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Hello,

I was wondering if anyone has this problem and if there is anything that can be done about it.

This has more to do with the hypnogogic state than OBE.  When I take a nap or early in the mornings I notice I'll be thinking about things and at some point the thoughts change into images.  The deeper into the state I go the more inexplicable the images become.  My problem is that if I wake myself up I'm completely unable to vocalize what I was thinking or even what the image looked like.  It doesn't seem that I'm just forgetting what I was thinking or seeing, it's just that I don't think my conscious mind is able to understand it.  Is there any way to bridge the gap.  Right now I'm just trying to refine my awareness by entering this state in a more controlled way.

I'm fairly new to intentional projection and I was wondering if I am getting close to a trance state or a projection state.  I have occasional success at lucid dreaming and oobe after waking but that's not what I want to focus on.  I am writing about attempting to go from a fully awake state to a trance to projection.  Hopefully someone can tell me if I'm getting close or possibly explain what I am doing when attempting this.  

Generally I become relaxed through some method but instead of feeling a heavy feeling I develop an indistinct feeling.  I can't tell if my arms are at my side or crossed or spread out.  The same goes with my legs. It's as if I was sinking into my bed. If I focus on my toes the indistinct feeling becomes very strong and starts moving up my legs.  Sort of like I was being inflated like a balloon.

Occasionally I will get a surging feeling and see white light and hear a loud ringing.  I assume this is getting close to the projection state or maybe a seizure(wouldn't that be cool!  Turning myself into an epileptic, no not really).  I don't project at that time but I have a floating feeling.  At that point, if I focus between my eyes I will get a strong pleasurable, tingling sensation that moves through my physical being.  This is where I fall asleep or I hang out in this state for a while and then get up and eat.    

Any insight will be helpful.

Here's an exercise for strengthening concentration and focus that I discovered or was given to me in a dream.  

Imagine a metallic ball about the size of a marble.  It is being pulled away from you by a magnet.  I usually visualize this in front of my forhead a foot or two to start.  (It might help to visualize a string attached to it)  Try to hold it steady with your mind.  Once you are able to keep it there increase the strength of the magnet that is pulling on it.  Play around with various distances and move the ball between 2 and six feet away from you.  Let it go out/ reel it back.  Play around with it.

Doing this kind of energy work can cause all kinds of weird things to happen.  I agree with another person who said to try not to be afraid.  To put it into perspective, a mouse can move your door and probably much stronger than any non-physical entity you are likely to encounter.  Look at it as an etheric vermin problem.  Unless butcher knives start flying around I wouldn't bee too worried about it.

I felt almost exactly the same way you do when I was growing up.  I was also interested in metaphysics occultism and all of the stuff on this website.  Even when I was 4 or 5 I felt really different.  If I can offer any advice it would be to learn to really appreciate who you are.  I know it sounds corny but I think your frustration is due to the fact that you want to be a part of the gang but the gang is retarded.  If you can accept and love yourself you wont be angry at others for not accepting or, more likely, understanding you.  Self understanding isn't just something for fat people on Oprah; it's also the gateway to spirituality.  (Even if your a total butt, accept that)  At the most basic level, you don't owe anything except to yourself.  

Eventually, the people you find boring and one dimensional now will become good friends and/or sources of entertainment.  Perhaps you will marry a complete lamer because that's what you need to balance out your eccentricities.  One thing is for certain.  A person's most basic emotional need is for love and acceptance.  If they can't get that no happiness can follow.  

So anyway, do whats right for you and try to appreciate the  normal people for their own uniqueness.  Also keep in mind, conformity is extremely important for the socialization of adolescents.  You wont see peoples freaky side until they are  a little older and brave enough to express it.  
     

 

Maybe someone who is good at this sort of thing should project a Mr. Rork figure and Tattoo.  Remember? The guys from fantasy island.  "Smiles, everyone.  Smiles."

I just thought the original poster's comment was a little ironic.  

But I think "imaginary" things have their own reality.  For instance, someone may have a fear of heights which is based on the imagining of falling.  The fear has a real psychological significance and could be given sensible form in the dream state.  

I would describe what you are talking about as imaginary as bad or delusional logic.  Connecting things causally that have no such relationship.

---Two, this is related, but I feel that to really commit to magic I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING, so does anybody know a harmless spell that a novice to magic could do?---

Imagination, image and magic share the same root.  To practice magic the most important tool is your imagination.  

That's a cool technique.  I didn't project but I did go quite deeply into the hypnogogic state.  I felt the vibes a couple of times but I didn't quite let go enough.  I did have some really interesting dreams though.  I'll keep trying.

I've never messed around with Enochian but I've heard it's dangerous.  Lots of weird stories about possession, enslavement and hauntings caused by using it.  So, I guess, be careful.  

That said, there's an Enochian Tarot that may be useful for projection.  "The Vision and the Voice" by Crowley is his record of his work with Enochian.

I have a few friends I'll talk to it about.  One of them used to do it years ago but quit because he liked restful sleep.  The other is my neighbor, a pretty serious drinker.  Alchoholics are prolific OBE'ers and LD'ers.  

I'll mention it kind of nonchalantly to anyone if I think they might be open to it.  If so, I'll get more in depth.  I actually want to find out which of my friends would be willing to put serious time into developing their skills.  

Cool experience Jeff!  It's always inspiring to read others peoples experiences.  

I want to comment on your note about fixing your gaze on something as being essential to getting out.  I very much agree with this.  I think by focusing the mind like that, we allow our intention to project come to the surface.  It appears to be the crucial point of any type of magic.  By stilling the monkey-mind we clear the way for our passive will to express itself.  What's nice is that this crucial task only takes about a second or two.  After that the process we are trying to accomplish is put into motion.  I have noticed this when I project or create any kind of current in the astral(perform a ritual).    

I recently read W E Butlers "The Magician:  His Training and Work".  It's a great book.  One of the most lucid expositions on magic I've read and it's short too.  It does have a Christian bias which I don't mind - some might.  Anyway he describes ways of constructing rituals so that the mind is over and over brought to this state of single mindedness.  If you are trying to project directly from waking maybe something like that (creating a ritual/at least a mental pattern of imagery) might work.  I'm working on it as well but it's slow going.  If I find a method that works for me, I'll post it.  

Yes, Nice post Phanuel.  

Now I'll try.

The astral, including RTZ, conforms to what we expect to see.  That is it's nature I would say.  It is a deciever!  Not in a bad way, it's just that it conforms to thought.  This isn't stressed enough and could be the cause of much delusion.  I will repeat this to make my point.  The astral plane will decieve you!  The astral plane will decieve you!  I have literally laughed in dreams as the characters act out my personal opinions.  I could look at it as validation of the opinions but I realized that it was the astral light conforming to my expectations.  I have been amazed at the clarity with which the astral has expressed my preconceptions.    

If you keep this in mind while oob I think that you can try to determine what is objective and what is subjective.  I think that ideas about planes and levels of reality are useful but I think they may also just be the astral molding to our expectations.  What is thinking?  What are we pursuing as we chase down and work out thoughts?  I believe we are simply painting pictures with the astral light.    

OOB, AP, All of this seems to be the sensory perception of thoughts and emotions.  Not that they don't have an objective existence though.  We do communicate....Some better than others(as I look at the incongruent mess I just created).

Well having an OBE isn't really "seeing" because your eyes are shut.  

I don't think Jesus was saying "believe it because I said so".  That would just be bizarre and illogical, bordering on sadistic.  He was saying that there is a deeper way of knowing than through the senses.

I guess they could just be subconscious effluvia.  Random thoughts emanating from our thought patterns.  

What is meaning anyway?  I'd say that something has meaning  if we are able to incorporate it into our cognitive framework or relate it to stuff we already "know".   If I say "I saw  a purple dog in my dream."  We can give it meaning.  We have knowledge of sight, purple and dog.  If I say "99 re;lk \\# - oisdf*//r" it has no meaning because it is too different from what we "know".  If it is too different from what we already "know" then we have no way of incorporating it into our general body of knowledge.  If we can't follow a chain of associations to it we can't access it consciously.  

Hopefully I'm making sense because now I have some questions.  Is it possible to build up "knowledge" in a way completely unrelated to our concept of ego, body or self?  What would this perception be like?  Does consciousness have to have an "I"?  Just food for thought....Buddhist food  

I find it interesting that so many people are putting down sociology when sociology has much more of an effect on them than any magic they might perform.  In fact, any magical changes that one is likely to produce occur within the context of a social framework.  Magic, and even quantum physics could be considered subsets of sociology.

I think the problem is that people don't have a real understanding of what sociology is.  Ultimately, it is math.  The highest levels of statistical analysis(probably the only branch of mathematics that will be able to predict quantum behavior) have been created for the analysis of social and cultural trends.  The obvious reason for this is because there is no laboratory large enough to experiment with a culture(or is there???).  Hence the need for multivariant statistics.

http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/tutorial/flynn/multivar.htm

See the above link for an explanation.

Anyway, I do agree that people who read sociology books and some crappy sociologists are annoying and are most likely trying to use the data to justify prejudices.  I just thought that sociology was getting unfair treatment.  No, I'm not a sociologist.  I just had to learn statistics(SAS, SPSS) and it was taught by the sociology department.

Why do these forums make me want to argue?  They really bring out a strange mixture of credulousness and know-it-all-ism.

It sounds like you're on the right track.  I don't know about the sick feeling though.  You might want to stop if that persists.  Recently I get a sinking/spinning feeling and then go rigid.  When rigid then I can leave.  Just keep doing what your doing and allow yourself to sink deeper into it.

Male, you must be joking....Wooooo!!!

How about you acquire a sense of humor.

I meant the first one.  That second one is top-notch.  What's he doing to Bush's head?  Implanting thoughts?  

Maybe he's creating some 4-d ki vortex to attract transyuggothians.

Professional job???  That looks like crap.  Photoshop is capable of this and much more.

I think we are just mesmerized/fascinated by our dreams.  Especially if they are embodiments of our repressed desires, fears, etc...  Very similar to day dreams but without physical reality to distract us.  

I think waking up like in a nightmare is a reaction of our mind not wanting to accept what the subconscious is giving it.  It follows that part of the key to lucid dreaming or at least getting good at it is the ability to face anything the subconscious throws at us without having an uncontrollable reaction to it.

This is kind of a lame answer but falling asleep is a good technique.  The reason is that when asleep you become extremely relaxed; relaxed enough to go into the rigid/paralysis state befor your mind has time to get bored and wander.  The hard part is to not go back to sleep at this point.  

The rest of the technique is:
Once awake, to let your passive will (imagine it [actually don't even imagine anything]as a kind older person) take you into the trance state.  Don't TRY, LET it happen.  Enjoy the relaxation and let yourself go into it further.

When I had my experience I asked some friends who were more familiar with this stuff (AP/Magic)what the shadow person was about.  They just said that these beings were checking me out becuase I was "making waves" so to speak.

Probably one of the first LD/AP/OBE experiences I had was one of these.  I was lying in bed asleep but noticed I could look around my room.  I saw a shadowy figure next to my bed and wondered what it was.  It then appeared to put it's hands on my chest and I couldn't breath.  I had to fight to wake up and start breathing again.  

I was pretty angry about that even though the creature didn't emanate a presence of evil or anything.  Oh yeah, I wasn't on drugs at the time.

I enjoyed it.  I like the fact that you emphasize perseverence.  Most of the stuff I've read has been by people who naturally have projected since they were 4 or something.  It's good to know that there are competent projectors that actually had to work at it.  My effrots are sporadic but I'm getting many different flavors of experience.  For instance I heard the most interesting music yesterday while trying to project but I digress...
You show alot of insight, especially for being only 17.

I guess if I have to give some constructive criticism, it seems that you say some things that don't matter whether or not you say them.  You might say stuff like "it doesn't matter what I say you'll find out for yourself when you do it".  That's kind of a given.  You may just be stressing that it depends on personal experience so that's ok.  Maybe don't say it so much.

Overall nice job!