War in Heaven

[Ryuji]

anyone have some bit more on it than:

and lucifer rebeled and was thrown out....


thanx
R

[Arn de Gothia]

And Lucifer dwelled upon the earth and collected many souls so he could invade heaven with a grand army

[Woah]

I think this is a great topic, and an even better question. I'd like to know some more about it as well.

[Stookie]

To understand the war in heaven you need to know about the Archangel Michael (found here: http://www.greatdreams.com/archangels.htm ):

Michael ("Who is as God"): Regardless of which major faith's angelic beings is being followed, Michael ranks as the highest of the host. He is the leader of the celestial armies and is the angel who fought Satan during the War and enchained the rebel leader. He is considered to be of the class of seraphim, and yet is also head of other ranks within the hierarchy: the ruler of the archangels leader of the virtues, and head of the principalities in his role as protector of Israel. Michael is considered to be the angel of the burning bush through which God spoke to Moses, and has also appeared in the book of Daniel, where God states him as being the highest within the angelic ranks. Although other angels have been attributed with the title of Angel of Death, it is Michael who weighs the souls on judgment day, after his battle once more with the forces of evil. He is mentioned
as both an angel of destruction and vengeance in the name of God, but also as a protector and the angel who kept Satan from claiming the body of Moses after the patriarch's death. By all rights, Michael can be considered foremost among the angels.

If your looking for a metaphysical answer, I suggest Rudolph Steiner's book "The Archangel Michael: His Mission and Ours". It goes deep into the cosmic influences that surround the symbology of Michael destroying Lucifer with his flaming sword.

I don't know the accuracy of it, but it's an interesting read.

[Ryuji]

interisting....

[CFTraveler]

Read the Apocryphal Book of Enoch.  It has characters in it (like Lilith, the nephilim, etc.) that we know in occult mythology but don't actually find in the Bible.  Explains where all this stuff came from.  Unfortunately, I lent mine out and never came back.  I heard that there's an ethiopian book of Enoch- I'm not sure if it's the same book.

[Ryuji]

ty, CFT - reading it now 

[Leo Volont]

anyone have some bit more on it than:

and lucifer rebeled and was thrown out....


thanx
R

yes.

Most people don't know that the Bible does not actually speak about this part of the Creation Story, but that it is the last instance of purely Oral Tradition left to our Civilization.

If you want really good source material about it, the consult Anne Catherine Emmerich, Catholicism's foremost Seer and Visionary, most recently famous for Mel Gibson's "the Passion" screenplay... it came from notebooks about her Visions.

yes, there was a War between the Loyalist Angels and the Barbarian Angels who rallied for "Freedom" from God.  It was effectively the foundation of the Republican Party and Lucifer was the first Party Chariman, the first Newt Gingrich.

It was said that Lucifer was then the Most Powerful Angel.  But God had over 60% of the Angels, and Lucifer could only persuade about 30% to take his side.   So, fortunately, God was able to outnumber Evil.

Now, on God's side, Michael, the Commander of the Avenging Angels of Justice is the most powerful and spectacular Angel of Heaven.  It is now rather disputed whether Lucifer, now a big ugly Arch Demon, is still as powerful as he once was, and whether Michael is not now more than Lucifers equal in sheer power, strength, influence and effect. 

Indeed, the power may be something of the same kind.  Michael, as the Avenging Angel, is no Nice Guy.  He not only has brought mere individuals to their Doom, but has probably destroyed entire Civilizations because they somehow ticked him off.

People have the mistaken impression that Angels wait around for orders from God before they do the least little thing, but that is probably not the case at all.  God could probably call them off, but when they feel like going into action, they just do.   For instance, when Christ was Crucified, Anne Catherine Emmerich says that Michael instantly began destroying the Temple and would have wasted Jerusalem, but Christ, new as a Ghost, talked him out of it, and it wasn't easy.  Remember the Veil at the Temple tearing into two... that was Michael beginning his destruction.

Legend has it that every 666 years the Avenging Angels under Michael thin out the World's Populations, citing Evil as the cause for their vengence, but I would guess that Michael does not much like Human Beings and that he has not been very much impressed by any particular Civilization and he probably supposes that most Religions have not gotten enough of it Right.

There is a story of the Plague wiping out Rome in the 6th Century.  When all seemed hopeless, the Bishop of Rome called together a delegation of survivors and they conducted a procession through the streets carrying an Image of the Blessed Virgin.  Suddenly there was a bright light and they all looked up, and above the Cathedral was the Archangel Michael amidst a blase of Golden Light, and they saw him sheathing his Sword.  From that day the Plague desisted.  There would not be another big Plague until the Black plague... 666 years later.

[Arn de Gothia]

Well, the bible are totally corrupt and probably written by Satan himself, so you can't trust anything in it. There might be some truth in the new testament tho. I don't think God and the angels would judge or destroy anyone, that's what we do.

http://www.phoenixarchives.com/Journals/Published/009.pdf

I found this, very interesting indeed

[Ryuji]

story seems flaw at most and more,
apart from having God having to conquering death 2x. death/resurrection of christ and then again on judgementday.

God == allpowerfull, He doesn't need a army nor a side and could at any given time just think satan away,

but then again this is another human's interpretation of divinity.

anyways 'war in heaven' still interisting study at most.

[Ryuji]

Well, the bible are totally corrupt and probably written by Satan himself, so you can't trust anything in it. There might be some truth in the new testament tho. I don't think God and the angels would judge or destroy anyone, that's what we do.

http://www.phoenixarchives.com/Journals/Published/009.pdf

I found this, very interesting indeed

that book is clairy contradicting itself and hehe christian based

page 22 'witches arn't satanists' - says that so called tools on page 10 'And you who have denied the supernatural presence of satan or God for that matter-- what of you? have you perhaps replaced that supernatural belief..." (bottom part) are evil and from satan but on this page (page 10) its just tools and can be iether used for good or evil not just evil from evil 0_o

[Arn de Gothia]

Well, It's written by Sananda (Jesus Christ)

[Psionic]

from what I saw in my part Vision/OBE. I find it impossible to believe that there can ever be a war in heaven. I think we take our limitations as humanity(lack of understanding, fighting, etc.) and try to project them to the spirit entities we only see in dreams,OBEs, visions or read about in mythology.

The consciousness of spirit entities is intertwined, like they are thinking with one mind and loving with one heart.They know everything there is to be known and their love for every soul in all of creation is deep and unconditional. They know every soul in all of creation and at this moment they us better than we know ourselves.These are the things you become aware of when your consiousness is in a heightened state. As I found out during my Vision/OBE this is also our nature when we are not incarnated here on earth.

One more thing, when spirit entites fight, do they die? if so then, where do they go?

[gzaod]

For a purely visual idea, you guys should look to the poets. Read Paradise Lost, by Milton. Now.

Epic stuff

I plan to make a film version of it one day

Peace.

[Astir]

but then again this is another human's interpretation of divinity.

...As with anything written...in any language...it's frustrating really. What to trust, what to trust. Read all of it as if it's fiction. *sigh*

[Goober]

  Getting into the higher Astral planes is all about intention. With good intention, it is easier to travel into the higher planes than it is with bad intention. Notice how "the voice of silence" is always contacting Angels, and how he is always doing it with love?

  So, based off of that, you would have to have good intentions to get into Heaven. So, their must be no war in Heaven.

[Haridas]

...As with anything written...in any language...it's frustrating really. What to trust, what to trust. Read all of it as if it's fiction. *sigh*

Well,

epistemology=theory of knowledge

ascending method = you try to achieve Absolute Truth with your abilities
descending method = you try to make it so Absolute Truth will descend to you

hint=although Absolute Truth has impersonal aspect, mainly it is a person and has a will.
Absolute Truth may want not to be known by you.

Cheers!
Haridas

[Paola]

Urantia has an interesting explanation.  www.urantia.com

In it, it says that lucifer and satan are two different entities, and 666 is the number of planets quarantined after the lucifer rebellion.  Apparently earth is no. 602 of these.

The astral is supposed to be the quarantine of all mans thoughts. So it doesnt affect the rest of the universes.
This is where we go when we sleep and dream.

Depending on the quality of your thoughts, you end up in the same level in the astral, higher, lower etc, when you dream.

It also says in urantia that Lucifer can not be brought to trial.  That everything in the universe has to self destruct.  No judgement.

Thought id throw that in!  Add to the confusion . lol.

[SpiritWings]

Well my religion believes in 3 separate entities in the Godhead, a father God, a Son, and a Being of spirit some know as the Holy Ghost.  Here's the WiH story from my understanding and upbringing:

At this point, the head God, (Father, Elohim) is a corporeal being, and has innumerable hosts of spirit children, and plans a giant Family Council (Council in Heaven) for his children.  The basic idea is to set up a plan for mortal and extramortal progression, that involves going through the process of life and death.  Then it comes to how these spirits will be saved from the planned 'Fall'.

Two prominent and elder (in fact both were likely the eldest) sons of this being came forward with plans for saving mankind.  Lucifer, and Jehovah, to very exalted and godlike beings came forth, in fact both could be considered gods to one degree or another.    They offered their plans before the masses of spirits.

Lucifer's plan was that of basically guaranteed exaltation, godhood and immortality.  He seemed boastful that he would "save 'em all".  There was more of a sense what he wanted over the Father.

Jehovah's was a selfless submission to the will of the Father.  As on the cross, and in the garden, it was "Thy will, not mine, be done".

Jehovah was chosen, and Lucifer grew jealous and bitter until ultimately rebelling, but not before leading roughly 1/3 of the hosts to follow his cause in the high level rebellion against one's parents (yes, I believe in an exalted Mother as well).

As the story goes, he became "that old serpent" the devil, Satan, etc.

What I draw from this:

666 may in fact John's best way of describing the 2/3s that Lucifer is still striving to win for his cause.  He did not have the decimal system back then, and 1000 is a key symbolical number, so 666/1000 would be interpreted as "two-thirds".

It's not said whether Lucifer can ever be redeemed, but I find eternal damnation really hard to swallow.  I'll just leave it at that.  There is one modern scripture in my church that says "eternal" punishment is called such more because it comes from an eternal being.   So it may leave a door open a loooong way down the road.   Either way, it doesn't seem like desirable path, the one he took.

----

Obviously (to me at least), there was an order set up where God came to be.    I believe he went through a mortality much like his Only Begotten.  Where it all started?  This is probably the ultimate truth, and a long way off for many to ever know.  There's a hymn that asks this question, but fails at an answer.

Other scriptures in my church say that spirits of ALL living things (animals, plants, etc.) were "in the beginning with God" as a metaphysical form of matter known simply as "intelligence", which could not be created or made.  This means even God came from an organizational "nothing" so to speak.

Now whether this "intelligence" can act in, well, an intelligent manner is not said.  I always assumed that there was some ability to act in order to bring about the first embodied spirits.  Even chaos of thought and motivation could cause some kind of guided energy.  It was probably long and tedious, but much like the physical evolution theory, once the first is made, it gets easier from there.  Maybe telekinesis of chaotic spirit mass is the "First cause".

I have some extra-religious ideas on this, like how practically infinite #s of Gods keep going on with their order of practically infinite children, and what the ultimate point of it all is.  This is one reason why I find black holes, singularities, and parallel universes such fascinating concepts.

It may just be that there is no one spirit parent, but many.  However, all spirits follow a single "chief God".

I read that the Hebrew translation for the opening passage of the Old Testament is something to the effect of:
"The Head of Gods called forth the Gods". as if there was a numerous host of Gods, but one chief one.  Eloheim means "Gods" in the plural form.

Many other ancient religions agreed with this idea to extent.  Zeus was king of Olympus, Odin over Valhalla & Asgard, etc.  A religion can be both mono- and poly-theistic to certain degrees.

[Meneleus]

Regarding the original post, Milton's Paradise Lost describes the angels rebellion.  Great read too!

[violetlight]

ascending method = you try to achieve Absolute Truth with your abilities
descending method = you try to make it so Absolute Truth will descend to you

fantasticaly said- so true.

[Shamyaza]

anyone have some bit more on it than:

and lucifer rebeled and was thrown out....


thanx
R

Lucifer is the Light Bringer which is the morning star which heralded the coming of the Sun. Originally, Lucifer was the planet Venus. Judaism is a religion that has collected pieces of different region's beliefs and remade them in their own image. Therefore, some new interpretations emerge through centuries of ignorance. They worshiped Isis(Wisdom) in Egypt, then Ra(the Sun) when the new religion emerged, then El(Saturn) when they entered Palestine, and eventual became Israel.

Todays religions are merely veiled astrology. God's son has always been the Sun, the giver of life. The 12 apostles, 12 tribes of Israel, etc. are the 12 astrological signs. The universe has always followed the pattern of the stars and the ancients people knew this perhaps because they were actually intuned with the Intelligence that permeates all matter or maybe spiritually evolved aliens taught them.

The oldest religion is astrological theology.

[seen Here]

Legend has it that every 666 years the Avenging Angels under Michael thin out the World's Populations, citing Evil as the cause for their vengence, but I would guess that Michael does not much like Human Beings and that he has not been very much impressed by any particular Civilization and he probably supposes that most Religions have not gotten enough of it Right.

There is a story of the Plague wiping out Rome in the 6th Century.  When all seemed hopeless, the Bishop of Rome called together a delegation of survivors and they conducted a procession through the streets carrying an Image of the Blessed Virgin.  Suddenly there was a bright light and they all looked up, and above the Cathedral was the Archangel Michael amidst a blase of Golden Light, and they saw him sheathing his Sword.  From that day the Plague desisted.  There would not be another big Plague until the Black plague... 666 years later.

Curious. The Black Death is supposed to have broken out in Europe in 1347 - as far as anyone can pin a date on these things. Add 666 and you get 2013.

seen Here

[MindFreak]

The Bible is taken from much older mythologies. The war between "god" and Lucifer/satan is taken from the war between the mesopotamian gods Enki and Enlil. Enlil was made to be "god" in the bible and Enki was the "rebel" that went against his brothers wishes, as Enlil was put in charge by their father. Enki wanted to make men like the gods, which is why he encouraged eating from the "tree of knowledge." Enlil wanted to keep mankind as subordinates. This caused the conflict leading to the war between those who sided with Enki and those who sided with Enlil.