Minutes from Death Pastor Tom Severson's NDE

[wisp]

Interesting article Robin, thanks for sharing it.

wisp

[Gandalf]

Yup, another interesting example of the 'belief system territory' aspect of the astral, in action.

Douglas

[exothen]

A very interesting article.

quote:Yup, another interesting example of the 'belief system territory' aspect of the astral, in action.

Another example of someone's belief system interpreting someone else's experience to make their own beliefs seem legit.

[Mustardseed]

Ha. Good point Ex. This is how it works in this Forum. We in "the belief system territories", have been declared kind of "lawless". Secondary citicens and generally we are condesendingly being tolerated in our ignorance. On the other hand every 15yr old kid satanist, pocket philosofer, gamer or Ki specialist demon slayer or whatever, is wayyy ahead of us in spiritual development. [] You better get used to people like Gandalf. Dont worry about him his name and continous comments indicates that it is yet another Lord of The Rings Buff, who believes himself to be a mighty Wizzard. Another Harry Potter wannabe!!!Dont get all offended Douglas, but your comments above as many you have made before are sort of ...... silly. They only show us your belief, thats all. Besides sort of talking down to folks who accept Christianity of course.

So Ex dont worry 'bout them, they are kind of cute once you get to know them and get used to their selfrighteous lingo[]

Regards Mustardseed

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by exothen

A very interesting article.

quote:Yup, another interesting example of the 'belief system territory' aspect of the astral, in action.

Another example of someone's belief system interpreting someone else's experience to make their own beliefs seem legit.

STOP IT!!!

Xander

[wisp]

I hope nobody will be offended on my take on this extreme story.

This article is interesting because it contains so much symbolism. The name Severson (Sever, severe) might have had a meaning to the young passenger. And the trip to a graveyard? Could this have triggered something in the young man? This incident played out as a real life nightmare. The pastor "drove" the young man to the graveyard. In dreams(sometimes surfaces in waking life if brought to the conscious), the driver is seen as the one in control. Circumstances like this may fall in place just right as to produce this violence? It sounded premeditated (co-creation of victim/perpetrator scenerio). It probably didn't help by the pastor saying the young man needs to repent (either before or during the attack, the article wasn't clear on this). This would seem to me as part of the cause for the attacker to think the other man must die. Both obviously saw the other as the enemy. It sounds like the pastor learned a lot of the incident. It doesn't strike me as demonization, but a combination of factors leading to a horrific scene. A knife in symbology  means separation. The pastor had to separate to save his life. The young attacker wanted to separate the other man's head from his body. The pastor recognized his pea size heart afterward (and more reflections). People are not perfect. Violence needs to be understood, maybe someday it can be prevented, and someday end.

[Gandalf]

On the other hand every 15yr old kid satanist, pocket philosofer, gamer or Ki specialist demon slayer or whatever, is wayyy ahead of us in spiritual development.  You better get used to people like Gandalf. Dont worry about him his name and continous comments indicates that it is yet another Lord of The Rings Buff, who believes himself to be a mighty Wizzard. Another Harry Potter wannabe!!!Dont get all offended Douglas, but your comments above as many you have made before are sort of ...... silly. They only show us your belief, thats all. Besides sort of talking down to folks who accept Christianity of course.



Firstly, the old 'false comparison' trick in order to discredit me is not going to work here; I and many others here are in no way responsible for or connected to 'demon slayers' 'ki-ballers' or any other sadly deluded individuals who have been watching to much 'buffy' or japanese animes.

Secondly, I dont claim to be on any kind of 'true path' like some here, I do state that Im on A path, like everyone else. No-one can really know if they are on a 'true' path, or even if there is a 'single' path, there may be many.

Ultimatly everyone constructs their own world view based on their own experience and any 'knowedge' they have picked up.

What I would advise is for everyone to adopt something of a 'catch-basket' attitude, as suggested by Robert Bruce, which says that you should begin by throwing out everything you have every heard about 'whats out there' and begin again, born again christians should might be familiar with this concept, however at this point the similarity ends.

You should then begin constructing your own world view 'based only on personal experience' (as far as possible at least).

In the spiritual context, dont rely 100% on books, sacred texts dogmas etc but only on what you have experienced yourself.
Go out into the astral, find out what it is like.
Don't rely on authors, sure you can use them as rough guides, but find out things for yourself.

I have made use of the work of such explorers as Monroe, Bruce and Moen but I dont swear by them or think they have it all right.
The difference with these guys as they will say 'don't believe me, go out and find out for yourself', which is refreshing.

I do astral project and i have experienced 'a small portion' of what the astral is like. These guys have went a lot further than me and have have claimed to discover much of the inner workings of the astral, at least at our end. I tend to believe their descriptions of the way the astral works and it nature, as much of what they have described *I have experienced myself*, for this reason I tend to favour their findings. However, although I use them as a guide, I STILL dont accept all their findings as 'Truth', only those things I have explored for myself.

I have found similarities in some respects but not in others and ultimatly much of the astral realm is subject ot subjective intepretations.

Concerning 'belief centres', I accept this concept because it accuratly represents exactly what *I have found about the astral*, where your own beliefs and thought projections become manifested in the astral itself. For this reason I can quite safely state as fact (in my view, not yours) that anyone with strong religious views constructed around a particualr belief system will find these thoughts and beliefs represented with perfect realism once in the astral, it is unavoidable. In just the same way, I have found 'like attracks like' in the astal, therefor those who have similar beliefs will gravitate towards each other into these astral visions of 'heaven', (or 'hell') resulting in the belief centre zones.

This is why I am never suprised when I hear about NDEs which describe strong christian visions of heaven. This is also why, IMO, you get similar NDE's depicting visions of other world religions. ie in muslim countries you get 'Allah NDE's' and Hindus report obes with Hindu deities etc.

The nature of the astral explains how this process occurs rather than returning to the old circular argument that all other visions of other deities are 'wrong', and only christian ones are 'right'. Rather, it would appear that they are all 'correct' to the same degree. If you don't accept this idea then you will have to come up with an alternative reason why 'religious' NDE's differ depending on the religion of the individual; just stating that others ae 'mistaken' is just returning to the old circular argument again.
You might say, it is the 'Christian god's' way of showing himself to those of other faiths or it is those of other faiths who mistakingly interprete the christian god via their own distorted view, but this is again a return to the old never-ending argument, as exactly the same argument might be made about christian NDE's by a Muslim critic or a Hindu one.

Now, I have read that at a certain point the astral becomes more stable and is no longer subseptable to these mind projections, with Monroe, Moen and RB having described it. Other much more advanced projectors than I will ever be, have also come across these regions (some of them used to post here, remember Frank anyone?), which it is possible to reach only when you have developed a high degree of astal control. This can only come about once you learn to control emotion and random thought so that you dont allow your thoughts to escape and construct your enviroment.

Again, although I would tend to agree with the concept of the higher levels as it agrees with what I have found concerning the way the astral works, I do not accept this as fact, as I have not yet been able to experience these realms for myself. At present I am still focusing on the way the lower astral reacts to thought in the way that I have described before, which as I say, explains in my view, NDE's and 'visions' of christian heavens, muslim heavens, Hindu ones etc.

Of couse, this is my view based on personal experience, it appears true enough as far as I can reckon it. My main point is this:
Rather than reading gospels, old texts or new ones, and 'truths' that OTHER PEOPLE have told you, instead go out and find things out for yourself, based on personal experience... dont accept what I say either, I know you won't so thats fine!

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Hi Douglas
I agree with much of what you say. I really do. However I find that you are in error of your view of Christianity. You continually have this sort of ticked off attitude and seem to be looking for a cause, and a fight.

You seem to believe you know better and you are so adamant in your opposition and dislike for "fundis" as you call them. You fail to see that many many Christians have very "mystic"experienceses and have built their faith in God on very similar concepts as the catch basket . We have seen felt and heard and believe becourse we have seen felt and heard. But in your opinion what we have seen felt and heard is not good enough. You allow yourself to build your beliefs on your senses, but do no give us the same freedom, then you use the theory of "belief system terretories" to negate our world view, and elevate your own to doctrine. This is a double standard.

You do not discuss, but argue. I have said before that I would like to discuss things with you or anyone else, who asks questions and has a desire to share beliefs and experiences, but if you come here to prove me wrong and show me how utterly foolish my faith in God is, then you are nolonger seeking, but have found and have become a fundi in your own right but with a different set of fundementals, just another hat[]

Regards Mustardseed






[/quote]

[Gandalf]

then you use the theory of "belief system terretories" to negate our world view, and elevate your own to doctrine. This is a double standard.


I'm not attempting to change your own world view, I am just giving you mine. I dont want to elevate mine as dogma. Yes it has a higher standing than yours IN MY VIEW, according to my experience, but everyone is entitled to their own. I am just saying that I have enough experience of the astral to know how it works at its lower levels (by 'lower' I don't mean bad) and according to my own experience of how the astral works, belief centres do indeed exist, in fact, by the very nature of the astral it is an impossibility that they do not IMV. Again, I am not going by other written dogmas only by what i have found out myself.

Furthermore I have actually visited one of these places, which was more of a 'hell' in the sense that everyone there were violent types who all existed together, due to the law of 'like attracts like'; at one point a couple of idiots pulled a knife on me, it was quite funny to watch as these guys were stabbing me without effect! The belief centres work very well as these people are perfectly free to continue living their lives the way the did while alive, however they are living with likeminded people who all like doing the same thing, so while they might like going out and stabbing people, they also get stabbed themselves and suffer all the pain that goes with it.
There is no 'divine punishment' going on here, these people are just living with other likeminded individuals and suffering because of it. There is nothing keeping them there apart from their own mindset. Once they decide themselves that they no longer wish to be killers they are free to leave, not beause some greater divine power has set them free but because as 'like attracts like', they no longer are able to gravitate towards this region... they are then free to go. This sounds easy but in fact it is a lot harder than that as it is incrediblly hard to change a mindset created over many years. This applies to all the so called 'hollow hells' but also the 'hollow heavens'. It takes until the person sees through the 'hollow heaven' before they are able to go.

As far as I can tell from what I have seen, there is no divine punishment or retribution; people are not really punished for their sins, but they do seem to be punished BY them. however, these people only seem to continue punishing themselves for as long as they adhere to that mindset, once their mindset changes they can move on, however as I said, this can be a very hard thing to do. For the above reasons, I find the christian notion of 'eternal damnation' to be quite false. However if you believe that you will burn in hell you will go to just such a place, along with other like-minded people, and you will stay there until you are able to see through it, which might take a long time.
I do feel sorry for those people suffering so needlessly through these beliefs and it just goes to show the unforseen suffering that these doctrines can inflict on people, quite unknown by those who propogate them. This might be food for thought for all those who would preach hell-fire and damnation to everyone. Think about what that fear does to people and what effect it might have in this life and the next.


You fail to see that many many Christians have very "mystic" experiences and have built their faith in God... We have seen felt and heard and believe because we have seen felt and heard

I am perfectly willing to accept this.

on very similar concepts as the catch basket

I do not see how this is the case, especially as it is an essential feature of your faith system that you adhere to and accept a whole series of written doctrines as truth.


But in your opinion what we have seen felt and heard is not good enough. You allow yourself to build your beliefs on your senses, but do no give us the same freedom, then you use the theory of "belief system terretories" to negate our world view, and elevate your own to doctrine. This is a double standard.


I do allow you the same freedom. Many advanced astral explorers I know used to be Christians and used to hold the same view as yourself. some are on this forum; I would ask that you discuss this area with Jeff Mash, who himself used to be a 'born again' christian before it eventially lost its relevence for him. They explored more as to the source of these experiences they had felt during their 'christian period' which ultimatly led to the first step into a larger world. Others are content not to take it any further and are happy to integrate their experiences into their existing belief system; this is why i am perfectly willing to accept that some Christians like yourself, as well as members of other religions, can often 'feel' their faith and provides them with a connection with 'the source'.

However, those I mentioned who took it further embarked on a path which has now opened up the world to the extent where none of them regard them selves as 'christians' any more, or members of any other mainstream religion. The mainstreams for them were just starting points. However, many people do find the mainstream religions provide a communion with the greater world but are happy to leave it at that, and they remain within the structure of the mainstream religion to which they belong, which is fine if that is what you want.

However it remains the case that *the more you experience the astral, the less relevent mainstream religion (whatever it is) becomes*, it is like a set of scales, and the more you weight you put into one, it lessons the importance of the other. This happens quite simply because the more you experience astral reality, the more you are able to recognise the human constructed world in its proper perspective, with mainstream religon being yet another human construction, like everything else.

This has been noticed by some in the church who try to discourage people from taking the initiative in this regard, stating that such ideas are 'delusions of satan'.

Douglas

[wisp]

Gandulf,
You have expressed very well what I see as true on all points with the exception of the Mustardseed factor. Mustardseed at one time said he is unlike 99% of christian's out there. This is an important statement. I know what he means by this, do you? I have to say the same thing, I'm 99.9% different than any other christian. In fact, I may not even be a christian by the definition, by many. I just call myself that because I adhere to the basic trinity concepts, that's it. Anything else is between God and me. The territory you speak about may be flawed in other people's view, you have a right to your opinion and reality. But by not knowing the hearts and minds of this "herded" bunch you see, you may be closed to another spiritual realm. I know you don't care.  My view on this, there is more than meets the eye (or any other senses which apply). Yes, christianity is a starting point in my opinion. I have said it before. I identify with where your coming from on this. How I differ, I in no way place myself on a higher hierarchy level because of my spiritual progression in this direction. This is because there are individual paths that go just as deep within their traditional faith systems. I have never been threatened or injured by dogma/creed issues. In fact, I'm fascinated by the catholic religion. I have on occasion thought God has a preference for the catholic religion. I'm not a catholic, just a hunch. That point aside, I believe God is about power. If I applied the out-side of christian beliefs(to avoid naming names) to my life, using my own experiences, I would be God. The only flaw in that, I'm not God. I know the difference.
Before I began my latest spiritual journey, I had two significant dreams. One dream represented the view point you make. The other dream represented my previous christian beliefs. I'm putting the pieces together for myself. So far, both views are valid (imo).You wrote such a clear overview of your belief, mention any holes you see in my views mentioned. I wouldn't mind being tested on what I believe. The same goes for any christian viewpoints.  

Great writing Gandulf,I enjoyed reading your posts.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Douglas
Thanks for the reply. You express yourself so much better in English than I and I find it quite the linguistic challenge to attempt to take up the discussion in a like manner . Just to let you know my post are quite laborious process [8D]

Anyway. I am first quite pleased that we can have the conversation in a decent manner, I am sure everyone involved in the thread would agree, this is much more productive and very much appreciated. Thanks.

I have been thinking about your post a lot. Even way back in the 70s I knew about this theory and as  hippie it was quite frequent to meet people who had this world view. As I went through my life however and as I gained my "life experiences" I found that words in themself and theories with no attachment to real life started to matter less to me. Action, in how people lived their lives started to mean more. I felt compelled to look at the people who had these beliefs and determine if I wanted to go to the emotional physical state where these or other worldviews led me. I am assuming here that what we believe make us what we are.

The New Agers (Neags []) in my opinion were just as bad off as the Christian Churches. (Fundis[8D]). I felt determined to embrace the belief I saw resonating in me as the TRUTH. I looked in various "Panteistic" places but in the Bible and Christianity (not Churchanity mind you) I found my home. Its words of Love, attitude of compassion and mention of a God not concerned with works buildings, spiritual discipline and righteousness in a physical way but only LOVE appealed to me.

As I put its words into effect it came alive to me. Visions dreams, prophecy as well as much other good "fruit". There have been downsides and bad samples but even these has been good for me as samples of how NOT to act. (my basket is full of good fruit[])

This is the reason of the faith that is within me. As I said before I do not have a need nor do I feel it is in my place to do penance for past mistakes of other Christians, apologise for the inquisition or go to jail cause some TV preacher gets greedy[]

My worldview has changed since that time. 76. It has expanded and continues to do so. You talk about some adding to theirs, and I get the feeling you believe this to be sort of a smokescreen and something people do becourse they have no guts to throw it all away. Maybe it is I will have to think about that for a while. My first inclination tells me it is not[].

My basic notion and belief is that there is intelligent consious activity behind the universe spiritual/ physical. Its is not an system running on its own. In that view I have asked myself

1.I have been wondering if the Christian beliefsystem territories, that people talk about so much could be a planned purposeful step, to help people who will have to make a transition and facilitate. Not to keeping them trapped as if it is a selfimposed hell as some hautily throw at you, but the second step of a ladder that we should all or some should progress by. I ask this becourse it seems evident thet there are right and wrong ways to do things in the physical and astral. Fx. RB and others talk about inducing OBEs with drugs as a bad idea, as the spirit is not ready and developed enough sort of driving without a licence or experience. Are some people running ahead of God?, and the plan?

2. Could it be a possibility that the entire Astral world that you and others consider the "real" astral/spiritual reality, is just a "beliefsystem territory" sort of a giant sandbox, where those who are a bit ahead of God are allowed to experiment and play castles soldiers and so forth, till they come to a developement or a maturity where they understand Gods ways. Before you refute this bear in mind that there was a time when the entire world , as gigantic as it was in your mind, consisted of probably no more than 2-3 blocks or maybe a small town.

3.I have learned in my life Douglas to not take things by appearance. To look deeper. This goes for people, feelings, experiences as well as of course what I am taught by books. I have had a very interesting conversation with Beth and look forward to her Book, her opinion!. I know that the Bible translations have "flaws" if you can call it that. Aeon is one of them. There are others!!!But I also believe there is more to the Bible than meets the eye, there is in my mind no doubt that deeper levels of understanding in every aspect of life exist, but just becourse we know this , do we have to go there?

There is much knowledge that is bad for us. Maybe much Astral experience that we were not meant to know, and many levels we are not yet ready to explore. Maybe. Just becourse we can .....should we? I find it facinating though and am exploring in my own little way. I have found that I am capable of inducing the vibrations almost at will, leading me to believe or assume I could project at will also. Give take a bit[]

I proceed cautiously, not becourse of fear of demons or fear of my mind , but becourse I want to move WITH God. Not ahead of him not behind. I can only try to listen to that still small voice, intuition and gut feeling and then pray for his guidance in this.

Regards Mustardseed


Ps I forgot, the fact that Jeff and others were Christians and Born again as you put it, in years past seems very unconclusive, and not a very useful point in our discussion. You are surely aware that thousands of Christians came to believe in Jesus after a long life of involvement in all sorts of New Age doctrines, including most definately OBEs.

[Gandalf]

Could it be a possibility that the entire Astral world that you and others consider the "real" astral/spiritual reality, is just a "beliefsystem territory" sort of a giant sandbox, where those who are a bit ahead of God are allowed to experiment and play castles soldiers and so forth, till they come to a developement or a maturity where they understand Gods ways.

But if the belief system territiories are themselves a form of 'belief system territiories', this means that you accept the premise that belief system territiories exist.

Why then would christian beliefs be exempt form this area, because it is 'more correct' than every other belief? By stating this you are only returning to the old neverending circular agument again, where each mainstream religion states that it is the one true belief.

The explorations of the astral made by explorers in recent years has instead decided to move on and their findings make much more sense IMO, especially as you can verify the way that the lower astral works for yourself; that is the crucial difference.
I don't want to go into this again but my own personal experience of the astral leads me to conclude that all strong religious beliefs will be represented in the astal in this way; it is simply unavoidable. Other much more advanced explorers than me have travelled way beyond these realms to the higher astral, which appears to be inhabited by all those whose beliefs were not dogmatic.... I should point out here that it really is only the fundamental brigade who will find themselves in the BST.

Ok, I accept that it might be said that these higher realms may themselves be BST, but it is unlikely for the good reason that the higher realms are not generated by personal beliefs and strong emotional responces, which you can 'feel' generate your enviroment in the lower levels with a bit of experience.

Those with a great amount of control learn to 'shut off' emotional emanations while in the astral. When this happens the lower belief levels fall away and they emerge in a enviroment which is far more stable and utterly different to what went on below that it completly changes your perspective for ever. The lower levels are seen in their true perspective as reflections of human based beliefs. They find that this new enviroments isnt altered by their own emanations, it is there whether they like it or not, they cannot alter it, an indication that these levels are NOT generated by their own beliefs. Many have tried to alter the higher levels but to no effect.

Again, I cannot comment as I have not reached such heights but I am willing to accept the notion as it agrees with what I have found so far; I am making slow steady progress with the lower astral and I have begun to observe how uncontrolled though and emotion create enviroments, which is I beleive how 'dreams' are generated.

Douglas
 

[Mustardseed]

quote:But if the belief system territiories are themselves a form of 'belief system territiories', this means that you accept the premise that belief system territiories exist.

Huh??

quote:
Why then would christian beliefs be exempt form this area, because it is 'more correct' than every other belief? By stating this you are only returning to the old neverending circular agument again, where each mainstream religion states that it is the one true belief.

I did not say that Fundis would be exempt. Look again. I only differentiate between Christians and fundis. !!!! I believe some fundementakists will be side by side with all sorts of other people whos faith is in traditionalism....only.

You did not answer my 2 other posts, what do you think.

I am of course biased as I believe in Jesus Gandalf and I believe that He is the way. However who knows what the future holds for each individual YOU could become a Christian in the future. I know you will say no way but you must admit it is a possibility. It is the same principle I am talking about. We are all guessing and I resent you, as well as Adrian (greetings all[]!!)who pretend to be so well informed, when infact you are just like the rest of us....guessing. No pompous diatribe and pontification about "other astral explorers have found and bla bla" really cuts it with me as well as many others, your main following will be, PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE AS YOU DO. The rest of us will just sit back and wait it out and resign us to the "notion" that we "must be meddeling in things too high for us" and we should leave all such thinking and questioning to the knowledgable people the ones who has enlightenment, the spearhead the priesthood, the CHURCH, and ......whoops we are right back where we started. Dont you see it.

quote: but it is unlikely for the good reason that the higher realms are not generated by personal beliefs and strong emotional responces, which you can 'feel' generate your enviroment in the lower levels with a bit of experience.

Sorry Doug, you speculate[]. This is entirely your assumption and not based on anything at all. Even the theory about the existance of these "levels" as you call them is highly speculative. We do not know ANYTHING hardly about where and how they are accessed. Even the most experienced have only experienced them in fleeting very brief moments, and their ideas are nothing more than speculations either and educated guesses. The entire OBE EXPERIENCE IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE for goodness sake, so let us not ...please let us not get dogmatic about what, where and how the astral works.  


Regards Mustardseed

[GhostRider]

 Anyways, it was a cool story.  But isn't there areas of the astral where your deepest fears, your 'real' beliefs, your virtues and prejudices play out like you're on a holodeck?  As in, if you're Christian, you see Mary, J.C. and G-to-the-D there?  If you're Muslim you see Allah and the mighty virgins...(wonder how they got there, were they too ugly to live and someone killed them?), if you're New Age you see...you get my drift.  Anyways, I was wondering if there is a place where all your inner thoughts and beliefs get played out.  Is this a general locale that's common to all astral travels?  

[Gandalf]

The rest of us will just sit back and wait it out and resign us to the "notion" that we "must be meddeling in things too high for us" and we should leave all such thinking and questioning to the knowledgable people the ones who has enlightenment, the spearhead the priesthood, the CHURCH, and ......whoops we are right back where we started. Dont you see it.


No, I don't recomend people just 'sit back'. I recomend they find out things for themselves. However, if they dont I am not going to set up a ministry to preach to them over the pulpits; people can do what they like.  All I am saying is that IMO people should find out things for themselves. Ordinary people.... all those who experience obes etc are ordinary people. They should feel free to explore what these things mean and how far it can take them and what they can learn from it. They can read other authors (including christian authors - not all of them are against it), but these are guides only... its all about coming to your own conclusions based on what you have experienced yourself.. not from books.... people should be their own 'priests'. In fact most obe authors that I would recommend have never set themselves up as some kind of new priesthood.
Rather their attitude for the most part has always been 'dont believe what I say. find out for yourself'.

I agree that there are plenty spurious types out there who claim all sorts of fundamental truths but you just have to exercise some common sense.

Example: Monroe's insitute. People come from across the world to their lab so that they can learn to achieve obe states. However, Monroe had no 'truth' in which he stated 'this is how it is'.
He wrote books on what HE HAD FOUND', but he recognises that much 'truth' is in fact subjective.
Therefor, those who attend the institut are encouraged to come to their own findings and the emphasis is on personal exploration and growth. The monroe institue just trains you to achieve obe states and enter the astral. After that the rest is up to you.

I have yet to meet any christian priest who will openly say that their text may not be true and that the best way to achieve your own 'truth' is through your own explorations; no, they state that their written word is 'gospal truth' and there is no room for questioning the objective 'truth' of said texts.


Sorry Doug, you speculate. This is entirely your assumption and not based on anything at all. Even the theory about the existance of these "levels" as you call them is highly speculative.


Were you not reading? I have already said as much.

however, I take exception to the statement that all of this is an assumption. I have already said that i have proved for myself through my own experiences of the astral, how the lower end of it works. This I have proved for myself, not for you or anyone else.
I was just telling you what others have found out about the higher levels, which i have said I tend to belive is the case, as I think there must be something more 'concrete' above the lower astral level, which is hopefully not so sensitive to thought processes/emotion.
However, as I said, although I think what these people have found is agreeable, I cant say how true it is as i have never experienced these levels, or anything above the lower astral.

Perhaps your christian reality DOES lie above the astral level. I would tend to think not as imo christianity is yet another organised human belief, but then again, maybe I'll be shocked to find out that it is real. However even if this was the case, would you accept the idea that the 'fundis' might well be trapped in their own 'fundi' version of heaven?

Douglas

PS the term 'fundi' is becoming more popular I see!
Interestingly, when I first heard this term it was not being applied to christian 'fundis'. It was actually an article about arch-materialists like James Randi etc who absolutly refuse to accept any other kind of reality other than what they can see with their own eyes or prove through 'empirical science'
The article refered to them as 'fundi-materialists'; and can count many scientists among their number.
Now, you and I would both be taking shots across the broad-side from these guys!

At one paranormal conference, where the speaker was giving a very good account of psychic phenomena...with good evidence, one fundi-materialist from the back of the audience, (a membr of Sci-cop, a 'sceptical' magazine), blurted out 'it doesnt matter WHAT EVIDENCE you give me; even if you PROVE it I still wont believe you!'
This gives you some idea the guys im talking about!

Anyway, I liked the term 'fundi' so applied it here to refer to Christian 'fundis'. I agree There are all kinds of fundis and i agree that you also get New-age-fundis as well or nuagers... is it nuagers?

[wisp]

This is interesting reading. Gandalf, I must say, you have some convincing ideas. It sounds as if you have explored the lower astral. Do you have any more insights about the lower astral? Do you have any guides in your experiences? I can see how physical orientation (as known here) can differ from the astral. That's why it wouldn't surprise me that the traditional religious symbols wouldn't necessarily be present in the astral. For the most part,the only lower astral I've experienced, is this physical realm. The lower astral (as defined) is blended to me.The seen/unseen, the heard/not heard, so on, so forth.Like a pulsating back and forth of two realms interacting.
It seems to me territory could be a lower astral concept. Do you see or understand it that way? Territory suggests limits and ownership of something.

About this article:

quote: this pastor found himself standing before the judgment throne of Christ. His life flashed before his eyes and he saw his life and ministry, and what it could have been...

Is it just me, but this article doesn't describe Tom Severson's NDE.It would be interesting to read about.


It seems to me that spirit intervention comes into play in so many things. Isn't this the wild card of some of the mysteries we seek to discover?

[Mustardseed]

Hi Douglas. Happy Christmas to you!!

I have been super busy working the last weeks time but have been trying to go over or crystalize what I think and do not think about the Astral. I find that there is one aspect we are not adressing and it is somewhat confusing but I find it still worth considering.

As yourself I have had numerous astral experiences. Most of those were not concious projections, tho I am getting the hang of that. Most were WILD experiences and in the upper astral levels. I have a problem with the RTZ personally and do not like it there much, for reasons we could talk about some other time. Anyway. I find that as I have progressed on my astral path, many things have come to pass that I have read would come to pass though some have turned out slightly different. It seems that we can all agree that the Astral and what is experienced there is much determined by the individual. This is my first consideration. If this is the case and if we make our own reality there, what is to say that one reality is superior to another reality. Who can judge. ?

I also ask myself in view of the many NDE and OBEs experienced by folks from all religions. What is really happening and is there absolutes in that realm. Many encounter a being of light in many of those NDE and OBEs and, depending on their faith they say it is Jesus buddha satan or whatever. This however does not make the light Jesus Buddha or whatever!!. If it is Jesus (or God) it is still Jesus weather someone thinks it is Buddha right? This is ofcourse the same the other way around. A rose by any other name is still a Rose.

So the things we experience in the astral could then be absolute, no matter what we  call them and what labels we attach.

If they are absolute, then there might be more to the Belief territories you talk about!!. Some may be resting places, schools etc but a true believer who has yielded their spirit to God should not be bound there but be at home everywhere (I mean after death). Is this an angle you could comment on. I apologise for the confusion I realise I am having a hard time explaing my thoughts on these things.

Regards Mustardseed

[Gandalf]

Hi wisp-
Yes territory seems to me like a physical thing, much like personal possesions. These are essential charactersitics of the physical realm, but in the astral I would say they have no great meaning as the astral is like an infinite sized canvas from which you can create objects and enviroments as much as you like.

However, although I say this, there seems to be an infinite amount of realms or territories in the astal created by peoples thought processes so you could say that territory is an issue there well.

The main thing is that there is not *competition* for resources which goes on here, so although there are many territories in the astral, the actual human *fixation* with territory seems to be insignificant.

I suppose also that you are right in that the physical could be seen as the lowest form of astral. We have to remember that these terms we use are simply those definitions dreamed up by ourselves!
--------------------------

Mustardseed_

Merry Christmas to you as well!


I think you are right in that we often percieve higher astral beings in a form that approximates our own belief system, which accounts for many of the NDE accounts which refer to different faiths.

While *some* of these beings may be purely astral 'constructs' if you like, some of them will be 'absolute' and we are just perceiving them through the lens of our particular belief system, as you say.

We then have to ask the question as to what their nature really is and do they corrospond to something or some faith system we can relate to.... is any one faith 'closer to the mark' than others in this respect?

Whatever the case, I think that any good hearted individual who has a loving connection to their faith and ultimatly loves their god and humanity, has nothing to worry about; they are on the right path.
As far as I can tell, and from what others have said about this region, the belief system territories are only a problem for fundamentalist types who preach hatred and intolerence (not originally on purpose but because they are deluded).

You are right that I cannot say that the Christian teachings about Heaven and the nature of reality are false; some kind of Christian reality may lie above the lower astral.

We'll both have to wait and see!

Douglas

[Robin]

http://www.vineyardboise.org/publications/articles/2002/quarter_2/tom_severson.htm

His throat slashed by a vagrant, this pastor found himself standing before the judgment throne of Christ. His life flashed before his eyes and he saw his life and ministry, and what it could have been...