Miracles of the Qur'an

[Ybom]

James,
Yes I know lol. Isn't it strange how we essentially said the same thing in two completely different ways though?

Patapouf,
I promise we're not trying to gang up on you! You made a good point about this being open to many interpretations, but you really did drop your defenses to anyone who reads fictional works based on real places.

[patapouf]

[edit]
P.S.
Jeez Ybom, Gotta be quick around here! Patapouf is going to feel like we're ganging up on him now!

 You ''interpreted'' how I would possibly react!! But it is totally the opposite James! Do not worry.... I do not feel like being attacked or anything. This is an argumentative discussion, if you can say things that contradict what I'm saying, you better do it! Thanks for letting me know that I might wrongly interpret what you said here. But it did not even come close to my mind and I was surprised of your reactions. Good point you made about Dan Brown and there are probably other examples also (of course, how many movies can we see using this approach!). My argumentative approach was with the ''interpretative perspective''. I do not know shlit about what happened during those days and only gave my opinion on the subject (what I thought basically), and, as you could see, was extremely vague. But I do not think that the bible was made to be an entertainment read like Dan Brown's, I do not think that writing such complicated novel was being done like we do nowadays( this is an opinion again, feel free to say what you think on it!!). The problem is that it is extremely hard to conclude for ''how true'' the bible is since there is so many possibilities.... Anyway, feel free to argument on the subject!  And please both Beth and Berserck should continue a constructive argumentation, it might be interesting since they studied in the same type of discipline (it seems....).

Take care,

[Beth]

Hey all!  

Yes, Patapouf, you are absolutely correct to say that "interpretation" is virtually everything when it comes to experiencing the world that we live in.  Whether it be initimate, social, political or religious, we each have the ability to 'interpret' reality a little differently.  

While we agree on many things, e.g., the weather, the solidity of matter, the sensations of cold and hot, etc., many, many things are open to interpretation.  For example: "What did he mean by that statement?"  "Was he kidding, or was he serious?"  "Is she being honest with me, or is she secretly betraying my trust?"  Oftentimes we jump to conclusions, not based upon a 'shared reality' but one that is created in our own minds.  Also, even if "she" was initially betraying "him" as soon as she begins to be honest with him again, the 'reality' of the situation changes.  And this is the life that we all lead:  'reality' is in constant motion, and it is ultimately up to each individual to make of it what we will.  

Now, as for Berserk and myself, yes, I am sure that we have studied many of the same topics, but we have each come away from that same material with different 'interpretations' of the reality of these ancient situations.  But, I must admit that I have access to research that Berserk has never seen, so I now have an unfair advantage.  But...I also came to the same conclusion through my own reasoning ability many years ago.  This new research only confirmed what I truly thought was the case.

Peace,
Beth

[patapouf]

[quote="Ybom] What I'm getting at is I believe one to be naive to dismiss the idea of the Bible being a conspiracy to control a large mass of people through fear and self-oppression. I hope this theory is bogus and I like to disbelieve it, but totally avoiding it is just ignorant. Again, I would never ask anyone to accept it simply due to the sheer negativity of it, but I would whole heartedly ask everyone to realize that there is this big risk in supporting it.

[/quote]

I also encountered some of these perspective in relation with the conspiracy theories (one example of it is David Icke) and, as a matter of fact, it is a possibility. I do believe that the Christian religion as been used as repressive tool but I do not necessarily think that it was entirely conceptualized to primarily use it in such a way; maybe it was borrowed and shaped by different individuals.... This is hard to tell

[quote="Ybom]
Patapouf,
I promise we're not trying to gang up on you! You made a good point about this being open to many interpretations, but you really did drop your defenses to anyone who reads fictional works based on real places.
[/quote]

When I first read I laughed because I realized my mistake. I mostly associate legends with many long lasting or ''old'' cultures that we can find around the world. Many of them (ex: Indians) use legends to remind them of many important cultural notions they want to pass on to the next generations. Contrary to the fictious kind of story that our mother or father used to read to us before we went to sleep, many of those legends contains such important cultural concepts that they want to pass on and to recite it into such a metaphorical way is the best way to remember it and ''spread the word''. Some anthropologists will attempt to demystify it because they do or might contain some historical events that happened and affected this particular culture some times ago  and it also contains many relevant cultural information. But the informants will also have different views on what it means, how it happened, etc. Usually, legends can be told and not only read.

Again, what or how the bible has been conceptualized; I don't have a clue and I don't want to get lost too much on all those theories.... I assume that it was written in such a similar fashion but this is a personal hypothesis here but I can not really say if it is the case of course and I know that there are many possible scenarios. The topic is on the Q'ran....
Oops.    

Take care,

[Ybom]

Actually the topic was more aligned at modern miracles compared to verses in the Qu'ran, and then at some point just after, someone did nearly identical with the Bible.

Now, given that both of these probably have an additional line (many places on the web) "this cannot be done with any other religious book" just pushes the theory that there are people out there trying to opress other viewpoints from their readers. I also reread my post, and I used a very bad term within it. Conspiracy. Maybe I should've seeked a more desireable phrase.

Another point I will bring up. I recently suggested a religion center for the church my parents go to. They considered it and still nothing has popped up. It's like they took my really good suggestion and swept it under the carpet as quietly as possible trying to avoid crushing anyone's toes in the process.

[Beth]

Hey all,

Has anyone considered that 'miracles' such as those in the Bible and even in the Quran are metaphorical?  For example, in the NT we read of certain 'healings' such as 'making the blind see', and  'making the lame walk'.  These particular narrative stories could also be read as parables, in that, 'opening ones spiritual eyes' is the cessation of 'spiritual blindness' and likewise, 'healing ones physical walk through life' is helping them to begin to 'walk their spiritual path' --  "Pick up your pallet and sin no more."

I thought about this possibility many years ago and long before I studied these texts academically.  There are of course other options but, these are the most commonly quoted.  Even the initial post that got this thread started is showing where the Quranic verses are metaphorical or symbolic of later scientific discoveries.  

Both of these books are amazing canons of literature.  It is too bad that people want to make them so much more than that by risking 'Reason' to justify them as their God's holy writ--and to use them to 'misuse' their own power (yes, as a tool of prejudice, intolerance, oppression and sometimes even as a 'weapon of mass destruction'.)

Peace,
Beth

[patapouf]

Hey all,

Has anyone considered that 'miracles' such as those in the Bible and even in the Quran are metaphorical?  For example, in the NT we read of certain 'healings' such as 'making the blind see', and  'making the lame walk'.  These particular narrative stories could also be read as parables, in that, 'opening ones spiritual eyes' is the cessation of 'spiritual blindness' and likewise, 'healing ones physical walk through life' is helping them to begin to 'walk their spiritual path' --  "Pick up your pallet and sin no more."

I thought about this possibility many years ago and long before I studied these texts academically.  There are of course other options but, these are the most commonly quoted.  Even the initial post that got this thread started is showing where the Quranic verses are metaphorical or symbolic of later scientific discoveries.  

Both of these books are amazing canons of literature.  It is too bad that people want to make them so much more than that by risking 'Reason' to justify them as their God's holy writ--and to use them to 'misuse' their own power (yes, as a tool of prejudice, intolerance, oppression and sometimes even as a 'weapon of mass destruction'.)

Peace,
Beth

Yeah this is also a logical explanation, the problem is that some people observe miracles performed today so they also associate the notion that probably such a man could do it also in the past. We see nowadays people that seems to heal like Jesus was doing, is it a fraud? good question.... (but rarely we will see someone walk on water of course). I encountered in another forum someone talking about this dude that was an extremely powerful healer. Anyway.... Take a look at this and tell me what ya think folks.... It's an interesting story.

John of God

Take care,

[Beth]

Patapouf,

I have no doubt that people have the ability to heal themselves as well as others; I have healed myself enough times to know this to be the case (although menapause is proving to be a real booger!       )  

As far as "Jesus" is concerned, that is part of the beauty of the narrative nature of the bible, that it can relate a 'parable' or 'story' that illustrates 'what reality can be for everyone' through a story that relates that truth for only one.  

In other words, 'opening one's spiritual eyes' and 'helping one to walk a spiritual path' is the beginning of helping one to learn that 'phyiscal healing' can come from their own hands, whether it be to heal themselves or to heal others.  

The problem with believing that only one person -- or only a precious few -- can do these 'miraculous things' only serves to separate us from the very spiritual awareness that we all need (at least I presume we all need it.)

This John guy may well be able to do these things, but as the biblical narrative states: "These things I do you can do also---and much, much more!"

I think everyone should be their own Savior...

Peace,
Beth

[patapouf]

The problem with believing that only one person -- or only a precious few -- can do these 'miraculous things' only serves to separate us from the very spiritual awareness that we all need (at least I presume we all need it.)

This John guy may well be able to do these things, but as the biblical narrative states: "These things I do you can do also---and much, much more!"

I think everyone should be their own Savior...

Peace,
Beth

I agree 100% with you on that principle; I do not think Jesus's goal is to make such a hierarchical type of view of every humans on the planet. Some people that possess nothing as ''psychic talents'' whatsoever might accomplish much more than someone who might possess some but  do not have the compassionate heart that goes with it. A gifted psychic may not be more ''evolved'' of course since many can do bad things with it (''Neg'' can be some kind of example that might fit this criteria....). As living in a human body, being Jesus or anybody else, we are all at the same ''level'' somehow because we all have to go to the bathroom and wipe our azz after.... Jesus's approach of the resurrection principle is and in many other aspects also such as your quotation ''these things I do you can do also---and much, much more!" (this is my personal opinion here) mostly want to tell us that there is much more to what we may experience with our physical body; to come back after being crucified is a really good example of course. This means there is more than this physical body. And beware to some that use the two extremist principles mix together (scientific materialism and biblical literalism) and state that when it is written in the bible that we will be ''resurrected'' at the end of days it means that ''science'' will now be able to ''resurrect'' us (of course they associate this process with cloning....). As a matter of fact, cloning may be one totally logical type of association but it is so contradictory with the rest of the bible and so many other principle in relation with spirituality. Anyway.... I hope that people will not start to make this kind of association too much in the future....

Take care,

[chohan]

The parallels to these miracle stories are taken from universally discredited Christian infancy Gospels variously composed from the late 2nd to the 5th century CE.  Far from being revealed by Allah or Gabriel, they are sheer fiction.  Their use by Muhammad is just another indicator that his revelation is bogus.

According to this Jesus bloke in the Gospel of Mark:

"Why does this generation demand a sign? I assure you: No sign will be given to this generation!"

he did no signs. Therefore, the signs, miracles and wonders he finds himself surrounded by in the gospels are sheer fiction. I notice Paul never mentions them in his epistles, which btw are dated earlier than the miracle filled gospels. There use by 'Mark' and other gospel writers is just another indicator that their revelation is bogus.

Perhaps Mark and Muhammad should arm wrestle and settle this dispute.

cheers,
cho

[James S]

"Both of these books are amazing canons of literature."
Yes, I'll definitely go along with that.

Interstingly, during my time spent in the christian church, I couldn't see past the dogmas and prejudices against other religious texts. I too was caught up by the interpretations of literal meanings.
Recently though, I've spent much time with a friend looking through copies of both the Bible and the Qur'an, and also comparing these with Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations With God series.

It was was the Conversations With God series that really helped me to put the pieces together into something that made sense. This series are not religious books in any way shape or form. They are purely spiritual dialogues written by someone who doesn't even try to push the point that it IS actually God he's speaking with, just a higher level of consciousness that is very good at putting things into perspectives that we often struggle to see.

The perspectives of CWG presented a different way of looking at the bible. Not literally, but metaphorically, just as Beth has been trying to point out all along. Both the Bible and Qur'an were written using the language of the time to present spiritual concepts on varying levels that made more sense the more you were able to incorporate their meaning into your life. I would even go as far as to say they were (originally) inspired by God - that is, the wisdom attained by being connected with the higher consciousness that is our spirit beings.

Throughout history, people who have made this higher connection and attained this wisdom have been sharing it wisdom with others. The commonalities between all spiritual texts can be so plainly seen once the "literal" wrappings are taken off and we look at the messages that were meant to be presented.

What is unfortunate is the large number of "swine", the spiritually unuware, that have had these pearls cast before them, and choose only to see literal words, and translate them in such ways as to server their own purposes.

Blessings,
James.

[JKK]

sorry if this has been talked about before..but what are your guys take on Muhammad's visit to the 7 heavens/planes...am I the only one making all the out of body connections

[Beth]

JKK,

No, you are not the only one to make these connections!! However, few people really want to 'see' that what is at the base of most 'religion' is the basic search for God/Higher Power/Higher Self/Universal Understanding.   The same 'base' of what most projectors are searching for as well.

Well, that is not entirely true.  Let me clarify.  "Religion" in and of itself is 'a medium' through which people 'feel connected to god'.  "Religion proper", that is, the heirarchies, the dogmas, prejudices, etc., are actually very far removed from being what some people need most out of religion.  

One aspect provides a medium to seek out into the universe (mysticism), the other aspect (church/synagogue/mosque) is almost its polar opposite: it keeps people 'very well stuck' and 'very much controlled' here on this plane. Interesting dichotomy huh?

In western religion, which has a Greco-Roman base, Judaism, Chrisitianity and Islam all share the same literary roots, as well as much the same 'mystical tradition' with significant similarities in the way it is discussed.  The 'seven heavens' are found in Judaism through Merkabah Mysticism, and in 2Corinthians chapter 12, you can read about one of these heavens in the New Testament. According to the literature, Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Paul and Mohammed all had ecstatic (mystical) experiences.

These mystery traditions, while based within each of their respective exoteric religions, probably stayed somewhat intimate for many centuries passing the esoteric knowledge down through generations of initiates, even as the exoteric religions themselves grew more distinct (and for the most part bitter rivals.)  

If you are interested in the 7 heavens, then I encourage you to check further into Sufism, into the earlier Merkabah Mysticism (NOT the vehicle thingy that is supposedly available today that will 'take you there'---you 'cannot build a Merkabah!' Nor do I think a 'merkabah' to be some energy field that surrounds your body.  I do not care what anyone says!)  

I believe these writings are being 'descriptive' of what it is like for some people when they travel through the astral, or at least, as esoteric literature, it provides 'key words/ideas' that work within your subconscious to create a certain goal and astral backdrop that can be anchored within your own religious tradition. But to expect these texts to be 'prescriptive' of what you 'will' or 'should' experience is really just setting yourself up for possible disappointment. Let your experience be your own, and do not let anything or anyone dictate what that should be!

Times are also changing: some people want 'science' to do what 'mysticism' has done in the past, and perhaps that will be the way of it in the future.  I think it matters not in the longrun, for the astral is the astral and I think that most of us would agree that there is a lot that we do not know about the universe!  

But check it out for yourself!  Investigate whatever 'turns you on' (so to speak!)  Please feel free to share with AP members whatever you end up experiencing!  

Peace, (and happy travels!)
Beth

[genep]

In my previous life things were more vivid than now.

In this previous life the Qur'an was called the Bible and the Bible was called the Qur'an.
And you are right,  the Qur'an had the best miracles.

[Ybom]

In my previous life things were more vivid than now.

In this previous life the Qur'an was called the Bible and the Bible was called the Qur'an. And you are right,  the Qur'an had the best miracles.

Along with the Bible? I like your take on this, since logic has only partial place in the spiritual realm.

[genep]

Along with the Bible? I like your take on this, since logic has only partial place in the spiritual realm.

If language did not shackle us to this material world we would be playing in the spiritual heavens we need to be gods... and the material world would, at best, be in the background.