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I have to ask what would be the difference if it was our joint perception or an objective change?

It matters a great deal, because if it's outside our minds, we can't alter
reality in the same way, as it's externally to us.

We have to plan our actions differently.

Either way it showed us that physical matter is not solid as we might believe it but subject to change either at a molecular level or by a shift of consciousness that can perceive its true nature or another version of its true nature. Both point to the same conclusion, physical matter is an illusion.

It still leaves a lot more questions, than if it was just an alteration of your state of mind.

If you really think it was reality changing at molecular level, who initiated it?
How was it done on every every molecule, who restored it and how was
physical matter restored?

...we both witnessed it exactly the same, so that points to the phenomena being of a physical nature. But again even if it was through clairvoyance, it points to the same reality. Its just either perceived via the eyes or the mind...is one more real than the other?
Also through clairvoyance that which we perceive objectively or subjectively in our mind would not be fixed in location ie it would shift with our minds. But instead it continued to happen there at one area of the room..and was still going on after I got up walked through the mist into the kitchen got us a drink and came back and sat of the sofa and continued to watch the show...at which we both laughed out loud !!

You sure were two cool persons. I would have shlt my pants.

Anyway, I have to give you credit for those details as they talk in favor of your theory.

Ten years ago I was in spain and a friend and I witnessed the physical matter in her house shift vibrate and dissolve into a cloud of mist!! the walls, tables chairs, etc all wobbled visually, vibrated and disappeared! We were then privileged to be greeted by a half hour display of spirit people manifesting in the room enshrouded in a mist of purple and gold light.

But something more must have happened, to make you think this way?

Because you could as well just have entered an altered state of consciousness,
similar to the reality fluctuations people experience in the RTZ. Why do you
think it was physical reality which dissolved and not just you, who moved
into a nonphysical world, while physical reality still remained unchanged
on Earth (in Spain)?

I guess the walls, tables etc were not gone forever once your state of mind
returned to normal?

What did make you draw the conclusion that physical reality was an illusion,
which dissolved in front of your eyes and not just you and your friend
entering an altered state of consciousness, being temporarily
somewhere else?

Was there something which induced your altered state of consciousness,
something like meditations or drugs?

Totally agree xanth, this world is with out a shadow of a doubt an illusion of the senses.

What do you base this theory on, what kind of experience?

The high crime rates in some places of the US and the authorities poor
job of doing anything against it, leads me to wonder if the leaders
want criminals and thus more weapons to circulate. It's a circle.

Such sensations may come and go over the months. According to one channelled entity,
the first three years, they are felt the most. Continued practice over time, will reduce
the intensity of those sensations. They can be felt in any nonphysical practice like
healing or RVing. Those sensations are said to be many things, including signs of
nonphysical development, opening emotional blockages, helping other entities or
previous lives, etc.

So, first question: Am I getting into SP or not?

No, not SP, according to my experience. You are feeling the "vibrational state",
which many report being associated with early stages before OBE. Some may feel
the vibrational state, and never OBE, some may OBE without ever feeling vibrations.

Sleeping until you're rested is not wrong. So go to sleep during the day.
Wake up naturally. Do this during the day.

Once you're fully rested, go up, only stay up for no more than an hour.
This have kept me fully awake. Lay down, close your eyes and wait.
You'll not fall asleep.

I don't guarantee any OBE, but most likely you'll get some kind of
experience after a few tries. Keep your attention relaxed and open
for anything, like "knowings", impressions etc. I tend to keep the
room as lit as possible at this time, even if I close my eyes.

If you get into sleep paralysis (SP), welcome it. Be calm, and just
look with your eyes (physically open) at the point most distant
from you. Then a little joyful, a little focused, think to yourself
"Forward, Forward!" and imagine yourself moving forward.

As you're physically paralysed something may happen nonphysically. :)

I thought personal arms were to protect yourself from criminals or outside
enemies, not the government? The US government probably doesn't
trust their own people that much, why else have electoral votes
instead of presidential election by direct democracy?

If we go back to the Higgs boson, the scientists say that they have not found the Higgs boson,
they've found one Higgs boson out of many possible bosons. And as they don't know the
exact properties of the Higgs boson, there is still possibility that the Standard Model will
fall. There are other QM models which predict up to 5 different kinds of particles similar
to the Higgs boson.

The problem is that the scientists collide protons, which in the moment of collision may have
their quarks aligned non-optimally. The collisions result in a very huge range of energies,
so the collider can only be regarded as crude measuring tool to a worth
of € 7.5 billion.

They will build a better toy next time. :)

...being pulled (falling) to Omega a "blackhole" which as feasted on many universes until it becomes to "heavy" and drops into a lower dimension and "pops" this is Alpha "whitehole" which spews all it as fed on...

We are once again falling towards the Omega. (There are no whiteholes in any single universe as there is not enough mass to make the omega).

Dark holes seem to remain, as their matter in their centres exert gravitational pull.
And why do you think we are falling towards Omega? Isn't dark energy actually
accelerating the push of galaxies away from each other?

Could you define what you mean with "dimension" and particular "lower dimension"?

...If dark matter is anti matter, matter and light would be pushed away...

No.

Dark matter can't be anti-matter as:

1. Anti-matter can be detected in a similar way to regular matter.
2. Over time regular matter would become destroyed by anti-matter, the galaxies would be gone.

Also:

3. Dark matter is not electrically charged (as is some antimatter like the positron and negatron).

The last point is important as it results in regular matter forming into discs
in the shape of spiral galaxies. Dark matter will instead form into cigar shapes,
following the axis of the galaxy. This has been assumed by the reason that
when to galaxies merge, or one small galaxy gets swallowed by a bigger
galaxy, the smaller galaxy gets gravitationally drawn to the bigger galaxy
in a way which indicates that the main bulk of mass is along the bigger
galaxy's axis (and the centre of course).

If the speed of light between galaxies changes, some kind of property of the
photons surroundings would have to cause that change. I guess that would
have to be some long range effect which is not really matter related, or
if it is, matter would have to changes its long range effect in some kind of
very odd way, which we can't detect by measurements on our nearest
galaxies, like Andromeda.

My review is here.

... where, exactly did you get the dates 3000-3500 ...

For example pages 206 & 232, FJ. See also page 227, UJ. Pay attention to every detail, question every detail.

[The Phenomena of Astral Projection]

The Phenomena of Astral Projection, 1951, Sylvan J Muldoon & Hereward Carrington

Grade: 8.5


This was probably Muldoon's last book. I think he wrote some articles for papers,
but produced very few books. This last book of his and Carrington's still uses a
very old language which makes the reading somewhat heavy.

The book is a collection of various OBEs and related altered states. I think Muldoon
wanted to raise the interest of the reader to the phenomena of AP. For its time, this
book is very good when I compare to other writings during the first half of the 1900s.

The better and more interesting case studies can be found at the second half of the book.

It surprises me that so many of the later OBEs have the character of the mind-split effect,
where the OBE person sees her/his own body acting while OBE, sometimes moving back
to her/his body and being able to see the nonphysical body hovering in the air at some
distance.

At times there are no true mind-split, but just a bilocation, and at one time even something
which could be viewed as an odd "tripple"-location.

Almost all OBEs described in the book are of the spontaneous type, which make more scientific
oriented activities rather impossible.

There are more examples of OBEs which resembles Monroe looking surroundings
like the Park. The downside of this book is that almost all of the experiences are
in my mind cut too short. Perhaps the originators haven't been aware that it would
have been a good idea to be more detailed?

In this book people reports travels into the astral, meeting guides or dead persons
and having amazing experiences of the physical while OBE.

I think the purpose of the book was to encourage others, more scientific minded people
to do deeper research on the OBE phenomena.

Good as this book is, I give it a high grade, still today I only recommend this book for
those who want to do research on OBEs or want to read old books of historical reasons.

There are no descriptions on how-to OBE other than references to Muldoon's & Carrington's
first book (see my review higher up in this thread) and a few other authors.

It surprises me a little that Muldoon has included so few new OBE experiences of his own
in the book. I wonder what happened to his own further OBE activities.

I would try to check if this cop has done similar things in other cases,
perhaps your lawyer can help you with such a search, to improve
the chances for your case?

Also, I would wear a seat belt as people have been killed by their
airbags as the car slows to a halt and they get their head close to
the airbag before the explosives go off on impact.

What experience do you think would qualify as backing up a theory?
It is a parable.  What do you find false or unfitting about it from
your own experience and theories formed Pauli2?

I thought that was obvious, but if you really don't understand it, let me explain.

What qualifies as backing up a theory?

Answer: Observation.
---


Let me take a well known example. The original question is, when someone goes OBE, is that
all happening in her/his mind only, being a mere illusion or is the OBE really happening,
meaning that the person goes OBE _somewhere_ in the physical world?

Observation.

Before OBE, the person places a playing card without seeing its value, faced up on a high shelf.

Once the person is OBE she/he takes a look at the playing card an memorizes the card's value,
say Queen of Hearts.

Once back in the physical that person picks the card from the high shelf and looks at its value.
If she/he does that on several occasions she/he eventually may come to some kind of conclusion
whether what she/he observes while OBE is similar to the real physical world.

That's not any proof at all, doesn't qualify as evidence, and probably is hard to repeat scientifically,
but it's an experience which may back up any theory. Also, the observation doesn't need to be visual.

voyager13, I've done lots of that.

. . . and to do it today is more-or-less academic exile, so you don't see
too many attempting it unless they are already knee-deep in this stuff.

Yes, but there still should be some wealthy academics who could do those
very simple experiments under controlled forms. Some should have been
able to do those experiments for example, post retirement, but I find
extremely few such examples which holds water.

And there should also exist some wealthy benefactors who would like
to know what's true and fund those experiments, but very few such
success stories can be found.

That's really strange.

I'm quite unskilled in getting LDs, but I've tried to program myself before
bedtime by looking at my hands, my palms mostly.

Then when in a regular dream I may actually be watching "my" hands,
problem is that I don't realize that I'm dreaming. I have even been
able to realize that these hands doesn't look normal, I have had callus
on my dream palms, and been wondering from where I got them. I
even have the idea that this seems very strange, and then I in the
dream conclude that I must have been working hard with my hands.

Result is that I don't go LD even when I see my hands!

And when I become LD I can't prolong the LD by watching my hands,
most of the times I can't even bring my dream-hands into view or
when I do, I wear gloves!

Rubbing my hands together (they feel solid) doesn't prolong my LD either,
when the LD fades and I wake up.

What have you done to go LD in regards of watching your hands and how
do you get to see them in LD?

Does rubbing your dream hands prolong your LD?

Maybe that there is some kind of training involved, because I haven't been
able to turn an LD into an OBE either. Perhaps it is related to energy in some
way too? I've never been able to say it with my normal voice, it has either
been thought only Clarity Now! or my voice have been very mumbled and
deep, unnatural.

A second problem is that I've not been in full control of myself, even when LD,
and that's resulted in me not doing the affirmation more than a few times, when
I probably should have persisted longer. I don't know how to work around that.

Anyway, what does it say about the veracity of the experiments?
It even let's us conclude they might be the 'real thing'.

That report was from the 1980ies, so I would expect someone else to have
been able to reproduce the same experiment, but it also has too much of
the Men staring at goats / Project Stargate feeling.

The amazing results by Charles Tart in the 1960ies have never been reproduced
either, and those where very simple experiments with low costs.

That's strange that no more results have been produced in modern time,
post year 2000.

So, the reasoning which goes like: the teachings were more or less effective,
so who cares about the creadibility of the source, can be dangerous.

Tom Campbell also says that if the data/information you get from something
is helpful to you in some way... why does it matter where it came from?

Well Xanth, I hope you learn something from this...

What is also known, is that about 10 % of all population is susceptible to hypnosis,
these people can easily be duped into believing that they have had an OBE, but
the have merely been under the influence of hypnosis.

And that's perhaps one reason why such a fraud as Steve G Jones manages to make a lot of
money on people's belief that they can have Penis Enlargement and Breast Enlargement by
hypnosis only.

The only drawback is that the effect is not "Lasting and Permanent" as some promotion
pages of the hoaxer Steve G Jones claim. That's a lie.

You have to decide when you're tricking yourself.

The realising that I am awake part happened during the false awakenings. After that I used the mind awake/body asleep state to project.
At this point I was making conscious decisions and all, so again, it does not seem like a dream.

Either it was not a false awakening or I just don't understand you.

A false awakening is when you think you have woken up, but you are
still dreaming, you are in a dream, just regular dreaming. You are
_not_ awake, you are still dreaming in a false awakening.

I think Puali2 that this type request is most often expressed by skeptics.

Not at all.

At one time when Moen asked Monroe about one of the lesser known Focus Levels
(I think it was the Flying Fuzzy Zone), Monroe responded that he didn't know what
it was, then Monroe directed himself to Moen and Monroe said:

"Go find out, then come back and tell me, and we will both know."

Even if anyone were to go and then return and give report of their experience
does not constitute evidence which will prove one theory or another.

I never requested proofs or evidence, I only asked about the experience you got,
which backed up your theory.

... by the Chinese gov/military to dupe the enemy (inner and/or outer enemies)?
Hence the US military here also was duped:

I don't think they were duped.

They were scaring their enemies.

If those children could move an insect or a 3 cc of ice cream into a jar,
why couldn't they move 3 cc of the brain of Brezhnev into a tin can?

Fear is a mighty weapon.