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Author Topic: Jesus  (Read 8328 times)
shedt
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2004, 20:41:44 »

that is why I asked if they can read Hebrew or Greek Gandalf. And even if they can, do they have the original copies ? every year, how many words do you think are changed in the Bible ? I can think of a couple instances where in the translation from Hebrew things are changed, on purpose, too fit the meaning more-so of the person or group that is translating. the words don't quite fit into how they believe, so they change it. but it's still makes no difference, because it's not the same thing.
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Arcane
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2004, 23:54:53 »

Since stories from the bible can be traced back to summerian times, with significant changes, you would have thought that people would have realised that the bible has been copied with a very large artistic license. How can anyone take it seriously without question?
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2004, 23:54:53 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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exothen
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2004, 00:58:14 »

Arcane,

Haha...rofl. Perhaps you would like to share which stories and then share all your sources for this assertion.

shedt,

 
quote:
that is why I asked if they can read Hebrew or Greek Gandalf. And even if they can, do they have the original copies ?


If you mean can I read Hebrew or Greek, I can't, not yet. But there are many that can. As for original copies, if you mean the autographs, then no. But there are about 25,000 Greek, Latin, and other manuscripts of the NT that verify the NT's accuracy to 99+ %.

 
quote:
I can think of a couple instances where in the translation from Hebrew things are changed, on purpose, too fit the meaning more-so of the person or group that is translating. the words don't quite fit into how they believe, so they change it.


Well...don't leave us hanging! Please do share your evidence with us. You may also want to look at the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah which verifies the accuracy of copies that are hundreds of years newer.

See, the problem in this forum is that everyone states that truth can be found everywhere, or that all religions are true. Yet, the contradiction comes when they deny that Christianity has any truth to it. Please, someone, tell me how that works.
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Arcane
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2004, 03:27:49 »

i was tired and annoyed when i wrote that last post (30 hours, no sleep) and wouldnt normally have bothered.

I would be happy to quote some sources, but all my books are back home.(im a uni student and am not going home till june).

I'll see if i can find something on the web, if i can manage to find time.
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shedt
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2004, 18:02:31 »

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

quote:
Forgeries* in the Bible
 Matthew 6:13: The Lord's Prayer traditionally ends: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." This seems to have been absent from the original writings 6

 Matthew 17:21 is a duplicate of Mark 9:29. It was apparently added by a copyist in order to make Matthew agree with Mark.
But Mark 9:29 also contains a forgery*; this makes Matthew 17:21 a type of double-layered forgery*. 5

 John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an "orphan story" because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.

It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus' ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus' stance on the death penalty.

 Mark 9:29: Jesus comments that a certain type of indwelling demon can only be exorcised through "prayer and fasting" (KJV) This is also found in the Rheims New Testament. But the word "fasting" did not appear in the oldest manuscripts. 5 New English translations have dropped the word.

 Mark 16:9-20: The original version of Mark ended rather abruptly at the end of Verse 8. Verses 9 to 20, which are shown in most translations of the Bible, were added later by an unknown forger*. The verses were based on portions of Luke, John and other sources.

 Luke 3:22: This passage describes Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist. According to Justin Martyr, the original version of this verse has God speaking the words: "You are my son, today have I begotten thee." Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, and other ancient Christian authorities also quoted it this way. 1 The implication is that Jesus was first recognized by God as his son at the time of baptism. But a forger* altered the words to read: "You are my son, whom I love." The altered passage conformed more to the evolving Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God at his birth, (as described in Luke and Matthew) or before the beginning of creation (as in John), and not at his baptism.

 John 5:3-4: These verses describe how "a great multitude" of disabled people stayed by the water. From time to time an angel arrived, and stirred the waters. The first person who stepped in was cured. This passage seems strange. The process would not be at all fair, because the blind could not see the waters being stirred, and the less mobile of the disabled would have no chance of a cure. Part of Verse 3 and all of Verse 4 are missing from the oldest manuscripts of John. 3 It appears to be a piece of free-floating magical text that someone added to John.

 John 21: There is general agreement among liberal and mainline Biblical scholars that the original version of the Gospel of John ended at the end of John 20. John 21 appears to either be an afterthought of the author(s) of John, or a later addition by a forger*. Most scholars believe the latter. 4

 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services. It is obvious that verses 14:33b to 36 are a later addition, added by an unknown counterfeiter* with little talent at forgery.* Bible scholar, Hans Conzelmann, comments on these three and a half verses: "Moreover, there are peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought. [within them]." 2 If they are removed, then Verse 33a merges well with Verse 37 in a seamless transition. Since they were a later forgery*, they do not fulfill the basic requirement to be considered inerrant: they were not in the original manuscript written by Paul. This is a very important passage, because much many denominations stand against female ordination is based on these verses.

 Revelation 1:11: The phrase "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and," (KJV) which is found in the King James Version was not in the original Greek texts. It is also found in the New King James Version (NKJV) and in the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) The latter are basically re-writes of the original KJV. Modern English, is used, but the translators seem to have made little or no effort to correct errors. The Alpha Omega phrase "is not found in virtually any ancient texts, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive 'A Textual Commentary' on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition (New York: United Bible Societies, 1994..." 7

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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2004, 18:02:31 »



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shedt
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2004, 18:08:38 »

quote:
* Note re: forged and counterfeit writings:
We are using these terms with reference to today's value systems. For example, if someone wrote in 1999 an essay in the form of an encyclical by Pope John XXIII, and attempted to pass it off as an unknown work of the Pope, then we would consider it a forgery or counterfeit. If someone write today a speech in the style of George Washington and tried to publish it as if it were written by the first President, we would also consider it a forgery.

But things were a little different in the 1st and 2nd century CE. It was quite an accepted practice at that time for followers of a great philosopher or religious thinker to write material which emulated their leader. They passed it off as if that leader wrote it. This was not considered unethical at the time. We use the term forger and counterfeiter in this essay to emphasize that the passages were written by person or persons unknown. It does not necessarily indicate that the passages are any less valid than other texts in the Bible. However, it is clear that they were not written by the original author(s).

There were dozens of gospels, large numbers epistles, and even a few books on the style of Revelation that were considered religious texts by various movements within the early Christian church. When some of these were selected to form the official canon of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), the main criteria was whether the book was written by an apostle or someone very close to an apostle. The canon was regarded as inerrant, as inspired by God; it still is by conservative Christians. Liberal theologians have reached a consensus that many books in the New Testament were not written by the authors that they claim to be written by. This puts their legitimacy in question. We also know that unknown persons later inserted their own writings into some  books.

Some of the books that liberal theologians believe were not written by their original authors are:

 Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (a.k.a. The Pentateuch, the 5 Books of Moses, the Books of the Law, the Law, the Torah). These state in numerous places that they were written by Moses. But mainline and liberal theologians have long accepted the "Documentary Hypothesis" which asserts that the Pentateuch was written by a group of four authors, from various locations in Palestine, over a period of centuries. Each wrote with the goal of promoting his/her own religious views. A fifth individual cut and pasted the original documents in to the present Pentateuch.

 The authors of the gospels claim to have been eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry. Yet liberal theologians believe that the gospels were written during the period 70 to 100 CE by writers who had only second-hand knowledge about Jesus.
 
The text of various Pauline epistles state that they were written by Paul. However, liberal theologians believe that Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus were written by persons unknown, mostly in the 2nd century, many decades after Paul's death.  
 
Other epistles of unknown authorship, according to religious liberals, are Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 1, 2 & 3 John, and Jude.
 
Religious liberals have concluded that Revelation was written by an unknown author - perhaps a Jewish Christian whose primary language was Aramaic.



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exothen
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2004, 22:03:18 »

shedt,

Yes, there are some discrepancies between texts. But as I stated, the Bible is still considered 99+ % accurate using textual criticism. We, unfortunately, do not have the original autographs. Why some texts say things that others do not, I don't know. While it is possible some zealous person added things in, we cannot rule out that they had access to manuscripts that we do not have. Having said that, it is important to note that none of these discrepancies contradicts the message of the Bible. And, of course, one must remember that there is a lot of scholarship floating around that isn't very good. Such as the stuff in your next post.

I seriously question Religious Tolerance's sincerity in promoting religious tolerance as they are very biased against orthodox, conservative Christianity. In your second post it is very important to note their repeated use of "liberal theologians." Do they post any rebuttals of anything you have posted from a conservative point-of-view? If I had the time I would look for information on every verse you have posted.

Most of these liberal theologians don't have a leg to stand on and their scholarship has been effectively dismantled by many a conservative theologian. Liberals use very unhistorical methods to try and arrive at the historical truth of Christ and Christianity. Many also reject orthodox teachings and beliefs that define what Christianity is and who a Christian is. In other words, many of them are not Christian. Again, if I had the time, I have a lot I could post to refute the arguments of the liberal theologians in your second post.

Be sure to check out all sources, not just the liberal ones.
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shedt
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2004, 23:36:11 »

you can change the whole meaning of a sentance with one word. Translating is much different and complex then this.

Liberals ?

The problem i have is with conservatives, esp. the kinds who change words and try thier hardest too cover this up.

it's like war, the winner is the one who records the history.
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exothen
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2004, 19:52:59 »

quote:
The problem i have is with conservatives, esp. the kinds who change words and try thier hardest too cover this up.

it's like war, the winner is the one who records the history.


It doesn't take much to see that the liberals are the ones doing very unscholarly work. It is the conservatives who are striving to keep the Bible as it has been for centuries. The liberals completely change the texts and what they mean to come up with a gospel that ignores 1800 years of church history. This is a very serious problem these days.
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shedt
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2004, 22:36:09 »

quote:
Originally posted by exothen

quote:
The problem i have is with conservatives, esp. the kinds who change words and try thier hardest too cover this up.

it's like war, the winner is the one who records the history.


It doesn't take much to see that the liberals are the ones doing very unscholarly work. It is the conservatives who are striving to keep the Bible as it has been for centuries. The liberals completely change the texts and what they mean to come up with a gospel that ignores 1800 years of church history. This is a very serious problem these days.



who are the "liberals"

who are the "conservatives"

which "flavour" of the Bible and Christianity is the "true" one ?
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exothen
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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2004, 15:20:22 »

The liberals are ones who reject the historicity of the Bible, the miralces, resurrection and deity of Christ, and typically accept all the "other" writings about Christ including the gnostic gospels. This includes such groups as the Jesus Seminar and people like Bishop John Shelby Spong.

Conservatives are those who accept what the liberals reject and reject what the liberals accept. They hold to the fundamentals of the faith which have been believed for 2000 years.

 
quote:
which "flavour" of the Bible and Christianity is the "true" one ?


Not too sure what you mean by "flavour," but in keeping in line with the discussion, the liberals and their loose interpretations of the Bible are most certainly not the "true" ones.
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2004, 05:54:11 »

i agree with exothen: too many people don't like the truth and so they try and manipulate it to something more appetizing... and making it no longer the truth.

"You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" does that apply to me? does that apply to you? can we handle the truth? if it hurts to believe at the beginning, it's more likely in line with the truth than if it feels good. cause the truth is, we aren't perfect as we are. we all have negative things about us, and that's what hurts: learning that we, you and i, suck [Wink].

but as you seek to get rid of the suckiness, that's when the truth starts hurting less, because the truth shows that you care and that you are becoming a better person (which everyone likes to know [Smiley] ) and not just deluding yourself into thinking you are a good person [|)].

~kakkarot
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Targa
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2004, 04:26:26 »

You do not have to be a Christian or believe "Jesus saves you".  How do you think non-christian souls survive? [Smiley]

Jesus was a human, just like every other human, except he was enlightened.  Of course, he's a "special soul", and even though he's our brother I think he deserves alot of love and respect.  He's definitely on a higher level than me!  [Smiley] However, there's a big misconception in Christianity that will probably never be cleared up.  "Jesus died for our sins.  Accept him as your savior and all your sins are forgiven.  Once you accept him into your heart you go to Heaven".  WRONG.

Jesus came for one reason and one reason only, that was to bring the Law of Grace.  Up until he was crucified, there was only Universal Law and Karmic Law.  Basically stated, Karmic law is "you get what you give", "an eye for an eye", or "for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction".  Thus, for example, if you had no compassion for handicapped people and constantly ridiculed and belittled them in one lifetime, you would be required by Karmic Law to live a life with some type of handicap, be ridiculed and belittled, until you learned compassion.  Well, when Jesus suffered all that stuff, and then was brutally murdered, he (and this is the crucial point) hadn't done anything to "deserve" (karmically) that punishment and murder.  Egads, it was karmic injustice!  Impossible! Thus, he effectively "broke" the Law of Karma which introduced the Law of Grace.  This is the true meaning of "he died for our sins".  The Law of Grace is:  (using the above example) if, during that first lifetime you realize the error of your ways and sincerely repent and try to learn compassion in that lifetime, your karmic debt is erased under the Law of Grace, and you won't receive "payback" for the things you did.  Thus, in effect, a very nasty person can change their ways and have no karmic debt at the end of their life.

This was vital, because most people do things that hurt other people, even if it's inadvertant.  By the time they mature and find the right path (under the old laws) there was no way to relieve the karmic burden from their younger days, so they'd have to go through life knowing that they'd get "payback" in a future lifetime, no matter how loving they were in this one.  This allows us to "get back on the path of love" without fear of future reprisals.
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Gwathren
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2004, 15:23:29 »

quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot

"You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" does that apply to me? does that apply to you? can we handle the truth?


I can. I know that I am not perfect and I'm not desparetly trying to be either. But every time I do something, I think it over and sometimes I do what I have first judged wrong. But then, afterwards I judge myself and understand what I did wrong. I then see my idiotic side and try to be better.
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exothen
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2004, 06:33:03 »

targa,

 
quote:
Jesus was a human, just like every other human, except he was enlightened.


Then why did he claim to be equal with God? That isn't too enlightening. He was much more than human, he was the Spirit-filled God-man. Much more than any human could ever be.

 
quote:
Of course, he's a "special soul", and even though he's our brother I think he deserves alot of love and respect.


And a lot more. He demands that we give our lives to him and for him. To follow Christ is to lose your life. He deserves our fullest love and devotion, not "a lot of love and respect."

 
quote:
However, there's a big misconception in Christianity that will probably never be cleared up. "Jesus died for our sins. Accept him as your savior and all your sins are forgiven. Once you accept him into your heart you go to Heaven". WRONG.


How is this wrong? You are imposing your beliefs of karmic law and reincarnation on a belief systems that rejects those. You are reinterpreting Christianity through your own beliefs, something which should never be done as it leads one to false conclusions.

 
quote:
Jesus came for one reason and one reason only, that was to bring the Law of Grace.


Hmm...Jesus himself said that he came so that people could "have life" and live it to the fullest (John 10:10). John, in 1 John 3:8 states that "the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work;" this in the context of sin.
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shedt
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« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2003, 22:41:58 »

I was wondering, what if you don't believe Jesus died on the cross, and you don't believe that the teachings in the bible are the teachings that Jesus really taught, would you be a christian ? or are you only a christian if you believe his is "christ"

Must you believe that only he can save you ?

i'm just curious, i'd like too sort out my own beliefs
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