Islamic Knowledge versus Western ideas

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Abraham

This is an article by a brother named Abdul aziz, formerly know as David Myatt. He went through a lot of stages, from pagan to christian to nazi and white supremacist. 6 years ago he embraced Islam and is  Muslim alhumdulillah(praise be to Allah). Some more of his articles can be found here: http://alhaqq.jeeran.com

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In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful


Islamic Knowledge verses Western Ideas
A Personal View




There is a fundamental, and important, difference between the Western way of thinking and education - and thus  the 'understanding' and perspective this gives individuals - and the Islamic way.

The Western way, the Western perspective,  depends upon the notions, the ideas, of 'progress' and individual 'enlightenment' through an academic study based upon  separate subjects, such as Physics, biology, history, music and so on. The 'understanding ' that this Western perspective provides depends upon this academic study of subjects and the accumulation of information. When enough information about a subject is accumulated (and memorized) there is said to be a 'mastery' of that subject,  often formally acknowledged through some academic qualification produced by some Western institution.

The Islamic perspective is totally different. It rests upon the foundation that all true knowledge is numinous - that is, sacred: a path to dhikr, to awareness and remembrance of Allah.  The Islamic quest for  knowledge is a quest for an understanding of the Signs of Allah  - an understanding of Allah as the Creator of all being and all beings. Knowledge is a way to understanding the Unity of Existence, and to acquire knowledge one needs the tools of learning - reason, logic, the ability to judge and, equally important, a piety, an acknowledgment of how we, as individuals, were created by Allah, should be grateful to Him and strive to remember Him.

Furthermore, Islam totally opposes the Western idea of progress  in this world and the renunciation of the past, of tradition, that this almost always involves. For  Islam, the perfect, ideal society existed at Madina during the time of the Prophet Muhammad  just as the ideal human being existed in the figure of the Prophet himself.

All our  Islamic striving in this world is a desire to emulate these ideals, this perfection, which once actually existed.

In the West, the ideal society is always said to exist 'in the future' - and it always involves some person, or some group,  race or nation, or whatever, believing they are special, that they have some kind of 'Destiny' and have been somehow chosen to make this ideal future real.  Very often, this idea of Destiny involves Imperialism - that is, the exploitation of others through colonialism because the imperialists believe they have a 'right' to do this, either because it is their Destiny, or because they are chosen or 'better' than the people they conquer.

This Western idea of progress, of an ideal (but impractical) society with a Destiny to make it real, is perhaps one of greatest misfortunes the West has produced, for since its genesis in the culture of ancient Greece (witness Plato, and Alexander) it has caused immense suffering and destruction.

The traditional Islamic way of education strove to provide Muslims with the tools of learning - so that, once having these tools, an individual was capable of making reasoned judgements and of understanding the Signs of Allah.  The Western way of education is to present and accumulate facts (and in case of the so-called social sciences, abstract ideas and theories) and completely ignore not only the underlying Unity behind the diverse academic subjects, but also piety in the individual. Thus the Western way becomes a way away from Unity, away from God, away from an awareness and remembering of what is sacred, just as there is no attempt to teach individuals to reason, to judge, to cultivate that excellence of character which arises from upholding morality and being aware of God.




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Abdul Aziz
"Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful" [Quran 27:64]

MindFreak


thesickmoon

Quote from: AbrahamThis is an article by a brother named Abdul aziz, formerly know as David Myatt. He went through a lot of stages, from pagan to christian to nazi and white supremacist. 6 years ago he embraced Islam and is  Muslim

What's he gonna be next, and for how long?
"Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage."
--Ronald D. Moore, March 12, 2005

Beth

Abraham,

There is one very simple, but extremely important fact that you are neglecting to consider.  You wrote:
QuoteThis Western idea of progress, of an ideal (but impractical) society with a Destiny to make it real, is perhaps one of greatest misfortunes the West has produced, for since its genesis in the culture of ancient Greece (witness Plato, and Alexander) it has caused immense suffering and destruction.
If it had not been for the work of Plato, Aristotle and the goal of 'Reason' in human thought, and then ... Alexander spreading this knowledge, and Greek culture in general, throughout the Ancient Near and Middle East ... then Judaism would never have been more than a bunch of oral stories told around campfires in the desert, nor would it have ever provided the necessary root system for Christianty or Islam!  

Also, the actual religion of Islam was created and developed in great part in response to the social and political climate of the early medieval period, which was necessary for Islam to have even been conceived.  This social and political climate was, by this time, more reflective of Roman government as it had absorbed Greek and other ideas along the way.

Bottom line, for better or for worse, without Greek culture, and then Roman culture after it, none of the three major western religions would even exist...

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Beth

p.s.  Islam is greatly indebted to both Plato and Aristotle for a great deal of its political philosophy via the works of Al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes.
Quick Reference: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/arab-y67s11.html

And don't forget its dependence upon Judaism and Christianity for its very foundation...

p.s.s. So, be very careful in trying to cut the roots out of a full grown tree.  Common sense tells that if you do, you must also be prepared for the whole tree to die....

Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

ubiquitous

cosmic consciousness

The Vatican killed Galileo, he stated that everything does not revolve around the earth it revolves around the sun!!!.
u can't have truth outselling the bible so his written work was burnt(except a few copy's for the pope and his cardinals!)
death on there conning science
how do u spell conscience

The way in which Muslims Christians and Jews squabble and big up there pastimes is ancient and unrequired, imagine the whole world under the Taliban i remember the first time i heard of them when i was young and thought they were called this because theywould'nt allow t.v's ta li ban!

If western philosophy is so sick why do the best of the eaststudyhere,all the great physicists like newton Maxwell Faraday e.c.t did more for man kinds quality of life and survival than muhammed and Jesus ever did!!!!


As long as terrorism doesn't stop space exploration then we can find another planet and look back and say who needs religion!!!!!!!

god is like a superposition its in the soil the trees the stars the fruits and the conscious its a immanence, an omnipresence.

I liken belief systems to Len's of various curvature
the shallower the curvature the shallower the angle of acceptance if u  want more resolution on this planet then open up your angle of acceptance.

if u were brought up in a mosque or a church  
and follow these scriptures blindly throughout your life, thinking one is more than the other then you would make a weak lens!.
4Ur2b3

Sasuke

I offer him complete congratulations on finding a good, moral religion that he can follow in good faith. I don't agree with all of his points, but I will concede that North America should focus much more on the consequences of the past - if we realize what we are doing that is making things wrong, we won't be inclined to do so again.

However, I think it's unfair to paint the entirety of the so-called "western world" with the brush of imperialism. Canada has never tried to impose something like that in any way, and I would say that most North Americans agree that every nation should have the right to self-govern. The government does not always reflect the people, and the people do not always reflect the government.

In addition, just because we have different ideals and goals to strive for does not mean we are wrong - nor does it mean Islam is wrong. I think we could learn a lot about strong faith in the face of anything from Islam.

I think do think, however, that it isn't prudent to suggest that Islam is better than anything else in the same piece of work that attacks the western world for thinking of themselves as better than anyone else.

majour ka

Although they echoe some truthes, all religions are flawed and are man made concepts

. If there wasent religion there would be good people bieng good and behaving spiritualy and bad people doing the opposite. And the good people dont need any book or rules on how to treat our selves or others.

ubiquitous


Leyla

QuoteFor Islam, the perfect, ideal society existed at Madina during the time of the Prophet Muhammad
:shock: OMG, are you kidding???

Society at that time was brutal and primitive, what with slavery, war, disease, oppression. Human life isn't worth much now, but back then your odds of being violently murdered were ten times greater.

That's no ideal society. (Especially if you're a woman.)

Beth

That's very true Leyla...the political and social climate was at such a hopelessly low point, that the very reason behind Mohammed's writing was in response to the fact that Christianity was not being an effective religious moral influence for the people and the government (what there was of one) was so totally corrupt that any kind of 'civilized society' was almost extinct.

While Mohammed and his family get the credit, post hoc, for the success of Islam, it was in truth the wealth of certain individuals that got it off the ground and assured its success.

Likewise, Christians give the apostles all the credit for the success of Christianity---after the fact---but the truth is, there were $$$big Roman bucks$$$ behind its ultimate success.

It takes a lot money for a religion to survive and grow--and you can be sure that plenty of money found itself provided to Islam in the earliest centuries of the religion...which was just a repeat of Constantine and Christianity. Islam had a new and updated message in the Koran, it found financial sponsorship to back it, and viola'...another theocracy was born...

Finally, where there are $$$big bucks$$$ to be found behind one reigning entity, then 'history can be written' the way the holder of the pocketbook wants it to be written...and this is surely the case if Muslims think that 7th century Medina was anything close to being "an ideal society."

~Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

ubiquitous

absolutely$$$$$$$$££££££££££ is the true prophet/profit most people worship,back then and still now.The leaders in Christianity and Islam just use there religion as a guise for power wealth and adulation, like most of us i suppose but good people go a bout it on there own merit rather than using historical trash.

Abraham

Quote from: BethThat's very true Leyla...the political and social climate was at such a hopelessly low point, that the very reason behind Mohammed's writing was in response to the fact that Christianity was not being an effective religious moral influence for the people and the government (what there was of one) was so totally corrupt that any kind of 'civilized society' was almost extinct.

While Mohammed and his family get the credit, post hoc, for the success of Islam, it was in truth the wealth of certain individuals that got it off the ground and assured its success.

Likewise, Christians give the apostles all the credit for the success of Christianity---after the fact---but the truth is, there were $$$big Roman bucks$$$ behind its ultimate success.

It takes a lot money for a religion to survive and grow--and you can be sure that plenty of money found itself provided to Islam in the earliest centuries of the religion...which was just a repeat of Constantine and Christianity. Islam had a new and updated message in the Koran, it found financial sponsorship to back it, and viola'...another theocracy was born...

Finally, where there are $$$big bucks$$$ to be found behind one reigning entity, then 'history can be written' the way the holder of the pocketbook wants it to be written...and this is surely the case if Muslims think that 7th century Medina was anything close to being "an ideal society."

~Beth

Id like tos ee your proof for any of that.

Thanks,

Abraham
"Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful" [Quran 27:64]

Beth

Abraham,

I am not sure where you live, or what resources you have access to, but check for books on the actual history of the ancient near and middle eastern region---during the 5th-10th centuries.  There is a new book that I heard a review of on National Public Radio (here in the US) by a historian who takes a socio-religious approach to looking at the area vis-a-vis the crumbling Roman Empire.  

I am not a specialist on Islam; I am primarily studied in religion in general, most especially in the origin and development of Judaism and Christianity, and how civilization was affected by the rise of these religions.

I also do not know how Muslims teach their own history, of both the religion itself and the history of the ancient near/middle east, but I do know that only a very small minority of Christians actually know the real history of their religion.  Most Christians know only the 'history' as told by the Bible alone, and as sanctioned by the modern church, but not the real history of the religion as it was originally conceived and developed through the centuries.

As far as my comment on the $$$ is concerned, that is just economic common sense.  "Money" (and lots of it) have always been required to sustain religious movements--whether the ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Romans, Christians, Muslims, the later European monarachies of France, Germany or Britian, and now the US and Arab nations--the detailed histories of western religions clearly show that the most powerful people have money, and it is the religious choice of the most powerful that can make or break any social movement, most especially religions.

If I can find that most recent book I heard about, I will post the author and title, but until then, just look to actual 'history books' and not just religious material.

~Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Abraham

I can see how wealth played a crucial part in the devellopment of certain idealogies. But you cant apply it to every single idealogy. My point was that if you are going to apply such an idea to the history of the development of Islam then bring your proof.

Thanks,

Abraham
"Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful" [Quran 27:64]

Beth

Abraham,

This is Economics 101.  This is knowledge of the development of societies ad religions. This is also common sense.  

If you are so sure that this is not the case, then why don't you show me where Islam is, and has always been, a poor peasant religion ...

and then ...

explain to me how the religion was financed without a lot of money...

Mosques are not cheap...especially when topped with golden domes.

~Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Leyla

This must be why pagans are so few in number. Its ignored by major political groups because they can't figure out a way to turn a profit. It has no major churches, and nobodys going to ask you for money.

thesickmoon

Quote from: LeylaThis must be why pagans are so few in number. Its ignored by major political groups because they can't figure out a way to turn a profit. It has no major churches, and nobodys going to ask you for money.

True! That, and every time they get something going, they start fighting against each other. Sad, really.
"Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage."
--Ronald D. Moore, March 12, 2005

NickJW

I'll stick to science and history instead of the Pseudoscience. Not to mention someone who was Christian, and then a White Supremecist has no intelligence in my eyes. Both, especially even considering being a Nazi, racist against your own sub-species automatically shows me that the guy who wrote that article dosen't make wise choices, is easily influenced and dosent think for himself. For him Pagan, Christian, Nazi were all mistakes, and soon Islam will be a mistake for him too. What religion will he be next week? How can you respect someone's opinion who obviously dosen't know what he's looking for?

El-Bortukali

I honestly don't see the point of Religions ;o
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

ubiquitous

So you will never go to heaven El-Bortukali, you infidel how dare thee ask of religious points whilst walking in these holy lands u non believer for moses jesus and muhammed are watching you BEWARE

El-Bortukali

Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

Leyla

thesickmoon- Yes, there is the saying "organizing pagans is like herding cats." Orginizations have to have a higherarchy, and higherarchy what drove them out of organized religion in the first place.

The only thing we manage to pull off is all meeting together in large groups a few times a year for the festivals. (Par-tay!)  Where there's honey mead, a few good bands, and immodest dancing 'round the bonfire.

Beats the hell out of forming an army and trying to take over the earth.

kamals

Leyla it happens in every Religion, and every culture, and every society, to degrees. For example. Look at what the Buddhists did to their opposition in Tibet over the centuries...

Hierarchical tendencies are manifest in every social organization.
There is a pecking order among anarchists. I should know, I used to be one.

Nothing in this world is meant to last, Islam's prime was a moment, this is the myth of eternal return every traditional religion, pagan and non pagan, holds dear. The moment in time in which the sacred impregnates the mundane order with a new degree of significance. Return to this is cyclical, the Rites of Spring repeated, Samhain and Beltane, Eid al Adha, Eid al-Fitr,  Easter and Christ's annual resurrection. Decay is inevitable and in a sense beautiful and necessary, for we reside in the world of contingent.

Organized religion is no more the problem than, well, disorganized religion. Both are decays from an original impetus. Islam was never intended as an Empire. Once it became one, the best voices within Madina cried out, the Sufis, the Ahl al-Bayt. This is as it should be, for eternity is the only constant and the slide into decadence and decay reminds us of eternity.

The orgasm's twitch we seek to prolong, that brief burst of ecstasy and pleasure. Prolonged too long it would become unbearable. Pain.

The ideas involved are irrelevant, what concerns us, well me anyway, is the tendency towards hierarchical structures that is a reoccurring theme in the history of humanity.

Life today is as brutal now as it was in Muhammad's day, full stop. YOU may not see it, but there are others who have and everyday live in brutality you wouldn't believe. The degree of brutality is masked for those of us in some classes but not to others. "Good part if town" versus "Bad part of town".

Really some people have no idea what takes place 2 miles from their backyards. 2 blocks down from a college student bar, in a small dive, someones face was blown away by a gun in daytime because he laughed at a punchline that wasn't a punchline. The killers ran into the street firing guns in the air, one bullet passed through the bathroom window of a tenant in an Apartment building I manage. Kill for a thrill eh?

I was dating a girl who once lived in Russia, her boyfriend was Mafiosi like, well, most of the guys in his town. The degree of damage his body took in an everyday's work at the office (so to speak) would be ghastly for a weaker man, one supposes. There it seems the guys she knew got knifed, stabbed, ears sliced off, guts sliced open and stitched back in the nick of time, with alarming regularity.

I used to live in a neighborhood in our nations capital in which twice monthly someone got his or her brains blown onto the sidewalk. And I didn't even live in a "bad" neighborhood there :-)

The human experience is perennial, hence my general rejection of the "spirit of the age" same passions, same loves, same lusts, same hates, same hopes, same dreams - any pagan would recognize the cyclical and non linear nature of the seasons and the wheel of life as it spins. For a Muslim like me who sees how little things actually do change, I see certain teachings as having utility irrespective of the age.

What moved the Arab pagans , Christians, and Muslims of Muhammad's day moves us today. Same story, different verse and chorus. War, manipulation, violence towards woman and man alike, sexual, and otherwise, are all equally constants. Just as love, goodness, peace, and the light, healing connections, community bonds.

The same come hither smile and wink that moved me to do certain things on a certain night would have been given by a young girl in the 2nd century and done the same for her man back then.

A campfire and song is a campfire and song in 6th century Mecca, 1st century Gaul, 19th century Vermont, or 21st century Canada. The wine that caused a friend to puke on my shoes a few nights ago would have caused her great-grandmother to have the same reaction. We are the seed of our ancestors. The fire that moved in their veins moves in ours.

There is no progress. The best dreams of a progressive age devolves into the ultraviolence of it's spawn:

"So what, it's your own problem to learn to live with
Destroy us, or make us slaves
We don't care, it's not our fault that we were born too late
A screaming headache on the promised age
Killing time is appropriate...
To make a mess and f--- all the rest, we say, we say
So what?..." - Ministry, "So What"

It's the eternal return. We stand before eternity seeing the symbols and NOT SEEING THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE. We see the signs but don't see them. Every passing moment is eternal and passing at the same time.

thesickmoon

Quote from: Leylathesickmoon- Yes, there is the saying "organizing pagans is like herding cats." Orginizations have to have a higherarchy, and higherarchy what drove them out of organized religion in the first place.

The only thing we manage to pull off is all meeting together in large groups a few times a year for the festivals. (Par-tay!)  Where there's honey mead, a few good bands, and immodest dancing 'round the bonfire.

Beats the hell out of forming an army and trying to take over the earth.

If we took over the earth, there'd be more parties. Better ones, too.
"Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage."
--Ronald D. Moore, March 12, 2005