Miracles of the Qur'an

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Beth

p.s.

I agree that there has to be a better way as well...so...I would also like to learn more about Frank's idea of a 'third way'...  

--bp
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Gandalf

Hey, Welcome back Beth!

Long time no see!

As you may have noticed, the three religion forums have been combined into one general 'world religions' section to cover everything.

This makes more sense as we are afterall primarily an astral projection/exploration forums, not a religious forum persay.

Hopefully catch you around!

Doug
"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Beth

Hey Doug!

Yes, I noticed the change....not a problem for me at all!

And may I say that as usual you are doing a 'marvelous' job moderating!

I will check in more often throughout the summer....


:D   -- Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

James S

Hello again Beth,
Lovely to see you... well, your words... again.

"These texts were poetic texts and should be read as such."

Thank you! I've been fumbling around trying to think of a way of describing a "language of the heart", and you've very nicely mentioned the type of written language can be so - poetry.

As I mentioned before, when spirits communicate with people, verbal language is the most inneficient form they can use. Poetic texts can however, when well written, convey more feeling, more visualisations than say a journal or document of events. But even modern poetry requires the reader to be capable of understanding the images being formed in the words as the writer intended. This is a good example of what I was eluding to.

I feel then that I was wrong in saying that we are better able to communicate concepts now than we were a few thousand years ago. What you indicate here Beth, tells me that the writers of these texts we struggle with were exceptionally skilled with words.

Blessings,
James.

Beth

Hey James!!  Nice to 'read' you again too!

Without doubt, these ancient writers were literary genii...and when these texts are approached from an ancient standpoint, instead of through centuries of religious positioning and editing, that literary genius is a wonder to behold.  

Like I said, a very small slice of the population of antiquity were educated/literate enough to be able to create these texts, let alone critique each other's work, so originally, each and every text stood on its own.  What we have with the bible and other religious works, are collections of these ancient writings, and the authors of these texts were very well educated.  

Poetic writings are oftentimes written in such a way as to make them 'subjective' in that the written images may evoke one thing for one person but something quite different for another.  These particular subjective evocations, however, were not necessarily the intended meaning by the original author.  Because these ancient writers are not here to verify which interpretation is the correct one, readers are left to their own subjective devices.

These poetic images can certainly be used as symbolic data, so can certainly be used as communications from other non-physical entities, but even then, it is still subjective to the person receiving the message.  

Bottom line, working with the actual texts and determining the many possible translations is one thing...determining the actual meaning of any one of them is quite another!  

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

James S

Mohammed,

I agree with what you say in your last post.

I came from a Christian background, and was taught (almost militantly so)that the Bible is the ONLY true word of God.

Since then, I have turned from religious ways and now travel the path of a spiritualist. What amuses me is, when I leave out the obviously humanistic bits, I can see spiritual truths within the bible far more now than I did then. What's more, I see spiritual truths in ALL major religious texts. The thing I find funny is that religious die-hards would staunchly object to the idea that all their holy texts contain the same messages, just worded differently to better suit the "target audience" culture they were written for.

While I still believe that dependence on technological development has taken us further away from our Mother Earth, and the connection we have with the myriad of living things around us,  I firmly believe there is a balance to be found in using technology to better the quality of our living standards, and retaining a connection to Nature and the life around us.

Just on a semi-related tangient...
As mentioned before, I am both a spiritualist and a computer engineer. I'm a reiki channel and crystal healer, a medium and a numerologist. I've written numerology software to assist me in the practice of providing spiritual guidance to others. I allow intuition to guide me when developing my software, so I know it will serve me well.

When working out programming problems, I will sometimes take my laptop, go into the forest and sit up against a tree, as I feel the energies of the forest to be cleansing and invigorating. I often feel the spirits around me when I do so. They don't particularly like some of the EM emissions the laptop gives off - they find the emissions "dirty", but they are still interested to help me in my endeavours to help provide guidance and healing to others.

As long as we don't become so overly absorbed in one world that we close ourselves off the other, there is a very useful balance to be found between the two.
...such as spending a few hours in meditation with the spirits in the local forest, then coming home to my entertainment system, arming myself with a plasma rifle, rocket launcher and lots of grenades, and blowing the heads off Covenant forces in Halo 2.
Most satisfying! :wink:

Blessings,
James.

James S

Hi again Beth,

I just read your last post.

I wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?

We're not all on the same journey, and it's arrogant for anyone to think that we should be. If different people can get different spiritually beneficial messages from these writings, to me, that makes them all the more "Divine".

Blessings,
James.

patapouf

Quote from: James SHi again Beth,

I just read your last post.

I wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?

We're not all on the same journey, and it's arrogant for anyone to think that we should be. If different people can get different spiritually beneficial messages from these writings, to me, that makes them all the more "Divine".

Blessings,
James.

I agree with you, it is essential in this globalizing world nowadays to adopt a better cultural relativist approach instead of using this ethnocentric ''narrow minded'' kind of view that many people of this ''modern civilization'' tend to have. As for the ''journeys''; they're are more than one trail going up to the top of a mountain; some might prefer a specific trail but others might use another one. This do not mean that your trail is ''better'' than mine since we will both see each other at the top. It's a cheezy and an old regurgitated metaphor but it represent this kind of approach somehow....

Take care,

Beth

Dear James,

You wrote:
QuoteI wonder if part of the beauty of these ancient texts is that they can mean different things to different people?

Absolutely!  And to concretize these texts into one interpretation is to cheat the writings of their spiritual efficacy, as well as to cheat the reader out of the opportunity to receive whatever subjective message could have been available.

We are speaking here specifically of the bible, but there is also very beautiful poetry in the Qu'ran and the many other religious texts we have inherited.  And then there is also Shakespeare and Goethe, Milton and Wallace Stevens, et al, giants of the written word...even the 'cry in your beer' songwriters that we have today can touch the deepest part of our hearts and minds...

Written and spoken communication, whether in plain texts, metaphorical texts, symbols, poetry or song, our voices, our eyes and our ability to reason are all crucial communication tools, whether between each of us here, or between us and the divine.  That is the way that it is with being human...and if the divine desires communication with us, believe me, they will use whatever tools they have at hand!

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

shedt

Quote from: James S

As long as we don't become so overly absorbed in one world that we close ourselves off the other, there is a very useful balance to be found between the two.
...such as spending a few hours in meditation with the spirits in the local forest, then coming home to my entertainment system, arming myself with a plasma rifle, rocket launcher and lots of grenades, and blowing the heads off Covenant forces in Halo 2.
Most satisfying! :wink:

Blessings,
James.

i love your post James. What you say really makes sense, although many man object to your point of view. Technology I guess is a tool for us to use, to help connect to what we need.

oh! if you play online add me to your friend list:

shedt V is my gamertag.

I really love also to read Gandalf's post, learning the history of things is really great. I love also how you say that you can find spiritual truths in the bible more so now. very cool indeed!

shedt

Quote from: Beth
I could of course go on and on, but I will finish up by pointing out another very important aspect of this same root:

Shem or the adverb 'there' is also the exact same word as the regular noun "name."  So...

shemi may mean "heaven" and/or "sky", but ...
shemi also means "My Name."  

Just some points to ponder...

Peace,
Beth

woah thats wonderful, it makes me think that maybe they ment heaven is us, or from within us... at least that is what first jumps to my mind :)

Beth

Dear Shedt,

You wrote:
Quotewoah thats wonderful, it makes me think that maybe they ment heaven is us, or from within us... at least that is what first jumps to my mind

:D yes, it is pretty amazing stuff when you find out more about these ancient languages and then think about the textual possibilites:  

"In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth..."Gen 1:1

In the actual scripture it reads in the plural as heavens, or skies or even as the names.  All of these options are correct meanings of the word and each are worthy of consideration...

Peace, :)
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Berserk

The Quran recounts several miracles associated with Jesus infancy.  How could one ever know whether any of these are true?   If they lacked historical precedent in early Christian tradtion, the Muslim might reply that Allah is independent of man's tradition. Being all-knowing, Allah knows what really happened.  But in fact, the Jesus stories in the Quran often find striking parallels with Christian tradition.  The parallels to these miracle stories are taken from universally discredited Christian infancy Gospels variously composed from the late 2nd to the 5th century CE.  Far from being revealed by Allah or Gabriel, they are sheer fiction.  Their use by Muhammad is just another indicator that his revelation is bogus.

Beth

Berserk,

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same legends, even if they interpret them a bit differently.

To a certain extent, Christianity was built in response to Judaism even though it took more than three centuries to take its hold.   By the time Islam came on the scene, Christianity had very firmly absconded Judaism in its own way, and the Islamic religion was built in response to them both.  There were, without doubt, heavy political influences behind the success of them all.

Each of these religions find their roots in the bible, one way or another; just as the Christians have the New Testament to suppliment the Old Testament, the Muslims have the Quran to suppliment both the Old and New Testaments.  They are all, however, of one root: Abraham being the father of them all, his second son Isaac for Judaism and Christianity, and his first son Ishmael for Islam.  This is one of the reasons why the Islamic world and Israel continue to fight over the City of Jerusalem and the land that surrounds it: each claim that God 'gave it' to them alone.  The early Christian Crusades were all about re-claiming Jerusalem from the Moors (the early Muslims) but it was not until the post-WWII era of the late 1940's, that Israel, with the help of the United States, became a Jewish state in its own right to be governed as such.  

An additional point that may help clarify, is that Judaism supposedly claimed that the 'prophets' ceased with the close of their scriptures.  The Christians came along making John the Baptist a prophet, and Jesus as the Messiah.  Islam did not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, but did acknowledge him as a Prophet.  Then Islam did the same as Judaism and claimed that the 'prophets ceased' with Mohammud.  

This is all very simply put, for there is always a lot more that needs to be considered such as the long-held possession of the land now known as Israel, but in the end this is basically what has happened.  

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Berserk

Beth,

I taught comparative religion in a university for 12 years.  Your vague statements about the 3 faiths sharing the same traditions is only true in a very general way.  To call Old and New Testament traditions legendary only begs the question and betrays your bias.  In fact, many of Jesus' resurrection appearances can be securely linked with eyewitness testimony through Paul.  The Gospel of Mark and the Q sayings source can also be linked through Papias with eyewitness testimony despite redactional influences.  My point is that there is no disagreement, liberal or conservative,  about the historical veracity of the infancy Gospels that underlie the Koran and therefore no question about whether they derive from Allah.  I can demonstrate this in detail if you wish.

Beth

Berserk,

You cannot convince me that any of the events in the Bible actually occured; I know better than that.  

If you taught comparative religion for 12 years with the assumption that the biblical narratives were historical and not a collection of legends and fictional creativity, then you did not teach a true "comparative religions" course.  What you taught was a course that compared all other religions with Christianity which is not a true comparison at all.

A true 'comparative religion' class would compare the way in which each religion grew into what it eventually became, including its own choice of legends, its own canon of writings (or oral tradition), any hierarchy that may have been implimented, whether there were exoteric rituals, etc., and how the religions managed to survive as long as they did, i.e., through political, civil and territorial control.  

All you are doing is trying to 'compare' fiction with history, if you are saying that the events of the bible actually occurred, and that Berserk, is not being a responsible teacher at all.

Peace,
Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Berserk

Beth,

Again, you are making absurd assumptions about someone you do not know.  I have a PhD from Harvard and am schooled in the History of Religions approach to this phenomenon (Wilfred Cantwell Smith, etc.).  I merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend".  True, the Bible contains some legends.  But in each case, you must use historical-critical tools to assess the provenance of each tradition.  Some are easier to link with historical evidence than others.  But no scholar, and I do mean no scholar, would credit the historical value of the very late Infancy Gospels on which Muhammad relies in his Jesus' traditions.   Would you like me to outline the history of the early oral tradition about Jesus' sayings and deeds?  You are apparently unaware of biblical text criticism and the basics of canoncial formation.

In any case, you again miss the point. You can embrace or dismiss Judaism or Christianity as you choose.  The point of my original post was that Muhammad's materlal about Jesus is substantially derived from discredited apocryphal material and therefore not from Allah or any other supernatural agency.

Berserk

Beth

Berserk,

You say:
QuoteI merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend". True, the Bible contains some legends.

Actually, it is quite simple Berserk: the Bible is a collection of legends and other creative storytelling devices.  There is no historical veracity at all; there are no 'eyewitnesses' to anything. Period.  

To make sure you understand what I am saying, 'Christianity' as an established religion definately has a historical tradition, but the events of the Bible do not.  Christianity does not =The Bible.

If all you were trying to say is that the infancy gospels were fiction, then why didn't you just simply say that?  For in this we definately agree.  But other than that, and with everything else you state, I am not really sure why we need to continue with this debate; as scholars, we just disagree.

Beth

p.s.  This is not an academic forum Berserk.  Waving your credentials does not impress people as much as you might think.  I am certainly not impressed by your boasting; the appeal to your own authority is not only logically fallacious, but also quite arrogant.   I try very hard to make my posts as 'simple' as possible so that those who have not had the benefit of studying religion academically can benefit from the knowledge that I have obtained.  But I would never imply that any of these seekers are 'simple-minded' in the way in which you appear to have been addressing me.
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Ybom

Beth,
Let me try :wink: Sorry to dissect a post directed at you

Berserk,
Quote from: BerserkI have a PhD from Harvard and am schooled in the History of Religions approach to this phenomenon (Wilfred Cantwell Smith, etc.).
I call this 'Degree Waving' or downtalking. Why would you talk down to anyone like this?

QuoteI merely object to your simple-minded use of the term "legend".
Are you sure this is the only thing you object to?

QuoteTrue, the Bible contains some legends.  But in each case, you must use historical-critical tools to assess the provenance of each tradition.  Some are easier to link with historical evidence than others.  But no scholar, and I do mean no scholar, would credit the historical value of the very late Infancy Gospels on which Muhammad relies in his Jesus' traditions. Would you like me to outline the history of the early oral tradition about Jesus' sayings and deeds?  You are apparently unaware of biblical text criticism and the basics of canoncial formation.
Isn't comparative religion about comparing religions with minimal bias? Can you explain to us non-degree holders why you explicitly base your classes on a Christian (or possibly Catholic) slant?

QuoteIn any case, you again miss the point. You can embrace or dismiss Judaism or Christianity as you choose.  The point of my original post was that Muhammad's materlal about Jesus is substantially derived from discredited apocryphal material and therefore not from Allah or any other supernatural agency.
I respect you and your diligence in coming to this theory, but...

...to me it would be impossible for you to convince me that the Bible and the people in it are as credible as a textbook in a history class. I bet you anything I would make it through your class, but I would be hard pressed to figure out who would end up changed more (you or I) when class was over.

and finally;
QuoteAgain, you are making absurd assumptions about someone you do not know.
We don't know you personally, but we know who you are trying to be. You are not my God, Dr Berserk. You have no power over us except what you are given by God as a human. We all make mistakes, including yourself. I believe your biggest mistake is by turning the Bible into a serious document meant for historical accuracy. Wouldn't it be much better if it was used as a book of morals to teach others that it is better to love than to hate no matter what? Wouldn't it be better if we all strived to be the image portrayed by Jesus? Wouldn't it be better if everyone gave and expected nothing in return? I also did not notice anywhere where Beth was making assumptions about you.

As a last request, what can I provide to you of myself? Would you like me to accept everything you say blindly as truth and to metaphorically kiss your feet? I already have, because I believe there is much good in you, despite what everyone else says about you. I want to know how you truly believe, so please try harder to convey it.

Thanks.
I come prepared...with COOKIES! No, you can't have one!

Ybom

By the way;

Quote from: BerserkI taught comparative religion in a university for 12 years.  Your vague statements about the 3 faiths sharing the same traditions is only true in a very general way.  To call Old and New Testament traditions legendary only begs the question and betrays your bias.  In fact, many of Jesus' resurrection appearances can be securely linked with eyewitness testimony through Paul.  The Gospel of Mark and the Q sayings source can also be linked through Papias with eyewitness testimony despite redactional influences.  My point is that there is no disagreement, liberal or conservative,  about the historical veracity of the infancy Gospels that underlie the Koran and therefore no question about whether they derive from Allah.  I can demonstrate this in detail if you wish.

Can I speak with your eyewitnesses please? Testimony doesn't count! I must speak with them!
I come prepared...with COOKIES! No, you can't have one!

Berserk

Beth patronized me like I was an ignorant child.  So I merely let her know that my training is as good or better then hers.  Posters on this site raise questions as if they had a broom rammed up their butts.  I can address issues  with excruciating courtesy if you can demonstrate you are house-broken with at least a modicum of historical literacy.  No wonder you drove Robert Bruce away from this site!

Ybom says, "[Historical] Testimonies don't count.  I must speak to eyewitnesses."  Duh, so let me get this straight.  You think that history is bogus discipline because its sources are mostly deceased and you can no longer speak to eyewitnesses?

Beth

Berserk,

I will not have a p***ing contest with you, or anyone for that matter.  The quality of one's education is not in the institution attended, or the degrees earned, but rather, in the quality of the work of the scholar.

I did not answer you like I was speaking to a child (although that may well have been the case seeing how you are reacting) but rather, when someone posts to this forum I do not know what their educational background is, nor would that change the way that I would respond.

As I said, this is not an academic forum.  I do not use academic language--on purpose--nor do I use my education to set myself up as an 'adult' that speaks down to a 'child'.  

As a moderator of this forum, I would normally PM you first, but since you do not seem to mind engaging me publically, here is your warning:  be careful of the content of your posts.  I am specifically referring to your most recent one:
QuotePosters on this site raise questions as if they had a broom rammed up their butts
Now, since you have responded like a child, I will moderate accordingly: be a good boy Berserk and we will continue to let you post to this forum. If not, then disciplinary action will have to be taken.

Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

patapouf

The notion that the bible is all fiction is as interpretative as the one who says that the bible is entirely historical. What is the real approach? Good question! I studied in cultural anthropology and anthropologists can not even get the same results with the study of the same cultures with the same informants (this is done in the present time!). This made one really great realization that both historians and anthropologists came with just recently: it is highly interpretative. And if we deal with analyzing past cultures that dates back 2000 years ago, you have to deal with the notion that your theories are even more interpretative folks..... And now if you deal with a legends which is a metaphor that relates to ''an image'' and this imagery can mean a thousand words.... Well, you have thousands of different interpretations of course. Now wheter it is true or not is still as interpretative (also depending on the type of analysis you are doing and the hypothesis you might have). To be open to different possibilities is essential....

As a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems.  But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!!  :D  

Take care,

Ybom

Quote from: patapoufAs a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems.  But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!!  :D  

I agree with everything up to this point, however, this paragraph raised a red flag. I will briefly state an example based on the ficticious works of one Piers Anthony. He created a world in a series of his books called "Xanth" as a play on his name. Strangely, the region of Xanth is shaped exactly like the state of Florida, which just happens to be his home.

Obviously this work is ficticious, but why would he create a world in the shape of something real? Would it appeal to some of his readers if they could visualize something known to them as a waypoint into his world? Possibly.

What I'm getting at is I believe one to be naive to dismiss the idea of the Bible being a conspiracy to control a large mass of people through fear and self-opression. I hope this theory is bogus and I like to disbelieve it, but totally avoiding it is just ignorant. Again, I would never ask anyone to accept it simply due to the sheer negativity of it, but I would whole heartedly ask everyone to realize that there is this big risk in supporting it.

Personally, I take a more Agnostic approach to religion. I believe that society in its infinite wisdom has turned me into a lowly human, who doesn't understand the full concept of what is considered God. I put the blame also squarely on my own shoulders because I am afraid to take specific risks due to certain road blocks that society imposes on me. I am afraid to even make certain wise choices because it most likely will involve death. But even with all of this blockage, I think I have made a very wise descision on focusing on the limits of such a faith, which are very complex and thought inducing.
I come prepared...with COOKIES! No, you can't have one!

James S

Quote from: patapouf
As a personal opinion, I do not think the bible is entirely a fictious work, why use so many geographical regions that can be clearly identified with only fictious characters? This is not logical it seems.  But I do not know how true or what may have happened; again, like I've said, it is open to many interpretations!!  :D  
That does make sense, although when you look at the writings of authors like Michael Crichton or Dan Brown, or even authors like Anne McCaffrey (who uses some of the world's top astronomers and astrophysicists as technical consultants), they use a good deal of well researched information as vehicles for their fiction. I tend to look upon it as the mark of a good author. Gets you in to the story better when there's some believable aspect to it.

Beserk,
Academic credential does not indicate the measure of one's wisdom.

Let your words be your credentials.

Thanks,
James.

[edit]
P.S.
Jeez Ybom, Gotta be quick around here! Patapouf is going to feel like we're ganging up on him now! :)