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Hey, whatever happened to the issue of Enlightenment and Astral projection?  What's the relationship between the two? Is there a relationship?  Are psychic abilities really a distraction from the ultimate goal of true, profound liberation?  Or, is there room for astral projection on the path towards freedom?
I've been wrestling with these questions for a few years. I actually gave up pursuing psychic experiences about ten years ago because I discovered I had more important, basic issues to work on. Also, I felt the Buddhists were right, that you can get lost easily.  But now I'm back to OBEing. Why?  Because hell, I just love the adventure! I mean Out-of-body experiences are just so exciting. So I see it as a skill, like any other skill that anyone can learn. And having that skill does not mean that I am somehow more spiritual than anyone else.
(But the quest for true love, liberation, enlightenment, still calls within!)


Feelflowz

Joya,

These are terrific questions, very important ones. I don't have anything to add right now, but I'm looking forward to hearing more responses.
Hopefully this will be an on going discussion, because I think it gets to the heart of who we are.  What IS fear?  What IS love?
A wonderful investigation!  Thanks for bringing it to the forumn!

Cheers,
Feelflowz

I'd say go about it slowly. Use a whole system like Robert Bruce's NEW energy development, or Robert Monroe's Gateway experience, or Taoist Interanl Alchemy, like Mantak Chia's qi gong system.
If you go about it slowly, your fear will be reduced. Also, I've heard that you shouldn't try to open your third eye right away, that you should work on the lower energy centers first. If you concentrate solely on the third eye, you could induce "kundalini psychosis" or "Qi Gong psychosis" and start to lose your marbles.
Awakening your latent psychic abilities and self-healing should be considered inseperable. You'll grow healthier and wiser!

good luck

Feelflowz

Thanks for the reply and advice Telos!

Actually, right after I woke up and out of that creepy OBE, I wanted to go straight back in again, but I decided to write down the experience first before I forgot it.  When I was fully aware that I was out of the obe, the sense of fear and dread was automatically gone.

I had one other negative experience a couple years ago. I had never experienced sleep paralysis before, but after reading about it in Astral Dynamics, I experienced it that very night!  I woke up, unable to move, and felt overcome by a sense of terror. Interestingly enough, I don't remember fear growing and graduallly becoming terror; it was more like I was slammed right in the middle of terror, like it came with the package. Maybe because that's what I read about and so subconsciously wanted to or expected to have that experience. Luckily I remembered R. Bruce's theory, that I was actually already out of my body, and instantly found myself standing in my bedroom. I passed right through the window, stood outside and gazed toward the sky. I jumped straight up hoping to head toward a star and enter an astral plane, but my body became really heavy and I woke up.

Fear has never been an issue with my obe's (except for those two examples), but I do struggle with control. I think when we do go into OBEs or LDs, our emotions, fears and desires become magnified.
Often as soon as I enter the trance state I become overwhelmed with excitement and forget the tasks that I originally set out to do. This is especially true with lustful/sexual desire  

So far I think the key to keeping our fears and desires in check is to practice OBEing a lot until it becomes almost a mundane experience. (I said almost; OBE's are never mundane!) And I think its important to be on a spiritual path where self-develoment, gratitude, and the quest for unconditional love are the main priorities.

Still, a constant inquiry into the reasons for and mechanics of fear, desire, powerlessness, loss of control etc. is important...and fascinating. I would love for this to be a topic that people here contribute to!

Feelflowz

I'm fairly new to internet chat world. Can anyone recommend a site to find nice avatars?

Thank!
Feelflowz

Last night I experienced a frightening OBE/LD. (I'm not sure if it was an OBE or LD)

I was lying in bed aware that my eye mask was on but able to see slightly below the mask. I reached my arm out to take off the mask, but realized I couldn't see my arm. At that point I knew I wasn't in ordinary waking consciousness.
I grabbed the mask, which I could feel in my hand, and threw it to the floor, but somehow the mask was still on blocking most of my vision. I shouted out a command (W. Buhlman's technique), something like "vision now!", but nothing changed. I had the feeling that this was something like sleep paralysis, where according to R.Bruce, you are already out-of-body wandering around freely somewhere. So I gave another command, "Go to astral body!". Again, nothing happened. I was still in bed blinded by the eye mask. I grabbed it again, threw it to the floor, did this several times, and each time the mask somehow remained stuck to my face like a black shadow covering my vision. I started to feel a little panicky and wanted to wake up. I shouted the command "Return to body!"  But nothing happened. I remained stuck. I started to feel a sense of dread.  What if I can't wake up, what if I'll be stuck here forever?  
During this time while the fear was growing,  my body was hovering horizontally within a house. All I could see through the narrow crack were empty white walls and a stair case that led nowhere, then my body would be automatically pulled back to my room and I would start drifting around again.
Eventually the feeling of fear and suffocation grew so much that I started chanting a Chinese Buddhist mantra, "A Mi Do Fo, A Mi Do Fo..."  I felt my body slightly rise. At some point I was out side, and through the crack of my vision I saw three or four bodies covered by blankets as if they were dead. I broke the mantra and quickly yelled as loud and hard as I could while shaking my head, "WAKE UP!!"
This time I rose out of bed and yanked the damned eye make off my face. I was finally out of this creepy OBE.

What could I learn from this experience? How come I was so powerless, how come my commands didn't work? Has anyone else had a similar experience? I'd love to hear about it! What's the secret to control  

Feelflowz

oh yeah, that's the last time I'm using an eye mask!

Congratualtions!

Thrilling, uh?!

Does anyone have any experience with the Brainwave-entrainments cds from www.brainwave-entrainment.com ?
They look pretty interesting, but before I buy I'd like to know if they really help.
What do you think about using technology as an aid for OBE/lucid dreaming? Will it keep people dependent on using tools, or can it help people to eventually enter trance states at will?

Feelflowz

Has anyone heard of or played the computer game called "Wild Divine"?
It uses a bio-feedback system thats hooked up to your fingers. In order to play the game, go to the next level etc., you have to get into a meditative state, regulate your breath and heart beat. It's supposed to help people learn these skills and contribute to the evolution of computer games.  And instead of pumping lead into anything that moves and blowing up things, you interact with spiritual guides and lamas.
I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds pretty cool. Maybe a good Christmas gift. And I wonder, the Wild Divine virtual world might be a good place to visit in the Astral plane if enough people create it.

Feelflowz

ps: check out the website: www.wilddivine.com

No one has mentioned eXiztenZ, a wonderfully creepy and quirky Cronenberg movie with Jude Law. It's about virtual reality games. When Jude Law's character first gets "plugged in" to the game, it reminds me of an OBE I had when I was suddenly "transported" into a busy restaurant and was in a state of amazement.  Also, there's a scene where he's getting nervous in the virtual reality game world and wants to put the game on pause to check up on his physical body. He stands up and shouts out "eXistenZ is on Pause!" and wakes up. Reminds me of W. Buhlman's technique of shouting "Clarity Now" or some other useful command while in OBE.

Here's some other great movies, not so much about OBE specifically, but how reality is not necessarily what it seems:

The Truman Show  (awesome Peter Weir movie with Jim Carey
Dark City  (stunning surprise ending!)

Oh yes, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, another Jim Carey movie that is about OBE/dream state!

Oh yeah, another one: Somewhere in Time (I think that's the title) A very sentimental weepy romantic movie about a man (Christopher Reeves) who falls in love with a women while OBE. The title song is well known.

Enjoy!
Feelflowz

Here's some questions for anyone who wants to answer:

How important is it to activate the chakras/energy centers?
Where does the energy that one needs to OBE come from?
How important is it to feel vibes in order to OBE?
Is the experience of vibes important in R. Monroe's system?

I'm playing with R. Bruce's, Monroe's, and Buhlman's techniques to
come up with a program. It's so hard to choose which techniques to stick to!

Early this morning I drifted into a trance state which I easily recognize: body feels heavy and my mind focused.  I could feel myself going deeper and deeper into trance though not effortless; I had to almost concentrate and hold on to it. Then the trance feeling slowly wore off and I shifted into ordinary consciousness. I was a bit annoyed.  I relaxed, gave it another go and drifted into a light dream.

Again, I shifted into the trance state. Still a feeling of having to hold on to it. I felt my body/astral-bady slowly turn until I was face downward and my whole body began to sink down into the earth. I remember using Buhlman's technique of shouting "Clarity Now".  I didn't notice any dramatic changes in clarity but it may have helped me to stay in trance. Eventually I got to the bottom but I all I could see was cartoonish 2 dimensional hypnogogic type imagery, like I was in trance and not OBE.
Eventually I switched back to waking consciousness.
What went wrong?  How come I couldn't fulliy go into the Astral, like I have experienced in the past?  I noticed I didn't experience any vibrations. Not enough energy?  My chakras were not activated?  
But does Monroe's phasing require experiencing vibrations? If not, what is it that really allows one to fully and easily enter the Astral?

This is a fantastic forumn!  Thanks to all of you!

Feelflowz

I'd really like to know what people think of the different kinds of technology out there: hemi-sync, Brainwave Generator etc.

What else it out there?

And, what is the Brainwave Generator? Is it a machine? Software you download in your computer?

I'd love to know your opinions and experiences.

Cheers,
Paul

HI there!

For the first time I remembered to try doing energy stimulating exercises while in the trance state.
The vibrations were so strong (especially in genital area) that it zapped me right out of the trance.  I tried to go back in but couldn't.

Does anyone have experience with raising or stimulating energy while in trance? I would love to hear about it!

Cheers
Paul

Hi there, I'm new to the forum and am really glad to have found it!

I've had a number of OBE's, lucid dreams, and trance/vibration experiences but I'm fairly new to OBE literature and technique terms.

Could someone please tell me what "phasing" is? Does it have something to do with The Monroe Institute's Gateway technique?  If so, could someone also briefly explain what the Gateway system is about?

I'm eager to find new ways for developing OBE ability, especially ways to effectively and efficiently enter the trance state.

Has anyone had success using hemi-sync music?

Thanks for your help and time!

Cheers
Paul

Hi, I'm new to the forum.  What a great place!

I'm hoping to get some advice on how to enter the trance state.

I've experienced the trance state many times and have had a number of OBE's.  But I have yet to experience these directly from a conscious state.

Here's the system that I've been using:  I get up around 5 or 5:30 am, do about an hour of gi-gong (Mantak Chia's smiling to the internal organ exercises and microcosmic orbit) then I go back to bed.  If I lie on my back and relax and allow myself to fall asleep. If I'm lucky I will either have a lucid dream or automatically find myself in the trance state with vibrations. Sometimes I'll experience remote viewing, sometimes my arms or legs or both will float upwards.  
The problem is that it'sa hit and miss system.  Although, If I do it regularly, the frequency of the experiences increase. But it only works during the early morning hours and I can't always sleep in so late.

I can see that getting into the trance state is the key (besides energy raising). Once I'm in a trance, so much is possible.  This morining was one of those lucky times I somehow mysteriously drifted into a trance.  I was totally aware as it was coming and I could feel that heavy gentle falling sensation and the sharp focus of my mind.  It seems to happen automatically without any effort. For the first time I took Robert's advice about doing his energy stimulating exercises while in trance.  Wow!  It was so strong!  I thought my testicles were going to explode.  I tried to avoid that area, but it was no use.  The intense electrical vibes jolted me out of the trance and I just couldn't seem to get back into it again.

When I try to self-induce the falling sensation and clear my mind of thoughts, there's a sense of self-consciousness I can't get rid of. It seems if I consciously try to enter a trance, I can't.
What's the key to slipping into that elusive trance?!!

Any ideas?

Cheers

Hi Zarklon,

I think your questions can be answered in the dialogs under my post "the elusive trance state". Just click on my name "Feelflowz" and than click on that post.
I'd be happy to answer any other questions.

I'm trying to find out the secret to going into trance any time of the day.  So far I have only been able to go into trance after doing some qi gong early in the morning than going back to bed. If you learn anything, let me know.

Cheers,
Paul

Interesting comments.

What is the difference between trance and deep physical relaxation?

Hi Ninthplanet

Qi gong has become really popular within the last few years.  I'm sure there's tons of stuff on the web.
Mantak Chia has written lots of books.  His style gets really esoteric, so its best to learn from a person, not a book.  Actually that's true for qi gong in general.
But I do recommend Chia's basic books, the ones on the Inner Smile, the Six Healing Sounds, and maybe the basic Microcosmic Orbit material.  You can easily find his books on Amazon.com
Doing the inner smile qi gong was enough to energize me and induce lucid dreaming and OBE's.  
But just to let you know, I was doing these exercises every day for about an hour in the evening and an hour in the early morning for about 3 months!  I had a lot of time on my hands during my last semester of college.
Also, I'd have to say Robert Bruce's energy stimulating and raising exercises are probably as good as any qi gong that is similar to it.
The routine my make a difference - get up early, to the exercises, than go back to bed as I described earlier.
Good Luck!


Oohyeah,

You're right.  In the beginning after my alarm went off, I just couldn't bother. I'd roll over and go back to sleep.  But after a few times of really forcing myself to get up and eventually getting positive results, I became more excited and motivated to wake up and 5 in the morning.

I don't know why it doesn't seem to work in the afternoon or evening.  Obviously it is possible since others, like Robert Bruce, do it.  It might be a matter of practice, consistent practice.
It's probably easier in the early morning since the longest periods of REM state occur during the  morning.  Even after fully waking up, its easier for our brains to slip back into those waves (theta? I forget).
Definitely give it a try for a couple of weeks if time allows.  Don't worry if nothing happens within the first week or longer. Just give yourself to the routine as I described earlier.  I'm sure you'll slowly start to have interesting experiences that will eventually accumulate to an OBE.  And try keeping a dream journal.  I that reinforces your subconscious intention to be aware in dreams.

Speak to you later,
Paul

Hi there Oohyeah

I have rarely been able to have an OBE without having done some qi gong first.  I guess it gives me that little bit of energy to slip into the trance state and feel the vibrations.  Most likely any kind of qi gong would do.  I did Mantak Qia's Smiling exercises where you sit down and imagine that you're smiling loving grateful energy to each of the 5 main organs and imagine that these organs, as if they were individual entities, smiling back to you. You can also imagine the color and positive emotion associated with the organ.
I would really take my time, up to an hour, and really get into the feeling of it.  Sometimes I might experience some tingling sensations, but usually  not.
I would do this around 5 or 5:30 in the morning then go back to bed.

Lying on my back back was essential for going into the trance state or lucid dreaming.  If I rolled onto my side I would usually slip into a regular dream.
Often while lying on my back and relaxing I would feel a pleasant tingling sensation on one side or both sides of my rib cage.  This usually indicated that I would soon slip into the trance state.  But if I got too excited it wouldn't happen.
I found the key to going into the trance was to not think about it at all and just allow myself to sleep.  If I tried consciously to go into a trance it would never happen.
This is what frustrates me now.  I would like to learn to go into the trance state using the methods Robert Bruce teaches and be able to go into trance during the day and not just early morning.

When I first started this qi gong routine it wasn't my intention to experience Lucid Dreaming or OBE's.  However I always wanted to experience these ever since having read and re-read Carlos Castaneda's books when I was in high-school and college.
Anyhow I noticed in the beginning that my dreams would get really strange and vivid, so I kept a dream journal and wrote down my dreams each morning.  I'm sure keeping a dream journal actually increased the vividness of the dreams.  After a while my dreams became even more strange and vivid and I would dream of having dreams within dreams.  Finally I started having short moments of lucidity.  That's when it became really exciting for me since all this Carlos Castaneda stuff was coming to life and I was becoming confident that it was all true.

Eventually while continuing this qi gong routine I started having different types of experiences.  Sometimes I would be having a regular dream and then suddenly become lucid.  Other times I would wake up aware of myself lying down but in a particulare state, the trance state.  Its a very distinct feeling and when you're in it you know it.  While in this trance state I would fee vibrations throughout my body, sometimes an arm or leg would spontaneously rise up (from the energy body), sometimes I would find myself wandering around my room, but I don't know if it was lucid dreaming or if I was OBE.
The longer I continued this routine, the more powerful and more frequent the experiences. Eventually I had a really mind blowing experience that turned out to be part OBE and part future travel.  I might describe that event in another forum.

Anyhow, give the qi gong a try early in the morning, go back to bed lying on your back and try keeping a dream journal for a while.  The key is consistency.  If nothing happens, don't be discouraged, just keep following the routine.  I thought of it this way, just do the qi gong for the health benefit and let the lucid dreaming and OBE be a pleasant side result.  The key is not to get too excited or anxious.
I'm trying to figure out the other key points for easily slipping into trance.  If you have any ideas, let me know1

Cheers
Paul

I've been searching around the forums looking for answers.  There's so much jargon I don't understand.

It seems as though there are two kinds of experiences people are talking about (and probably more): The OOBE and Phasing.

What is the difference between the two?

Cheers
Paul

Here's another question:

I've heard people say that going into the trance state is not needed for OBE's. I would think the trance state is essential.

Any thoughts?

Cheers