JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY REVEALED AS MYTH

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Mustardseed

Quote from: Jeehad on February 06, 2007, 22:54:10
Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.


Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."



2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open.

OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.


Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam.

Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.

In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".

How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT)

    "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" (18:29)

Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth.

    "We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended" (17:105)

    "Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth" (27:79)

Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous khutbah [friday sermon] that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.

The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?

First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows:

    "Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."

The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said:

    "The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, Salah [prayer] has been described as follows by Sir Arnold:

    "The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected."

Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the Juma'a prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of Juma'a prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.

In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, Zakah [alms tax distributed to the poor], Hajj [pilgrimage to Makkah], Siyam [fasting in Ramadan], have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of Zakah. The genius of Hajj and Siyam has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.

A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following:

    "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."

The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the present day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam:

    "Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind".

The she went on to say:

    "Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."

Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentals of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words:

    "This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."

My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says:

    "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said:

    "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."

Dear Jeehad

I simply cannot do the subject justice. It is now obvious or at least likely that you are just some mideastern fanatic, mindlessly repeating the same story your teachers tell you. Your hypocracy is daunting. Again I blocked out part of your discourse and found your tirade to be someone elses words. All that grand talk about being a scolar and very knowledgable is such a haux. You are probably some scool kid somewhere in the mid east with no opinion of his own so why do I even bother.

Here is what I blocked out

In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".

Here is what Google found

http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/sword.html

Our conversation is nothong but a reiteration of what you find on the net. These thoughts that you seem to think for yourself are articles that you cut and paste :-D .

Don't you get it Jeehad, you are exposed for what a fanatic you are, and totally exposed for all your claims of superior knowledge and religious insight into Islam. You are a bigot and a fake.

Besides that , the very fact that you continue to claim that Islam is NOT a violent religion boggles the mind. This was the issue in the cartoon controversy. Muhammad was portrayed as a violent man and his followers as violent and they basically burned down the mideast with even many of their own followers killed, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE NOT A VIOLENT RELIGION.

In my opinion YOU are the follower of a very violent and immoral man, and I have nothing in common with you, nothing at all.

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Jeehad

First of all, you are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY self sufficiently judgmental. First of all, where is your proof of Muhammad being a violent man? You CLEARLY have not learn anything about Islam and EVEN the bible yourself. See, please provide a defensful quota against the biblical verses I posted? Actually, I never claimed I was a sheikh or scholar. I just said I have tried my best to learn about spirituality and religion as much as I can. I am actually 16 years old. Your making claims without actual proof to defend them. Show me a saying of Muhammad where he orders to murder people? Or perform in violent actions? Muhammed was a VERY VERY VERY peaceful man.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) sent a message to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai:

   "This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world." (Reference: Muslims and Non-Muslims Face to Face by Dr Ahmad H Sakr, isbn: 0911119-31-9)



"God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition." 16:90

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another." 49:13

"The prohibited month - for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited - There is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves."                                                  Holy Qu'ran 2:194



"...approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."
                                                                                          Holy Qu'ran  4:90



"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful." 9:5




Mustardseed

#27
Dear Jeehad

I realise now that you indeed are very young. I therefor apologize for my heated arguments and rash statements. It appears that you are very keen on actually seeking out matters for yourself and I would suggest that you read the following link and consider the matter carefully. I realize that this essay is very foreign to you. You most likely have been brought up by loving and peacefull parents in a environment where violence is condemned, hence the content may not be YOUR reality, yet it is a reality for millions of others who have not been that blessed. Keep an open mind to facts Jeehad and examine these and make up your own mind.

Regards Mustardseed

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/696408/posts
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Novice

Religion is one of those subjects where it is guaranteed that everyone will have different opinions. Your discussions are welcomed to continue, however, please keep the tone respectful towards each other.

Reality is what you perceive it to be.

Jeehad

Quote from: Mustardseed on February 08, 2007, 13:09:19
Dear Jeehad

I realise now that you indeed are very young. I therefor apologize for my heated arguments and rash statements. It appears that you are very keen on actually seeking out matters for yourself and I would suggest that you read the following link and consider the matter carefully. I realize that this essay is very foreign to you. You most likely have been brought up by loving and peacefull parents in a environment where violence is condemned, hence the content may not be YOUR reality, yet it is a reality for millions of others who have not been that blessed. Keep an open mind to facts Jeehad and examine these and make up your own mind.

Regards Mustardseed

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/696408/posts




Your treating me as if I live in a cave? I've read your so called "violence in islam" but none of it is true.First of all, the Quranic verses which he portrayed are COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.Let em give you an example.

Jimmy went to school
jimmy saw john
john hit jimmy
jimmy hit john back
jimmy went back home


The author of the website is condolling "john hit jimmy" OMG LOOK JOHN IS A TERRORIST HES VIOLENT THATS IT JOHN MUST BE PUT IN JAIL. but the reality is Jimmy hot john first and John as the right to defend himself. The Holy Quran tells mankind that indeed we as muslims are able to defend ourselves from enemies(this is not called Jihad the word jihad essentially means to struggle in the way of God). Muhammad had a strict moral code for fighting though, he stated that in battle you cannot harm a plant, tree,animal, or human which is innocent only those who fight against you. And these words are further backed up by the Holy Quran.

"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." (5:2).

"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8).

"God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition." 16:90

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another." 49:13



"The prohibited month - for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited - There is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves."                                                  Holy Qu'ran 2:194



"...approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."
                                                                                       

  2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.



This is EVERY SINGLE verse which speaks about war. Do you see anything violent? The prophet Muhammed had friend whom were Jewish and Christian. In fact, an Islamic holiday is fasting with the Jews because the prophet chose to do so why? To portray his love for ahli kitab the people of the book(Jews Sabians christians etc etc). these alleged allegations are people taking things out of context which should truly truly be understood. I'm still waiting on a rebuttal for those Biblical verses I proposed about bloodshed????

Mustardseed

#30
Quote from: Jeehad on February 06, 2007, 22:54:10
Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.


Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."



2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open.

OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.


Dear Jeehad

Consider this. As Christians we cannot use old testament history as a way to condone killing. The old and the new testament are very sharply separated to a Christian. In a manner of speaking Jesus changed the way we understand God. The birth of Jesus was a parting of ways with the Old. (testament) It is to us merely a Historical book, that shown the linage of Jesus, and not Commandments from God, this is why we call our selves Christians.

The Old Testament is very like the Koran, an eye for an eye tooth for tooth . revenge slaughter war etc.
but all this was condemned in the NEW Testament. Jesus presented us with another way and was a complete spiritual revolution, that many did (do) not understand.

Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5.11

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court." Mt. 5.21-22

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41

Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46

Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another." Mt. 10.22-23

Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt. 10.28

Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25

Jesus said, "I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 18.3

Jesus said, "See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven." Mt. 18.10

Jesus said, "anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." Mt. 20.26-28

If you refuse to love, you must remain dead; to hate your brother is to be a murderer, and murderers, as you know, do not have eternal life in them.
—1 John 3.15
Jesus said, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Mt. 22.40

Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." Mt 25.42-43,45-46

Jesus said, "It is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean." Mk. 7.21-23

Jesus said, "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18

Jesus said, "when you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too." Mk. 11.25

Jesus said, "if anyone has two tunics, he must share with the man who has none, and the one with something to eat must do the same." Luke 3.11

Jesus said, "No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay." Lk 3.14

Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly." Lk. 6.27-28

Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27

Jesus said, "why do you call me, "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?" Lk. 6.46

Jesus said, "What is written in the law? What do you read there? He replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered right," said Jesus "do this and life is yours." Lk 10.26-28

Jesus (on the cross) said, "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing." Lk 23.34

Jesus said, "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John. 8.7

Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples." Jn. 13.34-35

Jesus said, "Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me;" Jn. 14.21

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22

Jesus said, "What I command you is to love one another." Jn. 14.27

Jesus said, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. But it will be on my account that they will do all this, because they do not know the one who sent me." Jn. 15.20-21

Jesus said, "I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but be brave: I have conquered the world." Jn. 16.33

Jesus said, "I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Jn. 17.26

Jesus said, "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36

Like the Lion in Narnia (by C.S. Lewis, he spoke and taught us a deeper truth.


My apologies if I make you feel like you live in a cave, I am sure you do not. I was merely trying to soften the rhetoric between us, and felt quite bad that I had engaged in such a heated debate. I suppose my apology was not accepted. It seems to me that you have made up your mind that I am wrong, and enemy of the truth,that you have been offended and therefore you will not be appeased. There is not much more that I can do. It seems we nolonger are having a discussion about our respective beliefs, but an argument where emotions hurts pride and ego are more important than the sharing of information. If that is the case, I do not want to be a part of it. :cry:

Regards Mustardseed



Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Jeehad

I see how it is in Christianity you believe in "parts of the OT" But doesn't that seem false to you? I mean, its as if your taking a book and ripping out passages of things which "don't suite you." The entire Bible is based upon the ancient Hebrew stories which were later on translated into the modern version of the bible. The NT is actually a continuation of the hebrew stories within the OT which forms this whole Christian ideology. I can find countless number of errors in the bible, contradictions, simple blasphemy and confusing ideologies(I can show you if you like?). First of all, you STILL FAIL to show me any Quranic verses which incite hatred among people YOUR CLAIMING SO but have absolutely no proof at all. I am not angry at you, but your ignorance is overwhelming...

Gandalf

#32
The Hebrew stories which form the core of the OT are themselves derived from even earlier Sumerian legends. The myths of the great flood etc were common mesopotamian myths.

The Jews, being brought up in this cultural environment were no different but they adapted the mythology and interpreted it in their own way, as did everyone else.

For the ealiest stories of the Flood, read the Epic of Gilgamesh.
In the original Sumerian mytholology, it was the Gods who were peeved off with humanity and so decided to wipe the slate clean and start again. The version in the OT replaces 'the Gods' with 'God' but the basic story is the same.

The Jews did us a service as the OT is actually a great compendium of ancient mesopotamian mythology, much of which would have been lost if it had not been recorded. Although interpreted according to their own world view, it is not hard to strip this veneer away and see the ancient stories in their original Sumerian form.

I would definately recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh for those who havent read it. This never got directly included in the OT although the flood element did, but it is even more amazing as it is a direct piece of literature straight from ancient Sumer.

Jeehad:

Nothing develops in isolation or springs up fully formed at once:
Jewish religion and world view was influenced and continued on from ancient mesopotamian religion and mythology, Chirstianity was then influenced through Jewish and pagan neo-platonist thought, and then Islam was a continuation again from Christian thought. That is the way of things.

"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Mustardseed

Quote from: Jeehad on February 11, 2007, 21:07:36
I see how it is in Christianity you believe in "parts of the OT" But doesn't that seem false to you? I mean, its as if your taking a book and ripping out passages of things which "don't suite you." The entire Bible is based upon the ancient Hebrew stories which were later on translated into the modern version of the bible. The NT is actually a continuation of the hebrew stories within the OT which forms this whole Christian ideology. I can find countless number of errors in the bible, contradictions, simple blasphemy and confusing ideologies(I can show you if you like?). First of all, you STILL FAIL to show me any Quranic verses which incite hatred among people YOUR CLAIMING SO but have absolutely no proof at all. I am not angry at you, but your ignorance is overwhelming...

What I said was that Islam is a violent religion. It promores killing infidels if they will not convert, and hate infidels, especially if they oppose Islam or speak up for a different faith. This is evident in a myriad of fatwas and generally known by all. We as Christians do not see the OT and the NT as one book, but Jesus taught a NEW way, and spoke of this often. The NT is as far from the OT in matters of violence and so forth as Communism is from Capitalism. Just imagine if this was not so. Imagine a world in which Christians and Christian nations followed the Islamic principles of converting by sword, imagine a world where every Christian nation was as bloodthirsty and hostile as Israel. The Muslim world would soon be in ruins , wiped out by the Superior weapons and technology of the west.

As for being ignorant this is what the dictionary states is the meaning of the word

Without education or knowledge:
illiterate, , uneducated, uninstructed, unlearned, unschooled, untaught.
See knowledge.

Exhibiting lack of education or knowledge:
backward, benighted, primitive, unenlightened.

Let me assure you that I am not ignorant I might be stupid, in your opinion, I might be aggressive, irritating or arrogant, but I am not ignorant.

To tell you the truth, after having lived in Muslim communities such as Afghanistan Turkey and Iran for many years, it is my firm belief that the masses of Muslim believers are very very ignorant. I would even go so far as to claiming that this is provable. The vast majority of Muslims are, illiterate,,uneducated, unschooled, backward, and primitive just to use some of the definitions from above. As for you I have no way of knowing. At least you can read and spell and express yourself, so I am not sure.

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Gandalf

Mustardseed,

You know, such is the domination of political correctness in Britain today that you would probably not be allowed to say what you just did there.

You might even be accusesed of being a racist or at least 'islama-phobic'!

The doctrine of political correctness is destroying free speech in Britain. I'm sure there is a similar problem in the US, but believe me, its far worse here!
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.


Novice

QuoteImagine a world in which Christians and Christian nations followed the Islamic principles of converting by sword, imagine a world where every Christian nation was as bloodthirsty and hostile as Israel.

umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!

QuoteTo tell you the truth, after having lived in Muslim communities such as Afghanistan Turkey and Iran for many years, it is my firm belief that the masses of Muslim believers are very very ignorant. I would even go so far as to claiming that this is provable. The vast majority of Muslims are, illiterate,,uneducated, unschooled, backward, and primitive just to use some of the definitions from above. As for you I have no way of knowing. At least you can read and spell and express yourself, so I am not sure.

I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.

I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.

I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.
Reality is what you perceive it to be.

Mustardseed

Quote from: Novice on February 12, 2007, 15:37:29
umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!

I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of Christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.

I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.

I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.

I will take that into consideration allthough I do not see the wrong in what I stated. I understand that you would argue as you do but I think that is due to you not having lived in these countries yourself.You argue but could as well say "I guess". One point you are right about is the fact that Muslims and Christians in the USA have the same standard, however that only proves my point. It commonly known that rich Muslim families do everything they can to get their kids a school in Christian USA, as the education is Superior, I think that you are well aware of that fact. The next best is sending them to a Catholic school, in their own or neighboring countries, it is for they educated the most used option. Most fundamentalist schools based on the Koran, are not very sought after by the wealthy and the ones in power. If you as a moderator want me to substantiate these claims I shall gladly do so. If you are trying to silence truth based on political correctness go ahead and censure me. It will not be the first time

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Novice

QuoteIf you as a moderator want me to substantiate these claims I shall gladly do so. If you are trying to silence truth based on political correctness go ahead and censure me. It will not be the first time

My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.

As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.

Reality is what you perceive it to be.

Mustardseed

Quote from: Novice on February 12, 2007, 16:47:25
My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.

As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.



Dear Novice
While it might as many other issues be an inconvenient truth, the fact is that Islam, the masses of Muslims whereever they may live are sadly suffering from a devastating lack of education. This lack is a fact according to various sources, and only tend to further cement the power of various leaders in the mideast. I am not baking baseless claims here but stating fact. Here is a link to Asiatimes see what you think.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GK01Aa01.html

I think that this is a very interesting issue and one that is very pertinent to the current discussion. It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma. The earth being flat comes to mind, as one such issue. I have not in any way stated anything but fact. I do not mean nor do I feel I show disrespect to the Muslim community worldwide but only drawn attention to this to explain why statements regarding science is so easily believed by the masses, making religious aggression the order of the day. As for the Christians in these same countries I challenge your claim. Consider the following excepts of an essay by Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,


According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.

You can read the full article here

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_251_300/status_of_muslim_societies_aroun.htm


This is written by a Muslim not a Christian and accurately describes that factual state of affairs.

I realize that it is a very embarrassing fact and one that is not easily accepted by educated Muslims, but it is a fact nevertheless. If this fact is not allowed in the discussion, I believe a major point is missed. Like in a court case where a confession of an alledged felon is omitted for technical reasons. We as a world are trying to figure out why terrorism and religious/fanatical fervor plays such a major role in Islamic societies today, in order to help these countries regain their self respect and become equal partners in a better world. As you might know I have lived and worked for 30 years in Muslim countries in the medical and educational field, and I feel qualified to comment like I do. If you or others, who have probably never set foot in a Muslim country, challenge my right to this line of argument in the quest for "niceness" and a respectful discussion you are making a mistake.

I do feel that on a personal level Jeehad and I have had some personal issues and have been less than courteous in to each other, I have tried to address this only to be called ignorant. It seems that it is accepted to call Christians anything degrade our Faith with ridicule and slurs, but the moment (we) utter anything in our defense, we are immediately silenced with accusations of  "a lack of respect".

In my humble opinion this attitude in a symptom of Political Correctness, a sickness that is presently devouring western society. I had hoped that this would be different on the Net and more specifically the AP. If you care to draw my attention to the "Broad generalizations" that I make and substantiate your claims I shall be glad to adjust my views and subsequent postings. Just remember that you are not posting to a young unexperienced student, devoid of experience and intellect, and be careful who you silence in the name of "niceness". I find your own knowledge on the subject rather minute, but maybe I am wrong, as I said I would be glad to stand corrected on this issue. I do love and respect each individual in the world, be he of one faith or another, as an equal, spiritually that is, and this very sad fact is very problematic to me, something that I am trying to change and have been for some 30 years.

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Nay

QuoteIn my humble opinion this attitude in a symptom of Political Correctness, a sickness that is presently devouring western society.

I sooooo agree with this political correct sickness...  I'm not claiming to know one thing about this tete a' tete between you two but I think you both have pretty much kept it as calm as can be expected when it comes to such a subject matter.  Both have had their little personal stabs from what I can see.  No harm no foul from where I sit, but that's me.    Heck, where was the political correctness when I was being called all sorts of names under the sun by certain members...??

*rings a bell*  Shake hands and no hitting under the belt.  :-)


Novice

#41
I was weighing in to this topic purely to bring the tone of the thread back to one of respect. If you had read my posts, you will see the I repeatedly used words like "guess", "hypothesize", and phrases like "while I don't have the data". I am not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, and with all due respect to you and Jeehad, the topic does not interest me at all. As a result, I have caveatted everything I've said on the subject.

QuoteIt appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma.

Mustardseed I do not disagree with you at all on this. In fact I completely agree with it. However, my point is still the same. The above issue you raise here can be said just as much about christianity as it can about islam. That is all that I am trying to bring to light. Just the other month christian religious leaders were upset because of the science being taught in schools. They were trying to ban Darwin's theory because it did not allow for the concept of intelligent design. There was a similar incident in Africa last month. A museum was going to display the oldest preserved humanoid ever found. I forget the details, but essentially it takes it one step closer to proving human evolution. The christain leaders attempted to get the artifact banned from public view, but the owners of the museum refuse. They have hired additional security as the leaders have promised protests when the exhibit opens.

I think it is very difficult for any religious person to view their religion objectively. This is one of the reasons I rarely read, and even more rarely, post in this section.

QuoteMy point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted,...

I use the term "broad generalization" exactly as I defined it above -- based on what was in your post. Your initial post made no reference whatsoever to any studies/statistics/reports. It simply said that you lived in those countries and this is the conclusion you came to.  I have no intention of looking up the links you provided and trying to disprove your comments. As I've mentioned repeatedly I do not doubt that they are correct.

My sole intent in posting to this thread is to make sure the posts do not escalate in to biased, inflammatory comments. This was the path in which I saw the latest posts heading (both yours and Jeehad's). That is my job as moderator. So unless things heat up again, I do not intend to add anything further to the conversation.
Reality is what you perceive it to be.

Jeehad

lool and MustardSeed you still STILL fail to show me how Islam OR WHERE Islam promotes the killing of innocence. First of all, the actions of a group of people should never be portrayed or be attached as a stigma to the whole of the people. Hitler was not a muslim? Could I accuse that all Germans are Nazis? No, because that would be completely ignorant. The religion of Islam stems from the root word salam which means PEACE. ?The main principles of Islam is PEACE. You fail to realize this because this is in fact the CENTRAL basis of this religion. You Clearly have shown me your lack of understanding of your VERY OWN bible. Please Mustard get a copy of the Bible and read it over again and I'm sure your going to notice such brutality, then compare it with the verses of the Holy Quran.

Mustardseed

#43
Dear Novice

I am glad that you continue to post and do not get offended by my statements. I hope that this trend continues as we continue exchanging views. I would like to comment on your post if you do not mind as it is obvious that we do not see things eye to eye.

You said:

If you had read my posts, you will see the I repeatedly used words like "guess", "hypothesize", and phrases like "while I don't have the data". I am not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, and with all due respect to you and Jeehad, the topic does not interest me at all. As a result, I have caveatted everything I've said on the subject.

I realized quite early on that this was the case, (that you are no expert on the subject) and this is one point that I would like to draw your attention to. It is your job to moderate, and you are whether you like it or not somewhat of a authority figure. When you make baseless claims it is often accepted for more than opinion. Your "caveatting" (whatever that means) any such baseless claims and stating various hypotheses, is not moderating but rather entering the discussion, at which point you should leave your "moderators-stick" by the door. You should not make such statements as basis for your moderation. That is bias toward an unsubstantiated opinion. 

I previously posted this statement :

It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma

And you replied:

my point is still the same. The above issue you raise here can be said just as much about Christianity as it can about Islam.

If this is your point/claim, please substantiate it, otherwise I does not belong in the discussion, and is merely a quip of no consequence. I believe that you are very wrong indeed. The vast masses of Christians have very successfully marginalized the few Fundamentalists out there, and they are very marginal indeed. On a broad base I would say that only in the states have they succeeded in linking their Faith with politics. Millions of believing Christians have, through education and the very tenants of their belief, rejected aggression toward those who believe otherwise. Partly because the New Testament and the life of Jesus, encourages peace and nonviolence as opposed to The Koran and Muhammed, but also because Christianity has no Hadith, and is believed to be an "individually lived faith". The New Testament stands on its own, without a Hadith, and is opposed to having teachers who twist the scriptures. It certainly is all for leadership, but leadership mind you, on a personal level involving counseling prayer and so forth. As for instigating to religious fervor, there will always be the occasional nut who blows up a abortion clinic, (or invaded another country for that matter) but the vast masses of Christians are not swayed toward violence, nor do they see in their sacred scriptures anything that expects them to take up arms to make the world Christian.

This very issue is what makes the Koran and the Muslims different from the New Testament and Christians.  The Koran encourages an official merging of Religion and state, Sharia law. Under this law an mind-boggling array of human rights violations, are seen as "justifiable" through the tenants of the Koran. Under Sharia law and in a Moslem state, Fatwas and Jeehad are seen as the duty of every Muslim abiding there as well. I hope I do not have to explain what a Fatwa is. This is unthinkable in a Christian country. Please keep in mind that we are not talking here about being offended at various exhibitions, or trying to legislate against certain scientific viewpoints, but rather the slaughter and violence of awesome proportions. Incidentally your own statements supports my point. Christians may protest, try to sway others through politics, and influence through a public debate, but it is a known fact that in Muslim countries anyone seen as desecrating the tenants of the faith is persecuted in the most cruel way or simply executed. Christians are for the most part peaceful and patient seeking to change peoples views through secular means, in court and the public debate as opposed to the masses of Muslims who take to the streets burn down embassies and even blow up themselves and innocent bystanders, in an effort to please their God.

Then you said:


I use the term "broad generalization" exactly as I defined it above -- based on what was in your post. Your initial post made no reference whatsoever to any studies/statistics/reports. It simply said that you lived in those countries and this is the conclusion you came to.  I have no intention of looking up the links you provided and trying to disprove your comments. As I've mentioned repeatedly I do not doubt that they are correct.
My sole intent in posting to this thread is to make sure the posts do not escalate in to biased, inflammatory comments. This was the path in which I saw the latest posts heading (both yours and Jeehad's). That is my job as moderator. So unless things heat up again, I do not intend to add anything further to the conversation

My post did not need to be. This is the way a debate unfolds Novice. At first statements are made, then they are challenged, then they are either substantiated or not. You challenged my statement and I would suggest that you substantiate your claim. I have substantiated my statements very thoroughly, something I did not do because I thought you were well aware of this glaring fact. You were not. You however keep sticking to your unsubstantiated allegations and I ask you to please do so or be silent.

What I think is happening is that you entered the debate in order to calm the rhetoric, maybe unwittingly, promoting Political correctness. To be a "friend" to what appeared to you to be the attacked party you got involved in the actual debate, making claims, hypothesis etc. When I called you on this you denied it and tried to cover up by saying you were only trying to keep things respectful. You cannot make statements in favor of one opponent in a discussion, and then when you are challenged just say "Well I don't know anything about the subject but I was just trying to make you talk nice to each other" Do you follow my line of argument.

Besides that I do not think the debate was all that disrespectful, as Nay said we had a few shots at each other but are both trying to keep our tone reasonable and not too heated.

So choose Novice, stick to moderating or join the debate.

Regards Mustardseed

PS Jeehad...respond to this
KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

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KORAN promises of houris in heaven:

Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.

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Koran "sharia" punishments:

As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5:38









Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Jeehad

Dear MustardSeed, I will now begin explainin each verse for you Cheesy

"2.98":    Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

I do not see how this promotes hatred and anger? Surely God does not love those who are lead astray? Those who murder steal rape and promote hatred are enemies of God. God loves those who are just, those who are pious men in the eyes. This is also the central pricinipality of Christianity. Also, surat  al baqarah is also referring to the meccans as the un belivers. If you knew ANYTHING about Arab history, you will notice the brutality of the Meccans.


"2.161":    Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

Again the same as the first verse. An unbeliver is known as a kufr one who commites sins. The message of Islam tells you to love your brothers and sisters, do not incite hatred among people and once you break these moral codes you are surely on a destructive path. Christianity throws men in Heaven for eternity if you don't accept Jesus although in Islam you will be thrown in hell for a certain period of time depending on your sins. And Surely God in Christianity does not love those who turn away from him? SO giving me these 2 verses is accepting your hypocricy isnt it?


Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

looool... When the Meccans were coming to attack the Muslims who sought refuge in Medina the Angel Gabriel gave Muhammad a revelation to fight them back. I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest you read the entire chapter it will be MUCH more clear to you :P There are 3 differnt battles in which the Muslims had to take place in to fight against Meccans. Countless number of verses in the Quran commanded Muhammed to ONLY fight when being fought at. Therefore Fighting for your own defense is the principality of Islam. But God has certain guidelines of fighting which is outlined in many Hadiths.



"2.193":    And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


Dude... The verse you posted and this verse completely dont match also its the same explanation as above:P Notice there in the same chapter?


"2.216":    Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.


When the Meccans were coming to slaughter the Muslims, the Quranic verse stated that they must all fight to defend themselves. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with it... If a giant army of Mexicans come to invade America do they have the right to fight??? Quran never tells humanity to invade countries because they are disbelievers and as I mentioned in an earlier post about taking 1 verse and portraying it as the central message without reading the book as a whole was essential.


"3.140":    If a wound has afflicted you (at Ohud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you; and Allah does not love the unjust.

"3.141":    And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings.

"3.142":    Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
The battle of Ohud was a battle in which the meccans attacked a group of muslims. SO the Muslims had to fight back(this was known as Ohud). Remember, the Meccans were a powerful army at the time, they  hated Muhammds message because it spread VERY FAST. Powerful men of the society took a liking to it WHY? because it colved many social problems within that particular society. Arabia was enthrived with murder, rape, drunkness etc etc and Islam called upon man to unite as beings and to follow the path of righteousness. So the Meccans HATED it and tried to fight the muslims countless number of times. In fact when the Muslim people were a small number, living in Mecca they were persecuted... tortured and the message came for them to leave out of Mecca. Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise?  Your twisted view of a martyr is one who has BOMBS strapped to his body which is totally false. A martyr is one who dies for the cause of God.



"4.89":    They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

I get this verse ALOT from people and the explanation is rather simple. A muslim piller is to perform HAJJ(the pilgrimage to mecca) at least once in a lifetime. Note the K'aabah(the site of pilgramige) belonged to the Meccan arabs. So, as the Muslims entered Mecca to perform there piglramige God commanded them at first NOT to fight them leave them be, BUT THEN HE SAYS If they desist against you THEN fight them. I'm sure this is an acceptable sanction. Think about it, IF I entered a Church and ravaged out disrupting you from your worship and threatened to kill you all... I'd get shot!!! this is exactly what happened. And this entire chapter speaks about it in segments.


"5.54":    O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

WHERE DID YOU PULL THAT VERSE OUT OF... The above is the correct 1...


"8.36":    Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.

"8.37":    That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.

"8.38":    Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

"8.39":    And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.


These verses are explained.. When Muhammed and his peple fled Mecca, the Meccans found an oppurtunity to take there Goods and sell it in trade. The caravans were set out so the Muslims HAD THE RIGHT to return there goods, as they came upon the caravans to get them returend what happened next was the Meccan army was awaiting them for battle. his is known as the battle of Badr. A successfully moment in history for the Muslims, where they fought 10 thousand Meccans with only 400 soldiers with Gods grace and mercy.

"8.67":    It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

An important thing you must know. Held captive isn't always pleasing in the eyes of people. God is telling mankind NOT to take captives UNLESS it is nessesary. I assure you back then being held captive was regarded as a dishonor.


When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

loool, exactly as I was explaining earlier. In fact it is used as proof to back up wat I asid earlier:P During a month known as HARAM, one cannot even kill a fly. Muslims were required to restrain the opression the Meccans brought to them during there pilgramige THEN fight them back after the month was over. Again self defense nothing wrong with that.

"9.28":    O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

In the Islamci religion BEFORE one must enter a mosque, read the Quran or even do Prayer, you must reach a state of fitrah(purity). One must perform wuduh to cleanse his body or else he is not permitted such. This goes to Muslims AND non muslims.

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29

Thsi exact surah (the immunity) speaks about the pilgramige as I mentioned earlier which MUSLIMS HAVE EVERY RIGHT to fight back against ignorant people who fight them during there worship.If you read the Surah you are going to see my point ^.-/


When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine :P


"48.25":    It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge -- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

"48.29":    Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

WHERE THE HEC DID YOU GET THE TRANSLATION FROM.... Please stop forging the Quranic translations to fit your ignorance.




Let me give you an example of what you are doing :)

Jimmy when to school
Jimmy saw bob
Jimmy said hello
Bob slapped jimmy
bob laughed at Jimmy
Jimmy punched bob



OMG Jimmy punched bob Jimmy is a terrorist. He must be held captive him and his religion.. lool  as you can se you failed to read the previous parts of WHY Jimmy did so? The Quran tells man never to fight unless the conditions are nessesary. meaning if someone is attacking you, you have the right to attack back as SELF DEFENSE with certain laws. You can only fight THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING YOU nothing else. Meaning, even innocent lives of the enemy CANNOT BE TAKEN. EVEN A TREE has been forsaken to be hurt during such times. The Noble prophet Muhammed(pbuh) spoke right in front of those WHO KILLED HIS VERY OWN FAMILY. Imagine... He sat there making peace agreements as allah commanded to make peace first! They refused to do so and commanded him to stop preaching this religion. So the Meccans took hostility against him and his followers, tried to assassinate him many times but they failed through Gods grace and mercy.

Salam ou alakoum and I truly hope this post has inspired you to read the Holy Quran and find out that my words are true.

Peace!

Jeehad

Let us analyze the science in the bible shall we?

a. Creation of the Universe in Six Days

As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter On e, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur'an mentions that the universe was created in six 'Ayyaams', 'Ayyaam' is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Qur'an mentions that the universe was created in six 'Ayyaams', it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.

b. Sun Created After the Day

The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur'an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.

c. Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon

According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.

d. Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day

According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?

If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur'an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur'an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.

e. The Sun and the Moon both Emit light

According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night".

Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur'anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur'an is to think of something impossible.

f. Adam the First man on Earth, lived 5,800 years ago

As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham (pbuh) to the first man on earth i.e. Adam (pbuh), Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:
i) 1948 years between Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh)
ii) Approximately 1800 years between Abraham (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh)
iii) 2000 years from Jesus (pbuh) till today

These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.

There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.

The Qur'an too speaks about Adam (pbuh) as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible - what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.

g. Noah and the Flood

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur'anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur'an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur'an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur'an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur'an.

h. Moses and Pharaoh of the Exodus

The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur'an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur'an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92: "This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" [Al-Qur'an 10:92]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II's son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur'anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs' body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

This verse of the Qur'an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur'an. He later wrote a book 'The Bible, the Qur'an and Science', and confessed that the author of the Qur'an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.

i. Qur'an is a book of Allah

These evidences are sufficient to conclude that the Qur'an was not copied from the Bible, but that the Qur'an is the Furqaan - 'the Criteria' to judge right from wrong and it should be used to decipher which portion of the Bible may be considered as the Word of God.

The Qur'an itself testifies in Surah Sajda chapter 32 verse 1 to 3 Alif Laam Meem. (This is) the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt – from the Lord of the Worlds.Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance." [Al-Qur'an 32:1-3]

Goober

Quote from: Mustardseed on February 12, 2007, 10:25:07
As for being ignorant this is what the dictionary states is the meaning of the word

Without education or knowledge:
illiterate, , uneducated, uninstructed, unlearned, unschooled, untaught.
See knowledge.

Exhibiting lack of education or knowledge:
backward, benighted, primitive, unenlightened.

Let me assure you that I am not ignorant I might be stupid, in your opinion, I might be aggressive, irritating or arrogant, but I am not ignorant.

  About your own religion; yes, it seems you are. I do not believe you have the right to stereotype Muslims, thinking you know a lot about them, when you yourself know nothing of your own beliefs. You claim to be a Christian, yes?

  So far from this argument; you present a point, Jeehad retaliates, and you don't bring it up again. This could be fine in a normal debate; it would be understood that you would have taken in his point, and realized you were wrong. But no, in this one you seem to keep your beliefs even though he has presented valid arguments against them. Please, if you consider yourself a true Christian..

"Give an answer to everyone who asks you, to give the reason for the hope that you have." 1 Peter 3:15


  And the Muslim stereotyping.. what was the point?! I don't believe most Muslims are idiots, but even if I did that would have nothing to do with what I believed about Jeehad! He's proven to be knowledgeable in his field. Follow your rules, stop trying to bend them.

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13


As I've just shown, it seems you have already sinned twice in this argument. You read this message with your eyes, you typed your messages with your hands. You are in for it big time, it seems.


"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:29


How are you even seeing the screen? In your beliefs we all sin; that includes you. You seem to be ignoring what your "God" blatantly said to you. Now for the other..


"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." Matthew 5:30


  Are you typing with your knees or something? It is so clear what is being said here, and yet no Christian would ever bring this verse into his or her testimony. Do you take this as a metaphor or something? If you do, why? Every verse around those two are taken as literal and yet you would never take these two as such. So please..

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."John 14:15









Mustardseed

#48
Dear All
Lol  :-D I guess I just cant win. I will be satisfied to leave you all to continue the debate. This is all going way over my head so maybe you are right boys maybe I am ignorant. Maybe Muslims are a peaceloving fun bunch of guys, maybe Islam is a great peaceful movement of wellwishers and kind human beings. Maybe the world is a real fun place and the mid east a wonderworld like Disneyland where dreams come to pass. Muslim women have equality, terrorists were really not trying to hurt anyone but only made a wrong turn on the way to the stone quarry, oops and Osama Bin Laden and his associates are really kinda like Robin Hood and his merry men in disguise. He really wouldn't hurt a fly nooooo....only poke them to make them say sorry sir and besides his sword isn't a real sword but made of aluminum foil. Maybe we should all convert and become Muslims, instate Sharia and see what happens. ..........Hey there is an idea, then we will finally be in Heaven where righteousness rules and we can all live like they do in the mideast , enjoy our figs from our own garden and all have a great ol' time every Friday when the executioner comes to town. Cutting off heads and hands is so much easier than spending all that ungodly energy on re-socializing. We should all adhere to Islam and shun free speech, get some good old fashioned tyrants in place who can get our mind off all our trouble with some major food shortages or a saturday night embassy burning session, and if any of those nasty folks of other religions wont play.......then we all march to the beach together and fill our pockets with stones, and if anyone dares to poke fun of us either through caricatures or sarcasm irony or such we will bring them to justice...........off with their heads too. cause we don't want those troublesome guys around, noo...not being the peaceful loving bunch of guys we are.

I will leave you with one thought. This small part stood out to me in the much writing that has transpired

I have argued (among other things) with Jeehad that Islam is a Violent religion.......he denies this. I quoted a part of the Koran that pertains to unbelievers Sura 47:4 which states

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

His reply was the following very complicated, yet rather enlightening statement:

(Jeehad) Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine 
Well thanks Jeehad for the very emphatic comment on the lack of Morphine in the 1400's, I see clearly how much you care :-D

HELLO PEOPLE anyone home here. I guess it is only me that see anything wrong with this picture but being given the choice of execution method is not what I thought you were talking about when you called yourself Peaceful.

Allright kids I lay it down, and let you all have the field. Good luck with your conversion tour Jeehad.

Regards Mustardseed

I will leave the discussion with just one small ps

PS

What is a presupposition? A presupposition is an assumption you make prior to looking at the evidence. Presuppositions are crucial because they determine how you interpret the evidence. Let me give you an example. Did you hear about the man who thought he was dead? This guy firmly believed he was dead, even though he was a living, normally–functioning human being. Well, his wife persuaded him to visit a psychiatrist, who tried in vain to convince him that he was in fact alive. Finally, the psychiatrist hit upon a plan. He showed the man medical reports and scientific evidence that dead men do not bleed. After thoroughly convincing the man that dead men do not bleed, the psychiatrist took out a pin and pricked the man's finger. When the man saw the drop of blood trickle down his finger, his eyes bugged out. "Ha!" he cried, "Dead men do bleed after all!"

The man's belief that he was dead was a presupposition that determined how he interpreted the evidence. He held so strongly to that presupposition that it skewed how he looked at the facts.

Peace Jeehad you peaceperson you and all the merry men as well. Tell when you are coming to America and I will keep the tea hot

Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Jeehad

lol... I never EVER in my right mind claimed that the terrorists as you may call them are doing good. IF you want a political debate I'm more then happy to do so. MY opinion is that the biggest terrorist in this equation is the US government. Decades of murder against the Muslims people, theft of oil, billion dollar donations to a stolen state(israel) to further force illegal occupation on muslim grounds and you seriously do not expect resistance? For years people already knew something BAD was heading towards the US and I am sure that the governments knew that. And they further wanted it to occur in order to force there opinions down our lands to further occupy the region. This isn't a war against terror but rather a war against the poor, a war against peace. You fail to realize that I completely do NOT agree with Osama bin laden, nor do I agree with the talibans regimes against women. and as you can see by your wording you have claimed to show your utter ignorance.  I announced my religion to being Islam and denying your claims(which you inevitably cannot refute) you view me as a supporter of such madness. I am a supporter of peace, I condemn any violence whether it be from a Muslim OR a Christian or a Jew. whether your black blue or white there is no reason for violence. Do you want to know why terrorist sare formed? Why there are such things as radicals and suicide bombers? The answer is simple! When you bomb a  building you have CIVILIANS living in those buildings. Imagine if you kill a mother father son daughter? How will the relatives react? I'm sure if I killed both your parents you'd sure as hell murder me. Statistics show that the majority of terrorists come out of oppressed regions. You also need to understand one IMPORTANT FACT.Most of our governments were formed after the fall of the soviets. The US placed puppet governments which the vast majority of them were dictators and brutal rulers to further place pressure on the soviets during the cold war. These governments still remain today and receive there orders through the Us branch. You can DENY THIS CLAIM but I assure you any politican will agree with my statements. How do you not expect resistance to form, when your own government supplied the hatred on the people? How do you not expect terrorist to form when your own government supplied these terrorist themselves? Ever heard of the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan lead by the Russians? who do you think supplied 1.5 billion dollars to an organization which took pledge to eliminating them? THE US do you wanna know whom those organizations were? the Taliban AND Al-Qaeda.....

  I come here explaining each verse and you claim that I am still in denial? Please MustardSeed am I wrong because you say so? You fail to realize every single verse was either your own twisting of words(and im being serious the words were actually changed...) OR even just taking one idea and portraying it as the central principality. How do you expect to get the full story when you've read a sentence of it? My only advice to you is to PLEASE read the Quran and if possible also Read your own bible and inshallah you will realize truth.

Ps. Upon the matter of the "head cutting," during wars the decapitation of ones head was an honorable way of death. this was actually a tradition which originated from the Japanese, it does seem gruesome but any person with knowledge of the human anatomy will know that your base nerves lie within that area. Just a millimeter of punctured skin will result in the collapse of feeling thus making the death painful. I don't see how that is wrong...