Messages

I've been running a program that plays audio cues to get me to realize I'm dreaming around the time I'm in REM.  I've had it running for a week now with pretty much no results.  I was just wondering if I should even bother keeping it on.  For those of you that are already able to lucid dream.. if it hasn't worked at this point is it going to at all?

Hi,

I'm new to this forum.  I used to LD when I was younger, but I never really knew about it or what it was back then.  Now that I'm older I can't do it anymore, but I have vague memories of doing it when I was young.  Anyway.. I've been trying to get myself to do it again, but I haven't been able to yet.  I started keeping a dream diary, and wrote some software to make it easy to keep the diary and to play sounds to help me realize I'm dreaming around the time I get into REM.  I do find that since I started doing all this, my dream recall has been better.  I find myself remembering more dreams, and also last night my dream seemed to be really vivid... a lot more so than normal.  I was wondering if some of you had a problem getting started with Lucid Dreaming, and if my dream recall becoming better and having more vivid dreams was a sign that I was getting closer to having an LD?  Any input would be appriciated.

[published]

quote:Originally posted by Logic

quote:As far as I know there's no scientific documented data that suggests Telepathy exists

Theres no scientific evidence towards dreaming or the mind either, they are believed to exist, but all that people can justify for that is personal experience. On the other hand, do a search on the stargate fbi files, theres more than substantial evidence built towards the existance of telepathy and remote viewing.
I wasn't 100% sure on the monkey thing, since I only heard about it once, but the crossword puzzle tests are correct. It has nothing to do with people given the same crosswords later in the day, the testw were based on different people doing tests that were done by different people the day before, the subjects scoring went up no less than %20 each.

Can you find me actual proof that this experiment was conducted with published results?  The only thing I can find on it came from a movie: Waking Life.. and well.. it's a movie.. even if it's based on truth it's still a movie.  I can't find any actual information on the scientist who conducted the experiment, or his results.  There's plenty of confounding variables to consider in an experiment like this.. and even if the 20% increase was significant (which it may have not been), it still doesn't prove anything if you know anything about statistics and scientific experimentation.  There's no validity.  If the study can be repeated several times with similar results, I might buy into it.  But I highly doubt it was or could be since I can't find any documentation on it anywhere.

People believe a lot of things, and that's fine.. but I will be picky when it comes to scientific data and real experiments that prove the existence of these things.  I know why I believe things, and if you're ok with believing in something you can't prove, then that's fine.. but don't try to justify something with false or inaccurate data.  If I were you, I'd be interested in the fact that I can't find your support to be true as well.  I wouldn't expect somebody to believe me either if I started spewing out data collected from "experiments" that I couldn't back up.  If you have found it, then please share a link.  What people have experienced is not scientific nor would it sway my belief.  What people "saw" or "experienced" is not only biased, but subject to personal interpritation and most of all completely unreliable.  I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm very open minded.  I believe in the possibility that telepathy might exist, but unless I see proof or read data collected from a conducted and repeated experiment with the same results.. I won't believe in it just like any other scientist wouldn't.

I also searched on "stargate fbi files" and got a ton of science fiction links.  Nothing scientific and no experiments proving that telepathy exists.  Give me a link that's a published scientific document.  

We know the mind exists because we use it on a daily basis.  We know dreams exist because we all experience them.  What we don't all experience is Telepathy and Collective Unconscious.  Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you're right.. but we don't have ANY concrete evidence that either Telepathy or Collective Unconscious exists.  None of the support you've offered towards its existence seems valid to me.

quote:Originally posted by shaman

The exact meaning of a dream is very much specific for a spcific dreamer, but there are things that can be said in general from which and especially about symbolism. There are patterns that come back in every dreamers and seem to be general... dreaming of a wild animal running after you is often a nightmare due to problem of digestion (heavy dinner, etc..); the bathroom dream is another one; In general they have a meaning, but the details and 'exact' meaning depends from dreamer to dreamer. These symbols can be used by the dreamer/psychologist team to find the exact meaning for a dreamer, they are like helping tools. The toilet person is true for many people, however what exactly the person needs to get rid of depends on the specific situation. It might not be true for some people, but it is the first "best guess" from which to start when one wishes to interpret and understand her/his dreams.

ok.. that's better []  I just have a hard time with people posting things like they're facts.. which seems to be a common trend on these forums.. it may seem like nitpicking, but if you really think about it.. people form their collective knowledge based off things they pick up and read.. and then most often they forget the source.  It's called the "Sleeper Effect".  The problem with this, is by you making a declaritive statement about something that isn't always true.. it causes people to regurgitate it as a hard fact later on.. then causes those people to regurgitate it similarly.. ect.. I just think people should watch the way they phrase things.  Much better said the second time around and I completely agree.

quote:Originally posted by shaman

Don't worry, mutilation of genitals, as well as incest, and killing happen quite often in normal dreams. So as long as that in dreams, and not LD or OBE, that's fine. It is not very pleasant for sure. But i believe it happens to almost everyone, if only they could remember their dreams. These have meaning in psychology. The most common recurring dream that people have is actually even as silly, it is (in the dream) to look for a bathroom (toilet) and that the bathroom cannot be used, it is either durty, or filthy, or flooded, etc.. and the need to look for more bathrooms then take over in the dream, where there is a whole set up of an expedition which is to look for a bathroom.... the meaning of it is that the unconscious part of the person is telling that peron that she/he has to get rid of something in her/his life, and the way to get rid of things is to go to the potty  (in dream language). I got all that kinds of stuff in dreams, the thing is to remember the dreams.

Shaman The Dreamer

There's no universal meaning for dreams in Psychology.  It all depends on the person.  Usually only recurring dreams can be made out to mean something in relation to the person's life.  Your toilet exapmple could be true for one person, but not for another.  The hard part is.. it's all post-hoc speculation.  You can pretty much relate anything to anything if you try hard enough.  Most psychologists don't think dreams mean much and pay little attention to them unless they're recurring.  Don't get me wrong, some devote their lives to it, but it often doesn't bring about concrete enough results to merit them as unconscious messages.  If it did it would simply be studied more and there would be manuals and data to reference, but all you'll find out there is theories.  The patterns that people have tried to latch on to and form theories about usually pull up coincidence and random when retested.

[differnet]

quote:Originally posted by Logic

Yep, its true!
Maybe you've heard of the hundred monkies project, where, onehundred monkies, were placed into isolation on an island and studied for a period of time. Whenever one monkey would develop a skill, say, cleaning mud off the potatos provided to them, the rest of the monkies developed the skill naturally without being shown. Same type of thing with a group of people who were tested using crossword puzzles. One day, the group of people who did the puzzles were given one day old tests, their score went up dramatically, atleast 20% per person.

The human brain is easily capable of telepathy, conciouss of it or not, as well as our brother speicies apes. Another reason for this is creativity. Dreams are also a great way to release the creative ideas stored in the brain, like ventalating them almost.

Actually.. I have heard of the 100 Monkeys Project, but it's nothing like you describe.  It's got nothing to do with islands or Telepathy.  As far as I know there's no scientific documented data that suggests Telepathy exists.   There's a Quantum Physics theory that touches on explaining Telepathy phenomenon, but that's about it.

Also, Apes aren't monkeys.  Apes share 98% of our DNA, and Monkeys share a lot less than that.  And although 2% may seem like a small amount, considering how complex DNA is, it actually accounts for quite a large difference.

I think what you might be referring to is the "Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon" though.  The original theory was to support Carl Jung's Collective Unconscious Theory, although when actual data was analysed it did this theory more damage than justice...

On the island itself (which was the monkey's natural habitat.  They weren't "placed" there), all the monekys who learned the potato washing skill (which was the only skill involved in the experiment.. there weren't "skills") learned from other Monkeys.  Monkeys that were not taught the skill before age 4 never learned unless they learned from thier own child, and adults who had never been taught the skill never learned.  None of the monkeys on the island developed the skill telepathically or naturally.  The phenomenon that you're talking about was that a differnet group of monkeys on another island developed the same behavior.  You should really investigate the source before you post something like this because a lot of your facts are wrong, and you're drawing speculations off of things that aren't true.  It didn't even occur to me at first that this is what you were talking about since you got the name of the Phenomenon Wrong, and your facts were so different from the actual experiment.

The part about the monkeys on the other islands developing the skill telepathically was never part of the research, and has a lot of evidence to suggest it was a hoax.  If you think a hoax could never be covered up so nicely, then I urge you to look up "Piltdown Man".  Also, keep in mind here, that all a human had to do was physically teach one monkey to wash a potato to forge these results and then make a phone call.  The scientists were "tipped off" of the monkeys on the other island performing the same behaivior, and this phenominon has never been repeated with similar results.

As for your crossword puzzle reference, it went more like this:  Subjects were asked to do crossword puzzles in the morning, and then another group of different people were asked to do them later in the day.  The people that did the puzzles later in the day got significantly better results.  Hmm.. see any confounding variables here?  How well does your brain function in the morning compared to the rest of the day? []

quote:Originally posted by shenron_2012

i think every one that has a lucid dream is psyco. no offence but it is what i think
sorry.

...

You don't really need to apologize.. It's kinda hard to take offence to somebody who doesn't seem to know what they're talking about in the first place...

Assuming that this post wasn't just to inspire flames, I would challange you to back that up, and explain what you mean by "psyco".  I have a hard time believing you've got a grasp on the definition of a word that you don't know how to spell.

Honestly I think the NovaDreamer is quite pricy.. especially considering the only benefit you get over this one is the detection of REM.  You could look at that as a benefit though, because a lot of people don't get a good night's sleep with the ND because REM cycles happen all throughout the night.  At least you can tell this one to go off in 6 hours instead of every time you cycle into REM.  Plus the only place you can get a ND right now is from the manufacturers, and they're almost twice the price that way.

I'm thinking about getting this.. because I'm having a really hard time with LDs.  I've been trying everything in the book with no results.  I know I'm susceptible to external stimuli though, because things have happened like my phone would ring, and then I would hear it in the dream, and my dream would literally invlolve my phone ringing, but then the sound got loud enough to wake me.  Not sure if I would have even realized I was dreaming either though, even if it hadn't woken me.  I've been writing down my dreams for a while, but there's no patterns or consistant dreamsigns... so I'm thinking this might be the only way for me.

http://www.dreamflasher.net

I think this is brand new, since I haven't really been able to find much info on it.  Much cheaper alternative to the NovaDreamer, and it plugs in.. no need to reload the battery every night.  On the downside it doesn't detect REM, so you have to kinda figure out when you're dreaming yourself to flash the cues.

quote:Originally posted by tombodenmann

Now on the incest matter: I basically agree with you Mi.... To be honest my main subject is enviromental science. I had my my biology classes 2 years ago. So I can't say for absolute sure how bad it is if you have a child with your sister, but it probably won't be the end of the world from a biological viewpoint. I don't wanna tell anybody what he has to do and if two people are in love and wanna be together, thats fine with me, no matter if their are relatives or not. Now on the question if it's natural to have sex with your sister, which I think was the starting point: I still believe it's not, but I might be wrong. One could now studie different cultures and also investigate how common incest is done by mammals but I don't have the time to do that. that might be interestning
Now on the question if LD are interlinked: I think you missunderstood me. I do not believe that if you kill someone in a LD that at the same time an other person is killed in a dream. there's no proove what so ever to validate that theorie. And it sounds pretty illogical to me. . As far as experiments are concerned I would not take the fact that the scientific community is not able to confirm something, if they are willing at all, to draw the conclusion that it's not true. Things like dreams, where the subconscious is interferring are very hard to explore on a scientific basis.  
The connection would be more suble.The obvious is for example memory.
You remember your LD and that will influence you. Lets assume you had sex with your sister in a LD won't you look at her with different eyes now? I meam you have  a degree in Psychology so you should be able to tell us the consequences. I'm looking at it more from this viewpoint.

It's easy to answer the question as to whether or not incest is natural... sure it is.  It's our culture that ISN'T natural.  If you put any other animal into a room with it's relative.. whether it be a brother, sister, cousin, whatever... chances are.. it will try to mate.  This also brings up a good Natural Selective point.  If incestual mating were detrimental to a species, Darwin's law would have ruled them out by now... yet there's tons of species in nature that don't mind a roll in the hay with their relatives and seem to be doing just fine.  By natural I would assume you mean biologically natural.. and basically if you take away a human's ability for rational thought.. we'd be mating with our brothers and sisters all over the place.  So I would have to say that incest would be more "natural" than not from a biological standpoint.  Also.. no matter what you believe as far as the origin of our species is.. if you believe Adam and Eve were the first humans.. well then their kids mated with each other.. otherwise we wouldn't exist.  If you're an evolotion fan.. then if you trace our species back far enough, you'd eventually get to a point where it would have been impossible for us to survive without incest.  So if that's the debate... saying it's wrong because it's not natural.. I would have to disagree..

As far as looking at your sister in a new way after having sex with her in an LD.. eh.. well here's a little basic psych for you.. your ID says: "hey look a hot girl", your EGO says: "We should have sex with her because we're horny and that will satisfy us", and the Superego says: "What's wrong with you?  That's our sister, and our culture says it's bad to have sex with her, so snap out of it!".  What I'm trying to say is that.. if your sister's hot.. your sister's hot.. you'll be just as attracted to her than anybody else.  What you CAN do, with higher processing to cope with cultural law, is convince yourself that you're not attracted to her because she's your sister.  But there's no other reason why you wouldn't be naturally.

I also understand that you don't mean a literal linking of the dreams.. i.e. if you kill someone in their dream then they die in life.. that's a little too Freddy Kruegar even for these forums []  But as a psychologist, I do belive that dreams are completely contained in your own brain, and you're the only one who's effected by them.  Most Psychologists don't give any merit to dreams as far as meanings go.  There was a psychological fad with them going back a few decades.. but for the most part nobody could really show any results one way or another.  Recurring dreams are sometimes explored in psychotherapy and can be useful, but other than that for the most part they're extremely random.

honestly... I have a degree in Psychology and I've spent a lot of time with issues surrounding the human brain.  Granted, there's a lot we don't know about the brain still, but I think a lot of you would be surprised if you found out how much we actaully do know about it and are are utilizing that knowledge.

I can't really write a book on everything I know about the brain and why I think the things that I do here.. because it really would be a book.  But if you haven't explored the other side of what you believe then I think you're robbing yourself.  I wouldn't be here right now if I wasn't open to exploring alternative explainations for LDs and what their purpose is.  I have yet however, to find anything to sway me towards believing that you can interact and effect others in a LD.  Like anything, this is easier to prove wrong then to prove right.  If there was anything to prove scientifically, then there would be tests being done.  Split two people 100 miles apart and tell them both to LD and go to the same place, have a conversation, and then wake up and log that conversation to two seperate unbiased people in each location, then match up the stories.  It's that easy to conduct... why hasn't it been done?  If it has, show me a scientific document with details on the experiment showing the results.  Not something on Simon the Schizophrenic's Home Page. []

also.. on the taboo issue.. let's go ahead and say Western Civilization taboo instead of cultural, since incest isn't taboo in all cultures anyway.  It wouldn't be fair to assume that it's universally taboo.  Just as it's unfair to assume that we have the right answer.  My point on all of this anyway is not to argue biology with you.  I can certianly support my statements if I need to.. and I admit we both went off on a tangant with that.  But my point is.. people often believe things without knowing why they believe them.  Incestual Taboo seems to be a common one of these things.  Most people will just say that it's because of the biological issues surrounding it, but if you really do the math.. if you mate with a family member you're not going to do any damage to your gene pool, and you're at least giving people the freedom to persue their happiness.  If two cousins fell in love at some point, or a brother and sister fell in love.. thier lives are now a living hell thanks to society because they'll never be able to be together because other people are so quick to judge and condemn based on a "biological fact" that really doesn't even apply.  Great going society!  Way to enforce those social laws that you have no idea why they exist in the first place!  That's my point.  People use extreme statisitcal analysis to justify telling people what they can and can't do.. and people eat it up without thinking twice because it works with the social norm.  I'll tell you one thing... if Incest WAS the social norm, nobody would care about the bilogical effects.  Because they're too rare.. and people have to live the way their community wants them to live or they're alienated.

[developmentally disabled]

hehe.. my whole post was based on the fact that I didn't want to debate the whole interlinked dreams and whatnot.  I don't believe in any of it.. and we're not going to change each other's minds about that..  it's another debate for another time. []  This debate is pretty much broken if we're not drawing off the same foundation.. which we're clearly not as I see now.  But.. my point is.. assume that I do belive that there's no negative consequences for actions in LDs.. then you can see my point.  Just like I said if we were to assume there were.. then I'd see yours.  Don't be so quick to shoot me down when right off the bat I gave you the respect to say that if you were to believe the oppposite on this issue, then I can see where you're coming from.  Personally, the way I see it is that there's no hard evidence to suggest they're linked.. and if they were.. it wouldn't be this elite world that only a few people knew about.  (I mean come on.. you people are discussing this on a public internet forum [])  Everybody would by trying to lucid dream, and you would have conversations with other people that they could remember.  None of this has ever been documented or proven.. it's just as futile as the whole ESP debate.  Many people will claim to have it, but whenever it was studied in a scientific environment it's failed miserably.

tombo,
  a few things.. You don't have to agree with me.  I practically took it straight from recent Biology and Anthropology classes and text. I think you may need to reread a few of those chapters.  I think you missed some things.  (Just teasing.. but I've also studied Biology and Anthropology in College. [])  Also, I didn't say 10, I said about 10.. meaning maybe 9, maybe 11, maybe 8, maybe 7  And to make it clearer, I meant that after ABOUT 10 generations of inbreeding, the probability will be high enough so that you might be able to predict a defect.  Anything that happens sooner would be quite against the odds.  I already know all of what you're saying... however it's never been tested or proven.  It's unethical, and probably never will be.  I can however, support my statements that a biological defect due to incest is extremely rare with a little history lesson;  Cleopatra was the product of generations upon generations of brother/sister incest.  Yet every Egyption male wanted a piece of her unless they was batting for the other team.  She was beautiful.  Also.. some royal families in Europeon countries that ran Monarchies were NOT allowed to mate outside of their immedate family because it was feared that the outside blood would ruin the royal blood line.  As far as I know.. no defects...  In science theories are pretty much useless unless they're proven.. and the incest/bad gene theory has never been tested and proven.. and it's more so based on statistics and increasing probablility.  I could say that since I haven't won the lottery yet, the probablility of me winning it next week is higher than it was after losing last week.. but reguardless I still have an extemely slim chance.  That's what you're saying when you say "increased probablility".  It's simply not a fact.. just a speculation.. althouh there's been a lot of cases throughout history that's proven it to not be true.  It's easy to prove wrong.. hard to prove right, especially in your remote mountain developmentally disabled (not retarded!  come on!  let's be nice here!  it's the new PC word for retarded since "retard" became a common 5th grade insult [8D])  example because you can't really prove that their problems weren't a result of conflicting variables.. which.. let's face it.. if you're living in remote mountian villiages.. is quite possible.

quote:Originally posted by Foas

..... I am mostly speachless for what some poeple are saying......
Think like this, When your LDing And another person enters that what if they are not Ld themselfs and you entered there dreams, Wouldnt they feel it, Fear it and control themselfs in there own mind, To Fear men from being raped or killed. Like if you killed your brother and your brother had the same dream that you killed him. Would alter poeple perseptions. To me anyone that rapes on Astral should die no matter if your mind or not your thinking of it and if you where to achie this in normal reality what would stop you? What ever you do in astral doesn't just effect you it effect other in the dream/plain itself. If i ever see someone rape someone in astral im gaon lugh when i torcher them!

...you're not on the same page here.

you're assuming that the mutual agreement prior to the debate would be that LDs can cross and effect each other.  I don't believe that... and from the tone of the postings and what people have said I would assume a lot of the posters on this thread  don't believe it either.. (if I'm wrong then I see your concern) ..but if that were the case then LD wouldn't exactly be an outlet for these people to vent their frustrations like we've been posting it would be.. since the repercussions would be the same.  I clearly stated in my post that I don't condone actions that hurt others.  What you're argueing is a whole other discussion in itself... and one I'd rather not dabble into because there's just not any hard evidence to support it... so it would be kinda moot to this thread.  Just assume that the basis for what I said anyway (can't speak for others) is that I don't believe anything you do in LDs effects anyone other than yourself.

I should probably also add that incest was taboo long before they had very many books on Biology or even knew what a gene was... so it really has nothing to do with the way our culture thinks of it.  Science helped to prove that under extreme curcumstances.. incest can increase the probability of defective genes and this only added to the taboo and turned into such rumers like "their kids will have 14 toes".. which is what I was poking at when I made that reference.. just saying it really has nothing to do with biology.  I wasn't being serious about the 14 toes thing. lol

I read it quite well.  This is only true if generations upon generations of brothers and sisters mate closing out the gene pool to any outside influence.  Do you know how different the genetic makeup of your cousins are to you?  The only way for this type of thing to happen is if you start somwhere and do not allow ANY outside genes to be passed on to the generations for about at least 10 generations before you'll start seeing biological effects.  i.e. - Two parents have a boy and a girl and they mate and have a boy and a girl, and they mate and have a boy and a girl.. not only would it never happen even in a world where incest was socially acceptable.. but the chances are extremely rare.  So you're right.. but you're arguing against a point I never made; that's not the reason why incest is culturally taboo.

What about people who may be having urges for these sorts of things and are fulfilling them in LDs to release the frustration of not being able to to them in RL?  People have a tendancy to write off fetishes and non-socially acceptable desires as perversions and deem the person who has them as "not normal" to seperate them from themselves.  Fact is.. all it takes is a little nurture or nature for you to become just like any of those people.  People go through things that you could never even imagine and it scars them mentally... and people respond by treating them like lunatics.  If somebody had cancer, would you treat them the same way?  Just because somebody has a mental disposition that makes them take a pleasure in a perversion doesn't mean they can control how they feel about it.. and fulfulling those pleasures in LDs can probably be very useful in taking the frustration out of RL so when an opportunity does come up that *will* effect RL.. they won't because they're not completely starved of it.

Also.. as for the having sex with family members thing and who fantisizes about it and whether or not it's "perverse".. I love how people just think that things are wrong but they have no idea why they think that way.  Not that I go around having sex with family members, (and I don't say that to seperate myself from those types of people.. but to avoid the negative social repercussions), but I do protect people's desires and fantasies to do it.  If you really believe that having sex with another family member is *wrong* and perverse, then I urge you to do some research and look up the history of incest and why it became a cultural taboo.  (and no it doesn't have to do with religeon, although religeon adopted the taboo and practically made it law).  Also.. if you think it's because their offspring will have 14 toes you're way off.  Pick up a biology book.

I certianly don't encourage hurting others or pedofilia.  But don't judge people who happen to fantasize or test their limits with stuff like this in LDs.  It's human nature to be curious, and it doesn't make them bad people.  They're only a stone throw off from you, and they also probably don't approve of a lot of your morals as well.  Plus some of these people don't even know why they feel that way or they have these urges and don't want them.. and they have to deal with that themselves.  Not that it makes it ok... but people who really have problems with these kinds of things obviously need help.. (and only because what they're doing effects and hurts themselves or others.. not because somebody else says it's bad) ..but don't judge a person for what he thinks or dreams about.  I'm sure if we opened up any of your minds and exposed it for all the things you've ever thought about doing or dreamt about you'd have a hard time telling other people they have problems.

quote:From my experiences, lucid dreams are still dreams and so remembering them is more like remembering a dream rather than remembering something from waking reality. However, I do think you're more likely to remember a lucid dream than a normal dream because when you first wake up from it instead of going back to sleep you'll think about it for awhile.

That's interesting... I see a lot of people hyping it up to be one of the greatest experiences ever.. and about how realistic they feel.. I think you're the first person I've seen to have posted that they feel more like a dream than anything else after you wake up.

i think if you keep trying for the lucid dream it will happen when you least expect it. Keep in mind that we probably all have more dreams each night than we actually remember, so it's possible you've already had a lucid dream!
Wouldn't I remember if I had a lucid dream?  I mean from what people are saying it feels just like being awake.. and I can pretty much recall what happened to me for the past few days...  Are they harder to remember than real-life experiences?