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Author Topic: Modern Christianity is a Lie  (Read 9729 times)
Kalonek
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2004, 20:15:26 »

quote:
Originally posted by FreeFaller


i feel its a lie but only in what people think. and to back up my arguement im gonna use how people say god hates this or god hates that. it is true he disapproves in stuff, but thats our nature and he forgives us. i hate it how people say god hates things that i believe is not true in the bible he says he loves all even his enemies.



You're right FreeFaller. I've stutied theology at university and it's so flabbergasting how some christians doesn't really know what they are believing in and saying that kind of things. You're right as God is PURE Love. The sin is not an act but the rejection of His total Love. He even loves Hitler and Staline. It's why in christianity we are already saved ! There is a huge misconception on this point in many minds. Jesus has already saved humanity and God wants everyone to come back to Him, even Satan etc as He loves all his childs. It's only ego and shame that can prevent his Love to go through our heart and forgive everything. (I'm talking in the point of view of a christian here).
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onefromsomewhereelse
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2004, 01:24:53 »

Yahweh is more than just pure love; He is also pure justice.   God doesn't love sin, and this includes those not His people, such as Hitler.  Sorry to bring you back to reality.
Children don't have to learn sin; they inherit it.  I see children sin all the time, including babies.  When they don't get their way, they cry.  That's sin, aka:  selfishness manifest in the flesh.   Get real.
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2004, 01:24:53 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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mustang
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2004, 09:51:46 »

onefromsomewhereelse writes
 
quote:
Children don't have to learn sin; they inherit it. I see children sin all the time, including babies. When they don't get their way, they cry. That's sin, aka: selfishness manifest in the flesh. Get real.


Children sin by crying for attention? Inadvertently reveals just how Christianity is so intellectually bankrupt, never mind morally bankrupt too. Seems that onefromsomewhereelse has maybe spent too much time in the oxygen deprivation chambers that go by the name of churches. The resulting lack of oxygenated blood to the brain can result in the kind of madness that sees a baby's instinct for survival being dubbed sin, the only way a helpless baby can get attention from its caregiver is by crying, a way of letting its mother know it is hungry, wet, cold or just craving some affection, but I guess that's a sin.

Since the baby's instinct for crying is God-given as is the dog's instinct to bark, the bird's instinct to fly and the fish's instinct to swim etc etc, it follows that God is the sinner according to the logic of onefrometc. But then if you believe Christ was born of a virgin and suffered and died nailed on a cross to redeem mankind of his collective stupidity and sin and then was resurrected in the flesh, well then the kind of illogic and insanity postulated by onefrom... becomes inevitable. One brand of illogic breeds further illogic in its train. It is all consistent with the absurdity and irrationality at the very core of Christianity.
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exothen
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2004, 06:17:20 »

mustang,

Babies do cry by instinct when they are hungry,wet, etc., but they also do begin to cry at a certain age when things don't go their way. Ever been around kids? Have you seen toddlers? You can tell them not to do something, and they'll look you right in the eye while they do the very thing you told them not to do.

Rebellion, selfishness, and an inclination to sin are inherent in all of us. How many people do you know who never had to teach their kids to share, to not hit, to not throw tantrums when they don't get there way? I already know that you don't know any, and you never will.

Christianity intellectually bankrupt? Hardly. It is most consistent with the observations of human nature.

 
quote:
But then if you believe Christ was born of a virgin and suffered and died nailed on a cross to redeem mankind of his collective stupidity and sin and then was resurrected in the flesh, well then the kind of illogic and insanity postulated by onefrom... becomes inevitable. One brand of illogic breeds further illogic in its train. It is all consistent with the absurdity and irrationality at the very core of Christianity.


What is illogical about any of the above beliefs of Christianity? If you are going to make such statements, please show how these beliefs are illogical before making such strong statements about them.
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Fat_Turkey
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2004, 07:34:34 »

The Gnostic Christians had it going on, and the 4 Gospels in the current Bible came from Gnostic Gospels. You know why only 4 were chosen? Because the first Pope was a scum-sucking liar that wanted to control people, and those 4 gospels fit together in such a way that he could have a grip over people.

As for The Old Testament, most of it was lost in translation. See Zecheriah Sitchin for more on this.

So if the original Catholics and such were all corrupt punks, then what's to say about today's Christianity? The morals are good, but then again, we can get morals from every other religion.

I have no problem with believing in a God, but I don't think he'd be a fascist dictator like Christianity makes him out to be.

~FT
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2004, 07:34:34 »



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Fat_Turkey
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2004, 07:39:57 »

Oh, just thought of this.

People who use the fact that they follow a religion as an excuse to know all about it more than people who don't follow it are silly. I don't follow Christianity, but I've done some homework to realise that saying that Christianity is the One Faith that has dominion over all other religions just goes to show that you've been blinded and are no longer open-minded.

As far as I see it, Christians ask you to be open-minded about Christ, then you accept that yes, he could've been our saviour. Then you say yes, he was our saviour. CLICK! Open-mindedness disappears.

Lost my train of thought...
~FT
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exothen
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2004, 07:45:44 »

quote:
The Gnostic Christians had it going on, and the 4 Gospels in the current Bible came from Gnostic Gospels.


Although I have dealt with this in another thread:

First, the term "Gnostic Christian" is an oxymoron; Gnosticism is a Christian heresy. Second, the Gnostic gospels are shown to be dated much later than the four gospels and are dependent on them.

What exactly do you mean by "the Gnostic Christians had it going on?"

 
quote:
Because the first Pope was a scum-sucking liar that wanted to control people, and those 4 gospels fit together in such a way that he could have a grip over people.


You really need to read some Christian history, both about the development of the Church and the development of canon. I would also be wary of wherever you're getting this misinformation.

 
quote:
So if the original Catholics and such were all corrupt punks, then what's to say about today's Christianity?


First provide evidence that they "were all corrupt punks," before making such statements.

 
quote:
I have no problem with believing in a God, but I don't think he'd be a fascist dictator like Christianity makes him out to be.



If that is how you think Christianity makes him out to be, then you don't know much about Christianity.
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James S
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2004, 10:10:31 »

I find it interesting that since I left the church and left the christian "religion", I've learned more about the nature and love of Christ than I ever did while I was in church.

So, despite my beliefs being basically celtic pagan, I very much believe in Jesus and the message that he had for us. So, would that make me a Christian as well as a pagan? [Wink]

While I was involved with christian churches, what I learned about far more than the love of christ, was the hypocracy of man.

This is where I see a definite destinction between the teachings of Jesus, and the dogmas of man.

James.
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exothen
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2004, 01:35:52 »

To believe in the message that Christ had for us necessarily means a renuciation of all previous beliefs. It means a total self-sacrifice to Christ no matter what the cost.

As for hypocrisy, this can be seen anywhere, particularly one's own life. I don't know of anyone who lives exactly according to what they believe.

 
quote:
This is where I see a definite destinction between the teachings of Jesus, and the dogmas of man.


Assuming, of course, that you understand the teachings of Christ and are able to differentiate between them and what you claim to be dogma.
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James S
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2004, 02:17:15 »

"To believe in the message that Christ had for us necessarily means a renuciation of all previous beliefs. It means a total self-sacrifice to Christ no matter what the cost"

Ah, now that's what the church said! I don't recall reading anywhere in the bible where Jesus actually said this himself. I'm sure a good theologin could tell me exactly why his words should be interpreted this way though.

I find the teachings of christ rather easy to understand if you don't read too much theological legalism into them.

As to how to tell the difference between following christs teachings and following church dogma - look at the lives of the people who believe in each. The fruits of their belief will be evident, and will speak louder than any words.

Regards,
James.
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lifebreath
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« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2004, 01:58:48 »

This is the message of Christ:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is immanent." Turn away from sin - selfishness, anger, greed, etc ... Turn toward God. Crucify yourself, with Christ, that you may find true and eternal life, free from the shell of existence, living in the Inner Sanctum, filled with the Spirit of God. In this way, in denying the demands of the "false" self, the "worldly" or "outer" man, the "flesh", and aligning your will and being with God, true freedom is found. Freedom from the shifting elemental forces, not being ruled by them, but rather becoming the master of them, not for selfish, magical gain, but to bring heaven to earth and earth to heaven. To become, with and in Christ, a "pontiff" or bridge - a priest, in the order of Melchizedek - in order to unite heaven and earth. "What you bind on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose in earth is loosed in heaven."

Be born of Spirit - "flesh begets flesh, Spirit begets Spirit." Open withing yourself the womb of your soul, in union with Mary, the mother of Jesus, in order to give birth to Christ within yourself, and find great joy (and great sorrow, because you will percieve the pain of the world).

I agree that the "Jesus Story" is a myth, but not in the same way as some. The mythos became manifest in flesh and blood in the Person of Christ, to reveal the mystery of our existence, our insoluable bond with God, our sin of turning away, and our way back to God. "The Logos of God made flesh." A visible sign manifesting the invisable realities - THE Sacrament, revealing the sacramentality of all that is manifested as Creation.

Enter into this reality ... but pride, vanity, ego, selfishness, greed, lust - all the swirling mess of the LIE upon which we build our identities - will not enter into that Holy Realm. That is the veil that was rent in the Temple when Jesus was crucified. That is the veil that keeps our conciousness outside of the Holy of Holies within our own being, and through which Christ guides us, by virtue of his taking that heap of garbage upon Himself and making a Way through. "I am the Way..."

I have found this to be true.  

Oh ... and I'm a Roman Catholic. Man ... I am SO controlled and manipulated, it's amazing! [Tongue]
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onefromsomewhereelse
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2004, 23:56:34 »

"Every knee shall bow...."
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mustang
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« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2004, 11:43:59 »

exothen your response to my post is inadvertently hilarious.

You really see children as sinners for having tantrums and being demanding on one's attention? Well you are a Christian, so such non-thinking is par for the course. You think I have no experience with children, I have quite a lot actually. I worked with little children, I studied child development as a psychology undergrad and completed several projects on the psychodynamics of children aged 3 to 6 years of age. Oh yeah, exothen thinks children have to be taught to be good and selfless and considerate.... really. Actually they learn to be selfish, inconsiderate, and destructive from adults. They also learn Christian mumbo-jumbo from adults like you and thus learn guilt, shame, lies and fear and bigotry, what Christians call salvation. And thus the destructiveness and brutality is passed from one generation to the next, does not only include Christians of course but they are up there with the worst.

Christ actually supposedly said "until you become like little children, you shall not know the kingdome of heaven". I prefer spending time with children, like animals, unlike most adults, and especially those who consider themselves "saved".


exothen writes in response to my first post, without any sense of irony: what is illogical about the belief in a virgin birth and the belief in Christ's subsequent physical ressurection?
Apparently exothen wants me to show how these beliefs are illogical, that I must do so before claiming they are illogical.
exothen, because of his BLIND faith, fails to see that a belief in virgin birth and resurrection are prima facie illogical. But it's no good explaining that to the true believer.

He believes what he believes, and that is that, he is completely lost and beyond help, since he has abandoned all reason and logic and free-thinking. To think for yourself is the temptation of the devil, to the true believer.
On the subject of what Christ supposedly said, here's another; "by their fruits you shall know them". Guesss that gives the churches away then, that institution built on oceans of blood, torture, genocide, plunder, theft, annihilation of any other cultures and religions that got in its way, and obscene wealth.

Just in South Africa, the churches propped up apartheid, they laid down the "theological" basis for apartheid laws. In Europe it's been even worse, in Latin America too. You cannot understand the true history of Europe, its endless wars, slavery, tyrannies, imperialism and the 20th century horrors of fascism without taking into account the churches and the mindset of Christians.  

Most (not all) Christians would consider this website to be either deulsional or the Devil's trickery - which counts in its favour.

Christianity is junk food for the mind and soul.

Christianity is also sadistic and masochistic, if you don't know what I'm talking about see Mad Mel's Passion which its zealot filmmaker would fail to realise, really does reveal Christianity for what it is, but not in the way Gibson and the unthinkiing zombie public think. Mel's movie is a distorted lie riddled with fabrications built on a bigger lie. Christianity and deceit go hand in hand so Mel's fabrications are par for the course. Much of the criticism of the movie predictably misses the point entirely, they all assume the Passion is some grand truth, arguing over who really killed Christ, rather than seeing The Passion for the mythical tale that it is. Imagine arguing over the relationships between hobbits and men and elves in Middle Earth as if it were a historical truth, rather than a fantasy invented by Tolkien. People would think you had lost your mind, and yet people argue over the Passion and its related mythical hocus-pocus as if the religious delusion equates with historical truth. I am not necessarily disputing the crucifixion itself, though there are big problems there, but the religious mumbo-jumbo associated with it.

Christianity denies personal responsibility (somebody else "saves" me, I'm not responsible for my own life and finding my own way, it denies self-knowledge and opposes the enquiry into self-awareness and thus opposes truth in all its forms - it thus opens the way for tyranny and the censorship and brutality and injustice that goes with it. Helps to explain the history of the church.)

I could go on and on, whole books have been written on the subject. Literally hundreds and hundreds. I haven't even touched on the obvious contradictions in the Gospels, most of the Gospels and Acts is pure myth, fantasy fiction of the most puerile kind. Read them with an open mind (Christians don't bother, your minds are closed) and you'll see what I mean, the contradictions on the ressurection alone are staggering, and everything else relating to the life and death of Christ, never mind the character of Judas Iscariot and his supposed fate - BTW the "betrayal" of Judas not even mentioned by Paul.

Christianity is a FAT BIG LIE.

"If we believe in absurdities we commit atrocities" - Voltaire
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exothen
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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2004, 23:52:12 »

Mustang,

 
quote:
You really see children as sinners for having tantrums and being demanding on one's attention?


That is not at all what I said. My point is the propensity in man to do evil, to be selfish and self-serving. Children aren't sinners since they don't know right from wrong, but that doesn't mean that what they do isn't wrong. Do you believe in the role of nature at all, or just nurture?

 
quote:
Apparently exothen wants me to show how these beliefs are illogical, that I must do so before claiming they are illogical.
exothen, because of his BLIND faith, fails to see that a belief in virgin birth and resurrection are prima facie illogical. But it's no good explaining that to the true believer.



Illogical - something that is not logical. Which means, since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you to show, using logic, that the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ are illogical. Surely if it is illogical you should be able to prove so. All I am asking is for you to back up your claim.

 
quote:
He believes what he believes, and that is that, he is completely lost and beyond help, since he has abandoned all reason and logic and free-thinking. To think for yourself is the temptation of the devil, to the true believer.



I see you are ignorant of Christianity and like to appeal to ridicule.

 
quote:
Guesss that gives the churches away then, that institution built on oceans of blood, torture, genocide, plunder, theft, annihilation of any other cultures and religions that got in its way, and obscene wealth.



First, there has been much done in the name of Christ that boes against what Christ taught, I will not deny that. Second, you are judging Christianity by its abuse. Third, you are completely ignoring the good done by Christianity. Fourth, you are ignoring the evil done in the name of atheism (over one hundred million killed), as well as Islam and perhaps other religions.

 
quote:
Christianity is junk food for the mind and soul.



Again, you are very ignorant of Christianity. Not that I necesarily fault you, the Church does deserve some criticism. However, you are basing this on the Church as you see it, in the West, and not how it is in the East, where it started.

 
quote:
Christianity is also sadistic and masochistic


Straw man. Christianity takes no such pleasure in giving or receiving punishment.

 
quote:
Much of the criticism of the movie predictably misses the point entirely, they all assume the Passion is some grand truth, arguing over who really killed Christ, rather than seeing The Passion for the mythical tale that it is.


Again, the burden of proof is on you to prove that the crucifixion is just a "mythical tale," whether you mean the crucifixion itself, or all the "mumbo-jumbo associated with it."

 
quote:
Imagine arguing over the relationships between hobbits and men and elves in Middle Earth as if it were a historical truth, rather than a fantasy invented by Tolkien.


Another appeal to ridicule.

 
quote:
Christianity denies personal responsibility (somebody else "saves" me, I'm not responsible for my own life and finding my own way, it denies self-knowledge and opposes the enquiry into self-awareness and thus opposes truth in all its forms - it thus opens the way for tyranny and the censorship and brutality and injustice that goes with it. Helps to explain the history of the church.)



Straw man. Christianity in no way whatsoever denies personal responsibility, but rather shows us how resposible we are for our own actions - "a man reaps what he sows" - and that we need to change. Christianity does, however, show one just how utterly in need they are of a savior outside of themselves precisely because we like to do things our own way and consistently do things wrong.

 
quote:
I haven't even touched on the obvious contradictions in the Gospels, most of the Gospels and Acts is pure myth, fantasy fiction of the most puerile kind.


Again, for the third time, the BoP is on you. Please, touch away.

 
quote:
Read them with an open mind (Christians don't bother, your minds are closed)


Another appeal to ridicule.

 
quote:
Christianity is a FAT BIG LIE.



Why don't you put up or...
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kakkarot
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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2004, 04:00:03 »

arguing against certain ideas which are the basis of christianity (ie, that jesus died and ressurected, that he performed miracles, that he lived) by merely saying it's illogical or impossible is really illogical in itself.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" if that one statement is true, then the rest of the bible is a breeze. and there's no way to really prove that statement wrong, so by a logical fallacy of supposed circular logic, it's illogical to say "this didn't happen because it doesn't make sense" with regards to christianity.

there's a reason why christianity is mostly based upon *belief*, because by definition beliefs are things which are neither proven correct nor incorrect. and since you can prove neither that God did or did not create everything, it remains belief.

~kakkarot
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mustang
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« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2004, 09:27:34 »

exothen, in your response you evade everything I say, predictably so. You have no answers to my objections, just Christian rhetoric and dogma that you repeat like some mantra. Well it's your life.

exothen writes re Christ's supposed virgin birth and resurrection
quote:
Illogical - something that is not logical. Which means, since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you to show, using logic, that the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ are illogical. Surely if it is illogical you should be able to prove so. All I am asking is for you to back up your claim.




Actually the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Muslims claim Mohammed split the moon, the burden of proof is with them, non-Muslims have the right to be sceptical of such claims. What evidence do they have, none. They also say they don't need any evidence, it is in the Koran or Hadith, that is all they need as proof ie mere blind faith is good enough, even in something that is prima facie
illogical.

exothen and others like minded will see the patent absurdity of this and the circular logic involved here:
namely it must be true because it is in the so-called holy book the Koran and/or Hadith,
how do you know the Koran/Hadith is holy and true?
because the holy book is the holy book, the Koran says so, Mohammed who gave us the Koran is the holy prophet,
how do you know Mohammed is the holy prophet?
because the Koran is the holy book given us by the holy prophet and the Koran says Mohammed is the holy prophet,
we have Mohammed's word for it and round and round we go.

The circular logic is obvious and we can all see it. But exothen and his ilk have one set of rules for other religions and abandon these logical rules when it comes to their own religion of Christianity.

Numerous pagan religions believe in the concept of the virgin birth of the favoured divine son, all this predates Chrisitanity and is a concept found in numerous religious traditions in the Meditteranean and North Africa and Asia. The ancient Greeks believed Zeus visited several young women in various forms, such as a Bull, a swan, a shower even, in order to possess them sexually and bear them children, brave and noble favoured by Zeus in their life on earth, even though unusual suffering and tribulations were placed in their way -sound familiar? Now obviously none of this is literally true and yet when it comes to the similar tale of the virgin birth of Christ, the Immaculate Conception, the visit of Gabriel etc you have no problem believing it. So why one set of rules for other religions and another set of rules for Christianity? Becuase it happens to be the religion you were indoctrinated in, rather than another? What if you were born in a Hindu or Muslim country? You would believe in Hindu or Muslim dogma, because you believe in whatever you are told.

Blind faith is all you have by your own admission in a dogma that is derived from pagan sources, including the dogma of the sacrifice of the divine son for the sake of the tribe and the resurrection, all of which occur throughout pagan religions that predate Christianity (there are elements of it in ancient Judaism - the sacrifice of the chosen son that is, the story of Abrahams's near sacrifice of Isaac is probably a remnant of this motif in Judaism which is in turn derived from very ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Ionian and other sources), that are in fact the basis of Christian dogma and yet you reject pagan beliefs as superstition but staunchly hold faith in the Christian dogma derived from these selfsame pagan beliefs! Talk about irony.

On the subject of virgin birth, you do know Christ had brothers, most famously James? So was Mary still a virgin when she had Christ's brothers? If so then were they also divine sons created by ImConception? But they can't be because Christ is the only son created by Divine Conception. So obviously 'ol Joseph must have had his way with his virgin bride after Christ's birth, so she is no longer a virgin then, get it. Of course you may argue that it doesn't matter because she was a virgin when Christ was born (even though to those of us who value something called science we know she wasn't, she had a kid see?), but note how no mention of this is made of in church and Sunday school, esp Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, but also Protestant Church.

Here's something else central to Christianity that is completely illogical, irrational and blatantly hypocritical - the Passion itself. Every critic of mad Mel's movie misses the point here as they only can, because hardly anybody can think for himself. What does it matter who killed Christ, the Romans or some of the rabbis or both (we'll ignore the mythical fairy-tale elements of the Passion, a recurring religious motif throughout the Meditteranean).

The Passion and the associated vilification and demonisation of those including Judas and Caiphus for killing Christ is obviously nonsensical, illogical and hypocritical; and so the whole story collapses on its house-of-cards absurdity and irrationality at its foundations and with it the whole of Christian dogma comes falling down. What am I talking about?

Simple. According  to Christian dogma, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is necessary for the salvation and redemption of humanity or at least the salvation of the believers. So his killing is completely necessary, without it no Passion, no Christianity at all since that is what his life and fate are, this is what his life is about, why he came to earth - the crucifixion. Without it there can be no salvation for humanity, no churches, no Christianity, gettit?

So then his betrayal by Judas leading to his subsequent arrest and his sacrifice on the cross is absolutely necessary as is the mob's call for his death, which means that without Judas etc The Passion cannot be set in motion, it cannot take place. If it doesn't take place there is no Christianity. So Judas, Caiphus, even Pilate and the mob are necessary vital figures, for without them there can be no sacrifice of the divine son. And so they are the true martyrs, for without their betrayal and lust for Christ's blood - no Passion, gettit? They get the whole Passion drama started, they set everything in motion, and only by their betrayal and bloodlust can the Passion come to be and so Christianity in its train.

And so how can Christians condemn and vilify the supposed Christ-killers when they should be praising them, they are the true heroes and even martyrs, for without them the Christian Passion drama cannot be and neither can the Christian dogma on which it is based, no churches neither. Without the Christ-killers there is no redemption and salvation for humanity because no sacrifice on the cross by Christ without them playing their vital roles.

And so the obvious hypocrisy, illogic and incredible stupidity of the Passion drama and its interpretation is revealed, yet note that in the broohaha surrounding Mel's fantasy epic, all the even harshest critics have missed this central point. To be fair at least some of them will no doubt know about the point I have made, but they cannot come out and say it on TV or print because it is too subversive and offensive to the true believers.

And exothen I do not dispute the damage done by atheism/communism or the carnage under Islam, but that is an evasion, how does this undo the blood and carnage under Christianity? If I were to say that under fascism, millions died during WW2, how does this negate the fact that millions also died under the cruel tyranny of Stalin? This thread is about Christianity after all, not communism or Islam. But evasion is the only tactic you have, along with denial, empty inane rhetoric and the circular logic of blind faith. Hey it's your life, believe what you want. I'm not gonna change your mind, unfortunately - hopefully others here who are open-minded can appreciate my post, that's who it is for.

To quote Christ; "don't cast pearls before swine". Wise advice which I don't always heed.

Btw exothen and other believers, I love riling you people, it is no less than you deserve. I take your insults as compliments because of who they are coming from.
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« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2004, 23:51:08 »

kakkarot,

 
quote:
there's a reason why christianity is mostly based upon *belief*, because by definition beliefs are things which are neither proven correct nor incorrect. and since you can prove neither that God did or did not create everything, it remains belief.



Agreed (it is also interesting that science can't prove anything either but yet much of it remains "fact"). The point I want to make with this is that although Christianity can't prove anything in terms of empirical evidence, there is enough that one can reasonably conclude that what is stated to have happened, did in fact happen.

mustang,

 
quote:
in your response you evade everything I say, predictably so.


It was not my intention to evade anything. Maybe you just didn't say anything. [Tongue]

 
quote:
Actually the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine.


You claimed that I have "BLIND faith," that my beliefs based on Scripture are "illogical." Certainly you must have some proof as to why you can claim such. At most, if you wanted to be rational about it, you would remain agnostic about such issues, but since you deny belief in biblical miracles, the BoP is just as much on you.

 
quote:
The circular logic is obvious and we can all see it. But exothen and his ilk have one set of rules for other religions and abandon these logical rules when it comes to their own religion of Christianity.


Now you have gone and put words in my mouth that I didn't say. If you want to discuss the issues, then at least address what I said, not what I didn't say. On what basis do you call me ilk? Reverting to ad hominem now?

 
quote:
Numerous pagan religions believe in the concept of the....


So just because there are parallels between Christianity and early pagan and mystery religions, Christianity is derived from them? You are getting more irrational as we proceed. If you want to go this route, please use primary source material to show definite links between Christianity and these pagan religions.

What do you know of general revelation?

 
quote:
Now obviously none of this is literally true and yet when it comes to the similar tale of the virgin birth of Christ, the Immaculate Conception, the visit of Gabriel etc you have no problem believing it. So why one set of rules for other religions and another set of rules for Christianity?


Who says there are a different set of rules? This is the faulty conclusion you have come to by rejecting Christian belief on apparently no basis at all. Historically speaking, there is much evidence in the way of Christianity that makes it reasonable to conclude that what Christians believe is true, whereas that evidence is in serious lack for mythology and other religions.

 
quote:
the story of Abrahams's near sacrifice of Isaac is probably a remnant of this motif in Judaism which is in turn derived from very ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Ionian and other sources), that are in fact the basis of Christian dogma


Again, use primary source material and prove these links to me. Prove to me that Judaism derives this belief from other ancient sources and that Christianity derives this belief from any other source. BoP is again on you for making the claim.

 
quote:
On the subject of virgin birth, you do know Christ had brothers, most famously James? So was Mary still a virgin when she had Christ's brothers? If so then were they also divine sons created by ImConception?


Again, you are debating something that I didn't state and are making "hasty generalizations" about what I and other Christians believe. Of course Mary had other sons after Christ and so was no longer a virgin. Why not just debate the points I make?

 
quote:
Of course you may argue that it doesn't matter because she was a virgin when Christ was born (even though to those of us who value something called science we know she wasn't, she had a kid see?),


This statement is actually a little surprising coming from someone who is posting in a forum on spirituality. Can science prove any of your OBEs or other phenomena? Can you clear up this apparent contradiction? Maybe you don't believe in anything else in these forums and you just antagonize everybody.

I'll end here just put a break in it all.
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"When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything." G.K. Chesterton
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2004, 00:04:49 »

mustang,

There wasn't as much left to reply to as I thought.

 
quote:
And so the obvious hypocrisy, illogic and incredible stupidity of the Passion drama and its interpretation is revealed,


Only in your head. What Bible have you been reading? Have you ever read a Bible, particularly the gospel accounts? The Bible is clear that Jesus died according to God's plan - nothing happened in the Passion that wasn't supposed to happen, and it only happened when it was supposed to happen. God simply used people who were sinful to accomplish his will.

Perhaps you missed some of the quote's of Mel where he stated that all are responsible for putting Christ on the Cross, including himself. God needed someone to want Christ to be crucified and needed someone to crucify him. Would you expect Christ to crucify himself?

BTW, as a side note, did you (or anyone else) read of a guy a couple of months ago who tried to commit suicide by crucifying himself? Apparently he nailed in gus feet (I think) and then nailed in one hand before he realized the flaw in his plan. LOL! He had to have the wood cut around the nails and then taken to hospital to get the nails removed.

 
quote:
And exothen I do not dispute the damage done by atheism/communism or the carnage under Islam, but that is an evasion, how does this undo the blood and carnage under Christianity?


I am in no way trying to justify what was done in the name of Christianity. I stated that it is an abuse of Christianity; so much so that it goes against everything Christian. However, this argument is used so much, but it is never put into perspective, nor is it brought into balance with the evil done by atheism and other religions.

 
quote:
But evasion is the only tactic you have, along with denial, empty inane rhetoric and the circular logic of blind faith.


*shrug* I never intentionally evaded anything and if I did, it wasn't worth replying to. As for who has been the most rational, I'll let the others decide.
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2003, 18:09:07 »

All who are here realize the folly of the world as they attempt to find consel in outword shows of worship at churches and temples. The true light of the darkness is to be found inside. This is the Gnosis. The dark seed of our true masters who are to return in power and glory to reward those that have fought against the atrocities of religious thought such as the followers of christ.  They have lied to you in order to imprison your minds in what they call the truth. Reject the notions of the organized system and adhere to the inner spark of our true natures which are without fault and beyond sin.

Use the magick of yourselves to find the keys of the dark.

Never bend knee to any god.
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