Losing my Religion...

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

magicmac2000

Fellows:
           Hi there :) I've been reading a lot of material trying to find "proof" about my religion (Christian). Proof of Jesus existence, proof of God, proof of something. A signal  :roll:
To be honest, during my journey I read a lot about Evolution, origins of life, etc... and I found proof there. Proof that comes from the Science. Too bad for my faith, so I started to search books against Evolution, and to be honest, they couldn't convince me at all. "The Case for God", "Darwins Black Box", "The Case for Christ", etc... At the end, I found myself lost, or "more lost" than at the beginning...
Now, can anyone without quoting the bible tell me something logical/rational to believe in God again ? I can't find a way to believe in Evolution and God at the same time. Don't know why :(

Thanks a lot in advance,
Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

moogle_assassin

Religion is about faith, plain and simple.

I have a theory, it is kinda weird but it may help.

God created the earth like it says in the bible. He put all the signs of evolution there to test the faith of his followers. By  keeping faith to the end you prove yourself truly worthy of heaven.

I should note, that this is just a theory. I have many diffrent ones and I hardy beleive in any of them. I am not a "christian" my self. But I thought that you might like my threory.
"They've been throwing rocks at Alito all week long, and those rocks have just been bouncing off that obelisk, boomeranging and smacking at Democrats upside the head."

"Club Gitmo- your tropical escape from the stresses of gihad

magicmac2000

Thanks Moogle :) It's a cool theory. Now, how/why should he ask for faith ? Hey, if Jesus existed, then people who were close to him had a clear advantage over me, who have to read things that were written/censured/translated/rewritten by humans :) I mean, isn't easier to believe if you see a real prophet "LIVE" ?
That's the point: God is asking me to have faith on what the scriptures say, that means: on men. What does he want ? A "good boy" ? Nothing will change if he show me "the rules" of this game. It's not easy to be better and better every day, no matter if God exists or not. So if he can just "send a signal"  :shock: it will be easier for me  :lol:
Anyway, thanks for you reply Moogle. It's a very nice theory :)

Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

Beth

Dear Magic,

I hope you do not feel alone in your present state of mind; there are many people at various stages of the same quandry.  

Since perspective can be everything sometimes, the first thing that I would like for you to consider is this:

GOD does not= Bible

Bible=Judaism, Christianity, Islam
[Judaism (OT/HB,) Christianity (OT and NT),  and Islam (OT, NT with the addition of the Koran.)]

These three religions only represent the past two-thousand years of the history of religion in the West...and then the more popular religions at that!

This planet is a pretty big place with a lot of religions and a lot of philosophies.  But relatively speaking, The Universe is so vast we cannot even conceive of its totality in our little pea-brains.   As important as we think we are, we are not even a discernable speck in the bigger scheme of things-----most especially in knowing the creation of a universe that we cannot even totally apprehend!!  

So, if there is a God of the Universe, we cannot possibly know that god in any real way...we may be good...very good at times...but not that good!!  And actually, now that I just typed that sentence, I am giving humanity a lot of credit it may not deserve!  So better put, perhaps:

We can't even figure out what is going on in our families, our own cities/states/countries, so what makes us think that we can know God?  

Humans are a pretty arrogant species, and thinking that we can know the motivations or the mind of God is perhaps the biggest proof of that arrogance.  

If you have a sense that there is a God, then I suggest you stay with that as long as it works for you.  Just remember...God does not= Bible. God is much too vast to be constrained into just one book.  The Bible is a collection of ancient stories about the relationship between a supposed God and ancient humanity. The bible is not Knowledge of God.

If evolution is the best scientific theory that we have that explains the origin of our species, then I suggest you go with that...if having an opinion on such a thing is that important to you.  

I say this because arguments about creationism versus evolution are not about the origin of the species Magic, they are about religion versus science.  About the bible versus scientific method.  


If this helps you gain a little perspective, then that is great.  If it only confuses you more, then that is not necessarily bad, as long as you keep searching for your answers.  That is the biggest problem that I see with all of this...these religions and their scriptures have made it all 'too easy' in the past for people to become complacent and never seek past what is handed to them.  

The world is definately changing however, for people are not as willing to accept supposed 'knowlege' on blind faith primarily because we are all so much more educated today than ever before.  We are in the process of becoming too intelligent for blind faith and as a result, we are outgrowing the biblical stories.  

This fact can also be worked into a theory of Evolution as well...the evolution of the Human Mind!  This 'evolution of the mind' is also what is being debated in this argument: evolution of the mind versus blind faith.  Here too... the end result may well be the 'survival of the fittest'.

Let us know if there is anything else we can help you with.  This is a good forum with a lot of good and very intelligent people and moderators. :wink:

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

MindFreak

Religion is completely useless if its not practical. It has to be connected to your everyday experience or else whats the point? Any religion that is based only upon faith is ridiculous. Which is why I personally chose Buddhism. Its all stuff you can corroborate with your own experience.

magicmac2000

Thanks Beth for taking the time to make such clear/long post !! :) The same for you, MindFreak, but only clear, not long :)
Beth, to be honest: Yes, I feel alone with this. Why ? Because I'm the only one (in my family/friends circle) that has these kinda' feeling/questions. I have no one to talk about this. Yeah, I speak with my wife, friends sometimes, but they believe in God and that's it. No questions :) I was that way just two months ago. Bah, I've been searching for answers for a long time, but never thought that maybe there's no God at all. For me, it was a fact. And now it's not anymore. I still have a "feeling/internal sense" that there's a God. But you know, that feeling is what scientist call the "Experience".

I mean, when you speak with a scientist or an atheist and he/she asks you, "How do you know there's a God ?" ... I used to reply: "I can feel... that's it :)" ... now, I can still feel it, but I'm asking to myself: "Isn't that just a delusion ?" ...

Puufff... Maybe this is part of the way... Maybe I should turn myself an atheist for a while, and see how do I feel living like that. Maybe there's a God and maybe it's just my desire... maybe it's harder to live like an atheist because there's no "Kingdom of Heaven" ... so why bothering yourself ?
I remember my old debates with Atheists :) They trying to convince me to be an Atheist and me, trying to convince them to believe in God. Now I have both roles for myself :)

Anyway, yesterday I had a dream (not LD or AP, just a regular dream) where a Magician (yes, I like Magic) called me and showed me a paper. The had these written words: "To meet the third person (El / He), you should first know the second one (Tu / You)" ... The meaning (I remember interpreting that on the dream itself) was: In order to meet him (God), you should first meet (?).... I don't understand what I thought in the dream, but it was a feeling like: In order to meet God, you should first meet somebody else.

Again guys, thanks a lot. Now I don't feel alone anymore  :lol:


Magic  :question:
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

Beth

Quote from: magicmac2000...The had these written words: "To meet the third person (El / He), you should first know the second one (Tu / You)" ... I don't understand what I thought in the dream, but it was a feeling like: In order to meet God, you should first meet somebody else.
Well, since -- grammatically speaking -- the 'third person' is he/she/it and the 'second person' is 'you' and the first person is 'I'...then I think your dream is actually pretty clear....

The other person that you think you have to meet is......YOU.!!!!!

On the entrance to the Temple at Delphi in ancient Greece there was an engraving that has become a very important maxim:  KNOW THYSELF.  

Think on that one for a while!!! :wink:

Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

magicmac2000

:lol: Hahaha :) I will really think about this, Beth :)
Thanks a lot for interpreting it for myself.


See u,
Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

Augustus

magicmac2000 thanks for posting this.

I am new here but have been browsing the forums and this is my first post.


I wanted to say I know exactly how you feel.

I was born Jewish, but did not come from a very religious family, I married my wife who is Christian, and we raise my daughter Christian,

but I still feel very lost at times.

One of my hobbies is I became a paranormal investigator in NY/NJ a few years back mainly because I wanted to prove to myself there is life after death.

I do believe in God, but at times I am very skeptical though I should not be.  But  i i just don't know what to follow anymore, and the bible whether old or new testament just does not feel right for myself.



I have been trying to find the answers and keeping searching for the truth for a long time, but no matter how much closer I get my mind starts to doubt itself, even though not by choice.

J.K.

Hey Magicmac and all..

You ask a very meaningful question.  What I would point out that we often wind up running around in circles when we talk about God because that word means different things to different people.

See:   God - A Definition
http://reluctant-messenger.com/God.htm

As to whether there is a God or not I'm afraid that is a question that can only be answered by yourself.  It's only by asking the question and pondering the possible outcomes internally that the answer can have any meaning.

Best of luck!

magicmac2000

Quote from: Augustusmagicmac2000 thanks for posting this.
I am new here but have been browsing the forums and this is my first post.

Thanks ? Thank you guys for replying !! :) Welcome to the forums, Augustus. You will see these are very open-minded forums (in general terms) and you will feel very very nice speaking here :)
Keep going, keep searching. We will find an answer.

Quote from: J.K.As to whether there is a God or not I'm afraid that is a question that can only be answered by yourself. It's only by asking the question and pondering the possible outcomes internally that the answer can have any meaning.

Thanks JK :) I'll see that definition after posting this. And what about you ? Do you believe there is a God ? Do you always think the same way or sometimes you have doubts about this ?

Thanks a lot guys. Thanks a lot :)

Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

J.K.

Quote
And what about you ? Do you believe there is a God ?

You're brave... :wink:  lol

Yes, I believe in God but I'd best be described as a non-dualist.

For me God is nothing you can point to - no mental image you can form, and this would include the image of a man looking down from the clouds.

As soon as you've formed an image of God in your mind you've also, by default, created the idea that something exists outside of God.

Anything that can be grasped by thought is bounded.   Anything bounded is finite.  Anything that is finite is no longer infinite.

The ramifications of this line of thinking can be quite profound.  For example, for one who thinks this way God can no longer be described as just "all good."  As soon as we describe God as "all good" by default we are saying there is something that exists outside of God (i.e. bad)..  As soon as you accept the idea that something exists outside of God then God is no longer infinite.

There is, however, a way to resolve it...   :wink:

Quote
Out beyond ideas of rightdoing
and wrongdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
- Rumi

greatoutdoors

MM2000, you are far from alone, as I guess you are discovering here. I have not reached the point where I am ready to say I am "officially" anything at this point, other than an inquiring mind.

As to evolution, "Natural Selection" is an absolutely proven fact and we can see it in action every day of the week. That is how you get Chihuahuas and Great Danes from wolves; or how you get a species of crab with lines like a human face on it. However, "Evolution," meaning sudden mutation from one species to an entirely different species, is unproven, though there are some studies that show it might happen.

Evolutionary Theory is just a box scientists throw things in that they do not yet fully understand. It has no bearing on whether God exists. We know the cosmos works because of physical rules -- that's just one more of those very natural rules. There was a time when people believed that God could not exist unless the Sun revolved arond the Earth. Welll, most folks got over that opinion eventually. Don't let people mess with your mind on the subject.

I've posted before on my "Energy Sea" theory. To me, if God exists, he/she/it is likely that energy; unless that energy turns out to be just another natural rule, in which case, "God" is still hiding!  :lol:

J.K., you and I are pretty much in agreement on the true nature of God. If, however, you are saying there is no such thing as good and evil, then we will have to respectfully disagree. If there is absolutely no God, and death is the end of everything, there is still good and evil. There would simply be no higher power to slap someone's wrist if they made the wrong choices.

J.K.

Quote
J.K., you and I are pretty much in agreement on the true nature of God. If, however, you are saying there is no such thing as good and evil, then we will have to respectfully disagree.

We won't have to disagree..  :smile:

In my understanding good and evil do exist but both are relative concepts.  One is dependent on the other to define it's existance.  That is the nature of duality.

Another way I like to look at it is with numerology.  The number 3 is negative to the number 5 but positive to the number 2.  Again, this is the nature of duality - relativity.

There is an awareness that transcends the dualistic thought process of making comparisons.  That awareness can not be described in terms understandable by dualistic thought.   It can only be experienced.

We can not say it is "this" or it is "that" because to name it is to by default say there is something outside of it.

As the infinite this awareness can only be experienced, and that experience is not bound by ideas of either rightdoing or wrongdoing.  That is what Rumi was talking about.

It is beyond anything we can name or put a label on.  It is beyond anything that can be bound with speech..    :wink:

Abraham

"Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful" [Quran 27:64]

CrakRabbit

Here is my two cents on the whole Faith & Religion aspect.  Maybe it is common knowledge where you guys are at but try getting a Catholic to agree with the following ideals:
  • Faith in a higher power does not require you to association with a religious group.
  • Religion is based on the ideals of man and the material items of this reality.
  • Every Religion (even the first ones) where made to control and aspire the followers to form their lives around a material or ideal purpose.
  • The Bible is no exception to the above rule; it is material and may have been a purer form originally, but after a few hundred years of political turmoil in the Dark Ages and the book of good stories takes on a life of its own.
  • (IMO) Thus, "Bible Thumpers" are people that rather quote a story and claim that is the way we must live our lives.
  • Faith can be as little as have an idea of a higher power.[/list:u]This is all I can think of right now.  I apologize if it seems incoherent and/or kinda short.

Gandalf

Maybe it is common knowledge where you guys are at but try getting a Catholic to agree with the following ideals:

This forum is not a platform for sectarian nonsense. Why target Catholic christians specifically? You will find that a proportion of hard-core christians of any particular denomination will have problems with some or all of your points.

Doug
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

feisty

Magic, man, your Post really caught my attn., and I would like to point out a few thing's to you to consider, [1]The incredible complexity/inter-relationship's of all thing's surrounding us[life], is , to me , The Signature of God, like He is saying'Kilroy was here'When you REALLY look and understand the complexity of life, how it can even exist, you know there must be a Creator, a Designer if you will.I am not a chemist, or scientist, but I have done enough reading to know that life is impossible w/o a Creator. I am not talking of the Gawd of Chrchianity, I no longer can beleive He is as they portray Him, I see their portrayel of Him is simply control thru fear, and that sux, as I am sure other's would see. He is greater than that, and He want's us to Progress. Asking question's as you are doing is a very good thing, it show's that the real you, the one who is back in school, no longer can accept the pre-chewed morsel's of 'truth'...that you are progressing enough to want to KNOW, rather than merely 'beleive'...trust this thing, God will reveal Homself to you, but you have to open yourself to Him, be willing to experiance Him in a way that He will reveal, but you have to learn how to recognize Him, start with any syncronicitie's that happen in your life, differant 'co-incident's', as they come. :wink:

magicmac2000

Hey feisty !! :) Thanks for your tips :)
I have a different "awareness" today than when I started this post. I can't say "I KNOW GOD is there" but I think he/she is. I'm really open to him and hopefully I will experience something :)
Thanks for your tips and interest, really.

Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

Gandalf

I always think it looks weird when i see people using capitals when talking about god ie Him, His etc. I know it's a conventon from the bible but it gets kind of annoying after a bit, really jars my eyes when trying to read it!

No offence intended, I mean those who get off on that carry on.  :eek:
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

magicmac2000

Quote from: Gandalf
I always think it looks weird when i see people using capitals when talking about god ie Him, His etc. I know it's a conventon from the bible but it gets kind of annoying after a bit, really jars my eyes when trying to read it!

No offence intended, I mean those who get off on that carry on.

maybe you have to work a little bit on yourself. in this post, the only place where i see the word god with caps is where i say "I KNOW GOD is there" ... there are three words in caps but you found that only "GOD" jar your eyes  :lol:

anyway, i don't think it's a convention: you write "I" and "G"andalf in caps when you refer to yourself and i write "God" when i refer to him/herself.
even if I have to speak about my dog i say "O"laf, or my country i say "A"rgentina...

good luck with your tolerance levels :)

magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)

greatoutdoors

First I have to back up a bit and say to Beth, Well Done!! Your first post on this topic was great and covered the ground better than I could.  :smile:

Gandalf, you are right on point in your comment about those who pick on certain religions -- or faiths in general. They all have good and bad to them. As to the capitalization issue, it is just grammatically correct to do so, at least in the US. Granted, there are differences in the rules depending on where you are. The European vs. American spelling rules frequently trip me up!  :wink:

Magicmac2000, perhaps what you are looking for is similar to what I experienced on a visit to Muir Woods. I have written about it before and won't go into detail here, but that was a feeling beyond anything I have ever experienced. That, and a few other events like it, is primarly why I am working on meditation and such -- I want to know what causes it! Hang in there and take it as it comes.

Gandalf

I think I didn't make myself clear. I was not commenting on spelling God with a capital, I was referring to the practice of ALWAYS using an initial capital letter when referring to god within a sentence, eg His, Him etc

eg:
' lets talk about the greatness of Him and His might and everything to do with Him and His stuff' etc

I find it Kind of annoying but that's my own view and I know it is a convention used in the bible to basically make sure that you are talking about the big man in a particular sentence.
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Ryu-Kanjin

Magic, you are exactly where I was a few years ago, confused and looking for truths.

The only thing that you can really do is dive into the depths of human knowlage, how we as a spiecies see this universe(I'm not just talking about science, look at everything, religion, liturature, occolt practices, everything). Take it all in and find what makes sense to you. Every person sees with a different eye, you can't take what other people tell you on face value.

Find your own truths, find your own path. No one sees the universe quite like you do, so only you can answer your own questions.

Most importandly, look at things logicly (think spok from star trek  :lol:  lol). If it doen't make sense to you, then figure out why it doesn't, thats the first step to finding truth.

I have done the same thing myself and am a very happy man. No quiestion is but a few thoughts away from being answered, because i understand how i see this universe.
Dont look at the world around you with your eyes, use your soul, and you will see more then you have ever imagined.

magicmac2000

Ryu-Kanjin: thanks for your nice reply :) I'm on that path ... but just to kill my curiosity, can u tell me what you found ?

1) Is there a God at all for you ?
2) Is there an afterlife for you ?
3) Why is it so difficult to "be a better man" ?

Shoot! Every day I try to carve myself but I catch me being again the same damn way :(

Thanks a lot,
Magic.
-Still can't find the Truth.
    (If there is one)