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Time and time again, over the last 20-25 years, I have come across people who were absolutely convinced of their important cosmic destiny based upon something some non-earthly being told them. This contact most often occured during an OBE.

Often, but not always, it is a group of "aliens" that told them they were one of a group of "chosen one's" who had incarnated on earth this time to help introduce humanity to the rest of the galactic neighborhood. Only problem is that the promised landing, contact, enlightenment, event, etc. never comes as it was supposed to. It sometimes takes years before the victim figures it all out, and realizes that they were chosen for a joke, rather than some important cosmic destiny. The general message is "hey, guess what! you are really a lot more spiritually important and advanced than you thought you were! You're one of the chosen one's!"

Time and time again have I seen, over time, how these people will slowly start to have other experiences that suggest that in fact, they did had some sort of joke played on them. As if they were victims of prankster astral inhabitants.

In no way am I suggesting that OBE contacts always result in nothing more than becoming tricked and fooled, but this is an issue I have not seen addressed in many places, and it is indeed real. One reason may be that many people in the New Age and other movements and groups are still young, and have not seen enough evidence for this yet. Anybody remember the "One World Family" headed by Michael somebody or other? This was my first experience of this, I knew many of them personally.
I am quite sure that if you met one of them today they would confirm what I am saying. It is not limited to groups however, and I am not talking about a cult phenomenon, but something that in fact most often happenes to individuals, who remain silent about it.

No question about it, there realy are very beautiful and advanced souls here, and sure, you may be one of them, and you may have met some bretheren on the other side who confirmed your loftly spiritual status. There is no question however, that some peoples desire to be considered important (via the ego that we all have, and that I myself undoubtedly succumed to in even writing this post) is being taken advantage of by astral pranksters.

Certainly one can have an important psychic contact via OBE that benefits one immensely, but in the cases where persons were seemingly fooled they all said "no! I can tell the difference! I would intuitively know if this was a lie!" As a possible example I suggest to you "Heavens Gate" the group that all commmited suicide because of their "chosen one" instructions. There have been many many more examples.

Any comments?
Dashour

Thanks to all who responded regarding my questions earlier about thinking and stilling the mind. Below is something I came upon that Robert Bruce wrote (author of our favorite book), that I found very helpful and mabey some of you others will also:

"It is possible to enter the trance state while thinking, but it takes much longer and your thoughts 'change' in quality.  Your thoughts wind down and slow and you start thinking on a different level, with the deeper mind. Your surface mind thinks trivial thoughts that just pop into your head. This is the level you need to shut down. 99% of the OBE experiences of people you read of do not make a full wake induced exit, but have spontaneous or semi spontaneous exits. To make a wake induced exit, the surface mind, all thoughts, must be
stilled during the exit stage.

Think of thoughts, at this time, to be like the clutch of a car.  If the clutch is out, it is 'engaged' and this makes it almost impossible to change gears (impossible to obe exit). But if the clutch is in 'disengaged' then the gears can be changed (the obe exit is achievable). We all do use our deeper mind to think with, during trance and during OBE, but not during the exit stage.

Deeper thinking does not generally use words, but feelings and impressions. This is a bit like housework.  If you go into your bedroom to clean it, while you move about picking stuff up and washing and vacuuming, you don't say verbally in your mind 'now I'll wipe that surface', or 'I'd better vacuum the corners', you just 'do' it.  You did think about it, but not in words.

In trance, or in OBE (after the exit), you 'can' think, but most of what you think is deeper and more related to the action of doing rather than internal dialog. The trick to keeping an obe more objective is to keep your surface mind clear so you are totally focused on where you are and what you are doing, and not on what you did yesterday or will do tomorrow."

In the book, it is made clear that "stopping the internal dialog" is a prerequisite to success. I can easily understand that, and I am definitely able to completely stop all the chatter in my mind for short periods, but not for extended periods of time. I have always thought that my problem is that I am not doing this "mind stilling" perfectly enough.


HOWEVER: From everything else I read, it seems that those who are successful with an OBE are doing anything but keeping a "still surface mind". Talking to people in the astral plane, shouting "geronimo" to go through an astral doorway, thinking about where they are and where to go next, etc. How does that jive with the "no thinking?" In some parts of the book, Robert makes it clear how very important this non-thinking meditative state is, but then in other parts, he describes what he was thinking as he was leaving, or already out. This is very confusing to me. How can you maintain this clear mind, but then still have all the thoughts that everybody is describing that they have, during their OBE?

When exactly is this "clear surface mind" necessary, and when is it not? Do you need to have no thoughts whatsoever when you are in the trance and when you are leaving the body, but then, once out, you can start "thinking" again? Or, am I making this more important than it needs to be and in fact you really do not have to have a perfectly clear surface mind at all, or?

Please help, somebody.

Many heart felt thanks to anybody who responds.
Dashour

HELP! Please!

Every time I get close, I am afraid that once I get out, I will not know what to do about breathing. That scares me.

When you are out, do you "breath"? If not, how does it feel to be conscious, but not breathing? Isn't that scary? That is my fear: being out, but then not having a body, not being able to breath. I have never heard anybody mention this yet anywhere. I have just ordered Astral Dynamics, but it hasn't come yet. Perhaps this fear is discussed in the book?  I am sure if I can just get a grip on that, everything else will be OK. Can anybody please advise me regarding this?

Has anybody else experienced this fear, and overcome it?

Thanks heaps, I'm very excited to have found a place where I can even ask this question.

jack

Thanks for your reply. I guess we better bail on this thread, too long, and it has become more of a personal dialog, but thanks for your continued responses.  Sorry to hear about your back, but sounds like you incorporate it all very well. Keep up all the good advice in this forum, I myself have gleened some very good things from many of your other posts. You and Frank are the two that have actualy inspired me the most!

Cheers,
Dashour (jack, actually)

Hey Mobius! Relax, take a deep breath! You really do need to read just a little bit slower my friend. I have gone out of my way to firstly apologize to you if indeed I mistook you for the person who used the words "bigoted and predjudiced".  I then offered an explanation of how and why I made that honest mistake. Then later on in the text, I specifically stated that I was not directly accusing any of the posters of anything.  Further, regarding religion, I used this as an ANOLOGY to the politcal stance issue, not as the example you treated it to be. It was a literary device, a simile. In other words, "This........., is like......"

This last post of yours gives me the impression that you have missed all that, and feel attacked.  Don't worry, I love you! Words are very powerfull symbols, as you already know, and I honestly think that it would benifit you to go a bit slower if you chose to reread all that. You are jumped to conclusions, and read things into my words that I did not mean, and reading an attack that I did not commit. I meant that bit about "immature judgements" in a general way, a statement relating to the issue that I wanted to comment on, not a reference to your personal comments. (!)

Love, Devotion, Surrender,
Dashour

Mobius, forgive me if it was not you who originally called Atlas bigoted and ignorant. My statement was only an attempt to defend what I felt was an unfair statement against him. I have indeed tried to go back and read all the other posts, but my server is real slow here in Indo..........

I am tempted to explain further what I said about capitalism, because most people, as Atlas accurately said, misunderstands that this is a philosophy, not a movement. The definition of Capitalism is not "the effort of big multinational corporations to take over the world". I too, am vehemently opposed to this!  But, I am 100% a capitalist, because I have studied and every other choice, and realize that NO system is by itslef going to solve our worldy problems for us. Only by ourselves overcoming greed and dishonesty and pride and lust will we solve our problems. In a society of fully aware, honest, kind, sharing, compassionate and generous individuals, Capitalism is a beautiful philosophy, and the only one that makes spiritual sense. It does not matter to me that my New Age peers who have never say, read Ayn Rand, or seriously studied Capitalism as a philosophy, would prefer to just spout the latest accepted colloquial wisdoms.  

However: I will from now on stick to the subject related to OBE, as otherwise it is unfair to the other readers, so sorry everybody about previous deviations.

So, The question is: Can two different people have radically different political beliefs and still both be very successful at OBE? My answer would be absolutely, yes, no question about it. Anybody who presumes that one particular politcal stance is somehow more "spiritually correct" and therefore those with that stance will naturally be more sucessfull at OBE, IMHO, is sadly predjudiced and narrow minded. That reeeks of "my religion is better than yours, and God is going to prove it by giving me more access to higher states of consciousness than you will achieve"

I cannot for the life of me imagine a conscious universe that so limits our inate abilites in this way. Our success at OBE most certainly does depend upon our beliefs regarding OBE itself - nearly everybody with even a little experience with this knows the deep connection between one's subconscious programming and success. But to make a suggestion that another persons success would go much faster if he adopted one's own politics seems a bit immature to me. I am not accusing anybody here of doing such a thing, but some have come quite close to that in this thread.  

Love, devotion, surrender,
Dashour

Mobius and Atlas's exchange on political views has some merit, as it brought up the issue of can or can we not have differing philosophies and still have OBE's. I occasionaly (albeit rarely) have OBE's, but I am with Atlas all the way. Sorry, I do not see at all that he is closed minded or predjudiced. In fact, of all the posters, he seems to have the most potential for not being fooled by the astral reality shifts that so many others are mislead by. I am surprised by all you posters who do nto recognize that it is precisely Atlas's arttitude that is necessary in order to avoid being mislead in the astral world!  He should be encouraged by this, not dismissed as a debunker, for christ's sake!

In my opinion (just opinion!) Mobius is the more bigoted and politically ignorant of the two of them, adopting the common anti-establishment pose of "if it's big, itis evil" and making the common mistake of confusing the abuses of a system for the system itself. Mobius, surely you would agree that TRADE is a good thing, no? If I made windchimes and you made digeridoos (sp?) and I wanted to trade one of mine for one of yours, surely THAT would be OK in your anti-establishment world view, no? If you would agree with that statement, then you do not understand capitalism at all, and I urge you to study it further as a philosophy rather than to mistake it for the results of man's abuse of politics and power.  If you would temporary abandon your predjudice to this deeply spiritual and karmically correct way of fairly exchanging goods and services, I believe that you may find that you have been mislead by your peers into thinking that Capitalism is McDonalds, or Phillip Moris. It is not. It is merely a transformation of trade, (yours for mine), up one demensional level to where this trading system works better and more efficiently for everybody! In other words, what if I do not want a digeridoo, but you DO want a windchime? Capitalism has done far more for humanity than any other system of creative expression and invention. Don't blame the virus's (abusers) for the great program they infiltrated (Capitalism)!

I truly believe that CIA and the NSA is abusing and misusing psychic abilities. Does that mean that the systems we use for inducing OBE's and psychic development are morally wrong? Of course not. In such as case, we clearly see where the blame lies. Not in the system but in the people! Don't make the same mistake with capitalism.

Cheers,
Dashour
Atlas, keep shrugging.

Hello everybody. I have had a passion for theoretical physics for about 6 years now, and have read about a dozen books for the layman about this subject. Of all the scientific disciplines, theoretical physics comes the closest to the culture, language, concepts and attitudes of OBE researchers and experimenters.

An absolutely excellent read is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. It is based upon the findings of Nobel prize winning neurologist Carl Pribam, and one of Quantum mechanics founding fathers, Theoretical Physicist David Bohm. Bost of these brave men were "our kind of guys".

They both felt and taught that the universe was consciousness based. They also felt that the universe was a kind of gigantic hologram, with thought being at once the "projector", and the "screen", and the "light", and the hologram itself, all at the same time. Moreover, they pondered that perhaps this is a universe of "holograms within holograms" - perhaps to no end, and all of it, in reality, one gigantic consciousness.

It is their ideas, at least as much as any eastern mystics, Yogis, or OBE researchers, that have helped me to understand the "astral, release lucid dream, release higher plane," demensions that we all on this forum long to explore more deeply. The "hologram within a hologram" idea goes a very long way to explaining all the confusing aspects of consciousness that we all seem to be experiencing in simliar but unique ways.

Love, Devotion, Surrender,
Jack FRC

Adrian - yes, I understand the idea of turning it in to a full fledged OEB, but my problem that I have with every lucid dream is that once I am lucid, it's like "Hey! YAHOO! I did it! WOW, look at that thing over there! Look at that mountain, or whatever. "OK I'm gonna fly now" (so I start flapping my arms - hey - it works) "I'm flying like a bird! WEeeee!"

You see, I am having way too much fun to go "OK, let's calm down now and try for a OBE".

Not wanting to let go of one reality in order to to enter and realize a possibly more rewarding one, is a basic problem of consciousness, and all spiritual disciplines, no?

Love, devotion, surrender,
Dashour

Hello Adrian, and Frank and who ever else can answer-

Thanks for the reply to my questions about early morning/waking up etc. What I am getting at, but still a bit confused about, is this:

TOO SLEEPY, CAN SOMEBODY HELP?
1. When I wake up in the early morning, also naturaly, like Frank does, if I just continue to lie in bed and try to project, I feel like I am "drugged".  In other words, still so sleepy that it is hard to concentrate or focus at all on anything. So, I find that I have to get up and fully wake up first. However, if I do that, then I fear I lose the whole point of doing it early like that to take advantage of the naturally relaxed trance state that sleep gives us. Any comments?
Frank, does it hurt to wake one's self up fully, or should that be avoided, and should I learn to work with the sleepy drugged feeling, and take advantage of it the way it is?

WAKING UP AFTER 6 HOURS FOR A LUCID DREAM
2. I have tried several times in the past the technique of waking up after 6 hours, staying awake for 20-30 minutes and reading something related to this subject, then going back to sleep to induce a kucid dream. This technique definately has worked for me. Not every time, but a high percentage, and I highly recommend it. It is described in the book by Rick Stack called "Out of Body Adventures".

Regards,
Jack (Dashour)

Hey Frank! Or anyone else! -

I have been trying your "raise the eyes/consciousness" technique with some encourging signs while sitting down and meditating.

Questions:

1. You say you do this in the early morning. I have also been trying that. From what state/position do you start? Do you wake up, continue to lie in bed without getting up, and just go right into it? Or, do you wake yourself up a bit first, and then lie back down and try it?

2. Reason I am asking is that when I wake up, at say 4:30AM, if I just continue to lie there in bed and jump right into the technique, I seem to be too much in a sleep daze, or something. Hard to concentrate.

If I get up, putter around a bit, take a shower even, and then try it sitting in my chair, I seem to be more easily able to enter a trance/meditative state. Well, that is if I am understanding any of this at all to begin with, haha.  

Comments? Thanks heaps.

Thanks everybody very much for your replies. I do understand that the relaxation and NEW techniques do not require a still mind. In fact, Robert does indeed say that it is not necessary to be in a trance state (thus, not necesary to have this clear surface mind) to do the energy raising or relaxation exercises.

However, in chapter 16, called "Taming the Mind" he makes it pretty clear how important this is for the trance state. The whole chapter is devoted to it. On page 210 he gives a chart showing exactly what "clear surface mind" means, using the thought of buying your cat a new collar. It seems very clear to me from this chart that he means for you to completely subdue all thoughts. He then says on page 227, in the chapter called "The Trance State":

"Entering the trance state requires three things: deep physical relaxation, a clear surface mind, and a mental technique"

Anybody else have some advice/experience?

Thanks again,
Dashour

I have great news for you! The many treatise that Robert has written about OBE are right here on this site and are actually what the book is based on! You can download them right from this site, for free, and read to your hearts content. Also the NEW techniques are here too.  

I did buy the book as well, and I am half way through it, and if you can get the book, even better, and I do recommend it. However, most of the major points are in the papers he wrote. You really could go a long ways with just those.

peace to all,
Asallammualaikum,
Dashour
(A yogi, not a Muslim, but you have a great religion my friend, and I live in the largest Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, so I can relate to your situation.)

The ancient Incas had this definition of God:

"That which does to the universe what the soul does to the body."


If you think about this simple statement, you will see what a wealth of subtle and profound insight and truth it can reveal. To begin with, we are part of this universe...........

Dashour