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Hello. Allow me to introduce myself primarily: I am Chase. I have not posted many times on this site but read it frequently. I recently (over the past few months) have been meeting with some people who are in The Gurdjieff Work. This could be a very long story. In an attempt to be succinct...I will be succinct. I was frightened by them. I asked a million questions and felt like none of them were answered. These were questions I would ask of any religion/ philosophy that ws new to me and that was trying to get me to "work" with them. They had a very secretive, clandestine type approach. They questioned me a lot, and mentioned a probationary group that I would have to commit 6 months to before I could decide if it was for me or not. I asked what would happen if I bailed prior to 6mos.-- they did not answer directly and sortof ran around the question and said that since I asked the question...it was obvious I was not ready to take a sincere spiritual step...and work with them. To Gurdjieff's credit- he has a lot of very interesting ideas in his books and such. He's def a rebel. The guy I was meeting with 2x a month said he could have a concious obe at will...right there at Starbux he said he could do it if he wished. And this was due to the transformative work he indulged in with Gurdjieff's work.

My question: Who are these people? Are they safe? Are they a cult? Are they satanists? Are they capable of dangerous activites? Please if you know anything about them...let me know.

Kodemaster started a topic that had to do with how we feel about talking about OBE's with others. Some felt shy...some were more open with their friends, families..etc. In my responding to that topic...I became very curious as to others feelings on a similar question:

OBE (and related experiences) are very beautiful, spiritual, freeing opportunities to explore an end of this world that we did not know was possible (before we OBE'd). Some may say its proof of sorts as to the potentials of the mind, the spirit, death, etc. I think we all agree it has its benefits spiritually. It almost seems like everyone should at least know about this potential phenomena. There are lotsa people out there, especially in America who would write this off as fantasy. Is it our responsibility (since we are the ones having, discussing, and learning about these) to communicate this to...well...everyone we can? I do not mean to suggest we begin going door to door, or become obnoxious in our plight, but it seems we should try to overcome potential stigma and try and let our friends...families...communities... world know about the beauty that is in fact very real. Creative, effective, tactful, UP TO DATE communication would obviously be imperative. Even Mr. Bruce in his books tends to try and not be very esoteric in his writing, and tries to be modern...perhaps so it is received better, and more clearly.

I guess I just feel that the ability to have these experiences is profound and a gift from our higher selves (whatever you choose to call it). And in spite of the flack we may encounter in communicating these type subjects to others...I feel it is incumbent on us to spread the love, and energy to others. What they do with a well communicated, thought out presentation of OBE's, etc...is up to them...but it is our job to at least  inject the energy of possibility into them, and let it float around a bit.

Does anyone agree/ disagree with this?

lotsa love
sly

Hi. This is my 1st post. I first must say that I have been reading a while and have read many posts. It feels like there are a lot of genuine, caring, helpful people in this forum. Its good to be able to communicate our challenges to each other. Thanx in advance for the advice, and thoughts...

So here is where I am in my OBE progress. I have been reading and studying on it for about a year. I am currently reading Astral Dynamics, and trying to do everything it says. I have had what I think are OBE's. My thing is this: I have never had one while actually sitting down and trying. It seems as if I fall asleep all the time. All of the experiences that I have had have been like this: I intend on having OBE...but I soon drift off to sleep...I get into a deep dreamy kinda mode...I realize I am dreaming so I use this opportunity to project...and sort of just say "hey..I am gonna induce the infamous vibrations..."- they come...I become very concious of my situation (but still kinda feel asleep- at least I know I am not awake- is this normal?)...I get imagery...I can see my room and stuff through my eyes, but my eyes are shut...I sit up and outta my body. OK...the first few times...at this point I flip out and get all excited and "wake up", "go back to physical", and want to call all my friends and tell them this stuff actually is real! lol...now, after I guess probably 6 of these...I have this very depressing thing happen to me: I get out...I walk/float/whatever about 15-20 feet and sort "fall" or "float" or crash into the ground and then BOOM...back to physical...and awake fully. I cuss, and cry that there goes another opportunity to learn the secrets of the universe down the drain.

So my questions: 1. Is this a real OBE (i.e. the lucid dream approach that I guess I am using) and the same experience as when you just relax, energize, trance out, vibrate...and leave? Or is this a less "potent" OBE...one that is more a dream? I really do not want to have to rely on becoming lucid...its too infrequent- I want Control...

2. How do I keep from nosediving into the floor? I really want to keep going and explore...

Again...thanx so much for reading, and helping. I very much look forward to becoming a frequent reader/ writer on this board.

lotsa love
sly                

-"Twilight is oh so near...a million miles between us dear...just close your eyes...and meet me on the Astral Plane..."  - Divided by Zero

Black box--
I see what you are saying regarding the "cagey" approach. I understand that the Fourth Way people believe that disseminating the "truths" they have discovered leads to a distortion of the truth. But doesn't that sortof imply that they are a bit insecure with what they call the TRUTH. I mean THE TRUTH can not be distorted can it? All of the major spiritual icons of human history - once they found their TRUTH - longed for its dissemination with no fear of distortion. Yes...I agree distortion happens. But there will inevitably be a surviving mainline of THE TRUTH that will exist no?

Look...as I am typing this I am seeing that this can be a debate that could go on for a while both ways. BOTTOM LINE for me is that I am a seeker of THE TRUTH. One of the major reasons I am apprehensive to "devote" 6 mos. to the Gurdjieff people (as they requested me to do) is that I have no idea what they believe. And one clear reason that they could argue that maintaining a secretive approach is of lynchpin importance ...is that they are worshiping (or using the energy of, or devoting prayer to- whatever you wanna call it) an entity that if public got hold of...well... it would make them look real bad!--- say-- ummm... satan for example.

I asked this simple question of them...and I would ask any secretive, unknown spiritual group that was meeting with me and delving into my life this question: Is there any type of satanic worship, or devil worship type activities going on? I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A STR8 ANSWER TO THIS. I mean how hard is it? In answering this question...yes or no... is their idea of the TRUTH gonna be distorted as it is passed down? Does the whole foundation of their belief and practice rely on not letting someone know what they are getting into? Surely if they did worship what is popularly known as satan...it would not look good
for them...and thus when they meet prospective seekers (like me) they would not want to tell. If they have justified this to themselves thru the Fourth Way Self-transformative techniques in some way that modern society has misinterpreted the whole idea of the devil and that utilizing techniques that are "satanic"...are really ok...well..I'd just like to know before I submit to the washing.

maybe you can answer better than those I have experienced so far BlackBook... would The Fourth Way be viewed as satanic by the laity? In other words- would Gurjieffs work be viewed as satanic if it weren't truly understood?

peace...

yeah...and i think its very important that we recognize the evolution taking place.I mean the world of science monitors the physical, ecological, bio-social, forms of evolution. I really think the "powers that be" need to alerted to the reality of this thermo-spiritual/ energetic evolution that is taking place. And young kids could be trained early to act on natural abilities, or trained to nurture dormant energies. Who know where it would go? But...the whole field of "meta-physics",etc...is way too alternative for any formal agency to invest money and time into its research/ development.

How do we overcome this? Where can we go from here? How do we break down the "alternative" walls?

Lotsa love
sly

free...hey girl--

wow!! vibrating during the day...now that is interesting. I have not read about this...but it may be your energy is circulating better and you are feeling that tingling sort of activity in your feet and hands that is associated with energy raising.

When you get done the Buhlman book...make sure you get Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce...it will get you there. My first OBE was using Buhlmans methods...then I couldn't do it again until i read more.

anyhow...good luck- ttys

lotsa love
sly

wisp-- yeah i tend to agree with you here. I mean its a grand statement-- but it sure does feel like evolution in the works.

Freespirit-- that book you are reading by William Buhlman is awesome. And he seems to write with the motivation that I am speaking of: this inner sort of compassion to let others know about the next step in spiritual evolution.

Lets face it...we're not gonna go knocking on doors (at least I am not), and become obnoxiously evangelistic...but it almost seems to sit in the basement and write about it in my journal seems tofall short a bit.

I truly believe this is where humanity is heading. There is a global-spiritual sort of awakening that is slowly happening quickly It won't be tomorrow...but we are seeing/ remembering things as they are. And as we are all here on this site being called to our minds by our minds...we know within us something else exists (and if you have OBE'd...you know damn well it does). There is a fine amount of "responsibility" that is generated when we obtain knowledge and insight like this. Something inside me almost feels it is imperative that it is communicated to as many as we can...of course in our own individual ways; at our own individual comfort levels...but nonethelss, it does feel like it cant be kept secret.

This type of living...and these types of experiences are what will unite everyone in the end. Is that a bold statement - sure...but when we thrash through our own lines, and venture into other areas of ourselves and realize the implications, it becomes apparent how important this stuff is.

Personally, I have all kinds of work to do on myself...i am no spiritual giant, and hope i am not coming across like one. I just know my whole outlook on life evolved when I sat up and walked away from my body. And with that experience came a great deal of responsibility I think - to myself, and to everyone else.

how to manifest that responsibility, and what to do with it is my confusion and challenge --  

lotsa love
slydeni

squeek...
my understanding of the rope technique obviously entails a deep, relaxed state, at least light trance, and then perhaps a loosening of the energy body with some bounce techniques, or visualization techniques. From there...yeah you kinda imagine yourself climbing the rope. Its important, the way understand it, to really "feel" the pressure of climbing the rope - like in your chest, stomach areas and even arms. I think the more vivid the feelings...the better chance you will be successful with this technique.

good luck
lotsa love
sly

cool topic.
You know how every now and again you have that "what weird dreams have you had" conversation with people; Or, the "have you ever seen a ghost" kinda topic. When this has come up a few times I have told evreyone there about OBE and stuff. OBE is hard - as we all know. And it takes some dedication, and motivation. Some just do not have that, or want it it seems...which is cool. But I truly believe it is freeing, and ahould be embraced by everyone. IN an unobtrusive manner...I almost feel its my responsibility to at least mention the possibilitiies of the mind to lotsa different kinda people. Mind you...I do not knock on doors and become evangelistic about it...just with friends and family...i try to tell everyone.

I do have one particular friend (actually my songwriting partner/ bandmate) who is extremely smart, but very cynical and does not believe anything that is not logical and "real."

So here is where my friends and family come in: experiments. The one in AD is great with the card: put a card up on the wall and go to the house and try to get the card. Then tell them what it was another day.My skeptical friend will allow this to occur (although feels it will not). I have not been able to do it yet...but when I do...wooh! Its gonna be a great feeling. I think these type experiments are great, not only for objective results for the skeptical friends/ family...but for us as well for extra motivation.

We are onto something beautifully spiritual, and wonderful. The limits and potential are beyond what I can begin to write. Everyone needs to know about this. Don't be shy. I think subtely bring it up whenever you can.

Does anyone agree - that this subject should be readily accessible and be at least presented to...well...everyone? I truly think everyone should at least know that this sort of stuff is not witchcraft, and some "ghost story" type experience. This is real. Its unbelievable, and its healthy. Yeah we do not wanna be obnoxious in our plight...but I think we all have a responsibility to make this known.

In fact... I think I will start a topic and see what everyone thinks.

lotsa love...
sly

metaphysics...hi.
2 things.

1. How long after the vibes start, do the breathing complications begin? You may be ready to make an exit. There have been times when weird, potentially distracting sensations, have occurred for me and instead of letting them distract me I just make an attempt to exit. This works if the time is right.

2. The other thing is that you said you are getting vibes in the torso and legs. You should be getting them all over. The reasoning for this, as I understand from Robert Bruce's book is that you may be getting poor circulation of energy to other areas. Your secondary energy structures may need a bit of work. The NEW system in Astral Dynamics gives wonderful instruction on this. If certain areas have energy blockages, you could experience a plethora of energy challenges...including the one you are experiencing. Check it out, see if it helps. If you just clear up that area...maybe things will work a lot better.

hope this helps..
lotsa love
sly

Interesting topic.
I would be interested in finding out the reasons for and/or implications of either 1st or 3rd person dreaming.

I personally have dreams of a bit of both. I mostly have 1st person dreams to start, but there have been times...especially when I ( my dream character of myself) becomes highly emotional...at this point I tend to become sort of aware of this and detach (sometimes) from it to a 3rd person perspective.
When this happens I usually watch myself become emotional, but I am aware I am watching myself. This is not lucid, mind you, as I dont necesarily become aware I am dreaming - sometimes I do, and then we're talking a whole different experience - just that I am kindof watching my emotions pass.
I dunno if this is a side effect of meditation practice, or what...if anyone has any thoughts or similar experiences I'd love to know.

I never really thought of this before this topic...

lotsa love

Free...great question-
You sound a lot like me I think. I was drawn to this as well and could not explain why. I had the same fears as you do (and I am not much farther along - I have had less than 10 OBE's). The vibes...embrace them and learn to love them. They absolutely will not hurt you - promise

as far as how it has affected me...mmm... it definitely has bashed any and all prior beliefs in life/ death and afterwards and made me believe that the truth is very accessible and meant for us to search for and experience. my 1st one...i left my body... i went about 10 feet...got extremely excited...snapped back to physical...woke up...and cried a bit. Walking out of your body the first time and realizing it has happened is absolutely unbelieveable. You do it and it rocks you. I think my exact words  to myself were " Holy F@#$%ng S#$T...this is real." -LOL. I mean its impossible to put into words. I knew at this point everything was gonna change. And it has. Lotsa fears subside and are reduced. Lotsa questions about death are kinda brought into more light..and actually inspire more questions-- ) i think the fact you are here and gonna have one soon shows that you have begun questioning and seeing that there is more than what is popularly told. good luck...i hope your husband does not institutionalize you...

lotsa love
sly

Freespirit... yeah i think we all go through the "is this gonna hurt me " phase...
trust me though..you'll be fine. The vibrations are a bit over the top at first...but just go with them, they will not hurt you.

Actually after a few times out...the worst thing to fear is why you are snapped backed in...not how to stay out. Anyhow/// its definitely an experience you should research, persevere through, and have. Good luck and lotsa love along the way-

sly

hi. Incidentally, I have read all the books you have listed...in my obsessive trek to acheive OBE over the past year. And I feel obligated to give my 2 cents. I must say that they are all interesting reading, and sort of fun to read and kindof vicariuously satisfying. But unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it...) what happened to me was that you get all these guys different ways of approaching and experiencing, and writing about OBE's...and a bit of confusion and intimidation sets in. You read and read and your mind is filled with all these different techniques, methods, and esoteric sort of experiences...and well...my point is that I after reading all these books, I think there are only 2 worth reading (at least intitally) to aid the process: 1. Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics (this is really the only one you'll need!). 2. William Buhlman's book-- I forget the title right now-

the one thing i think a lot of authors, except Robert Bruce, overlook is that they themselves seem to have been blessed with intense natural ability and that telling us through their book that just saying "Now I am out of body" as you fall asleep will do the trick. I do not think this works for everyone..the same way that if I say breathe in and then expel air out of your lungs through your vocal chords while audibly visualizing a song will make you sing in key. Mr. Bruce's book is like Astral Projection 101 and on up through graduate level study...

anyhow...the other books are fun to read and I am just as guilty as most of my bi-weekly trip to Borders to pick up a new metaphysics type book. The thing I realized, however, is that you gotta jump off the cliff sooner or later and get your own thing going...

lotsa love
denny

Zarklon...hello there
I am fairly new to this site and OBE...had about 8 of them so far in a year. But I have been doing energy work, meditation, etc for a while...and I think -  if you have not already -  you should definitley read Astral Dynamics. Get it at Borders or wherever...but its great for energy work.

I agree with Wonderboy on his starburst explanation. You use a bit of visualization if you like in the beginning to stimulate the area you wanna start on (i.e. thumb joints, or big toe joints) with stirring actions, or some kinda paintbrush sorta motion (all these are well explained in AD). Then you'll begin feeling (unless you have some blockage...in which case you should definitley read AD to find how to get through this) some kinda sensation. I understand it differs from person to person. My sensation is kindof a very intense tickly pressure thing (lol). But you'll know it when you get it. Then you focus on that feeling...cultivate it...let it grow and then you have successfully stimulated your secondary site...at this point you can do a number of things...move it around your feet, into your legs, up your back...etc. But!!! Definitely read Astral Dynamics because there are...mmm...things you should be aware of when doing energy work - not really worries, just do's and dont's...to get the most out of it. Good luck to you-

lotsa love
sly

Hi. I have been reading your posts and I have had very simliar experiences as Tracy with guided meditation. For me I relax, breathe for a while, get into that very chill state...and then INTEND on creating as vivid imagery as I can (appealing to all the senses). Go about 10 minutes into the woods...see animals, smells, trees, lakes...and then come up to a cabin, or house, or anything you want really...and tell yourself that when you knock on the door and it is opened it will be one of your guides - if not your primary guide. There may be success and there may not. The one thing I read to make sure I did do during this was to intend on meeting/ seeing but not to CREATE an image of them...kinda let it just be on its own...and dont have EXPECTATIONS.
I have also done this with lost relatives and it works that way as well.

Now.. the thing is this...when its done..and I dont know why- maybe cuz this is all done over the canvas of a concious mind..it is definitely not the "Holy crap... that just happened!" that an OBE gives. There is definitely a certain amount of ...mmm...belief/faith that has to happen to convince yourself you met them. I asked them a coupla questions, met 3 of the 5, and the answers to the questions helped convince me more...it was sorta like the answers were not really a way I would speak or answer a question. So...maybe try and formulate a coupla questions to incorprate into the visualization and see what gives...good luck to you

and if you are successful at meeting/ hanging out with them on the Astral or RTZ..please let me know of the experience... that would be a gem-

lotsa love
sly

cool...sounds like good advice. I definitely am "thinking" too much while I am out. The anxiety builds, the tension rises...and I rush into it. I absolutely am guilty of trying to have some meaningful thing happen before it ends-

I will try and be more patient with the events, and less analytical and excited as well.

I am very dedicated to getting a strong hold on this ability. It seems there are many answers to be learned through this. I approach most things I become interested in with lotsa obsessive enthusiasm. So...I really want to become proficient at this and learn, so I can be in a position to help others learn and heal through OBE as well. It really should become more popular than it is. I think as we evolve, more people will open up to "alternative" practices...and soon after, it will not be as alternative.

While I am rambling...The thing that is confusing me is that I can't understand why it is so much easier to leave once I have realized I am sleeping/ dreaming than it is to purposefully sit down and have an attempt. I guess I will keep working with the Astral Dynamics techniques until I find my hook.

Oh..here is another oddity (at least to me, for now ,while I still reside in my less than 10 OBE status): when I project from dream state most of the time I have been in the room I was physically sleeping in...but once or twice I projected conciously, but the environment was the dream environment. I actually was able to fly and stay out a bit longer...but it was slightly less intense than the others...i guess now that I think about it, I felt less concious, but it was lucid.

Anyhow..thanx so much for the replies and help...I'll keep working, and studying...see you soon- )

lotsa love
sly