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Author Topic: The pictures of Muhammd  (Read 11648 times)
Xernous
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2006, 19:27:50 »

When I was reading about the cartoons, why did all those other cartoons and parodies of Christianity come to mind? The main one that came to me was the "Buddy Christ" in the movie Dogma. I understand why followers of Islam can be upset about something like this, but they're seriously taking it the wrong way by killing people over something they didn't agree with. I don't see Christians killing people over the release of Dogma, so why can't the Muslims just let it go? It would be better for the world if we all just let our anger go and vent it in a more productive fashion.
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kamals
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2006, 14:49:39 »

There are ways of making our stances and positions known that respect the other as other without abbrasive combativeness for its own sake. When I was younger I was a punk, tagged buildings, called myself an anarchist, and thought being confrontational and sticking my middle finger at society was an act of currage.

Now I realize it was deeply purile, silly, and ego tripping. The spiritual quest should - as I see it should be about minimizing the ego's hold.

I do not expect people raised in environments that are areligious, or lukewarmly religious in a traditional sense to understand the deep impact that "blasphemy" has on a traditional mind, be it Hindu or Muslims, or Christian. The idea of ridiculing the sacrosanct strikes a deep chord in any mind raised in a traditional religious and spiritual consciousness. This may or may not be good or bad or value neutral but UNDERSTANDING this,

Understanding that eating a hamburger in front of a pious Hindu is DEEPLY offensive, and hitting a cow with your car in India can cause a riot, and not projecting out of RESPECT your post-modern sensibilities onto the situation - this is ettiquite.

Understanding that various freedoms and rights are held almost sacrosanct in post-modern America or France, and not being an arse and insulting these deeply held beliefs regarding the rights and brotherhood of humanity, and freedom of expression - this is ettiquite.

Not tinkling on a crucifix in a traditional Christian village in Egypt or Ethiopia - this is respect and ettiquitte.

You know, I am constantly amazed by the degree of ignorance both Muslims and non Muslims, East and West, display of each other. For example the statement that for those who take Islam's scriptures seriously there is no other recourse other than war. A statement made based on a superficial examination of said scriptures lacking access to any traditional interpritation.

Needless to say given that there are 1 billion plus Muslims (a thought that sadly causes many on this forum, I'd imagine, a shudder or two) if this were true one would see considerbly more violence in the world, dontcha think. 1 billion. That's a lot of people.

It is easy to take scattered statements and texts out of context and paint two equally inaccurate views.

One: "true Islam is a peaceful pacifistic religion, cuddly bunny rabbits really."

Totally inaccurate, Islam has a vein of militancy just as every religion, Buddhism included, that is integrial to its spiritual worldview and this is a good thing - there are things in life that only a jackass would fail to maintain a militant attitude towards. The question is ballance. And towards what is that vein of militancy expressed.

Two: "true Islam is an Imperialist combative and militant religion dedicated to the subjugation and elemination of so-called "infidels"".

Also totally inacurate and a distortion. Islam is the ONLY pre-modern religion that explicitly calls for pluralism and tolerance of other beliefs in its scriptures - and if any are interested I will bore you by quoting them. Islam exhorts its believers to not aggress in the Quran, and to forgive their enemies.

The point is a matter of distortion and inaccuracy by showing one side and one side only. Islam is neither a "warrior spirituality" nor is it an exercise in utter pacifism. Dualities resolve themselves in a Unity - this is what we Muslims call "tauhid". Yin/Yang, or as the sufis say in Arabic "Jamaliyat wa Jalaliyat". Male/Female, openness/closedness. A time for war, a time for peace. Balance.

Any "spiritual teaching" lacking such a balance is partial and a distortion. We live in the realm of multiplicity.

On the other hand the extreme ignorance of the west displayed by the Eastern Muslims rioting, and countless other examples. The vast ignorance in Islamdom of Western Christians and non Christians is matched by the vast ignorance of Westerners towards, well, anyone in the East or South, Animists, Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims alike.

The masses worldwide are by and large ignorant by degrees to what goes on outside their backyard. So long as we admit our ignorance this is fine, we are all ignorant of many things. It is when we start to make universalised statements and adopt bigotry that this ignorance becomes troublesome.

And of course those forces manipulating both sides enjoy a chuckle.
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2006, 14:49:39 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Xernous
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2006, 15:35:14 »

I am sure we can all come to the consensus that most violent Muslims are not true followers of Islam, however the media may occasionally portray otherwise. Probably one of the reasons why I decided to stop watching TV. I guess many major religions have their fair share of misguided fundamentalists. But, instead of this rampant rioting, maybe it would be a better idea for those offended by the cartoons to simply call for the writers and publishers to simply apologize. Of course, maybe it would have been better if they didn't publish the cartoons in the first place, but since that Pandora's Box has been opened, I guess we need to make the best of it.
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kamals
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2006, 16:14:40 »

“o, why can't I live a life for me?
why should I take the abuse that's served?
why can't they see they're just like me
it's the same, it's the same in the whole wide world” – Ministry, from the song “(Everyday Is) Halloween”

"Sufism is experience of life through a method of dealing with life and human relations. This method is based on an understanding of man, which places at one's disposal the means to organize one's relationships and one's learning systems. So instead of saying that Sufism is a body of thought in which you believe certain things and don't believe other things, we say that the Sufi experience has to be provoked in a person. Once provoked, it becomes his own property, rather as a person masters an art." -Seyed Idries Shah, interviewed in Psychology Today, 1975.


As for the movie Dogma, I can assure you if that movie were played in certain Christian populations around the world, the natives would get very antsy and violent. Passions flare hotter in some culture than others, ours is a very lukewarm one. There are places a man would slit your belly open for asking how his mother was doing “what business is it of yours, what are you trying to imply?”. Really. Some cultures are more emotive than ours and this has positive and negative repercussions.

It is good that you stopped watching TV smiley It conditions us strongly. Try experimenting with meditation and bouts of TV watching alternated with a TV fast.

Interesting results.

Without fail, some of (not all : - ) the most creative and interesting people I know do not watch TV, although one pretty young thing I know seems to have a “Sex and the City” and “6 Feet Under” addiction that she feeds by renting back DVD’s of the series and watching on her computer… Anyway.

Again, let us consider media manipulation. Has it occurred to anyone that such rampant rioting is anything but natural? Why is it occurring, in Bangladesh, for limited publications in Denmark? The reality is when they were first published the Danish Muslim community tried to deal with it quietly, they contacted the publication and expressed their discontent in an orderly and civilized manner. The paper apologized. The issue died.

THEN someone, who is not known, systematically went around Muslim communities overseas MONTHS after the cartoons were published, and started reprinting them and showing them to people in the middle east and so on, then certain anonymous people started organizing demonstrations.

Then Western Newspapers and Media started REPRINTING them for wider distribution in other countries and the Muslim populations (an action totally forbidden in Islamic law, blasphemy is supposed to be ignored, not circulated or even commented on. Anyone who brought this topic up after the Danish Muslim community’s leaders initially approached the newspaper in question performed actions totally forbidden in Islam) in those countries started getting offended and their passions were stroked by orators and letters for action, and calls to protest, and a feedback loop started.

In some parts of the Third World people tend to riot over the smallest things. Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever. Unsophisticated traditional populations and masses are easily manipulated by a glib tongue and impassioned speaker. Whoever started this campaign knew well what they were doing. It was, and is, a media circus and has succeeded in selling many newspapers.

You state that we can all come to the consensus that most violent Muslims are not true followers of Islam, ah, but I wouldn't necessarily come to that conclusion per se. For, you see, THEY see themselves as true followers of their religion, just as a non-violent Sufi sitting in meditation somewhere in the Himalayas sees himself as a true follower of his religion.

In reality there is a claim to truth that both has within a limited sphere. It's a matter of interpretations, right or wrong, and context.

You see. For the violent Jihadi, he or she sees the self as fighting a JUST war against an evil enemy. Many here see Osama as evil. A murderer and fanatic. Some have a more nuanced view but still it would be hard for many to see him as other than evil.

But THEREIN lies the rub. For it is that some people, like Osama, see themselves as fighting a just war against an evil and almost inhuman enemy. That unjust and inhuman enemy, in their eyes, is none other than you.

Or, in a more nuanced view, the unjust and evil enemy some see is the West in general, the US in particular, and civilians such as you… and I … are in their eyes legitimate collateral damage. Stray cattle caught in the crossfire. Or, some may see us, at best, as sad and unfortunate but necessary deaths in fighting a greater evil. Or a nuanced mix of these views. This is what some people believe.

Why should it be otherwise? Our soldiers in Iraq operate under similar terms; US armed forces have certainly in this generation knowingly targeted civilian targets in order to inflict damage against what our soldiers saw as legitimate tactical targets. The civilians caught up in the middle are "collateral damage".

Consider this vision: In 1982 6-year-old Fatima playing in the mud outside her hamlet in a small village in South Lebanon was blown into one hundred small pieces by US marines who were trying to achieve certain tactical aims (covertly and probably illegally). Her brother who witnessed his innocent 6-year-old sister dismembered remembers this. Sharply, when he’s awake, when he sleeps.

He doesn’t care about international politics. He cares that foreigners of a different religion and culture are supporting his enemies and blowing up his little sisters.

So to him those perpetuating this act are indeed evil. Full stop. How can you blame him for thinking people who incinerate little girls are anything other than evil? So when he drives a car bomb into a Marine barracks, or blows himself up somewhere, or when he snipes at an unsuspecting High School valedictorian and quarterback from Indiana, a kid from Ft. Wayne who would rather be back home listening to Van Halen or Led Zeppelin and making out with his sweetheart, and who is on duty because he sincerely believes that he is only trying to do his patriotic duty in protecting America from evil (ah, the evil word again) violent Muslim extremists...

Now you know why. To some people YOU are either voting for their enemies - the men killing their little sisters and mothers and brothers, or you are supporting their enemies – which makes you their enemy too, or you pay taxes to support an evil system and empire – in THEIR eyes – and thus are part of the same machine that blew up their sisters.

Horrible as it may sound, it makes sense. It is quite logical. Just as many American non-Muslims may see all Muslims are supporting their enemies who killed so many on Sept. 11th 2001. Same sort of logic.

Today, the people who follow Osama, or who *think* that they are following Osama, see themselves as waging a legitimate war using the only dirty means available to them against a satanic and evil foe. There are others more cynical and informed who use, of course, these feelings to further their aims. But they are as cynical as those who wish to convince us that the war against Iraq is a war against terrorism.

You see, Westerners and Easterners are just as easily manipulated. You just need different language patterns, that’s all.

Kinda sucks. Does it not?

"Militant Islam" isn't doing it's best to discredit its religion, it sees itself as trying to fulfill it.

NOT BEING a "Militant Fundamentalist" I see myself as trying to fulfill my religion. When I read Rumi, and meditate, and make dhikr, and try to practice my spiritual exercises the "Fundamentalist" sees me as a dangerous neo-Gnostic heretic, some sort of wacky goofy Sufi. I see myself as trying, in my humble way, to follow the true inner teachings of not only Islam but every authentic stream of traditional spiritual truth unveiled to humanity.

I see the fundamentalist as blind and reactive. But evil? No. I see many people as blind and reactive, myself including...

But I'm trying to break the chains of reactive conditioning. And many on this forum are as well, and this is a positive thing.
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ubiquitous
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2006, 22:51:16 »

Kamal so the question begs with authenticity
are you going to post a picture?Huh?
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2006, 22:51:16 »



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Beth
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2006, 23:37:11 »

Great post kamals!!

I don't watch TV either; haven't for quite a few years now.  I do own a TV, but I so rarely ever watch it that I totally forget that I have one!  I do, however, enjoy the occasional movie, and since I don't particularly care for 'going to the movies' that much, I can always watch them on my laptop if there is one that catches my interest!  

Thanks for fleshing out the so easily misunderstood conundrum of 'we' and 'they' as 'good' and 'evil'.  We definately live in a relative universe (or perceive it as such anyway!) where everything is always relative to something else!

~Beth

p.s. 'Pretty is as pretty does'... wink

[Part of this post was moved to "Contradictions in Religion"]
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Xernous
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2006, 05:19:09 »

My main point is that some people take things too seriously, sometimes with catastrophic results. If the media would have let it go, this whole mess probably wouldn't have happened. But I guess controversy drives ratings and keeps the advertisers happy....

Kamals, I appreciate you helping put things in perspective on this issue for me. You seem to have a much better understanding on this.
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Beth
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2006, 13:01:27 »

Quote from: Xernous
My main point is that some people take things too seriously, sometimes with catastrophic results. If the media would have let it go, this whole mess probably wouldn't have happened. But I guess controversy drives ratings and keeps the advertisers happy....


Xernous,

Because we live in a 'relative universe' where everything is relative to something else, kamals point drives this fact home showing how we also live in a 'reactive universe' where 'point A' and 'point B' are meeting in a dangerous clash of wills.  

The media today is the forum through which these 'meetings' are made public.  

While I am not a fan of the media today, we cannot lay blame for the debacle in lap of the media.  While the media is certainly able to 'feed certain fires', the fires would burn one way or another--but we would probably never hear anything about it.  And that would not make us any happier either; it was only a few centuries ago that the 'world press' (such as it was) was constantly censored by the ruling parties of each country.  That is why our constitution includes 'freedom of the press'.  We get a lot of benefit from this freedom--knowledge being the primary one--but like life in general, we have to take the good with the bad, so we might not always like what we hear/read.

Even though the pictures in this case originated in a newspaper, they could have just as easily been found in a privately published book, or posted on a university campus, or found on a coffee shop bulletin board. The fight was waiting to happen, and this is the way that it manifested itself.

Also, to unaffected observers it appears that some people take things 'too seriously', and while each of the things that we read and hear about are no doubt affecting us globally, each one of them start out as very personal--in one way or another.

~Beth
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gdo
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2006, 02:03:43 »

There are some principles of truth in all religions.  The person delivering the message of the truth is not the message.  The 'image' of any avatar is not 'holy' of itself.  

Any followers who degrade the reality of the human condition are really blasheming their own principles.  

If Allah or God want to punish some one for an 'image' let Allah or God do it.    Anything else is foolishness and an example of 'earthly' concerns not spiritual concerns.
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2006, 13:36:42 »

as far as i know we should all respect each others religion kn matter what our own beleifs were, hindu muslim or even christians all should respect easch other and not tr y to harm each others religion by provoking them in any way.


ally Ekbal Bsc Marketing MBA operations management
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Layla
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2006, 17:09:13 »

Quote from: dingo
Quote from: Mustardseed
I guess I was not so much asking about the pictures as the fact that the Mideast is spiraling into a crisis about it and threatening Fatwa as well a boycotting all danish goods. They are expecting the prime minister to put the cartoonist as well as the newspaper editor in jail

WTF how can they expect that? It's not like they run Denmark. If I were a muslim I'm pretty sure I'd respect the fact that the cartoonist has freedom of expression. I would not be insulted. Of course, I haven't seen the cartoon though.
What about cartoons about Jesus, or God, or atheists? I'm sure there must be cartoons about them. Why does no one kick up a fuss about that?


Well, It is insulting. Because, of all the racism against Muslims. It would be. Not only that, but Prophet Mohammed was the last Prophet that god sent. And he spread Islam with out having any Powers like Prophet Moses, or Jesus or Any other prophet for that matter and he had a normal life like we do. Because the Prophet's used to live for 1000's of years. But God, Noticed that giving them Powers/Long lives made people worship them in exchange of god. AND every single Prophet of God is to be respected.

Because GOD can in a snap of a finger make everyone worship him, but God gave people free will and a mind to think for themselves.

When someone disgraces any Prophet or THE GOD in any manner. It is very insulting.

Cartoons about Jesus, God and Etc. Well STAND UP FOR THEM! Don't sit around and laugh or whatnot, STANDUP FOR THEM.
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Leyla
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2006, 02:50:59 »

"Standing up" is one thing; "killing" is another. There is big a differance between writing a hot letter to the editor defending your faith, and putting a price on someone head.

Editorial cartoons usually have some grain of truth to them. Perhaps first one should question "Do they have a point?" If the rest of the world thinks there is a problem, then perhaps there is one. And perhaps, that problem should be fixed.

For example, when Bush decided to go after Iraq, the rest of the world said there was a problem. Bush decided the only real problem was that the whole rest of the world wouldn't just shut up.

I am not saying you should blindly accept all criticism, but to examine them. And there problems that have been let to go too long? Do some things need to be changed? Are there things that bother you?

Certainly from the inside of your faith, you probably know exactly what these areas are and what should be done about them.

I have seen interviews with brave Islamic women pushing for change, and think they are heroic. I hope so much that they get the things they want, because they deserve them.
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James S
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2006, 12:59:04 »

"AND every single Prophet of God is to be respected. "

I Agree!!

Thing is, the way I see it, there was no LAST prophet of God. We can all be prophets of God if we'd just take a few moments to stop looking at ancient religious texts as if they were the very last words God said to anyone, look for the spiritual wisdom they all contain within them, and all started listening to God ourselves instead of just listening to what someone else says that God said.

Blessings,
James.
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moemakki
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« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2006, 07:59:41 »

However, for the person who follows Islam scripturally there is no other place to go but to war. - We should not be surprised to see violence breaking out in the streets...

This is a common misconception given the recent image the west has given Islam.  I for one follow Islam by the book and I can quote many verses that denounce violence unless you are attacked first or oppressed/living under occupation.

Peace
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2006, 06:47:08 »

This is a common misconception given the recent image the west has given Islam.  I for one follow Islam by the book and I can quote many verses that denounce violence unless you are attacked first or oppressed/living under occupation.

Peace

Thats the point, this is the line Osama uses, that you are oppressed, i.e. living under western oppression, and as a matter of fact you are. The west has got the arab world by the b...., and is draining it of its riches (oil). Once there is no more oil in the east, you can have your countries and start killing yourselves again (Shia vs Sunni).
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2006, 20:22:52 »

And in a scary postscript to your post, I just saw on tv the Senator Katherine Harris stating in the media (and I suppose proposing the idea for judicial challenge) that the separation between Church and State is unconstitutional.
Scared yet?
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James S
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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2006, 00:15:19 »

It logical that it would be unconstitutional.

The constitution and the laws are all based on moral and ethical codes that are all ultimately derived from the church's doctrines.

This is why we see some fundamental differences in the laws of, say, the U.S. and the laws of middle eastern countries. One's laws is based on Christian ethics and principals, the other is based on Muslim ethics and principals. Though they do both agree on many things, there are some really obvious differences, which shows through in the morals and ethics of the people in those countries.

Blessings,
James.
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