The pictures of Muhammd

[Mustardseed]

I have from time to time noticed Muslims post on the AP board and would be curious to hear your comments on the uprising and conflict that is currently taking place on the west bank and through out the Muslim world because of the 12 infamous cartoon drawings of the prophet  

http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/

Regards Mustardseed

[jilola]

Without having been able to read the actual text of the article that featured the images I'm not sure how accurate my perception of the ppictures is. however...

It seems to me that one sees in the pictures what one wants to see. For example:

Line-up: I non-muslim guy is expected to pick someone (it doesn't seems to say whome) from a what may be a police line-up. He says: "I don't recognize him"
Is that not a comment on the west form not knowing what is obvious to the Current Big Threat?

Crescent of Muhammed: Could one not read the picture that Mohammeds influence reaches all corners of the creation, even the moon and the light of god shines from his eyes?

PR-stunt: So what Did mohammed look like, seeing as there is a prohibition of making the image?

Schoolboy Muhammed: He's saying the news paper is a provocateur!  Which the offended muslims apparently agree to be so. So what is the problem?

Desert Muhammed: And he never walked in the desert?

Under the Thumb: Now this I can see why someone might be miffed. Though still, it appears a statement of fact from where I view the world.

Glory of Muhammed: I fail to see the offence. Muhammed was not god's chosen then? Or was he?

Censorship: This is a clear amd simple statement of the state of the world. Perhaps the guy featured is called muhammed, perhaps were he called George there would've been no uproar?

Preaching Jihad: The lleader tells the guys to cool it cos gettig worked up over a non-believing cartoonist si just plain dumb waste of effort.


There's a blow by blow account of some of my impressions of the pictures. The text may change the perspective and make the images more offensive.
Summa summarum, it seems that the worked up muslims are proving the impression the west has of them.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Mustardseed]

I guess I was not so much asking about the pictures as the fact that the Mideast is spiraling into a crisis about it and threatening Fatwa as well a boycotting all danish goods. They are expecting the prime minister to put the cartoonist as well as the newspaper editor in jail

[dingo]

I guess I was not so much asking about the pictures as the fact that the Mideast is spiraling into a crisis about it and threatening Fatwa as well a boycotting all danish goods. They are expecting the prime minister to put the cartoonist as well as the newspaper editor in jail

WTF how can they expect that? It's not like they run Denmark. If I were a muslim I'm pretty sure I'd respect the fact that the cartoonist has freedom of expression. I would not be insulted. Of course, I haven't seen the cartoon though.
What about cartoons about Jesus, or God, or atheists? I'm sure there must be cartoons about them. Why does no one kick up a fuss about that?

[alex_21]

I AGREE with dingo, they're just trying to innocent victims.  The Simpsons make jokes about Christianity and no one make a big deal.

[jilola]

Mideast is spiraling into a crisis about it and threatening Fatwa as well a boycotting all danish goods. They are expecting the prime minister to put the cartoonist as well as the newspaper editor in jail

The mid East has been a crisis for as long as I can remember. Nothing new has happened there as a result of this cartoon debacle.

It should be fairly clear to anyone living in a western culture that the reaction and especially the threats oof violence are not acceptable in any way.
The trend that one culture can constantly use threats to maintains its self-image is on my opinion intolerable regardless of the geographical location or religious stance.

try this for a comparison: "If you think my child is ugly, I will kill your dog"
Sound similar to many of the heated debates, argument, wars and crusades going on in the world?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[J.K.]

I see from the news that the general public is taking notice of this.  IMHO, this is good.

I think President Bush's remarks following 9-11 are still on everyone's mind.  Following those events he characterized Islam as a kind and loving religion.  Without question, Islam has some bright moments.  Without question, there are many loving Muslim people.  Without question, there are many similarities between Christian Fundamentalism and Islam.  However, for the person who follows Islam scripturally there is no other place to go but to war. - We should not be surprised to see violence breaking out in the streets...

[dingo]

I see from the news that the general public is taking notice of this.  IMHO, this is good.

Taking notice of which bit in particular? The undermining of our rights or (the majority of) Islam's extreme sensitivity?

[Ryuji]

childish all i have to say. this things you expect from children teasing each other and dont know control.

u dont see ppl burning down windows, carry be-heading posters or cutting ties when life of brain came out.

and besides one should have a laugh now and then its good for the soul

Peace and love
Ryu

[ubiquitous]

If it is incitement to racial hatred then it should be taken through a court of law and judged, if it is in bad taste and there is punishment availabe for its crime then people will know what not to publish in the future.
To carry out the burning of buildings and the calling of death to the west is not the way u should do things , so its a clash between the lack of communication of the public in the middle east and the west.
Knowledgable discussion even through humour for me should cover the whole spectrum of life to develop and uncover and understand all that surrrounds us in the past, present and future, the problem is that in doing so in this case u give the ammunition to extremist's which preach that those that drew the cartoons are expressing the view of the whole of europe.

[Souljah333]

it was all done as a stupid joke, but...he who laughs last, laughs loudest.
it should have never been allowed to go to print. it did, bcuz they knew exactly what they were doing. now there's repercussions...not to the degree that they expected, but repercussion none-the-less. the tables have turned, and no one is willing to be held accountable. it's BS IMO.

i wish everyone would stop calling them cartoons. it's belittles the whole situation. anyway...it's a sign of things to come. be cautious. be careful who you lip off to, or cut off, or laugh at, or step on...or at least be open to the possibilities that not everyone is going to take it the same way. it's one thing to roll your eyes and tell them to get a sense of humour, and it's another thing to wind up with a bullet between your eyes.

the act in itself is/was ridiculous.
it's the mentalities of everyone involved that's scary.
no one was in the right.

2cents
soul

[Mustardseed]

I believe in freedom of speech
but not when it hurts people

Sorry just popped in to get me a quote I will keep it with me as a sort of insurance Lola  

[Beth]

Hello Everyone~~

My thoughts on this issue take me back to the Medieval Christian Church, where the governing bodies across Europe would look to 'The Church' in matters of 'Law'.  This essentially made 'Christianity' the 'Judge' and the 'Jury' for many criminal offenses across the entire western world.  

Of course, civilization progressed/evolved and Civil Governments began to form, e.g., the formation of The United States and its Constitution went hand in hand with the rapid fall of Monarchies that had been sanctioned by (i.e., in bed with) 'The Church'.  With this governmental changeover to civil government, Christianity lost a great deal of its previously held 'carte blanc power'.

However, the struggle between the powers of a 'Man-Made God' and the powers of a 'Collective Civil Humanity' takes time; even after over 200 years of Civil Government, the United States is still struggling with Christianity and its desire to usurp governmental power.  Fortunately, the civil laws of this country are just that--civil laws--not religious laws.  And within these civil laws come the much debated "Freedom of Expression" which is regularly defended in our higher courts of law.  This is the issue here across the western world: do these cartoons come under the protection of 'Freedom of Expression'?  In a western, civil government, the answer is probably 'Yes'.  

But, a mere several hundred years ago, when the Christian Church was still in control of the western government, it was a regular practice to 'cut off heads', 'to execute by burning', or just plain 'torture to death' ANYONE who spoke out against the religion in general, its doctrines, or in specific, its Popes, Bishops or other clerical members.  
 
So, the extreme Islamic reaction to these newpaper drawings, e.g., execute the artists, the editors and I suppose, a large chunk of the Danish population, is not that much different than the Christian Church would have done just a few centuries ago.

Islamic countries may have a somewhat civil governing base, but it still has what is called 'Shariah Law' which is a Koranic Governing Body that usually gets the final say in matters of serious offenses. As long as the Islamic Religion has that much of a voice within the MidEast governments, then reactions like this are to be expected in defense of the religion...

Bottom line...as Civil Governments within Islamic Countries continue to spread and develop, the result will be just like it was with Christianity: the barbaric extremism in the name of religion will eventually come to an end.

Of course, the trick here is to make sure that no nukes go off in the meantime...

Peace  :question:
Beth

[Mustardseed]

I do see your line of reasoning and agree to a degree .............however, the fact that we are not living in a past world of ignorance but a world where information is available to most folks,  seem to complicate this very reasonable argument. It appears that the clerics of the Muslim religion KNEW the truth, that the drawings that enraged the masses were not even published but a hoax, and also knew the difference between the two social structures. Yet they seems to want a cultural war to result. In the Dark ages people apparently never knew nor did they have access to information to see for themselves not clerics nor commoners. This seems more like a voluntary victim type of situation with lots of hidden political agenda.

Incidentally I just had a 3 hour meeting and discussion with the artist that drew the picture where The Prophet has a bomb in his turban, a very sweet and peace loving old gent, with no ulterior motive.

Regards Mustardseed

[jilola]

OT:

My thoughts on this issue take me back to the Medieval Christian Church, where the governing bodies across Europe would look to 'The Church' in matters of 'Law'. This essentially made 'Christianity' the 'Judge' and the 'Jury' for many criminal offenses across the entire western world.

Do you think that influence is in any way over?
The effect of the sacral christian moral and ethical in the current secular legislation is glaringly obvious.
Perhaps a new thread is in order to fully discuss this?


2cents & L&L
jouni[/b]

[ubiquitous]

I think that Islam should have a leader that can control the extreme repulsive ideology's of Muslim groups around the world, as bin laden and his hence men ain't gunna listen to no one.
When are the masses of decent Muslim's going to stand up and express a coherent unified Islamic worldly view that people can smile upon,understand and embrace.
As far as i know in the Islamic guide it is not a crime to depict the prophet, there are so many Islamic groups,segments and factions Islamic laws that if u found one state where u all decided to live fighting would outbreak instantly Muslims blowing up Muslims in the name of one god???
what would be left would be something resembling a knight mare on earth!!

4Ur2b3

[Gandalf]

It is now becomming clear that it is fundamentalist clerics themselves who are responsible for creating this uproar.  
It recently emerged that the cartoons were previously published in Egypt (a Muslim country) way back in October, and nothing happened.

So clearly there has been an extremest hand in this, and sure enough it has now emerged that radical clerics in Denmark not only took the pictures, they ADDED a couple of more offensive HOAX pictures to the ones already published and then took the whole lot to the middle-east and used them to whip up an anti-Danish and by extension, anti-european frenzy.

When are moderate Muslims going to wake up and smell the coffee and deal with these radial extremests who form a minority of global Islam yet get the loudest voice? Moderate Muslims have been to afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of other Muslims, but they have to realise that these people are not true Muslims, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%

Moderate Muslims of the world: It is time to ACT!

[Beth]

Doug, you wrote--quite correctly:

Moderate Muslims have been to afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of other Muslims, but they have to realise that these people are not true Muslims, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%

Which is exactly why I made the comparison to Medieval Christianity.  In a slightly altered version of your quote, the same thing could have been said about 500 years ago...

Moderate Christians are afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of other Christians, but they have to realise that these people are not true Christians, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%

...And eventually the Protestant Reformation came about.  

Now, Jilola, about Christianity today, yes, it is once again in some serious hot water, so it is definately time to rethink Christianity yet again--for now the corruptive power of being able 'to speak for God' has enabled the Protestants to become out of control.  And yes, Mustardseed, the clerics did indeed know, but...just like the medieval priests, bishops and popes, as long as the believers are ignorant and are willing to follow blindly, then these religious authorities will continue to get away with just about anything.  My main point is that Islam today is in its 'medieval stage' just like Christianity once was...where religious tyranny meets face-to-face with a more rational, secularized world.

I am of the personal opinion that religion today has totally run amok...but religion in general is not likely to dissappear over night, with literally billions of followers of one religion or another.  It is, however, the 21st century and there are too many people who are adversely affected by religious belief systems that they themselves do not adhere to.  So, once again Doug's quote is appropriate to slightly alter for this as well:

Political moderates and liberals have been to afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of religious believers, but they have to realise that these people are not true to any kind of loving deity, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%

~Beth

p.s. Doug, I hope you don't mind if I altered the context of your words...

[ubiquitous]

I did'nt know the cartoons were published first in egypt.
These cartoons detract from the problem that there is an underlying feeling of hatred from islamic groups they utilise the west to educate themselves get money and misguide there countrymen when they go home to the east.
For such simple publications to be blown like this shows how empty there lives are waiting on oppurtunities to preach there nonsense.
The only way it will ever get resolved is to set ultimatum's for all muslims in the west so they stand up or go home or get this gradual war out there system now and forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Mustardseed]

 oh bummer .......... Tossing Lolas statement in the bin marked "promises I reserve myself the right to break if I feel like it" .....OK then you can have your promise back.............I guess that's why you did not moderate the sweet little Nicky boy who called my faith "bovine excrement"....... it all depends on who's religion is being "slurred"      take this with a smile Lola, its just funny that's all. I still think your tights and glasses are cool

[Ryuji]

My Dad is bigger and than your dad  

Peace and Love
Ryu

[Nay]

If people can't laugh at themselves then there is no hope for mankind...

If this dude is so holy that you can't poke some fun at him, then why are alot of ppl named after him..isn't that sacrilegous?

God and Jesus are made fun of all the time, but you don't see us starting riots and killing ppl.  Get a sense of humor, I say.

[Ryuji]

Nay     *poke*

heheeeh

Peace and Love
Ryu

ps cool avatar

[gdo]

This issue is a good example of 'tribalism/fundamentalism" mentality.  What might have worked many hundreds of years ago in a primitive tribal society does not work in a global enlightened society in which the concept of god had grown or evolved.  


There seems to be a cultural 'chip on my shoulder' mentality with many fundamental and tribal types of attitudes.  Some so called Christians still believe that only those that belong to their group will 'go to heaven'.

The really bad part of  this is the irrational and unreasonable attitude that
'unbelievers' are not respected in regards to life and limb.  Therefore, in reality, according to their own belief they may be called heretics and suffer the same or worse fates that they desire for the so called unbelievers.  

There is an old saying in the southern US.  You can take the boy out of the country but you cannot take the country out of the boy.  
Or like the song by the late CW singer.  'Take me home, country roads, to the place, where I BELONG"     I hope you see what I mean.

What is this 'belong', humans are given DOMINION over all EARTH, with GODLY intent, Noble, not slaves to any concepts that are DEAD, from a time 'tribal' mentality.

[Beth]

Yeah, well....since 2003, "French Fries" have been returned to their original status, and Americans are once again drinking the grape of the French vines, so....while the pen may well be mightier than the sword, I will add that the 'lust for food' is much mightier than even the pen....

I predict that this too shall pass...

Bon appetit !!....