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Author Topic: Universism  (Read 4941 times)
no_leaf_clover
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« on: January 20, 2005, 03:12:30 »

Came across this link and found it be the closest religion to how I feel. Dead-on for most things.. except I don't like religion in general for limiting people to things other people think up for them. Still interesting, I think, and thought I'd share.

http://www.universist.org/
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Tyciol
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 04:27:06 »

Neat, lemme read that sometime.

I like Universes.
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 04:27:06 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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fuji257
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 03:08:31 »

This is nothing more than Buddhism, without Buddha or a disciplined meditation technique.  The funny part (not ha ha funny) is these folks don't even realize it.

From the FAQ:
"What do Universists think about followers of faith-based religions, such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and others?"

That is priceless.  Buddhism is NOT a faith based religion any more than Universism is!  Duh!  This really makes these people look like screwballs.

Almost everything they expound on their site was taught ~5000 years ago by Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha).  Some things are worded a little different, and emphasis on this over that - but its all the same.

They question everything (which is good) and use personal experience and reason (logic) above all ("be a light unto yourselves", Buddha) and thats good too.

Heres where the big difference is from the FAQ again:

"Universism states that there is no "absolute Truth" that applies to everyone, what is meant by "absolute Truth."

Universism is addressing religious truth, not scientific truth. A capital T in Truth is commonly understood to refer to the Ultimate Nature of Existence, the meaning of life, and the nature of the metaphysical. There is an objective reality and science is the tool to decipher it. That reality does apply to the nature of the human animal. As Edward O. Wilson wrote in Consilience, "The human condition is the most important frontier of the natural sciences.""


OF COURSE they don't "believe" in an Absolute Truth, since they don't use any time tested/proven (for millennia)  meditation techniques they will never witness said Truth.  Duh! Again.

Buddhism minus discipline.  What's the point?  I guess all the wanna be Buddhists that like to philosophize everything to death but refuse to practice and still call themselves Buddhist will have somewhere to go now.  Maybe they could still achieve Satori or at least a lot of Kensho if they seriously question everything hard/long enough.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2005, 00:28:56 »

Quote
OF COURSE they don't "believe" in an Absolute Truth, since they don't use any time tested/proven (for millennia) meditation techniques they will never witness said Truth. Duh! Again.

Buddhism minus discipline. What's the point?


I take it you must be Buddhist? And maybe slightly aggressive towards these guys wink

Maybe regular meditation to find an 'absolute truth' isn't what most people need. Life could be a whole lot less complicated if meditation was the end-all solution to advancement in this world. There's a lot here to experience. Hell, whatever 'absolute truth' is may not even be that important at this point in humanity's development. To love unconditionally seems to work well enough, if we could only work on getting that across to everybody by simply living by that as best human nature allows us individually.

I think what the guys were going for with Universism was to get people to ditch religions and religious dogma completely, which is what I liked. Seems like they did get religions and belief systems a little confused though.
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fuji257
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2005, 01:51:56 »

>>I take it you must be Buddhist? And maybe slightly aggressive towards these guys<<

I try to be.  I may seem aggressive, but I was just stating my opinion on Universism, that is what you aked people to do?   "Right Speech" is my Big-Zen-Devils Advocate-Stick. wink

>>Maybe regular meditation to find an 'absolute truth' isn't what most people need. Life could be a whole lot less complicated if meditation was the end-all solution to advancement in this world.<<

Never said anyone needed anything.  I am just contrasting their stated beliefs on their website with that of Buddhism.  They are VERY similar, but with an important aspect missing - and somehow they carry on about how original they are.  I never stated that meditation was the end-all solution to advancement.  Your putting words in my mouth.  I was emphasizing it strongly because it is a time tested method to discovering "truth" (for many, not everyone), which they lack any methods but otherwise have a pretty exact Buddhist philosophy and do not acknowlege it.  You asked people to tell you what they think - well thats what I think.  If you only wanted an agnostic perspective (?) you should have said so. Cheesy

>>There's a lot here to experience. Hell, whatever 'absolute truth' is may not even be that important at this point in humanity's development. To love unconditionally seems to work well enough, if we could only work on getting that across to everybody by simply living by that as best human nature allows us individually.<<

I cannot disagree.

>>I think what the guys were going for with Universism was to get people to ditch religions and religious dogma completely, which is what I liked. <<

Yeah, again - thats what the Buddha did ~5000 years earlier.

>>Seems like they did get religions and belief systems a little confused though.<<

I think most web pages that promote a religion, tend to contrast themselves with other religions that they know little about.  This Universism is no more guilty than countless other pages doing the same thing.  My intent was not to say "Universism is gargabe" or anything.  My intent was just to illustrate that it is unoriginal despite their claims to the contrary.  While I stated it just tinge on the sarcastic side  evil  I honestly believe it has its place; their are TONS of people who buy into Buddhist-like philosophies but do not wish to learn meditation.
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2005, 01:51:56 »



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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2005, 02:45:03 »

Yeah, I guess I can't complain Cheesy And just for the record I think Buddha was a great guy.  Cool

For me though the problem with it was that they present Universism as a religion rather than just saying 'drop your dogmas', which might've been less hypocritical but also probably less catchy. :/
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2005, 15:01:30 »

Quote from: fuji257
Almost everything they expound on their site was taught ~5000 years ago by Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha).

 
Why 5000 years? Wasn't Siddharta born ~560 BC?
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fuji257
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2005, 01:24:24 »

>>Why 5000 years? Wasn't Siddharta born ~560 BC?<<

Oh, shoot.  How embarassing . . .

You are correct.  Just a minor brain fart here.  Nothing to see . . . move along . . .
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beavis
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2005, 05:57:17 »

They claim the following is absolutely true for all people...
Quote
II. There is no absolute Truth that applies to all people; ultimate knowledge of the nature of existence cannot be communicated, it can only be reasoned or experienced personally.


Anything can be communicated if the people (or smarter species) communicating are smart enough.
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fuji257
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2005, 15:35:47 »

I don't think "smart" has anything to do with it.

Any species can only communicate with the natural abilities they are genetically capable of.

We only have five senses (arguably more by some).  I can only communicate a personal experience to another based on our shared experience of these senses.

Try to describe what the sense of "smell" to somebody who was born without taste or smell.  No matter how smart you or they are - it cannot be done.  After endless hours of communication back and forth the best you could hope, is that they have a VERY VAGUE intellectual understanding.  But they still would truly have no clue.  Not really.

Lets say to experience the Absolute Truth required a Sixth or even Seventh sense outside of the five you are familiar with.  (For arguments sake) All people could develop these extra senses, but YOU have not and I have.  Now if I write long boring books on the Absolute Truth for you to read, you would only be able to comprehend descriptions relating to the five you are familiar with.

Sight, Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing and lets call the Sixth sense Pooking and the Seventh sense Futtah.   If someone else could "Pook" etc., I could EASILY explain the absolute truth to them just by saying "It Pooked like such and such, but it Futtahed like so . . ." and then they would instantly understand.  Just like if I say I saw a red car, since you share sight experience with me nothing more would need to be said.

Now lets say both you and I experienced the same Absolute Truth.  We may choose different words (labels) to describe the same experience to another.  We would both be struggling to explain the same thing, by limiting the Truth in words and labels the listener can relate to.  We would not bother to explain "Pook" or "Futtah" because we would know the listener could not possibly "get it".  This is why "it can only be experienced personally".  That is a common Buddhist thought, though I have never heard it said it could be "reasoned" like the quote you refered to (and would have to disagree that it could be simply reasoned).
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beavis
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2005, 19:44:31 »

Quote
I don't think "smart" has anything to do with it.

Any species can only communicate with the natural abilities they are genetically capable of.


Then your genes, which only contain about 1 CD (700 megabytes) full of data, must include the words communicate, based, these, of, and the ability to type on a keyboard, because if its not natural, you cant use it to communicate. Also we can never talk about quantum wave functions, parallel universes, or anything else not intuitive to one who has only been exposed to natural things.

Quote
We only have five senses (arguably more by some). I can only communicate a personal experience to another based on our shared experience of these senses.


Are you calling all my posts about telekinesis useless, since it uses an extra sense (and other things)?

Quote
Try to describe what the sense of "smell" to somebody who was born without taste or smell. No matter how smart you or they are - it cannot be done. After endless hours of communication back and forth the best you could hope, is that they have a VERY VAGUE intellectual understanding. But they still would truly have no clue. Not really.


Intuitive understanding is relevant only to the specific thing experiencing it. Like the calibration of a joystick is only relevant to that specific joystick. There is no useful information in it relevant to anything else, except that which can be communicated intellectually.

Quote
Lets say to experience the Absolute Truth required a Sixth or even Seventh sense outside of the five you are familiar with. (For arguments sake) All people could develop these extra senses, but YOU have not and I have. Now if I write long boring books on the Absolute Truth for you to read, you would only be able to comprehend descriptions relating to the five you are familiar with.


You talk about absolute truth in a much too religious way. Something is absolutely true simply by not being any false. Anything that exists can affect anything else that exists, therefore any sense will be affected by absolute truth. There is always a common ground to start from.

Quote
Sight, Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing and lets call the Sixth sense Pooking and the Seventh sense Futtah. If someone else could "Pook" etc., I could EASILY explain the absolute truth to them just by saying "It Pooked like such and such, but it Futtahed like so . . ." and then they would instantly understand. Just like if I say I saw a red car, since you share sight experience with me nothing more would need to be said.


Your complaints about the speed of communication dont mean it cant be communicated. You only tried one sentence.
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fuji257
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2005, 20:16:00 »

Then your genes, which only contain about 1 CD (700 megabytes) full of data, must include the words communicate, based, these, of, and the ability to type on a keyboard, because if its not natural, you cant use it to communicate. Also we can never talk about quantum wave functions, parallel universes, or anything else not intuitive to one who has only been exposed to natural things.

Yes we are scientifically capable of typing.  Maybe "genetically" was the wrong word to use.  We have natural abilities (the five senses, more for some) and learned abilities (other senses, for example but not explicitly only).  Learned abilities are "natural" per say, I was just trying to keep things simple.

Are you calling all my posts about telekinesis useless, since it uses an extra sense (and other things)?

Oh by no means!  I believe telekinesis is possible (though, I have no first hand experience).  It is "just another sense" past the spectrum of the five most people utilize (IMO).

Intuitive understanding is relevant only to the specific thing experiencing it. Like the calibration of a joystick is only relevant to that specific joystick. There is no useful information in it relevant to anything else, except that which can be communicated intellectually.

I'm not sure of your point?  I don't if you got mine either?  Try to describe to me what (just for example) a rose smells like, without using the word "smell" or "taste".  You see, you are now handicapped.  Not only do have to described the odor, but you have to describe the "smelling" sensation altogether.  My point is with no common ground/shared experience it is useless through traditional means of communication.  Thats all.

You talk about absolute truth in a much too religious way. Something is absolutely true simply by not being any false.  

For me it is "religious".  And there is a HUGE difference between "not being false" and The Absolute Truth (not an absolute truth).

Anything that exists can affect anything else that exists, therefore any sense will be affected by absolute truth. There is always a common ground to start from.

According that logic, I could describe how a color tasted, sounded, smelled and felt - - - and then you could tell me what color?  Thats not logical.  It is absolutely true that something is red, but it only affects sight (at least for the point of any meaningful communication). Any sense is not always affected.  If The Absolute Truth (not an absolute truth) affects 10 senses but you have six, then you have not experienced it absolutely.  Thats all I'm trying to get across.

Your complaints about the speed of communication dont mean it cant be communicated. You only tried one sentence.

I only tried in one sentence because I would be so bold as to even attempt to explain The Absolute Truth on a web board!  Many notable enlightened scholars, sages and priests etc. have tried for thousands of years to explain in very lengthy books and nobody ever 100% "gets it" until they experience it for themselves (see your original quote).  I was merely attempting to explain why that is (from my own opinion).
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Potential
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2005, 19:50:29 »

How about Autotheism? Like Buddhist Tantra, the realization of the Buddha within yourself, and the methods available for the attainment of it.
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Nostic
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2005, 20:14:06 »

Quote from: fuji257
I don't think "smart" has anything to do with it.

Any species can only communicate with the natural abilities they are genetically capable of.

We only have five senses (arguably more by some).  I can only communicate a personal experience to another based on our shared experience of these senses.

Try to describe what the sense of "smell" to somebody who was born without taste or smell.  No matter how smart you or they are - it cannot be done.  After endless hours of communication back and forth the best you could hope, is that they have a VERY VAGUE intellectual understanding.  But they still would truly have no clue.  Not really.

Lets say to experience the Absolute Truth required a Sixth or even Seventh sense outside of the five you are familiar with.  (For arguments sake) All people could develop these extra senses, but YOU have not and I have.  Now if I write long boring books on the Absolute Truth for you to read, you would only be able to comprehend descriptions relating to the five you are familiar with.

Sight, Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing and lets call the Sixth sense Pooking and the Seventh sense Futtah.   If someone else could "Pook" etc., I could EASILY explain the absolute truth to them just by saying "It Pooked like such and such, but it Futtahed like so . . ." and then they would instantly understand.  Just like if I say I saw a red car, since you share sight experience with me nothing more would need to be said.

Now lets say both you and I experienced the same Absolute Truth.  We may choose different words (labels) to describe the same experience to another.  We would both be struggling to explain the same thing, by limiting the Truth in words and labels the listener can relate to.  We would not bother to explain "Pook" or "Futtah" because we would know the listener could not possibly "get it".  This is why "it can only be experienced personally".  That is a common Buddhist thought, though I have never heard it said it could be "reasoned" like the quote you refered to (and would have to disagree that it could be simply reasoned).


That was good; very well thought-out.
Couldn't you have used a cooler word than "pooked" though?  Smiley
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fuji257
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2005, 23:45:23 »

Potential,

I just don't know about Tantra.  I think I have too many archtypes floating around in my subconcious for sadhanna wink  . . .  maybe sometime after I feel I've master my current meditation techniques I'll delve into that area.

Nostic,

Thanks.  But what could be cooler that "Pooking"? Cheesy
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Frank
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2005, 00:06:06 »

Hello:

For the record there are no absolutes full stop, Truths or otherwise. You don't need to subscribe to an "ism" to know that. All anyone need do is look within themselves, quietly, and they can find out for themselves without all the usual fanfare. But I suppose as most people appear locked in the old leader/follower constructs that's going to be a tad difficult for a while. But they'll drop off eventually, as people enter into more post-conventional constructs.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2005, 09:35:15 »

Yes, Frank, I am delving into a self-construct right now. It seems to transcend most every religion, faith, and mental construct designed around those principals. However I feel saddened that there is no organized structure when dealing with new religions such as this.

As for how I feel about this specific faith, without looking at the site, I feel someone subconsciously saw a need for linking thinking 'book thumpers' into higher direct aspects of faith as seen in Bhuddism and Taoism. Essentially I got a good vibe despite my taking it in with a grain of salt (blindly).

After reading over the intro on the site, and being put off by the 'gee whiz cool' spinning flash galaxy thingy, I sense a mild conspiracy (ulterior motives, but based on serving rather than self) for the taking, and I sense overall good intentions.

I essentially feel like the person behind this got a strong dose of the Borg from Star Trek, got a little overexcited by that idea, and tried very hard to turn it into something valid, and good. What I see here is a faith commune, designed to promote it's five principles (which any psychologist knows, most people notice and remember the last billboard that gets their attention more than anything).

In conclusion, I wish to do more research over time on this subject of Universism, and see how much of it's words float.
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beavis
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2005, 06:07:57 »

Quote
I'm not sure of your point? I don't if you got mine either? Try to describe to me what (just for example) a rose smells like, without using the word "smell" or "taste". You see, you are now handicapped. Not only do have to described the odor, but you have to describe the "smelling" sensation altogether. My point is with no common ground/shared experience it is useless through traditional means of communication. Thats all.


Its harder to describe, but I could do it. Smell is knowledge about certain properties of molecules. A chemist could probably use only math to define the smell of a rose.

Quote
there is a HUGE difference between "not being false" and The Absolute Truth (not an absolute truth).


Then tell me 2 things that are absolutely true but not Absolutely True, and 2 things that are Absolutely True but not absolutely true.

Quote
According that logic, I could describe how a color tasted, sounded, smelled and felt - - - and then you could tell me what color? Thats not logical.


Color 1: spicy, sound has a lot of spikes and static, smells burned, feels rough and jagged.
Color 2: tastes like a liquid, sound has smooth echos, feels like it has less weight than it really does.

Everybody, what do you think those 2 colors are?

Quote
If The Absolute Truth (not an absolute truth) affects 10 senses but you have six, then you have not experienced it absolutely. Thats all I'm trying to get across.


The Uncertainty Principle says you cant experience anything absolutely. Any sensing, physical or nonphysical, must be done by changing something.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2005, 07:04:33 »

Quote
Its harder to describe, but I could do it. Smell is knowledge about certain properties of molecules. A chemist could probably use only math to define the smell of a rose.


I can't smell all that well and though I know what smell is and can sense it, that doesn't really seem like it would help me all that much if I never had.  huh

Quote
Color 1: spicy, sound has a lot of spikes and static, smells burned, feels rough and jagged.
Color 2: tastes like a liquid, sound has smooth echos, feels like it has less weight than it really does.

Everybody, what do you think those 2 colors are?


Ohh!!

hmm..

Color 1:  Is this a darker shade of red maybe? Or a brownish?
 
Color 2: This one seems a little easier.. Either white or blue, right?

Kind of hard to guess based off only what you provided. And this is all involving senses I've been familiar with my whole life.

Quote
The Uncertainty Principle says you cant experience anything absolutely.


I think you might be talking about a different kind of 'absolute' than Fuji here. And in your case I can absolutely feel my leg going to sleep right now as I've been sitting on it for a long time. But in his case, I don't know what I'm not sensing that's going on down there, or maybe up here, as atrocious as that reads.  shocked

Quote
Any sensing, physical or nonphysical, must be done by changing something.


I don't understand how this relates exactly but then again I don't know the Uncertainty Principle that well. Can you elaborate?
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fuji257
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2005, 21:49:28 »

Beavis,

We obviously share different opinions.  Nothing you have stated has changed mine - though it does help me question mine which is always good to question your opinions.  I hope I've helped you question yours as well.

I feel I've explained my opinions to the best of my ability and cannot make them any more clear.  And you have explained yours well, also.

Thank you for the interesting disscussion, but I feel I have nothing further to add.  

I mean we could go on like this forever Cheesy  But where would that get us?  

Peace.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2005, 13:47:17 »

Quote from: beavis
They claim the following is absolutely true for all people...
Quote
II. There is no absolute Truth that applies to all people; ultimate knowledge of the nature of existence cannot be communicated, it can only be reasoned or experienced personally.


Anything can be communicated if the people (or smarter species) communicating are smart enough.


 Can experiences themselves be communicated in your opinion?

 To quote Huxley:

"    We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies—all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes. "

Regarding experience. We filter everything we perceive through our current life experience to date. We do not see the experience, we see our interpretation of it. When we communicate it using symbols (words) it passes through our belief systems (ego, perception, prejudices, desires etc) and through the lips. The receiver then filters it through his/her own belief system and stored it based on their life knowledge to date (which might or might not contain first hand experience of the event being passed.) Even language itself is not an absolute, it has a common enough core to be useful in general. But each of us attribute different feelings, experiences to words. So it is not a complete form of communication. Disregarding the language aspect. How can an experience itself be communicated when it cannot truely be communicated even with words?

 I have to say i'm with Frank on this one. There are no absolutes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2005, 16:13:48 »

You know what? The more I think about it, the more it seems like universism came from Babylon 5.
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