don't know any better. And usually not knowing about something can be painful and sometimes deadly. Since most people identify evil with something painful, ignorance would sum up the root of all evil.

So by your definition, if i coolly; calmly reflected upon a decision such as cold blooded murder (which i might add would be considered evil by many), then it would not be evil by your standards?
Not that i even believe in right or wrong, good or evil, its all subjective i don't even bother with it. You can do destructive things or creative things, you can help people or harm people, but each is necessary.
As for the occult being evil, if you read what i wrote of course i don't think its evil. Some people choose to work for themselves, some choose to work for others, and some just don't care.

[Tyciol]

I try to tell my mother about the definition of occult as "hidden knowledge". She's a deeply spiritual and religious person (not fanatically by any means) but the word "occult" to her ear has become synonymous with "black magic." This is an unfortunate side-effect of religion brainwashing her, although Christianity has given her strengths in many other ways.  I've had to refrain from telling her too much about the true nature of God and Existence as i've come to understand it, because it deals very much with an intangible spirit world, and on some level that concept frightens her, thus she chooses not to understand it.  My whole motivation came from a deep urge for just the opposite: to understand as much as i could. It takes quite a few lifetimes to master it.

Ditto. You want to make them understand, but when you try reading them the Satanic Bible they just cover their ears and go 'la la la I am not lis-ten-ing'.

Doesn't it suck how they can put as many crucifixes and Marys (despite us not being catholic) as they want, but if we want to put up a Baphomet or a Star of David they freak out?

[xtronizer]

evil? let's go back to purposivism... what's your purpose of using a spell/magic/ritual whatever... whether your a christian or satanist or atheist or whatever, the outcome of your action is what we judge as evil or good