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Is there any difference between Focus 10 and Focus 12 ?
I would like to get the answer especially from tose who were/are successuful with the tapes from Monroe Institute.
Any different body sensations ?
Different visuals ?
Different type/quality of OOB ?

Thanks in advance
Jan

Jan

Hi all

(Sorry for my poor English)

The people with strong alpha waves during relaxation will never experience OOB. They consist of approx. 65 % of population.  The strength of alpha doesn't allow them to reach the sufficent depth of mental and physical relaxation. They are of course relaxed but not the way they should be for extraordinary experience.

Approx. 15 % of adults shows quite strong theta and weak alpha.  These are the folks who if try are successul with all the Monroe tapes (hemis-sync) light and sound machines, floatation tanks and so forth.

I hope you are in the second group so you don't waste your money and don't get frustrated for lack of results with the tapes and mind machines.
If you are in the first group, well, just follow the hype and try and try and try.
Good luck

Jan


ps.
The other 20 % are classified into other groups.

Jan

["Researcher Toman confirmed the work of Loomis, Harvey and Hobart which showed that people with strong alpha frequencies had a poor range of entrainment to stimulation and those with little or no alpha rhythms could be entrained to a wider range of frequencies including the theta."]

OK guys, here is some solid food for thought.

"Researcher Toman confirmed the work of Loomis, Harvey and Hobart which showed that people with strong alpha frequencies had a poor range of entrainment to stimulation and those with little or no alpha rhythms could be entrained to a wider range of frequencies including the theta."

I told you.

"G. Oster published an excellent article on the effects of binaural beats (BB) in Scientific American (1973). He showed the difference between monaural beats (MB) and binaural beats. He demonstrated that binaural beats produced much smaller results  than that of monaural beats and concluded that binaural beats have almost no brainwave entrainment value but could be beneficial in diagnosing certain neurological disorders such as Parkinson's Disease."


The binaural beats are used on tapes from Monroe Institute.


"In 1995, in Northwestern University was collected the research on brainwave entrainment using photic stimulation. They found that some persons entrained to the stimulus and ....... others didn't."





Jan

Guys , remember OOB may have a personal quality that cannot be reduced to a brainwave category.

ps 1 - . I come from Europe, you may call me Janis
ps 2 - Yes, maybe the title of my original post should be more refined, but at least it grabbed your attention , he heh, you sweet Americans
ps 3 - OahnMacleod wrote something very interesting, he is so right


Jan

Excellent jokes )))
bravo !

Jan

IGuys, instead of criticizing and complaining be more positive and constructive.

Spastral wrote:
"I will start this as a new thread as this one is getting a bit long....Also, maybe people will lighten up a bit too?!?::"

There is nothing wrong with long threads I think. Quick switching from one topic to another with only 1-2 posts in threads is rather not for me. I think we are doing fine, I have GREAT interest in your responses and am having good time.

"What was the purpose of your thread?"

Read one of my my previous posts.

"Do you realise that people want to do this so badly, they would stick thier head down the toilet an hour a day if they thought it would help."

) No excrement. )
Do you think that guy like me who tried for many years doesn't belong to this group of people ?
I am one of you folks, heh heh.

Wishing you well
Jan

ps. guys, maybe instead of moaning how hurtful the title of this thread is for you, and other trivias, you give us some good "recipe" for a successul OOB.
For everyone.
But please without the "try harder" and "be positive". I am hard like a wood and have a big smile glued to my face...all the time.






Jan

Jeff, sorry to disappoint you. I don't watch "Cribs" or "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" - simply I don't have time for this.
I spent almost every evening doing my OOB exercises or listen to a hemi-sync tape.
I am still optimistic about what I am doing, and not giving up, and tomorrow will be my 6.783th attempt. Sometimes in the evening I also read what the masters and ghurus have to say about OOB.

But I love humor (and black humor too) so I will visit your website, it sounds interesting.

Jan


Jan

Hello Adrian,

BWGEN as probably "the best overall brainwave entrainment tool there" ?
Hmm. I use it for 1 month, every single day, and had not one OOB.
Should I try it for 12 months more ?

You wrote:
"Tom is also correct when he states that it is more likely to be the people that have these abilities,or latent abilities that will be drawn to it in the first place."

So what about those of us visiting this forum, or those attempting OOB for many many years, who never actually experined it for  themselves ?
It is frustrating to be drawn here, read about all the super extraordinanry astral adventures and don't have your own.  

You wrote:
"Robert clearly states that anyone can OBE with practice - and Robert, above all, will know."
This sounds cool and keeps my hope alive.

Wishing you well
Jan




Jan

Hello Tom,

You wrote:
"I am admitting that I am in the 65%. It is not a new admission, given that I have been trying since 1988. "

Well, I have been trying since 1990 ... and I am definitely in 65 % group, I have checked it on my EEG.

You wrote:
"Somehow I am doing something wrong."

In my opinion you doing fine, you need just help, the right help for those with rigid brainwaves and/or too strong alpha.


You:
"is there something that people like me might be able to do better with alpha than the other 35% can do?"

Definitely yes.
You can have strong alpha and try to strengthen theta in the same time. Your theta will PROBABLY never surpass your alpha but ... but if you have strong alpha + weaker theta (both synchronous) you can access the Zen monks meditative state, you can do self-healing or even try healing others.
After longer practice it can lead you toward astral realms in deep sense of these words. However the path is quite long.  To speed up this process you should either buy tapes with alpha freq. or get the brainwave generator and design the session yourself. Get the alpha synchronous first. Then add theta and run the two freq. simultanously. The problem with majority of tapes is: they go either directly or very quickly into theta. This is not for folks like me and you. We need a gradual approach, step by step, first higher alpha, then mid alpha, then deeper alpha and so forth.
Remember,
We are not the "fast-lane drivers" into the astral realm  as are those with stronger theta.

There are also other techniques, specifically design for those with rigid brainwaves/strong alpha. But I will not tell them as I don't want to fire all my ammo in the first exchange of fire

In my opinion you should first do some research on brainwaves, get some books, and the right tapes/eqipment and start. But again, small stapes and not a jump into very deeeep frequencies - which although are very attractive will bring you NO RESULTS for many many years.

If you have EEG just check what is your dominant frequency. Probably is about 10 herz....
Then get tape with this freq. or design your own program using this req.
Your brain will become familiar with this state and with sinchronisation. Then lower the treshold to 9.5 herz, experiment with this for a while, get familiar.
After time go to 9 herz or 8.5 - here you will experience nice body sensation or some visuals. Then add weak theta and let your brain get familiar with it.
With training you will be able to increase the theta...gradually while having alpha too.
With the very gradual strengthening of your weak theta your strong alpha will be softened and weaker. That's all you need man !

The other option is listening to the theta/delta tapes 800 times before somebody will tell you that you trying not hard enough.

Jan

Hello Adrian,

What I am expecting from you guys is some documented research, some checked results and so forth. Rather than: I don't believe you, you are destroying my hopes, you are dogmatic, and so forth. Hey, calm down a little bit. I am not a researcher, not a scientist, so no need to feel threatened by what I am saying.

Adrian wrote about "iinitial brainwave characteristics to start with, due e.g to lifestyle, and particularly sodium/pottasioum levels in the brain."
But I am not talking about initial brainwave characteristic but about something much more stronger and more stable and called The Brainware Signature.
Each of us has his own unique BRAINWAVE SIGNATURE - and this is not based on a "snapshot from the street" as Adrian described but on very long research done by Anna Wise. She is probably one of the top experts in the world on EEG, brainwaves and altered states of mind. There is her book on www.amazon.com and is FASCINATING to read
(details about brainwaves, trainings,
brainwaves during OOBs,
brainwaves during samadhi states or religion extasy,
Zen monks' brainwaves,
catholic priests' brainwaves during prayer,
brainwaves of a kid who could see ghosts
and so forth)

What I understand by saying that the 65 % (or so) of population will never experience OOB is this:  I assume that some small percentage from this group after the 300th attempt can get some results.
The rest of the folks in this group maybe will need 600 attempts before experiencing any results. So, from this point of view one can say that majority of people can experience "something".
But this is just a speculation from me. This is like saying: almost everybody can learn play piano but only very few will become real artists.

You see, the vast majority of designers/producers of the mind machines and tapes didn't bother to do any research, not even a damn "snapshot from the street." That's the problem, at least for the few of us.

Wishing you well
Jan





Jan

Hey folks, I am not expecting that everyone will agree or disagree with me.
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques.  Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.

This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.





Jan

Hey folks, I am not expecting that everyone will agree or disagree with me.
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques.  Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.

This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.





Jan

In 1970s and 1980s there was a growing popularity of mind machines, extraordinary tapes and so forth.
The designers/producers of these wonders claimed that their devices would help you with easy and effortless OOB, remote viewing, learn 100 or 500 foreign words within one session and so forth.
There were statements that such tapes and machines will be in every school so the kids will become super-students - relax in 10 minutes and 500 words learned within next 20 minutes. I was convinced and enthiusiastic.
Thirty years passed and there is less mind machines and tapes than it was before. Few schools used the tapes, few individuals exoerienced OOB and even fewer developed Remote Viewing but thousands paid their hard earned money for keeping the hope alive.
Ever wonder why it happened as it happened ?

There are folks who tried 100 or 200 times with various CDs and tapes and nothing really happened, except some mediocre sensations.  I have better sensations after beer,

I am not saying that all the tapes / mind machines are wothless, probably not.
But I wish that instead of some very general and vague claims they would say the following:
"- Out of 100 folks who listened to my tape 80 reached the theta state and therefore I named it "The Theta Tape"
But no, they are very quiet, it is safer for them from economical point of view to say: just listen to our tape one time or few times and you get "IT".
Eventually if you don't get it after 100 times you can  try 100 more times ... or buy another tape
And the best hit is to have a "feedback" on the front page from someone who was successul with such tape. Then if you are not successul you blame yourself instead of the producer. You think why he got something and not you, it must be something wrong with you, you are the failer and other crap. Just stop and think: maybe not you but this product is crap.
If they this product is so effective why they have the "feedback" from somebody signed with initials instead of the results of a research ?

(Sorry for my poor English, I hope you understand)

I wish you an easy OOBs or prolific astral sex.  
Whatever.
Jan

ps.
I am not trying to destroy your hope. Hold it tight and have luck but don't be fooled. That's all folks.




Jan

fredhedd asked:
"napolean, who are you and where did you get those figures? what study and where and who were the people that were tested? what do you have to back up what you are saying?"

I like this question.
There were some small "studies" done by several of the mind machines/tapes designers/producers.  The users asked why they don't get the colorful visual effects and the OOBE while some other users seems get it quite easy.
The explanation given was: their natural dominant frequency of brainwaves during rest was merely in alpha (between 12 and 8 herz).  When the mind machine or the tape played signal 4 herz  (for inducing OOBE)  the brain didn't respond to it at all.
So no visuals, no vibes no OOBE.

People with strong alpha freq. need a special aproach, special training to "fool" their brains, to trick it, so the alpha is weakened and then can take place the so called Frequency Following Response. With weaker alpha the brainwaves are more flexible, it easier to "pull them down" from alpha to theta and even into delta.  The flexibility of the brainwaves - and not the rigidity - is a must for everyone seriously interested in mind machines and OOBE.

I think even The Monroe Institute wrote about this problem (too strong natural alpha as obstacle for OOBE) in one of their research papers. I have to look into my papers and maybe on the next weekend I will give you some details.

The importance of weakening the alpha to make the brain more flexible and more willing to follow the binaural beat stimulation also described Mr Len Ochs. I don't remember exactly but he has his own strategy on alpha and is quite successful.

How successful in weakening the alpha are all the tapes and mind machines and each of them specifically I don't know - never saw any research.
Obviously many of them don't do it, maybe few does....
But to weaken the strong alpha is more difficult than stop smoking - is just there, period. I met many people using mind machines or tapes but only 3 of them experienced OOB.
Mayabe it impress some of you but not me )

Probably the best way to experience OOB is to spend some time in Monroe Institute in their dark, isolated chambers for many many hours. But even there less than half of the folks experience OOB, if I remember it correctly, have to check next weekend.




Jan

Adrian wrote:
"To say that people get stuck in alpha makes no sense to me, and everyone leaves their body every night in delta anyway."

Yes, we all go to sleep and are mainly in delta.
We all go through day and are mainly in beta plus other freqencies.
We all can relax, to some degree - and some people show strong alpha during relaxation while others just theta as dominant force or almost the dominant.
Just get hooked up to an EEG while listening to a tape or mind machine. You will see what I mean.

My friend has quite strong theta during rest, when he is hooked up to mind machine you can easily see how the graphs representing his brainwaves change. They are "combed" very quickly into a nice small pattern around 4 or 5 herz and he reports incredible visuals or feeling vibrations.
Myslef have strong alpha - I can spend 2 hours listening to a tape and nothing takes place. Of course, I am relaxed. But I can relax also watching a good movie - this is not a big deal. The graphs representing my brainwaves are altered a little bit but only a little bit. They usually drop from 10 herz to 8 herz. But this is not sufficient for OOBE.  You need 4 or 5 or even as low as 3 herz, or combination of these low frequencies.

We have different brain patterns, even those who are so successul with the tapes and mind machines. But did you ever notice that some people have more interesting experience with one Focus state than the other ?
Some folks prefer Focus 12 others Focus 10 etc.
These Focus levels have different combination of frequencies - if your natural freq. during rest is close to Focus 12 you will have more of it than from any other Focus level.
For good results with the higher Focus you need also the very very high frequencies, above 50 or 100 herz. This is very unusual combination of freq. for example 4 herz and 200 herz in the same time !
But these experiences are also very unusual.




Jan

Yes, Tom, you are right in 100 %, we all will eventually die and cross over to the astral realms.

Didn't you ever wonder that few folks have a super extra experiences no matter what tape or mind machine they try while others struggle for long time and either give up or continue the chase.
Those few talented folks write all the wonderful messages and descriptions of their experiences while hundreds or thousands get almost nothing but hope.  The hundreds get very excited by what they read and hear but they are poor folks - they can't experience it themselves.

I am not a scientist and I wish I am damn wrong and you are right.

Wishing you big success

Jan

ps.
Maybe next week I will try to find more info on this topic, some research papers etc., will see.  
Just keep open mind, but NOT TOO OPEN, otherwise you will be fooled by all the hype in advertising and self-advertising.

Jan