Messages

you know what makes me laugh?

how ignorant people like you on this forum are. you know nothing about Islam. you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.



go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

[same]

Hi Anelie

Thanks for taking the time to explain Islam.  I must say you sound quite supportive of Islam and the Prophet, and your note above seems to justify the oppression of women in muslim and Indian cultures.

Personally, it doesn't matter how many cutlures or religions share the same values, or who issued the orders, or what an ancient holy book says, it is unfair, unacceptable, inhuman and unethical to treat anyone less than others on the basis of gender (or sexual orientation or race).

To quote from your note:
"yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy."

Looking after someone does not reserve the right to dominate the person. And if anyone believes that happiness is being taken care of by someone who dominates them, then the person needs to do some growing up.

Again thanks for your post, but I really doubt you can convince anyone on this forum that Islam is a fair and simple religion as you painted it above.  Certainly not me.

Good luck with whatever you decide to follow.  We all have free will.

Venus

The taking care of the women is dominating them. This isnt a matter of treating "less" anyone. The reality is, there are people in authority and those who are under that authority. The one who is charged with authority in the family is the man. The very fact he takes care of the woman necesitates that he has authority over her. She is no "less" a person.

"the man is not like the woman." this is a reality accepted by common sense, sociology, religion, and biology. Men and women are different, therefore if they were to be treated the same legally, would be unjust. That is why the woman is required to wear the hijab(veil) and the man is not. That is why the woman is recommended to play a more homely role, and the man is not. That is why the man is required to provide for his wife, whereas the opposite is not (required.)

Why would god make some people homosexual and forbid it? That, I never understood and never will understand.

even if you dont understand it you should sitll accept it. Do you know, or does God? God created the Tree that He forbade Adam and Eve to eat from.

If it is really the case that there are people that are "born" homosexuals t hen it is a test from God.

Usaama, most of your answers are pretty clear, but I'm not entirely sure I understand your response to question 1. What I was asking is whether you believe in a common level of respect- in other words, even though I understand that you have more respect for Muslims, do you believe that there is still some common level of respect that EVERYONE gets? e.g., if the respect scale ranked from 1-10, what level of respect would you grant ALL people and what additional respect would you grant Muslims?

By the way, I forgot to mention- if anyone does not want to answer any of these questions, feel free to omit them.

5 for all

1.) Do you believe that there is a common level of respect that should be given to all people?

No, I respect Muslims more than I respect non-Muslims.

4.) Do you believe that everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong? If not, do you believe that it is something that is learned or something that can be taught?

Everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong. However, the sense isn't godly, so therefore is not a source of legislation.

5.) Do you believe that ritualistic innebriation (the use of mind-altering substances, including, but not limited to, alcohol and tobacco) is acceptable for the acquisition of spiritual knowledge when used with respect and in conjunction with meditation and prayer?

No, all mind-altering substances are forbidden in Islam.

6.) Do you believe that your personal happiness is important?

Of course! Out ultimate personal happiness however, lies in the eternal paradise that God promises the believers. This is the ultimate success.

7.) Do you believe that there can be love between a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman?

Allah states in His Noble Book, the Qur'an(translation of meaning):

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect." [Surah Rum 30:21]

Allah places love (muwadda) and mercy (rahma) between the man and the wife as a sign.

As for man on man love, or woman and woman love,  then this is a perversion of the natural order of things.

8.) Do you believe that both men and women should be treated equally?

9.) Do you believe that both men and women should be acknowledged for their biological differences? Should this affect their civil rights?

Legislation is what Allah and His Messenger have legislated. Allah has decreed that men are the gaurdians and protectors of women, and that a woman should obey her husband. the rights of men and women respectively should be derived from Islamic legislation.

10.) How do you define what a god is? Do you believe in one god or many? Why?

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

And there is none like unto Him.  "[Qur'an 112]

Allah! there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [Qur'an 2:225]

11.) Do you believe that wisdom comes from experience?

Allah grants wisdom to whom He wishes.

15.) What forms of expression do you feel are acceptable? What do you believe is okay to express? Do you believe it is wrong to express certain ideas? Which, if any?

It's to openly deny God or His signs. It's wrong to say "there is no God". It's wrong to mock God or any of His prophets.  It's wrong to utter evil in public. Expressing disdain towards parents is unacceptable as well.

OSAMA on knowingly false: Secondly, the prophet sws married aysha when she was a woman, after she hit puberty. (every muslim knows he married Aysha at 6 and had sex with her to consumate the marrige at 9, hardly a woman.)

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2610353

Nearly half of African-American girls start showing signs of puberty by 8 years old, and some American girls are developing as young as 5, even 4 years old, experts say.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/08/10/girls_hitting_puberty_at_younger__amp_younger_ages_experts_say_exposure_to_plastics_and_insecticid.htm

    *

      Over 27 percent of African-American girls, and 6.7 percent of white girls showed signs of puberty including breast or pubic hair development by the age of 7.
    *

      By the age of 8, 48.3 percent of African-American girls and 14.7 percent of white girls had one or both of these characteristics.
    *

      By the age of 3, 1 percent of whites and 3 percent of African-Americans had such characteristics.

may God reward you shams for your input.

As for you ambientsound, you have some issues. i post to inform about Islam, not to be your amigo.

a Muslim and a non-Muslim can sit down and talk, that doesnt mean, however, that a Muslim will give up what he believes. We Muslims have real, pure, knowledge. Knowledge from Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Never will we bely it.
Everything that the Prophet Muhamma d(peace and blessings of God be upon him) informed of is certain knowledge, knowledge that carries no doubt in it, and is outside the realm of speculation.


you also asked me if i believe Jesus is my savior. I dont beleive that. God is my savior and I have no other.

If God is omni benevolent and all-powerful, why is there evil and suffering?

If God is omnipotent (all-powerful, able to do anything), omni- benevolent (all loving) and omniscient (all knowing).

The problem is this: our world contains vast amounts of suffering, much of which seems either entirely unnecessary or unnecessarily severe. Although some of this is the result of evil human action, and thus may be seen as an inevitable consequence of human free will, much is not. Plagues floods and famines and is not all the result of human action. Even the idea that human free will explains the existence of much suffering is hard to accept, since God, if all-powerful, could He not have limited our capacity to harm others?

So why is there all this suffering? If God cannot prevent it, it would seem he is not all-powerful. If God does not want to stop it, it would seem he is not all loving. If God does not know about it, he cannot be all knowing.

"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much." [Qur'an 42:30 translation of meaning]

"Truly! Allah wrongs not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves." [Qur'an 10:44 translation of meaning]


"No son of Adam is pricked by a thorn, nor does he slip, nor does he suffer by swelling, except for sins, and that which is overlooked for him is far more."

Resorting to insults, are we, Usaama? How spiritually evolved. I see a pattern here, and it's getting old fast.

Actually, I think the clip has a everything to do with Islam- more specifically, the greater Jihad- and once again you haven't backed up your statement. The woman was holding up the Koran and came to apologize, and what did her fellow Muslims do? They ignored their own alleged religious convictions, and decided that, despite the fact that she herself was innocent, since she was related to the offender, they would rape her. The courts then allowed the men to go free, even though they were initially sentenced. That is not spiritually evolved.

Conveniently ignoring my previous responses, Usaama? 14 replies have been posted. Are you going to make a valid point anytime soon or are you just here to insult people who disagree with your delusions?

you live delusions and your existence is an insult.

thank God for verbal abuse to use on people like you.

You explain it better than me. Thanks, and you are right. I would like to simply ask what Islam teaches on various subjects. Is that too much to ask. .

You also say that Muhammed was the perfect man so you should try to emulate his way of life, this is why the Hadith is so important, they are samples of how he lived.

How about beheading those who leave your religion?

How about marrying a 6 year old and consummating the marriage at 9.?

How about killing the Kaffir to spread Islam.?

Do tell if I have misunderstood these things or defend these issues, so I can embrace your religion.

Okay Mr. MustardDung,

firstly, if you want to know what Islam teaches, then why dont you ask about its dogma? The dogmatic part, the belief part, is the main issue that separates Islam from other faiths, not issues of legality. Rarely does it cross my mind, or the minds of other Muslims, to kill someone if he left the religion, or to marry someone young, or to kill "The kaafir".

Regarding the completely irrelavant issues you brought up, firstly, no where does Islam say to behead those who leave it. Secondly, the prophet sws married aysha when she was a woman, after she hit puberty. Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with fighting to uplift the Truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0NQCGRqYI

I see more evidence of spiritual evolution in my dog.

that has nothign to do with Islam, you worthless dog.

l

Here's an idea:

Usaama gets to quote from his scriptures, BUT.....

for EACH AND EVERY quote, he must provide empirical, objective historical evidence to back up the quotation.



It is the reasoning behind the scriptures that is being questioned, am I correct? For example, why does a man get to beat his wife? What effects has this had on women psychologically and socially in predominantly Islamic societies? What psychological and social effects would beating your wife have on the women of other cultures and religions in the world?

Get used to it, Usaama. People are going to ask the hard questions about Islam based on what they have heard. You've got to show them something concrete. If you can't, you're out of luck, and if this seems consistent in similar arguments, you might want to re-examine Islam. In order to grow and evolve spiritually, one must be willing to admit when they are wrong. The best way to rid yourself of hostility from others is to show them how and why Islam is not what they think it is. Give them the objective, empirical information that all the world agrees upon.

you need to get used to the fact that Ill quote the Qur'an by itself, because it is self-evident, and an explanation for all things.

The entire world's opinion does not weigh against the Word of Allah.

"And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All­Hearer, the All­Knower.

وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقاً وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ

Verily, your Lord! It is He Who knows best who strays from His Way, and He knows best the rightly guided ones.
إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ
" [Qur'an 6:115-117]

In order to grow and evolve spiritually, you need to admit that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger. If you dont, then all your spiritual evolution is in vain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_o7QnKAmUs&feature=related

According to the rules of argumentation I do not have to justify asking a question. My question is my right. Instead of turning the burden of proof on me please answer the question and support your beliefs. Whether I am jealous or not is a non issue.

Please watch this clip. I can assure you I am not jealous of someone having 4 wives, or having the freedom to marry children. To me this is not freedom.

I am trying to avoid the tedious cycle of circular arguments, so commonly used by fundamentalists.

Now on to the actual subject matter , please explain........

Isn't interesting how in your rules you do not hav eto justify  asking a question, yet, in your mind, I have to justify quoting the Qur'an, Allah's Word that He revealed through the Angel Gabriel from above the Seven Heavens.

My question to you mustardseed, is

1) Why do you forbid the quoting of the Koran for a Muslim to support his beliefs with? Are you afraid of beliefs of the Muslim, and the Qur'an's self-evident nature?

2) Why are those issues pressing to you? Are you personally hurt by my feelings of Muslim superiority? Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death? Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife? Are you personally hurt that a Muslim man is respected and obeyed by his wife, as opposed to the utter disrespect of a woman to his husband that is present in kaafir societies?

oh yeah, and if you want to debate me , im not afraid to debate. however, i dont respond to people who talk like fools.

abu-usaama@hotmail.com

I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy.  Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great,  from some other soap box.

Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert.

Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) was the last prophet, not the Mahdi.

Yeah, I got a laugh out of it too, but I feel that I may have went too far with that one, so I apologize to Usaama, even if he would not do the same for me were our places switched.

Usaama should believe whatever he wants to believe, because I believe people in general should, even if I disagree with their beliefs. I do wish he would acknowledge that Christianity's scriptures, which are older than the Quaran, indicate that HE will also be burning in hell for not believing in Jesus. I guess you and I better learn to get along, Usaama. We might be roommates in hell.

I believe in Jesus.

I've been staying away from this convo primarily because I like to try to understand other religions and don't really enjoy 'other people's religion bashing', but I want to ask a question that struck me here.

Usama, in the past few paragraphs  it seems you are saying that western world, or anyone who is not Muslim are beneath you because we don't necessarily follow the Quran?
Sounds like you don't think we deserve respect.  Is this the case?

respect

noun
1.    (usually preceded by 'in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect"
2.    the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" [syn: esteem] [ant: disesteem]
3.    an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him" [ant: disrespect]
4.    a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean" [syn: deference]
5.    behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes" [syn: obedience]
6.    a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect" [syn: regard]
7.    courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy" [syn: deference]


as for honouring you, that is impermissible. all honour belongs to God, His Messenger, and the believers.

im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.

As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.

You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......

.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear

I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.

This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.

I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.

This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.

All that points to a lack of civility.

إِنَّمَا يَفْتَرِي الْكَذِبَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَأُوْلـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ
It is only those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars. [16:105]

You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.

Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.

15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).

Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.

This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.

Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith

(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.

(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)

(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.

I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.

I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in  confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.

The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.

Civilized.................I think not

Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion

pa·thet·ic   –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight. 
2. affecting or moving the feelings. 
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings. 
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a  treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.

Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.

Usaama, what is secularism? I am not sure I understand your definition of this word.

I believe it is important for people to live in a FREE society where they agree to follow certain rules, laws, and codes. We have to go on what we have in common, what we are collectively willing to tolerate, and what we are not. Here in America, we elect people who are good at solving issues that we collectively face. We elect these people to help us come to a decision about what method should be used to deal with a problem such as a natural disaster, economic problems, what to do if our country is attacked, etc. It is not like being ruled by a monarch, whose word is law. I think this is where misunderstandings are found with America to the Islamic people.

Our government is divided into the federal level, the state level, the county level, and the municipal level. This is to ensure that groups of people can better customize laws for their region and community, where they may have distinguishing preferences or beliefs that set them apart from the rest of the state or country. it is really a brilliant system, if you examine it. The only issue lately is that we have given the federal government more power than it really should have. As you may have read on our dollar bill, "In God we trust," and in our Pledge of Allegiance, you may recall the phrase "One nation, under God." Thus, Islam cannot claim that the United States is enslaved in this way. Since Islamic nations also use monetary systems to deal with trade and exchange, it is not free by MY own definition either.

We all pay our taxes, even though we don't want to. We do it because we recognize that they go to a greater good, that the money is being used to benefit everyone. That is not to say that government is without corruption, as I'm sure you are aware. I am simply pointing out that taxes fund our schools, our police officers, the maintenance of roads and highways, etc. EVERYONE uses some combination of these services, and is therefore responsible for helping out with them.

As for freedom, I do not see how servitude (as opposed to slavery) causes one to be without freedom. If I am serving the people around me, it's because I wish to improve their situation in some way, not because I've got somebody with a whip cracking at my back. If I free myself from serving my fellow man to serve Allah, then how am I free? I'm just replacing one party I am serving with another. Not only that, but I am serving one instead of many. It is no different than moving from one nation to another (Islam is a nation, is it not?). Thus, I fail to see how freedom remains freedom in the Islamic faith. It is not in the nature of a human being to worship a god that someone is trying to force them to believe in. Those who do convert are just lying to their oppressors to stay alive. I am certain that they continue their original religious practices in the privacy of their own homes- unless Muslim barbarians come barging in every now and then just to check on them.

By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.

I very strongly believe that one should contribute as often as possible to the well-being of their community. Now, here is a little secret very few people realize: When you are spreading the good energy and deeds to others, be sure to include yourself. That way, everyone, including you, benefits, and nobody is left worrying about you. It is a greater service to do this than to only serve others.

There is a difference between servitude and slavery. Slavery is what happens when someone makes demands of another, without offering something in return, and threatens them in some way, either by jeopardizing their health or that of their loved ones (well well, sounds a bit like terrorism, doesn't it?). Terrorism is attempted slavery. They kill innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems, and they refuse to understand that free will is SACRED, even in their religion. They do not reason, they kill and make demands. THAT is not civilized behavior.

As for polytheists, I know a couple and they are decent people. I do not abhor them, as I see no logic in doing so. I fraternize with and befriend those who practice magic, Druids, Sages, Witches and Wizards alike. I am more likely to befriend these kinds of people than a Southern Baptist priest or a Mormon priest. I abhor authoritarian religion. If two of my friends cannot get along with each other, I make sure that I do not put them in each others' company and both remain my friends.

Aren't Muslims polygamists in the afterlife? And who ever said the 72 virgins were women? You can't get a disease in heaven.

"God created women for us  to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden."

I strongly disagree with this statement, first because homosexuality is not perverse (because that is a subjective viewpoint), and second because it does not answer my original question as to why women are not treated as equals. They have feelings, just like men, and in America, they make better students and sometimes even better leaders. They are often delicate and beautiful, sensitive, and they are happiest when they are free. I speak from first-hand observation. A woman who is free is more likely to tell you the truth and be with you because she wants to be. Women want a guy who is going to respect them and has standards, not treat them like a subordinate. I have a hard time believing that any woman in  her right mind would convert to Islam, especially since she might have to endure genital mutilation. What's wrong with a woman experiencing pleasure during sex? What is the purpose of her genitalia, then, if God says "snip-snip?" Doesn't that imply that Allah is imperfect in his ability to create? Or does he just hate women so much that he creates them with this part of their body so that they can endure the agony of having it removed later on?

Here in America, women and men date each other, and have equal say in the relationship. This gives more likelihood that we will find the person who gets along with us best. The relationship is not based on some mandate that someone scribbled onto paper, it is based on the connections of the mind, body, and spirit. I seek a woman to connect with on a multitude of levels.

Is there any link between the women-converts and the country of Iran? And how do I know that the converts aren't converting because they were threatened?


Usaama, have you ever read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War?" It offers philosophies on combat. You should also look at " The Book of Five Rings," written by the legendary Japanese sword master, Musashi. It may give you a better understanding of Japan's combat mentality.

I have studied seven martial arts, some of which were so brutal I could not make the connections myself of what move to do next. But I understand now why it is necessary to know such tactics. In a violent confrontation, there is no time to think. One must act quickly and waste as little time and energy as possible when incapacitating their attacker (all honorable martial arts practice and preach never throwing the first strike, so if there is violence, it does not begin with us, it ends with us). The Chinese word "Wushu" actually translates to "the art of stopping a fight."

It was Japan that attacked America in WWII, absolutely unprovoked. The atom bomb was used for two reasons: first, to show Nazi Germany that we beat them to the development of it so that they would be far more likely to surrender, and second, so that Japan would surrender. We warned them in advance and they did nothing. They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped, remember that. We weren't out to rule over their country, we just wanted them to leave us alone and all other methods failed. Also remember the Samurai mentality of Japanese warriors. Like Islam's suicide bombers, they would crash their planes into American warships and other targets.

By a martial artist's standpoint, the Japanese delivered the first blow, and America the final blow.

I am by no means suggesting that the detonation of the atom bomb was not a horribly tragic event, but given the circumstances at the time, it was necessary.


As for other atrocities committed in America that can be found elsewhere, go visit South America and Mexico, China, Japan, Russia, just about any nation on the African continent, and Australia. Oh, let's not forget North Korea, where they FORCE Christianity on their citizens, and Iran, which will not allow women U.S. citizens to leave without their husband's permission, if the husband is an Iranian citizen (there was a movie made about this, called "Not without my daughter," and I'm sure you can find it, or parts of it, on Youtube somewhere, if you care to watch).

When it comes to the truth, there are only two things to observe, my friend: Cause and effect. I should state here that it is folly for ANY human being to even begin to say that they understand God. You don't understand God and neither do I, so why should we allow another human being to tell us about God? Just because it's in a book that someone claims to be holy doesn't make it true. I challenge you with one final question: Where is the historical evidence that Muhammed ever moved a mountain? (you may not use your book as a source unless it provides viable dates and references).

I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.

I still maintain that organized religion is a control mechanism used by the elite to manipulate the masses. Its purpose is to simply make sure that the common people of the world never unite. If Islam maintains its attitude toward infidels, then organized religion will have done what it was invented to do.

First of all, what I mean by secularism is a seperation of religion from state.  Religion encompasses every aspect of life: to God belongs everything in the heavens in the earth, not just churches, cynagogues or masjids. the seperation of religion from law, from  society, from state, is an insult to God's Sovereignty.

We dont have these sort of misunderstanding about America. I personally had a public american education my whole life and understand the system and the ideas behind it. Whether you avoid the question or not, the reality is America is about the rule of the people. The rule of God is not a valid consideration in the system's view.


The reality of such a system, is that it is enslaved to men's whims and desires. It doesnt matter if this is a matter of "majority", or "minority", it is still a criminal system.

Regarding your statement about freedom, the difference is, that in Islam we are going from obeying one that is imperfect(man) to the One that is perfect. And if you didnt pay attention to what I wrote earlier, we dont force people to believe.

you said:

By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.

It's not anarachy because we believe in a Law that is to be followed. The Law that is to be followed however, is not man-made law, but the Law that God legislates and lays down. This(Law) is manifested in the Qur'an and what has been related through the lips of His Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).  The rulers and people entrusted with authority are entrusted to implement God's Law.

First of all, genital mutilation is a cultural practice, not an Islamic practice. No woman do I know of, outside of Africa, has ever had to fear genital mutilation succeeding conversion to Islam. It's just an absolutely ridiculous misconception, and incorrect bias.

Secondly, women are treated as equals in Islam. Men and women are treated in Islam according to the specific natures. The Qur'an says, "and the male is not like the female." As much as you want to treat people the "same", the reality is, men and women are not the same: biologically, emotionally or spiritually. They have their unique needs and rights. Indeed, Islam has always honoured women, to the extent that an entire chapter in the Qur'an is named "Women", due to it's main subject being women's rights and treatment.

Your tone and words used shows that you know very little about Islam, and that your mind is full of nonsense thoughts regarding it. It almost feels degrading to myself to even respond to your nonsense, but I will try to bear with it for now.

Women arent converting because they are threatened. I have known women myself who have converted,a nd love Islam because of the way it honours women, and because of its spiritual fulfillment. But you probably wont believe me; that would  be your loss though.

regarding sun tzus art of war, i have read it.

My friend is Japanese and he is a direct descendant of Samurai. I showed him what you wrote in the next paragraph. He said that first of all no White European or Westerner can understand the Japanese Spirit. Secondly, Wushu in Chinese or Bujutsu in Japanese simply means martial-arts. It doesn't mean "art of stopping a fight."

The fact that you are trying to justify the atomic bombs over heroshima and nagasaki shows how much of imbisal you are.

Firstly, Japan did not attack America unprovoked.  This is a flat-out falsehood. This almost as ridiculosu that the 9/11 attacks were unprovoked. Only one who didnt know the political situation and what the united states was doing would say such a thing.

The united states halted all of Japan's monetary assets and froze their oil supply before Pearl Harbor.. Any country with self-respect wouldnt take such actions lying down.

Secondly, Japan did surrender to the U.S. The United States, however, wanted unconditional surrender.


Thirdly, what fault is the Japanese children? Killing women and children to force a government to surrender is worse than any terrorism that Bin Laden has been involved in.

It wasnt a necesity. With that logic, It was just as much a necesity for the Nazis to round up jews and let them die in concentration camps, as they saw the Jews as enemies and waging a covert war against them. Or how about 9/11? Al-Qaida argues that 9/11 was a necesity, because of America's sanctions on iraq tha tkilled half a million children.

I know I dont understand God. Islam is about recognizing that one doesnt understand God. He is not like anything, He has no co-equal and is uncomparable to anything. However, we know that we must submit ourselves to Him and follow what He reveals. 

About your "challenge", i know my Book is authentic and I would never agree to not using my Book as evidences, because the Qur'an is the ultimate evidence, the ultimate authority. For you to disrespect my Book like that shows that you are both ignorant, ungrateful, and an imbissal.

I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.

One narration of the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) should be sufficient for your statement:

"Had this world been worth the weight of the wing of  a mosquito, Allah would not give the kaafir(disbeliever)a sip of water."

this world in respect to the Hereafter is like a drop in respect to the oceans.

Enjoy your good things in this life, for eternal Hellfire awaits those who disbelieve.


As for your next statement, my response is: bahaism is an organized religion,but its precepts revolve around the unity of mankind and making no distinction between people.

well thank you Osama, your  comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".

For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.

To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No  further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.

It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.


But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.

And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds

Thankyou

well, good luck with your pathetic existence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related

This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.

its dumb.

You make valid points, Mustardseed. Freedom of speech is one thing I cherish. I think it is uncivilized of our government to threaten our freedoms with stupid laws, like what Bush has done. However, I think it is civilized to defend freedom.

I know the examples of which you speak, and Iran and Afghanistan are most guilty of these things. Still, it would be foolish of me to say that I know anything about Islamic culture, since I lack experience living amongst Muslims. Therefore, I must ask Osama a few questions:

How does the nation of Islam define love?

How does the nation of Islam define freedom, and how does it regard freedom? Is it important? Why or why not?

What are the effects of fear-based reactions/decisions versus love-based reactions/decisions? How do these emotions affect people?

Why does the Nation of Islam believe homosexuality is wrong? Could there, perhaps, be a rational explanation for this, such as the prevention of spreading STDs, rather than homosexuality being an abomination? My best friends are bisexual and they are more honorable than most.

Why aren't women, the other half of humanity, treated as equals? Do you think any free-thinking woman would ever convert herself to Islam?





Mustardseed is right about women in America. They are not afraid to go out alone at night. He is also right about women in Islam. I saw live footage of the day when America liberated Afghanistan from Taliban rule. The women were so ecstatic they looked like teens at a rock concert.

One other thing I would like to say to Usaama-

All of the examples of American atrocities can be found in any culture around the world. What do you believe makes Western societies worse than other cultures?

It is a constant battle to retain one's freedom. Once you are free from having to battle others, like enemies on a conquest, you are free to battle yourself. The battle that counts most is the one that is fought within.

I rather disagree with organized religion in general. I think it causes more problems than it solves. There are too many mistakes with translations, inaccurate historical references, books that have been taken out/put in by unscrupulous tyrants, etc. along with people who interpret the texts literally and out of their historical contexts. Let's not forget that there are a few versions of the Quaran as there are with the Bible. Too many wars have been fought over religion, even between different sects of the same religion. It is ridiculous and that is why no Muslim will ever see me convert to Islam, nor will Christianity see me a Christian, nor Judaism see me as a Jew. I will not even join Hindu or Buddhism.

I follow my heart and I learn from all paths, but I forge my own.

Secularism is the disease that i believe is most abhorent.

there are different types of love according to the teachings of Islam.

one type is the kind the God places between a husband and his wife:

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. [Qur'an 30:21 interpretation of meaning]

another kind is the relationship of love between God and His servants. One of God's names is Al-Wudood which means "The Most Loving"

"And He is Oft-Forgiving, full of love (Al-Wudood)" [Qur'an 85:14]

additionally a believer is to love God more than anything else.


As for love for non-believers, then this issue may fall into two categories.

1) natural love

2) honourable abhorrance.

one may love a person out of one's concern for them and natural instincts, but one must abhor them for their beliefs if they are polytheistic.


As for freedom, this particular quote from Sayyid Qutb's (May God have mercy on him) work, Milestones (http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_4.asp)
should be sufficient:

"This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. In the words of the Qur'an:

"He alone is God in the heavens and in the earth." (43:84)

"The command belongs to God alone. He commands you not to worship anyone except Him. This is the right way of life." (12: 40)

"Say: O People of the Book, come to what is common between us: that we will not worship anyone except God, and will not associate anything with Him, and will not take lords from among ourselves besides God; and if they turn away then tell them to bear witness that we are those who have submitted to God." (2: 64)

The way to establish God's rule on earth is not that some consecrated people - the priests - be given the authority to rule, as was the case with the rule of the Church, nor that some spokesmen of God become rulers, as is the case in a 'theocracy'. To establish God's rule means that His laws be enforced and that the final decision in all affairs be according to these laws.
"

As for the idea of freedom of religion:

"It is not the intention of Islam to force its beliefs on people, but Islam is not merely 'belief'. As we have pointed out, Islam is a declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men. Thus it strives from the beginning to abolish all those systems and governments which are based on the rule of man over men and the servitude of one human being to another. When Islam releases people from this political pressure and presents to them its spiritual message, appealing to their reason, it gives them complete freedom to accept or not to accept its beliefs. However, this freedom does not mean that they can make their desires their gods, or that they can choose to remain in the servitude of other human beings, making some men lords over others. Whatever system is to be established in the world ought to be on the authority of God, deriving its laws from Him alone. Then every individual is free, under the protection of this universal system, to adopt any belief he wishes to adopt. This is the only way in which 'the religion' can be purified for God alone. The word 'religion' includes more than belief; 'religion' actually means a way of life, and in Islam this is based on belief. But in an Islamic system there is room for all kinds of people to follow their own beliefs, while obeying the laws of the country which are themselves based on the Divine authority."

Our problem with "secularism" and western forms of "democracy" is that they are not truly free systems. A system in which man is the one obeyed is a system of enslavement. A system in which the unfathomable God is obeyed alone, is a free system. Capitalism is just another manifestation of slavery to wealth, men, and corporations, in that such can legislate how they please,  barring people from following God alone.


Worship in Islam is seen as consisting of three parts in balance: love, hope, and fear. if one's worship is completely based on love, without hope or fear, then this is inadequate. and if ones worship is completely based on hope (for God's reward[paradise]), without love or fear, then this is inadequate. and of worship is solely based on fear(of God's punishment), without love or hope, then this inadequate.

Homosexuality is an abomination. it goes against the natural ordination that God has decreed of human beings. STD's is a result of illicit sexual behavior, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained:

Abdullaah bin 'Umar may Allaah be pleased with him reported that: "The Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) approached us once and said: "It is never that immorality (i.e. adultery, fornication and sodomy) prevails in a people to the extent that they do it openly, except that there will appear in them diseases that were unknown to their predecessors."" [Al-Haakim]

this is how it has occurred. AID's is a fairly recent disease.

However, the absence of diseases does not mean the absence of sinfulness for the deed (homosexuality [or fornication]). Homosexuality, in particular, is seen as an perversion. A mention of the story of Lot in the Qur'an demonstrates this:

"The prople of Lout (Lot) (those dwelt in the towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers.

When their brother Lout (Lot) said to them: "Will you not fear Allah and obey Him?

"Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you.

"So fear Allah, keep your duty to Him, and obey me.

"No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message ), my reward is only from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

"Go you in unto the males of mankind,

"And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!"

[26:160-165]

God created women for us  to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden.



The majority of converts to Islam in the 20th/21st century are women.


The media shows you some, yet hides most.


All the examples of American atrocities can NOT be found in every culture around the world. America is the only country to have ever used atomic bombs on people (heroshima and nagasaki). America firebombed tokyo , used flamethrowers in war. Muslim atrocities have never ever matched with atrocities attributed to America.

I think you should not stroke your paint too far. you should consider Islam. Your biases are really just that, biases.

Say: "Verily, Allah's Guidance is the only guidance, and we have been commanded to submit (ourselves) to the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists); [Qur'an 6:71]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Consider the American system of capitalism. It is a widely accepted fact that the middle class is disappearing as the economy worsens. The middle class gets no assistance from the government. Those who are considered middle class struggle. They make too much to qualify for government assistance and too little to set any of their earnings aside. The government has a lot more control over the poor that it assists. The rich are the ones calling the shots, and there are fewer and fewer of them all the time, and those who remain are getting more and more power.

Consider the crippling effect that corporate America has had on our legal system. Why does our health system require expensive insurance from companies who may at any time choose not to pay for one's cancer treatments or vitally important operations? Why do we pay house insurance, car insurance, medical and dental insurance, put money away for retirement, federal and state income taxes, social security (which is failing miserably, by the way), soaring gas prices, electric, water, and oil? And on top of that, people pay for cable TV, internet, phones, and other services, IF they can even afford them.

Is it not obvious that our capitalist system benefits from people who pile on their responsibilities to someone else? This is what creates jobs, after all- supply and demand.

After 9/11, I was sickened by how quickly corporations were making money off of peoples' patriotism fad. Our country, said to be civilized by some, is without morals, and what "words of wisdom" are spoken have only face value, because those who speak them really have selfish intentions of gaining positions of power. Their philosophy is that the masses are cattle to be herded and manipulated. I draw this conclusion from my own personal observations of daily life here.

The greenhouse gas crisis is going to be VERY profitable for those oil tycoons. They have the money to buy out every solar field, wind farm, and water turbine in the country, if they wanted to, and they will charge a lot of money for their services. This will give them great leverage in the legislative decisions made in Washington DC.

So what does all this mean? It means capitalism is slavery, which is uncivilized. I would rather live in a cave and do my own hunting, farming, and gathering. Of course, doing that in this country is illegal, as all buildings and shelters legally require electricity and running water.

So while I do not disagree that there are problems and issues in the Islamic world, I will never call America a civilized country.

Bravo!