Being a Christian and still able to do OBE

[Sorrow]

Well my dad is a christian and really believes in god and when I started to study OBE and Im afaird to tell him and on June 15 Im going to get bapties (sorry dont know if that is now you spell it.) So let me get to the point if you are a christian can you still be able to AP? Is it like against my religon? Please I someone to answer this for me?!?

[Stookie]

One of the biggest things that holds a person back from being able to AP are beliefs. Not necessarily the belief in Christianity, but the belief that you can't if you're Christian.

I believe that a person should live their lives as they did before learning AP and let things naturally change. Learning AP doesn't mean you can't be a Christian, a scientist, a skeptic, etc...  AP experiences may eventually change it, but there is no reason that they can't both be a part of life. AP should widen your view about yourself and your life, not constrict it.

[quester]

It's a sad we feel we cannot be open and honest with the ones we love, especially out of the fear of hurting them. This is very important question to many of us here, one we should deal with. Is there an absolute here. A similar thought I hold is, can one be a (valid/believing) Christian and not believe in the devil. For example a wicca knows they can be a Christian, but a Christian says absolutely untrue, they cannot. So who is right?

All groups have their rules and so the question (at least for me) is must I abide by the rules there and does one have the right to adopt some of the rules but not all they set. What is the obligation. Notice the the use of your word "christian" implies the force of  validation of a system, therefore and conflict. There are other issue here as well. If you are not aware, you are of course worried about hurting another which is indeed such a pure motive. There are now 2 questions. I want to recognize what you thought a simple question is really a very complex one of being not only spiritual, but psychological, and social. 

The reality is the assumption of some specific almost physical GOD. There are 3 main GODs in the world today, Christian GOD, Muslim GOD, and Jewish GOD. First, you must recognize you have this perception of a concept of the Creator. A specific belief that became reality. This perception in your mind is based on your upbringing of what you have been told GOD is, by what people said it is. You are not alone here. 

Are we allowed to (violate) accept or adopt certain rules of the group, take from a system parts while disregarding others when the group says "no". You didn't make this group, you were brought (born) into it and are a part of it. Being a member do you have the right to go against the wishes of those in the group. Are you allowed to change the group or must you leave it. This is a very lonely situation and time for you. This is why we have so many splinter groups. In truth, you will either yield to peer (group) pressure, feel terrible guilt, or leave the group. I will commit and say, of course it is your choice, but there are things you must learn first and accept. I must disagree with Stookie and say, the group says learning AP does mean you can't be a Christian. But I must agree with Stookie when they say, learning AP doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. It is a personal decision, one of perspective and truth (ever changing if you allow it). Your attachment is one of what is real to you.

The Buddha said life is pain, and to be free of it one must break attachments. Jesus said, one must hate their fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, etc. He of course did not mean to hate anything but must be willing to give up things that bind us. I hope you find your answer, but end, though you may not find the answer today, you may tomorrow, when you are prepared to accept you own mind.

 

[CFTraveler]

It's a sad we feel we cannot be open and honest with the ones we love, especially out of the fear of hurting them. This is very important question to many of us here, one we should deal with. Is there an absolute here. A similar thought I hold is, can one be a (valid/believing) Christian and not believe in the devil. For example a wicca knows they can be a Christian, but a Christian says absolutely untrue, they cannot. So who is right?

All groups have their rules and so the question (at least for me) is must I abide by the rules there and does one have the right to adopt some of the rules but not all they set. What is the obligation. Notice the the use of your word "christian" implies the force of  validation of a system, therefore and conflict. There are other issue here as well. If you are not aware, you are of course worried about hurting another which is indeed such a pure motive. There are now 2 questions. I want to recognize what you thought a simple question is really a very complex one of being not only spiritual, but psychological, and social. 

The reality is the assumption of some specific almost physical GOD. There are 3 main GODs in the world today, Christian GOD, Muslim GOD, and Jewish GOD. First, you must recognize you have this perception of a concept of the Creator. A specific belief that became reality. This perception in your mind is based on your upbringing of what you have been told GOD is, by what people said it is. You are not alone here. 

Are we allowed to (violate) accept or adopt certain rules of the group, take from a system parts while disregarding others when the group says "no". You didn't make this group, you were brought (born) into it and are a part of it. Being a member do you have the right to go against the wishes of those in the group. Are you allowed to change the group or must you leave it. This is a very lonely situation and time for you. This is why we have so many splinter groups. In truth, you will either yield to peer (group) pressure, feel terrible guilt, or leave the group. I will commit and say, of course it is your choice, but there are things you must learn first and accept. I must disagree with Stookie and say, the group says learning AP does mean you can't be a Christian. But I must agree with Stookie when they say, learning AP doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. It is a personal decision, one of perspective and truth (ever changing if you allow it). Your attachment is one of what is real to you.

The Buddha said life is pain, and to be free of it one must break attachments. Jesus said, one must hate their fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, etc. He of course did not mean to hate anything but must be willing to give up things that bind us. I hope you find your answer, but end, though you may not find the answer today, you may tomorrow, when you are prepared to accept you own mind.
 

Quester I really love your answer- can I quote you one of these days?

[quester]

Quester I really love your answer- can I quote you one of these days?

Thank you for your comment. You may use these thoughts to which I am sure you will add valuable knowledge.

[DH]

Well my dad is a christian and really believes in god and when I started to study OBE and Im afaird to tell him and on June 15 Im going to get bapties (sorry dont know if that is now you spell it.) So let me get to the point if you are a christian can you still be able to AP? Is it like against my religon? Please I someone to answer this for me?!?

Sorrow,
There are hundreds of Christian groups with various and often conflicting beliefs.  Some think OBE is of the devil and others think it's a fascinating part of God's wonderful Universe.  I don't know where your dad falls as far a beliefs go.  OBE may be against his "religion", but you'll have to decide if it's against yours.

Personally, I was raised in a mainline Christian home, and later was part of an evangelical/charismatic group.  I don't accept most of the church doctrines I accepted when I was younger, but I still have no problem with calling myself a Christian when it comes to what Jesus taught -- that love and serving others are at the heart of the universe.  And I think that OBE is awesome and worth pursuing.

Blessings to you as you sort through all of this.  I would say be patient with your dad if he thinks this OBE stuff is crazy.  If you still live at home you probably won't want to start a war over this.  You can still learn and develop your own spirituality by quietly tuning in to forums such as this.

The main question for you to ponder is not "What does dad think?" -- but "What do I believe about this wonderful world I live in"?

[Sorrow]

Stookie, quester, DH thank you for your awsners and I will meditate and sleep on it. But I do know what you are saying and I will take it to heart. I guess when I really think about it. It all comes down to what I think not anyone else. ^.^

[vlazapax]

Hi Sorrow,

I left church because of the same kind of fears but I did a lot of searching and researching and found out I really didn't need to. My dad is a pastor and he's been very cool about remaining open to my search and has actually learned to open his mind more. Now to get back to the point--read the experiences of the prophets. They often say, "I was taken in spirit". People kind of argue about what that means and many say that means Holy Spirit. In the New Testement, the Holy Spirit is something recieved, not a vehicle, therefore it seems reasonable to think that they mean their spirit. They were taken in their spirits only. That's AP. I can't remember where it is, if it is NT or OT, or even who said it, but if you have a good concordance, (I think it MAY have been Paul) there is a passage in which one of the men says that before he had a certain vision, he felt he was taken either out of the top of his head or out his toe...something like that. Don't quote me on that until you find it--I really can't remember where it is.

Since Christianity feels it is the daughter religion of Judaism, there really is no reason to dismiss AP. Some sects of Jews believed in 7 souls and that several of them left the body at night. But I understand that a lot of what the Jews believed about the human soul and about existence has been lost to Christianity (I was a fundamentalist for 10 years and I never knew they had beliefs that were so different!). I hope your dad is tolerant of what you want to do--mine wasn't at first. Just keep in mind your reasons for doing it--if you really are trying to further your relationship to God and the universe, then there is nothing wrong. If you are doing it just to do it, or doing it for fun, there is still nothing wrong unless you FEEL like you are compromising your faith. Does that make sense? Good luck!

[CFTraveler]

Here are some Bible quotes that you may find interesting:
1 Corinthians
2:15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:16Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

12:4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 12:5And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. 12:6And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all. 12:7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal. 12:8For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 12:9to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 12:10and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues: 12:11but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.

12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
12:28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. 12:29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 12:30have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

12:31But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.
14:1Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 Corinthians 12
1  I 1 must boast; not that it is profitable, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2  I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter.

That sounds like an Astral Projection to me, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it, except to use it to stress his own humility in the rest of the chapter.

[David Warner]

Sorrow,

I just recently finished reading the whole entire NIV Bible (audio) in mp3 format dramaitization from Zondervann. This covers the OT and NT and I found so many similar experiences that the prophets wrote about in my own personal obe's.

The key here is education and intent how one understands the bible and practices obe/spirituality. Its very easy for society to look at obe's(astral projection) as witchcraft, devil's work, satanism, etc.. but the truth is experience and how it yields positivity.

I've been projecting since 1987 and have had thousands of obe's. Now, one would think that is a lot and it is. But I can tell you in my journies, I tested the spirits who follow God and who don't. I'm wise enough and notice the difference between love and hate.

My whole point here is that in the last twenty years, I'm a hospice volunteer, spiritual support compannion to the dying, attactive in my church, lead a healthy relationship with my wife, friends. I don't drink, swear, take drugs and never been convicted of crime. (not yet.. j/k ) I'm a full time worker, computer consultant, run my own business, active in the comunity and much more.

Does this sound like it ruined my life or took me down the wrong path?

Here's a quote for you to mediate on:

"The unknown leads to Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering"

Until you dive into "why you want to project and what you can do to serve your God and community" you'll
battle fear...

hope this helps!

tvos

btw: here's a excellent passage from the bible in the NT..

Romans 12:6 - Living Sacrifices

6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

[DH]

I can't remember where it is, if it is NT or OT, or even who said it, but if you have a good concordance, (I think it MAY have been Paul) there is a passage in which one of the men says that before he had a certain vision, he felt he was taken either out of the top of his head or out his toe...something like that. Don't quote me on that until you find it--I really can't remember where it is.

Paul's quote about his vision or OBE is found in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4:

2Co 12:1 This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I 1 was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago.
2Co 12:3 Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows.
2Co 12:4 But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.

What's interesting is that there was a time mentioned in Acts 14:19 when Paul was attacked and stoned by an angry mob.  He either died or was near death when some fellow Christians prayed for him and restored him:

Ac 14:19 Now some Jews arrived from Antioch and Iconium and turned the crowds into a murderous mob. They stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, apparently dead.
Ac 14:20 But as the believers stood around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe.

I've often wondered if the two events are related.  Was Paul telling the Corinthians about a near death experience?  Even if he wasn't, I still believe the other visions he and other biblical people had were related to OBE and meditation.  Jesus emphasized "praying in secret" (Matthew 6:6), which I firmly believed was meditation for him.  Sometimes he would even pray all night (Luke 6:12).  This to me suggests more listening than talking!

Onwards and inwards!   DH

[David Warner]

DH,

When I read the whole OT and NT I kept a log of the passages about dreams, trance, obe, near death reported in the bible. Yes, meditation can be practiced many ways, in prayer, inward, silence, listening, trance work or just cleaning the mind. Here's another good example how "God communicates to us through dreams" and is a legitimate christian tool.

Job:33:14
14 For God does speaknow one way, now another  though man may not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,

16 he may speak in their ears  and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride,

18 to preserve his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. [c]

tvos

[DH]

When I read the whole OT and NT I kept a log of the passages about dreams, trance, obe, near death reported in the bible. Yes, meditation can be practiced many ways, in prayer, inward, silence, listening, trance work or just cleaning the mind. Here's another good example how "God communicates to us through dreams" and is a legitimate christian tool.

Job:33:14
14 For God does speaknow one way, now another  though man may not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,

16 he may speak in their ears  and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride,

18 to preserve his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. [c]

Good one!  People seem shocked to find that the Bible is loaded with this kind of stuff.  Especially some Christians!  The great mystic saints of the past have been living examples the "paranormal" suggested in the Bible:  Theresa, John of the Cross, Eckhart etc.

DH

[David Warner]

DH,

Indeed! I'm reading/listening to this audio book by "Further Conversations with God" by Mike Redfield and it goes into the depths of evolution, spiritualism, science and religion. Explaining that all religions have associations with paranormal (it being angels, trance, absent from the body, dream communication) and so fourth.

So what makes Christians feel that this is divination when it's printed in the bible. As I said in my earlier post

"The unknown leads to Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering"

If the person takes the time and reviews the data in the bible and understands "intent" - thats all is needed.

Here's a simple analogy:

Someone purchases a gun which can be used to ways of intent. 1. Hunting for food 2. Killing people  Now, it's the same principle with religion. If you use this information to love, care, become a better person and serve along with having obe's no one can dispute your intent. However, if it's for selfish gain, to use this knowledge to harm, kill, practice against the other person - well, that all is needed to be said.

People are too quick to judge and anger which causes mixed signals.


Here's another example from Daniel in the NIV bible which is filled with dream interpretation and
trance consciousness:

The book has two distinct parts: a series of narratives and four apocalyptic visions. Three of the narratives involve Daniel, who has the gift of prophecy, interpreting the meaning of dreams and divine omens. Two other narratives feature Israelites who have been condemned for their piety being miraculously saved from execution. In the second part of the book, the author reveals and partially interprets a set of visions which are described in the first person.


-- Where does it say that Daniel was evil, hate, out for himself, going against God's word? - Again, we go back to "Intent" and how he practices this information.



Tvos

[DH]

"The unknown leads to Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering"

So true. 

Some of what people "know" leads to fear too.  I have a nephew who is convinced that anything "paranormal" comes directly from Satan.  Even dreams are off limits. Even though God may speak, so may the devil, so Katy bar the door!     He and most of the people in his church are extremely paranoid about what they think the satanic realm is conspiring to do to them.  There's no way you can convince them any differently.

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

Sorry to lay this on you but I decided to add my FAQ section from my web site. Based on my experience reading the niv bible (last four months), and true obe experience and spiritual education.

Projecting is not for everyone, I do realize that which is fine. One doesn't need to find God through out of body experiences. All that matters is that they find what they call "God" vs. finger pointing what religion is better, and judging quickly based on lack of experience.

You can't label paranormal as "satanic" if you've never experienced it more than thousands of times. What people "know" or think they "know" leads to fear. Experience is the true and only validation and not just a couple of times.

Enjoy!


Do you think astral projection, dream communication defies religion?
No! Astral Projection does not defy religion at all. Throughout the bible
there are many scriptures that talk about God, Christ, Angels using dreams or trance state of consciousness as a valid and legitimate religious tool to communicate. Either as a warning, visions, guidance, explanation, prophecy, that follows the message of God.

Read the following scriptures about "how" dreams or trance communication between God, Angels, Spirits and humans are a legitimate religious tools.

Genesis 15:01 - God's Covenant With Abram
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
"Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, [a] your very great reward."

Genesis 46:02 - Jacob Goes to Egypt  
2 And God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, "Jacob! Jacob!"
"Here I am," he replied.  3 "I am God, the God of your father," he said. "Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for I will make you into a great nation there. 4 I will go down to Egypt with you, and I will surely bring you back again. And Joseph's own hand will close your eyes."

Numbers 12:04 - Miriam and Aaron Oppose Moses
4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, "Come out to the Tent of Meeting, all three of you." So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, 6 he said, "Listen to my words:  "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. 7 But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house.

Kings 1 3:04 & 14- Solomon Asks for Wisdom
4 The king went to Gibeon to offer sacrifices, for that was the most important high place, and Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. 5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, "Ask for whatever you want me to give you." 14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life." 15 Then Solomon awoke—and he realized it had been a dream.


Many people would argue that out of body experiences / astral projection are divination and thrill seeking. Allowing one-self to follow evil entities, false visions that will  lead to the path of darkness.

One should definitely test their intent, cause and reason during the experience. To validate if it yields spiritual education, positive influence on one's physical life and others is the key. 

Here are some more scriptures to consider.

John 4:1 - Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

The famous saying goes "The unknown leads to Fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering". We as human beings immediately classify the unknown as mystical because we can't explain it. Then this leads to a fear of the unknown which we assume as evil. Immediately it takes form of hate and then suffering that is categorized as satanic.

Out of Body Experience's and Education eliminates fear and shows the light and love of God. It doesn't push you away, or navigate you away from God, it anchors you to strive and be a better person.

I've read the New International Version Bible published by Zondervan.  Old Testament and New Testament and in my study which took me four months to complete. Nowhere does it state " Out of Body Experiences" are the work of the devil. One that projects doesn't boast, but acknowledges, teaches, and conveys the message of experience.

Corinthians 12:1 - Paul's Vision and His Thorn
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

Since 1987, I started down this path and dived deep into soul searching, spirituality and arriving at one conclusion. There are many ways to worship, follow, and practicing faith in creed. All religions are equal as long there is love of serving what one calls "God". I've found my way of testing the out of body experiences and it has yielded good fruit, it has taught me how to care, love,  grow spiritually, and become a better person. It is definitely a gift and an honor to be able to project. This is how I found God and not Satan.


Romans 12:3 - Living Sacrifices  
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Corinthians 13:1 - Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I welcome you to view the file "NIV - Science - OBE Research.doc" in the APFaqs folder. When I was reading the Bible, I documented what each book outlined along with communication of dreams, trance, miracles, prophecy and
visions.   

Tvos

[DH]

Thanks Tvos!  Your thorough work is a helpful tool.

[David Warner]

people should read Revelations... the whole book is about visions, dreams, prophecy..  on my site, I created in a word document my last four month study and picked out the dreams, trance, visions, miracles, which amounted to about 70 pages... I also wanted to document each book so that I could remember a brief outline of the stories being told...

my passion and desire to read the good book (bible) was for education, better understand, communicate, and arm myself with knowledge for discussions like these.

i've done a little random sampling asking christians if they have read the whole bible.. the majority said "yes" but surprizingly many have not...

what i am getting at is 1. how can you raise debate if you don't know the teachings of the bible and the experience of obe's?

tvos

[Beth]

Hey all,

In addition to the canonical scriptures already quoted, re: OBE/AP, there are also some very interesting verses in non-canonical texts such as the Gospel of Philip (categorized as Gnostic, but no less an original Christian writing) that are very worthy of reading closely and meditating upon:

Those who say that the Lord died first and then rose up are in error, for he rose up first and then died. If one does not first attain the ressurrection will he not die? As God lives, he would already be dead.

And:

Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...*] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. Flesh and Blood shall not be able to inherit the kingdom of God [see also 1Cor15:50]

(from the translation found at: http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm )

In reading these verses I think that OBE/AP is exactly what the writer is referring to.

Consider the following [...*] as the lacuna (the missing text) from the second quote above:

It is those who [*are willing/able/not afraid?] to unclothe themselves who are not naked.

Does this resonate with anyone else? What do you think?

Personally, I have no doubt that OBE/AP is a sign of the evolving spirit/soul. In my experience, it has only been through OBE/AP that I have been able to breech the strict boundaries of the church of Christianity.

Notice that by using the term "church of Christianity" I am intentionally distinguishing between "Christianity" and "the church that has been developed with the same name". While the "church of Christianity" cannot exist without the New Testament, the New Testament texts in no way "need the church" to be spiritually powerful for those who can study and learn from the writers' thoughts in their own 1st century context. This, of course, in no way means that all NT books are equal and necessary, rather, just those that have the spiritual efficacy needed by each seeker.

In other words, "original Christian thought" and "the later Christian church" can easily exist as mutually exclusive entities; if people choose to completely break away from "the church", they can always keep studying the NT texts in whatever way speaks to them spiritually--and with the freedom to interpret them in their own personal way. Moreover, without having the church dictate which texts are valid and which are not, seekers can read a great many other texts---guilt free---from the early Christian tradition, as well numerous other texts from related traditions.

So, hang in there Sorrow. Remember Matthew 7:7-8:

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Peace,
~Beth

[DH]

people should read Revelations... the whole book is about visions, dreams, prophecy.. 

Ezekiel is another interesting one.  That boy seems to be "flying" all over the place!

Hey all,
Notice that by using the term "church of Christianity" I am intentionally distinguishing between "Christianity" and "the church that has been developed with the same name". While the "church of Christianity" cannot exist without the New Testament, the New Testament texts in no way "need the church" to be spiritually powerful for those who can study and learn from the writers' thoughts in their own 1st century context.

Unfortunately most of the various Christian denominational churches seem content to focus on power and control -- their own!  Their interpretations of the Bible keep their faithful in check and in the dark.  One can certainly benefit by reading other ancient documents that were left out of the Bible.  Some are wacky and make a fun read (like the infancy Gospel of Thomas that tries to fill in the gaps of Jesus' childhood with stories like the child Jesus zapping people that tinkle him off!)-- others give some food for thought, like 4 Esdras of the OT Apocrypha, in which the author speaks of the Spirit of God that is in ALL people (not just the "saved" as in Paul and other NT writers.  Some of the non-canonical writers show some interesting parallels with Eastern thought.

DH