Messages

Tombo,

I think its important to show people's attempts at validation with the cards if its their first or tenth time at it. Just because one sets their intent out to validate a card, but the experience shows a different form of validation is equally important.

If it wasn't for people like Selski or AmericanIdiot to come forward with these experiments this board would be pointless. People shouldn't hold back about their validations.

Tvos

Who needs validation?I think this validation thing is pointless. Every ober knows when he has been in a obe... The only sense I can find to the card thing is to create a clear purpose that may help to obe better than just going to sleep as any other day. Other than that, pintless.

I have let down the tendence I used to have to come up with the subject whenever I had the chance...It was disapointing indeed.
Now I have turned into a kind of policeman: I say nothing unless someone starts trashing on the subject merely guided by his/her complete ignorance or prejudices. Then I go like: " will you shut up?"  
Yet, if someone shows curiosity, I might tell as much as I know, but trying to keep my personal experience aside.

When I said the scope of science I didn't mean men with university degrees, I meant men and women like you and me looking at this issue from a scientific perspective

Yes, I got you wrong here.I was alredy picturing a bunch of surgery dressed guys looking at the monitors and a volunteer ober lying in bed at the hospital plugged to all sort of sensors.

I feel most people try and fit this subject into THEIR reality and belief structures, and I find this a kin to trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

I agree with you Hans, I don't want to find out what people think. I want to find out what's really out there.

But we need to substract a coherent explanation from all this experiences, or at least, we think we need those explanations.Don´t we?

Do you mean by the "New age dogma" and such that the problem is that people is "believing" instead of actually "living" (understood as experiencing) ?

I can't wait until the scope of science zooms in on this subject and blows away this crud and exposes the truth beneath.

I can´t wait either. But I can´t see how science can reveal a truth he is not looking for.

I have had some exasperation with dealing with some of the
nonsensical ideas in the new age

Who hasn´t?  

My rule on this has been to stay with the evidence. Then there is a
lot of consideration to figure out exactly what the evidence
demonstrates and what it does not. There is a long sorting
process

There might very well be evidence of the very same essence of the universe right around the corner. But I don´t think that evidence will demonstrate anything to us unless it is shown in an understandable manner. Basically, we are dealing with subjects we have no words for. And reason, science, logic, can hardly extract any meaningull pattern so far. Evidence, thus, has a value as non verval experience for me. But not as arguable data, as this sorting process you mention will leave many evidence appart just becouse there is no drawer to keep it.

There is even a lonelier category to be in and that is the lonely scientifically inclined phaser.

First, no one will listen to you in the main stream, and then you get these boards and if you don't believe that the Angels, demons, and gnomes you meet in Focus 2 are real then all hell breaks loose from the mystics (old school) and New Agers.  

Ahh....I just hope things change once Franks book comes out, or another forum gets built for a more rational view of this subject.  If not, the mainstream will never learn about the wider reality due to their unwillingness, and rightfully so, to even entertain all the crud that surrounds this issue.

I can't wait until the scope of science zooms in on this subject and blows away this crud and exposes the truth beneath.   One can hope.

Currently we are just coming out of the  Dark Ages of Astral Projection thanks to Robert Monroe and Frank.

Han solo

Yes, real Dark Ages. I would say Middle Age, that´s actually the feel I get from some people involved in this New Age thing. They might have an apparently interesting speech at first , but too many times turns out to be a mere pose. A big blurr.

I have no clue why science should bother about "us".  They are too busy making money right now.

Focus 2. What the hell is that? Can you tell me without getting a headache?

I hardly meet anyone involved in OBEs.People basically don´t care about this things.I have come up with the subject sometimes with really close friends. But they merely listen, I guess they understand, and that´s the end of the conversation. Kind of boring for both parts
Well,the fun thing is that when I lived in Amsterdam some years ago, I strangelly started to meet people that was involved in OBE experiences. I was not really asking them about it, I wasn´t even coming up with the subject...It was like a normal conversation and they would suddenly come up with words like: "You know? Last night had this and that happening to me..." They were talking about OBE experiences, no doubt.
But back to Spain, the strike was over. I try to drift conversations towards dreams sometimes...expecting some action storyes.But nothing...dreams are just dreams, you know?
Are we really so few?
And, What the hell is pople thinking about all day long?
Lucky me I found this forums oasis. This everyday spiritual desert sure lets you thirsty...
I guess I´m through one of the classic "what the hell I´m doing with my life" crisis. Will pass...
Thanks for reading

Yours could be a "copy & paste" text from me. Really the same has been happenning to me for some time. Lots of vibrations and exit sensations but not really moving around at all. Painful sometimes too, more than painful, rather awfull feeling of vibrations when semi conscient...Might be this chackra locking, but I would´t obsess about it. That´s the best I can tell you. To obsess will just simply not help, quite the opposite. I´ve found vibrations have been nicer when I´ve been more relaxed and in better peace with myself.
All will come by itself

Stanislaw Lem wrote a very fun book about stars and space, ..."Diaries from the stars" could be an aproximate translation to english (I read it in Spanish)
Well, one of the chapters is about how the narrator (an astronaut) got involved in the creation of the universe. Goes like this (resumed, off course):
He has a cientist friend that is actually in deep research of the origin of that primary atom that was there waiting to "bang" and give birth to the whole universe. The rest of the science community has let the primary atom aside focusing on the big bang. The primary atom is  too tough...The scientist questions go like: "What was doing there for a whole eternity waiting to explode? If has been a whole eternity waiting, why it didn´t explode an eternity before?"...
After deeper and deeper research and evaluating all the possibilyties, he arrives to the conclusion that that atom actually DID NOT exist,and the universe is actually a MISTAKE.
He knows, as a scientist, that some particles occasionally ,and for an almost impossible to appreciate short period of time, brake the laws of physics. They do something "illegal". That is so short and so unnapreciable that actually does not account for a real change in the overall strucure of the fundaments of physics laws, is just a little prank. And as soon it passes everything is normal again. And under the physics laws track again.
So , he thinks further about it all...and the conclusion is that that primal atom was simply not there.There was nothing, but at a certain point something appears breaking all the rules of non existance.The laws are broken for a second: where it has been nothing for an eternity, suddenly, something appears. This would be unnapreciable under every day time measurments, but that tiny moment took place in the middle of eternity...so that moment turned to be as long as the age of the universe.
After he arrives to that conclusion, his main concern is the following:
If the universe existance is "illegal" it wil sooner or later go back to its "legal" state. That misshap (that little particle) will be corrected and the original nothingness will take place again as it should be.Consequences are horrible to imagine...Everything will suddenly disappear!!!
Then he finds the solution: he builds a machine that can be driven so that sends a particle back in time-space right to the exact  place and moment that little "illegal" particle appeared. Paying off the debt of matter the universe is carrying for so many many years.
As you can imagine , that machine is driven by the narrator; the astronaut. That´s why he says he took an active part in the creation of the universe.

Is really an amazing book. Highly recomended.
Might make sense to the topic here? ....mmmm

Hi all,Let me jump in; (excuse me as english is not my mother´s language, I´ll try my best )


I think our belief system rather selects than creates our world. As William Blake´s famous sentence states: "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is: infinite" Is a selection, not a creation. I like to think about our everyday perception as a little laboratory we carry along. It can analyze and proceed as much data as it´s capable of...no more, usually much less. This laboratory equippement is set by our culture and education since the first moment we´re born.We´re tought to relate to the world like: This is a tree, see? Touch it ! It´s called T R E E, and so on...
But our energy body is there, all the time, since we are born too.(We´re made of energy too, we´re no exception).But is let appart as we are tought to percieve the world in terms of matter an solid and concret objects from the very first minute of our existence, not in energy terms, and we have all our enery reservoir at it.
Probably survival reasons drove manhood to percieve the otherwise energy nature of the universe in such a way. Some other cultures have still nowadays what we would call "paranormal" abailityes. Such as telepathy and others. Is probably time now to go back to the good old times, isnt it?

Mister Jingo´s first question states that physical body perception is a belief system and wonders wheter the energy body might be one as well.
I would say that physical body is product  of the way we have arranged our perception.An arrangement transmited generation by generation, so, yes, a belief system. But the energy body is a product of a NON belief system. You quit your everyday comon sense, beliefs and perception arrangements in order to get to your energy body.Or try at least. Wheter trough meditation , trance lucid dreaming (or DMT if you wish)...But your mind is quiet, silent...has just shut up. And if has shut up, it can´t belief.

Consciousness is a poin of awarness, yes, but arranged so is only aware of a physical world, and body. Is relatively easy to loss concience of our physical body. Just sleep and you do so.
But to drift the so well trained and accostumed conscience to our solid and physical world to have a coherent perception outside the everyday perception habits is a really tough work. OBE is such a coherent perception, and not easy as we all know. It takes energy, and we don´t have much left after every day life activityes.

Hope I have said something clear to you,so far
I´ll join in later
Cheers

I had once a voice speaking to me in my dreams,.It was an old woman voice telling me: "Quit smoking now!" To say was just a nightmare might help keep fear down, but might not be the most accurate explanation...I think.

Upstream:
 Of course, anyone believes whatever he/she wants to, that´s out of discussion. But you left me very confused now...how is that you consider CC books a fiction and at the same time consider him a talented  dreamer ? That´s a contradiction to me. Could you give an explanation ?
The only I can think of now is that you mean he built up fantastic (in the sense of fiction, at least) books around few truths experienced by himself.
 Myself, had read most CC books with true amusement. They used to be very enjoyable reads for sure. But things turned more...well, serious once I managed to see my hands in a dream. That was it for me. Actually,if I get your point, does not matter much if he had never  been in Oaxaca , or even met any Don Juan, that´s true (is that your point?) as long as he describes very detaied dream experiences and methods, and as I could verify, incredibly true.

What I do is to take the exact position of my sleeping body in the dream. This is called the twin position in Castaneda's book, The Art Of Dreaming.

The art of dreaming is an excellent book.
That´s a highly recomended read.
 Sorry if I go a bit out of topic now but there are some points on that book which I would love to get a clearer view and hear some opinions from other readers:
Don´t you think there is some kind of fundamental division in this forums about the way  people approach theyr energetic body ? Wasn´t in that book that Don Juan mention the differences between stalkers and dreamers? What do you think about it? I think that was a very interesting subject.
Also, what was Don Juan (or Castaneda)  saying  about the difference between the energetic body and the dream body (if any) ?
And/or  the difference between a LD and a OOB?
Cheers

I read this on a book and would like to hear some oinions about it.
Greetings

I appreciate very much all the posts here about relaxation technics, meditation,"almost sleep" and this and that other technic for OBEs..., but is a bit upseting for me becouse I´m not at it[]

My first OBE came from a dream...
I was reading Castaneda books about that time and was very intrigued about all the stuff he was describing there..my curiosity was unbearable! There was a certain passage of a book telling that by looking at your hands in the middle of a dream you could be able to get control over it and at the same time become aware of your energetic body(OBE´s vehicle for sure)It sounded pretty weird to me, but crazy easy to try too[]
Well, I decided to give it a try ,and after some time I succed...I´m not gonna describe the deep amazement I felt: I couldn´t...
Just after looking at my hands in the middle of my dream ,my conscience moved right back to my room :and I was in full vibrations lying in my bed...and after a slight wish of doing so ,I simply pulled out.
Since then, all my chances to OBE have been generated inside a regular dream...the last times I didn´t even had to look at my hands: Is just that at a certain point of a regular and normal dream It starts to get more and more vivid...till the point I tell to myself:THIS IS A DREAM! And I´m inmediately back to my bed in full vibratins.Not really pulling out lately becouse I wake up due to the impression of the vibrations.I think I´m getting a bit too excited about it all and I stop before I can pull away[]Which is what I most wish !!! (I remember once even waked up shouting !)
I have to admit I have no patience for trying to achieve any trance state or any other wake induced OBE technic..and I´m afraid is not my way anyway. Dreaming is far easier[]Though a bit unpredictable, becouse I really have no clue when I will have the chance to become aware of my dreams..It just happens.
Who is progressing in this field? I would greatly apreciate your story.
Best wishes

Well, online unless you know somewhere in Barcelona o get one.I´ve been on its web but there were no purchasse options.
Thanks

Hi there,
lately I´m getting more active again...To put it short:I dream a regular dream,at a certain point I realize I´m dreaming then (as always do, instead of staying in the dream)I automatically jump to my "astral body" in my bedroom:dream has already stopped and the vibrations start as I try to pull out.
That´s fine for me, (I mean I don´t mind not staying in my lucid dream, well OBE is far more interesting anyway[]) but I can´t help but waking up when the vibrations occur! I could "jump" out some time ago... but now I´m stuck![V]I can´t let it go...
Did you ever had the same problem? How did you manage?
Thanks!

Hello, I´m new here.
(I will try to explain with my best english...)
Five years ago or so I had my first OBE (Out of Body Experience, right?as you call it). It was a revelation that changed the way I looked at the world;a mistery was unveiled,"whaaaa ,I can fly!!!"-I thought... magic was knocking at my door! But to say it was an inflexion point is to say too much... since more than 5 yers later I can´t say my life has experimented any substantial change!Well, I´m not sure yet whether it has been something positive or not... since more than an inflexion point it has created a division in me.
Don´t worry, I´m not esquizo yet[]To put it simple, In one hand I think:"Come on man,You can fly!!!Go for it !!!" But in the other I think :"Dude,forget about it!This is messy stuff!.
I must say I normaly follow the second way of thought for several reasons:Besides the evidence of my OBEs there is nothing in my daily life that matches with this stuff.(Not even to mention my job),I have no OBE friends so far(I knew some once but ar not close anymore)to talk or help with its exploration.The ones I have are as I "was before", but I´m not feeling as close as I was to them...these OBEs have reinforced my freak side, interest seem to fade...And I don´t like it.I also have the feeling that reinforce my "OBE side" would require a change in my life, something I´m normaly lazy for.
Hence, my almost nule evolution in my OBE(I won´t enter into detais in this post if you don´t mind)reinforces at the same time my feel that this is not something to care much about,or that is nothing serious, as daily life seems to be(?!)and just try to  forget about it...and now comes the paradox...like a bomb...: when I would forget about it ,and keep on my daily life and feel happy and trouble free again... ANOTHER OBE OCCURS!!!!
All this hassle and unease feel has led me here looking for some answers...so here I am.
Do you have some glue left for me? So I can put these two parts of my life together?[]
Thanks and greetings to all  of you.            

[/quote]
I didn't stop dreaming, I just became aware and moved at will through and out of the dream. To answer your question, though, no, I don't think you need to worry about the exit sensations from a lucid dream. If you become aware and have a destination in mind, you can think about how that place feels and will yourself there.

There really isn't any of the OBE "hassle" from a lucid dream.
[/quote]

 This is amazingly simple, I didn´t know you could "move" to RTZ from a LD...but what do I know ! I´m a beginner...I think that my problem is that I get too excited any time I get LD or OBEs and I suddenly wake up from the excitement...But This move to RTZ from a LD without all that OBE "hassle" should let me keep things smooth, but I have to stay in the LD which is the hard part, becouse I can´t help (or I haven´t tryed hard enough) but stop dreaming and start OBEs from myself in the bedroom...Mmmm...will see...
Cheers !

Mactomb, you have pointed something that´s shaking my head for some time now , let´s see if you (or someone) can bear some light to it becouse it´s been a  confusing point since I got into all this:
You said that in your last dream , after demanding "complete awarness" you quit the dreamscape and "raised" into RTZ....According to my limited experience, you went from a dream to an OBE, didn´t you?
I say that becouse whenever I went from a dream environment to a RTZ environment (being my bedroom the starting point of the RTZ environment, as most of the "classic" OBEs) I had all the , let´s say, "symptoms" of a OBE: vibrations, pulling out sensations...
I mean that it seems not possible for me to go into RTZ without all the oOBE procedure...and that´s something annoying becouse all this vibrations and pulling out sensations are so strong that easily break my control and I have to stop.
My questions are:
When you rised from the LD to the RTZ, I assume you stoped dreaming, didn´t you? So, where were you at the transition point? You did go back to yourself in bed and started from there? Or there is a way to jump to RTZ from a LD without all the Obe "hassle" ?

yours, loco

I have my doubts about that woman making you lucid...I think YOU did it, not her. My doubts are based in the fact that, as you said, you´ve encountered other friends and even telling them they were dreaming, they didn´t become lucid.

Anyway, I think chances are odd that two people dream the same dream, and even harder to meet there.I don´t say is impossible, of course (otherwise I wouldn´t be in this forums)I just say is hard.
Somehow I have the feel that you missinterpretated something, I mean...About your friend´s dream: You said he was there and you told him about dreaming and he got a funny face and then he flyes away, right ? In my opinion that was a dream, that´s it.That doesn´t mean at all that he was even there...he was probably dreaming about something completely different.And that was only an image of your friend.

I hope I didn´t sound too esceptic, I didn´t mean so.
Cheers to all

Alpha,
(and for Sampson too...)
I have never attepmted an obbe from somewhere else but a dream...I mean, I simply cannot go for an obbe by using relaxation, meditation...or any other system which starting point is being awake and fully conscient.
(who knows, maybe I should try harder)And I really admire people who can do so, I think it requires lots of concentration and will...And I´m rather the classic mediterranean lazy type of guy[:I]
But I cannot call my obbes something spontaneous either...becouse it´s clear I go for them, but always from a LD as starting point.Why is it so? I really don´t know. How do I do it, you ask? I really don´t know either..is just how it goes: I become lucid (at the beggining I was using the looking at hands method, but I found that is not really necessary)and as soon as I am aware of myself(lucid) , the dream stops abruptly and I am in full vibration pulling out my body in rtz. The sensation is kind of nice, well, it is extremely nice ! But sometimes I just cannot fully pull out becouse I get scary , concentration fails and I wake up in the middle of the pulling out...and then it turns a really disgusting feel, is really disgusting to wake up in full separation process ! I hope I can get better at it and keep my control all over the process.
Maybe I should start attempting obbes from a fully awake state, becouse I never know when I will have a lucid dream and with an awake method I could go for them whenever I wanted...but It seems I will have to get busy on it and as I said I am pretty lazy.[]
I agree with Sampson in that LD and obbes are pretty similar from a overall conscience point of view.But I think they are different enough so they are normally considered diferent things.My obbes are in rtz, have vibrations and pulling out sensations that LD don´t have(or at least I don´t feel, which is pretty much the same for the matter)

hey, cheers for all !

Hi there,
Yes, I really think there should be a forum called the " ¿What the hell was that ?! " forum. For all those mixed up things.[]
Now, more seriously:
I had the same thing happening to me some times , and its confusing indeed. But, you know, is not so confusing if you don´t try to classify it in a certain definition . I know this sounds pretty simplistic, but I´m very keen of simplification when it comes to put experiences into words. Words are so few...and experiences so many !  So, if you don´t try to put it in a category so badly, you´ll  hopefully take half the confusion away.
And which is more important:  You won´t ignore details of the experience just becouse you fail to put it in words !

Talking a bit about your,(and ours), experience,( so called the other half of the confusion):
My LD have been pretty short, becouse I go for OOB as soon as I become lucid. Why?I don´t know. I mean, normally,as soon as I become lucid, the dream stops  and I start the pulling out  process.
This apparently logical succession of events let  me  identify LD and OOB  as somehow  separate things.
But things got blurry  when ,after becoming lucid in a dream, thus expecting the dream to stop, it didn´t ! And the OOB maneuver took place inside the dream. The OOB separating feel (vibrations and such things) where there, but somehow in a less intense manner. Also, the lucidity seemed to be less intense...
I must say that ,although interesting, I didn´t like it as much as my previous LD and OOB put one after the other as separate things.My OBBe´s have been short for me too,(no more than separating a few seconds) but damn intense and clear. And I didn´t like it so much becouse ,as I said, both (the LD and OOB) were somehow diluted, blurry,...It was like an in-between experience...somehow I felt a lack of  the energy to work things out. And so far, this is the conclusion I have taken from the experience, lack of energy. Lack of control.
  Again, I don´t know !  It´s something new for me too, and I agree with you that is worth exploring; not so much for the feel of it, which as I said I didn´t like as much as other experiences, but for trying to work things out next time.There´s a lot to learn !

Cheers,
Loco

This "look at your hands" method  should be top rated in the LD manuals !  Is really amazing how well works for most of us.
My first lucid dream was thanks to this.
Jarthur,
I gave it a try becouse I read it in a Castaneda book: "The Art of dreaming" It was incredible...You look at your hands and...voilà !, lucid! Castaneda books were interesting till then, but after that they became something huge...what was just an amusing read became true...weird feel.
Anyway,Don Juan (Castaneda´s guide) says in the book that looking at your hands is a subterfuge.That what really counts is that you´re giving a purpose to a ,otherwise, regular dream, and getting control over it.
I have also become lucid by other means,but this hands things is really amazingly effective.

Cheers

quote:Originally posted by Adkha

It may sound weird...but it is not totally clear to me if there is a reason why we can/should learn to Project.

-What about curiosity as a starting point?

I'm reading Astral Dynamics and sofar I haven't come to one single reason or purpose of OBE and AP.

I know it is great to AP and a wonderfull feeling. But I dig sex too...but sex has a clear purpose.

-This is maybe becouse you visit too much the red light district..[] this sexual liberalism you have over there might be adictive [] No ofense intended, really. I lived in Amsterdam for some good time and is really grat!
You like sex? Sure, me too. But I couldn´t tell what feels better, really.Anyway, they are compatible in the right mesure. Unless you want to become an authority in either OBE or SEX ,in which case you´ll probably pick a more focused line in your live...but that will go by itself, I think.

What do you think you can achieve with AP?
-Pure joy

TOT ZIENS !

(sorry about this small typo, I have messed things up whith the "quote" thing !)

Hey!
I don´t know if this topic is still alive or not.
Anyway, I was reading it and had to post becouse the same thing happened to me a few days ago.
It´s been quite long since my last obe [])... So when I had a dream a few days ago about me having an OBE I was excited thinking my OBEs would come back soon...But after some days I thought that was sort of fantasy dream from my side...maybe a bit like when you dream having sex with that friend of you or something like that, you know. So I didn´t give it any deeper meaning;for me it was just a dream. Hey! a cool one anyway[]
Cheers