Messages

Just curious what kind of sensations you guys get before drifting off to sleep or when very relaxed?  I occasionally get a feeling where my ears feel like they are about to pop - like a pressure change on an airplane.

Also when very relaxed and trying to keep my mind busy with daydreaming I can notice a distinct point where my mind tries to shut off - my breathing becomes very muffled and my heart races a bit.  It's very jarring and prevents me from getting too relaxed.

I can never fall sleep on my back - only on my side.

While trying to reach a trance state, I typically try to control my breath to make it softer and quieter and deeper.  BUT...

I seem to get better relaxation by breathing a bit faster than this, and exhaling loudly through the mouth and not exhaling or inhaling too deeply.  It seems that inhaling/exhaling too deeply takes too much concentration (for me) to let me get truly relaxed.  What do you think???

Today I was driving home, and passed by a very nice home surrounded by a large metal fence and gate.  It had some kind of scarecrow-type people inside on the front lawn.  When I looked closer, I think it was actually intended to look like guards holding guns, I think.  I was shocked to see this.  Kinda like convenience stores that have that fake cop cutout.

Anyway, I think it is very sad, but the more these people have tried to liberate themselves with their hard work and money, the more they have been trapped in their lifestyle behind walls and protective devices, alienated and very hostile-appearing to the average passerby.

I would much prefer a life where I live freely in the open and give love and receive love from all.  There is nothing to be taken from you when you live without material concerns and have only love to give.  You have nothing to fear from others, and nothing to protect.  Your walls come down.

My friends often make fun of the way I might throw away something perfectly good, yet it holds no attachment to me so I discard it.  It seems perfectly natural to eliminate any extraneous things in my life.  Anyway, there are lots who are so consumed by materialistic gain that I pose these questions:

1)  How does one deal with these kinds of materialistic people?
Example - I went to a friend's house.  I brought over a music CD for him to hear and he had a new PC game I hadn't played.  I gave him the CD wanting him to hear it and he showed me the game.  Anyway, his comment was something like "cool, since you brought that CD we can just trade" or something to that effect.

My initial response was just "sure", but upon later inspection, I realized what I probably should have said was "Well if that is how you see it.  I prefer to think of it as me giving you a gift, and you giving me a gift."

I question peoples' motives when they are keeping those kinds of mental tallies of favors and trades like that.  Perhaps there was no harm meant by it.

2)  Are there any advantages to materialism?  Can anyone offer up anything in the defense of a materialistic lifestyle?

Thanks,
Justin

[Originally posted by Tia:]

(This was originally posted in response to Tia's comment in "New, Need help"  but grew into a very long posting, so I broke it off from that thread)

quote:Originally posted by Tia:
My idea of meditation is to be without thought.  It's really hard to stop the mind from grabbing every little insignificant thing and carrying it along.  If you can stop all the surface thoughts then you allow 'things' to come to you that exist on a deeper level.   It's  like listening for the important stuff that's deep inside you, but first you have to clear the mind and all that thinking, so you can hear it.

Tia, I couldn't have said it any better.

I think the core problem is that most people think "oh, control my mind, no problem".  Actually, I think it's really HARD... All day long I have that monkey-mind problem.  

It's harmless sometimes, but there are other cases such as the following:
1) Dwelling on your hatred of a job, place, environment, activity
2) Looking too sharply at other peoples' faults (too critical)
3) Pre-judging people you haven't met
4) Having too much of an ego about your abilities or strong points

These kinds of cycles become self-induced and self-feeding sources of pain or egotistical pleasure for your mind.  This can be seen when people put down others continually just to feel better about themselves, or people who complain all the time.  I fear that I am especially prone because I tend to focus very sharply on problems, leading me into these kinds of traps.

I tend to think that me being a software engineer has something to do with it. In the computer field we are always looking to break down a problem into its fundamental levels, design a solution, and implement it.  We are taught that everything has a logical solution and that if it doesn't work right then you just need to find what's wrong and fix it.  Simple as that.  Real life isn't so easy, and there is no "cure-all'.  Sometimes you just have to make due and realize that there's no magical way to make yourself 100% happy 100% of the time, no matter how hard you try to change and rearrange things.  This may sound simple, but I am fairly young and arrogant, and it took me a while to get un-stubborn and realize these things.

After doing meditation and understanding lots more about thought control I have come to realize these problems with myself.  These days I tend to catch myself and break the cycle a lot sooner.  I shudder to think had I gone another 10-20 years without understanding this important fact.  It would have been a lot of wasted energy on my part.

It seems that often, the people who get farthest in their careers and are the most happy are often the ones who are the nicest, most friendly, most centered and loving people who freely share their knowledge and collaborate with others without any presumptions.  IE.. people who don't build walls around themselves by trying to argue their way to the top, put down their coworkers, hide their knowledge, etc.  This is no accident, I believe.  To truly excel you must realize that you are no better than anyone else.  You have to cut loose, let go, and get real.  People will love you for it.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had any sudden moments of insight during a meditation session?

Thanks,
Justin

Hi there,

I picked up the Gateway Series Discovery (Wave I) from Monroe Products due largely in part to Frank's recommendation.  I've been doing serious meditation for about a month now, and honestly had, out of curiosity, tried some other stuff like the Brainwave Suite which supposedly changed brainwave patterns to make you relaxed, relieve stress...

Anyway, IMO, I didn't expect too much from the Gateway Series.  The brainwave suite did almost no noticeable things for me, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  What I ended up with wasn't some music or ambience, but rather an instructional tape with some subtle, almost nonexistant, background tones at points.

I ran through the first few exercises pretty quickly, having been familiar to trance work, quieting the mind, relaxation, etc.  I have to admit, though, that the hemi-sync exercises did put me into a strange vertigo state, kinda felt like my whole body was strapped sitting into a barrel that's rolling down a hill, or bouncing around inside a dryer.  It's pretty subtle, but the notion is definitely something I didn't experience on my own meditations beforehand.  I also experience this, now, without the use of the hemi-sync tapes.

I can also reach this state quickly, which is something that I could not do beforehand.  I often took hours to get to such a relaxed state.

I can personally vouch that there's some value to be had on this thing, especially for beginners, but I haven't gotten good enough at it to see how much it can do for me.

A specific question or two for Frank:

1)  When I am in the "Focus 10" state, I get to a point where I am comfortably looking into the space at the back of my eyelids.  I then try to push, force, exert pressure, look at the third-eye area, roll the eyes back, etc, and try to invision myself "moving into" this blackness, if that makes any sense, letting it encompass me.

My latest attempt had me feeling some strange bodily sensations in the arms and legs, maybe like separatedness or numbness but weird, and it became very difficult to breathe properly and maintain this brow pressure at the same time.  My concentration didn't hold up so I broke it off.

I am trying this mainly from the bits and pieces I have heard of people doing similar things, because this isn't at all requested of you in the hemi-sync exercises...  Anyway, it seems like this would be the way an OBE would occur - your consciousness breaks out of your perception much like that one interrogation scene in The Matrix where the camera starts out looking at a computer monitor showing the agents and Neo in the "green room", then progressively moves toward the computer monitor until it goes through it and into the actual room itself where the scene plays out.

Sorry, I can't think of a better analogy...

Anyway, Frank, does your OBE-induction technique follow along those lines?

2) Also, are you able to easily fall asleep to the fifth exercise?  I have trouble with this one, even if I am extremely tired.  I just can't sleep when I know I have a running countdown going, expecting me to pass out...

Thanks,
Justin

Hi,

I had several weird experiences last night.  My waking paralysis is getting more common.  I can recall at least four distinct OBE-type incidents.

Basically, I sleep on my side.  I get waking paralysis, at which point, I see the things in front of me.  I mentally push, with my awareness hands, away from the wall or whatever happens to be in front of me and my projectable double seems to pop loose.  Last night, after doing this several times,  I recall thinking to myself "hey, i think I'm getting the hang of it".

I can recall moving through objects (my entertainment center), putting my hand through the floor and touching something VERY cold, trying to push my head through the floor (heh), encountering great resistance, and then easing into it.  I still didn't have any vision although I could sense exactly where things were.

I also recall trying to get my vision working.  I was puzzled why I was seeing blackness although I was desperately trying to see... I focused on the blackness and noticed static, if you can imagine it being like a TV, but with pure blackness with speckles of dark gray throughout.  Just after, I think I kind of effortlessly eased into it and was able to see around my apartment, and even see myself sleeping, although the place was much darker than it probably was in reality, since this was early morning.  Everything was fairly clear and in-place.

I recall sensations of chest vibrations.  It's so weird to feel yourself drifting while knowing your physical body is somewhere else.

I also recall focusing on my body and drifting back later.

Again, these might have been dreams, but my dreams usually involve people and are far more action-oriented and difficult to control.  I dreams I tend to always feel like a spectator and can never really think for myself.  On the other hand, this was just me, drifting around my apartment.  That, with the vibration sensations, seems to tell me that I was projecting.

Can anyone relate to any of these experiences?

Thanks,
Justin

Hi there,

The past few nights, I have been noticing some pretty weird sensations as I fall asleep.  I guess meditation has been training my mind to remain alert and feel them.  

Right on the brink of sleep, when I'm just about to pass out, it feels like the ears kinda pop, like if you were to hold your nose and exhale, and it also feels like the body gets a surge of energy and the heartbeat basically stops for a brief bit.

It's been pretty jarring and I pulled myself back awake several times after experiencing it.

Does anyone else notice this?  Is this the projection reflex kicking in?

Thanks,
Justin

I know a lot of people here, including myself, are somewhat confused as to what the symptoms of light and full trance are.  Can anyone clear things up?

Lets say, I imagine my sense of awareness sinking.  Eventually I feel my feet go numb, and if I am lucky, my arms not long after.  This usually happens very easily for me.  Sometimes the arms take a while.  Does this mean I am in trance?  Is this the "bodily heaviness" people describe?

My thoughts haven't ever gotten "foggy yet very clear", which a lot of people on this board say happens when you enter trance.

Also, occasionally I get a feeling like my head sinks into my chest when I meditate sitting down.  I don't think I have ever felt the "brief falling sensation", either.

Basically, I feel all kinds of physical symptoms such as numbness but I don't think my state of mind changes any.  Am I in light or full trance?

Thanks,
Justin

Hi all,

This morning, something very odd happened.  As I lay there, meditating lying down on my back and attempting the rope, I started to get a little tingle in the leg.  I dismissed it, because I usually get the occasional tingle.  Then, it began to spread like wildfire throughout my feet and legs!  It felt as if someone was poking me with a buncha needles all over my feet and legs in random spots repeatedly.  Before I knew it my entire feet and legs were tingling with this sensation and even *ahem* Mr. Happy got a bit excited...

Anyway, I was surprised and I broke concentration a bit but they still didn't die down.  Eventually they did, but my feet were as numb as can be from that point on.

Was this vibrations or cobwebs or something else?

Thanks,
Justin

First, is it possible to be too awake to OBE?  I ask because I am a person who needs lots of sleep at night (10-12 hrs to feel well during the day).  When I meditate, I NEVER have come close to falling asleep, even though I hear its a common thing.  For an OBE, are you supposed to be drifting into a sleep-state for the projection reflex to kick in?

Second, I don't get any vibrations at all.  Occasionally, I get a slight fluttering twitch or something in the hand or thigh, but when I focus on it, it quickly goes away.  What is the first thing I would notice when I start to get these vibrations that everyone talks about?

I meditate regularly, and have learned to relax, clear my head, control my breathing, and try some loosening techniques.  I am getting better, but I guess I'm just not close enough to project yet.

Thanks,
Justin

For you seasoned veterans,

Do you notice better dream recall than you ever did before projecting?   I just seem to be having really good dream recall lately, having no problems recalling dialog from dreams.

I'm not sure if this really started around the time I began to meditate regularly or not.

Justin

Well guys, I think I just had my first OBE.  Please read what I have to offer and tell me what you think.  (Sorry for the length, but I wanted to give all the details I could)

It was about 6:00 AM.  I had been up all night, a regular thing since I began nightly meditation.  I usually meditate from 2:00 AM until 4:00 AM or so, trying to OBE.

Well, last night, I was pretty bummed from trying to project and failing the past few nights.  I tried again for only a very short period of time with no results.  Afterward, I decided to lay down and go to sleep since I needed the rest.

I layed down on my side, facing the couch, so as to prevent any OBE symptoms since I read that it was hard to project on your side.  I was hoping to get some good rest.

The next thing I know I was looking through my eyes, staring at the couch, in kind of a weird perspective.  It was like one eye was open and one was not.  I thought "boy, this is a weird dream to be having.....".    (Right now I am reading in AD and he in fact mentions on page 294 about this same kind of defective vision that I was having.)

I tried to twist my body to lay on my back...nothing.  I tried again, harder, nothing.  I began to think of the waking paralysis I had been reading about in AD before I went to sleep.  (I have experienced waking paralysis only ONCE that I remember, and it only lasted a few seconds, but it was pretty weird.)

Anyway, then it just hit me "OH!".  I tugged upward and could feel my projectable double rising out. I could feel the tug from my physical body, however, my defective vision was giving me problems. I couldn't really see anything.  I remember moving 5-6 feet away to the nearby window, standing where I often look out during the daytime, and the tug from my physical body lessened.

I think I then tried to crouch and jump REALLY high, in kind of a blast-off-through-the-roof act.  I felt the rush as I ascended, but with defective sight I had problems really appreciating it.  My vision did, however, shift to my physical body and it seemed to be that it began breathing heavier.  I could feel it as I looked through my eyes to the couch from where I lay.

I got a bit worried for a second.  After that blastoff attempt, I decided that I'd had enough.  As I usually do in dreams,I mentally tried to click the "wake up" switch, but it didn't work.  I just got the couch-view of my physical body instead.  

I wasn't prepared for these sight problems, so I don't think I ever really SAW much of anything except through my physical body's eyes which had that weird one-eyed sideways view of my couch.  I did, however, see one thing:  I went over to my physical body as it lay, and, through blurred vision, tried to get a closer look.  

The silly part is that I actually tried to grab ahold of my physical body and "roll it over" to examine my face and  make sure that I was breathing and alive.  Of course, that didn't work!  My first reaction was "oh no... am I dead?". I was stricken with grief, and then acceptance of the events, and then to calm as I felt my physical body breathing. (This is actually my biggest concern - failure to breathe properly or not getting enough oxygen and passing out.
I guess it's kinda silly since breathing is a natural reflex that we all do everyday without thinking.)

After this, I tried to perform another "blastoff" attempt, again with the racing heart transposed with "couch-cam".

continued...

Hi all,

I am new to this, having purchased AD about two weeks ago.  Since then I have read quite a bit of it, and have been practicing regular meditation.  At first I was a bit skeptical, since I don't believe in very many supernatural things, but I DO strongly believe in the powers of the human mind.

The past few nights, I have been able to reach a fairly deep level of trance with increasing ease.  I feel very heavy and sharp noises in the house tend to cause a bit of jarring pain in the stomach.  Since I read that these are trance symptoms, I feel that I am on the right track.  Also, it tends to feel to me like, in trance, my center of consciousness kinda sinks into my chest, like my whole body was a flat plane.  It feels like my head is level with my feet... anyone else have this feeling?  Is this a symptom of lighter or heavier trance, do you think?

By the way, my general meditation position is sitting on two pillows, back to the wall against another pillow, with a fourth pillow under the outstretched legs and feet.

Anyway, to my original questions...  As I said, I am getting closer and closer.  I perform the rope trick and can feel the vertigo and tightness in the chest.  Last night I must have tried alternations between the rope trick and a general "steam" effect for about an hour with no luck.  My problem with the rope trick is that I begin to count, and I am not sure that is good for my concentration/relaxation, so I try the steam trick.  I can feel myself rising, the tightness increasing, and then...nothing.  I settle down, build back up hoping for another...nothing.

At first I thought it was problems with eye-twitching and jaw tightening as I try to focus, but I have since been able to control those things and be in a more relaxed state, I still have had no luck.  As far as the eyes go, should they be totally shut tight, or should you focus and appear to be looking through your eyelids???  Personally, I find it hard to visualize the rope if my eyes are too relaxed.  What do you think?

What should be happening?  I keep looking for some kind of event to let me know that I am projecting, but nothing so far has come.  Will my eyes suddenly "pop open" astrally and I will start seeing as if my physical eyes were really open?  Will I feel myself lift out?  What will be my first clue that I have projected?  Where, bodily, will this clue come from?

Also, two more general questions:
1)
I seem to have the ability to kind of quickly "channel energy" through my body.  It feels like a rush into my chest and lasts for about a second or two.  I can do this repeatedly, but NOT as a sustained surge.  If I try again too soon, I can't seem to "draw" any more energy, which tells me that my body does get tired, and I have to wait a minute or two before I can try again...

When meditating, I can feel slight wavelike vibrations, particularly in my feet, after I perform this.  They die out after a minute or so.

Can anyone else perform this, and what use might it be?

My assumption is that martial artists use a similar technique, like focusing chi, but I am not sure if this is the same thing.

2)
When I was little, I seemed, on occasion, to feel time kinda "slow down" I guess would be the word.  I could feel as if I was on a different consciousness level.  Focus was more easily obtained and things, particularly music, just seemed to sound SLOWER than they usually did.  Also, some of the instruments and beats would become more distinct than they usually were.  The only reason this bugs me is that this happened to me recently when I was in front of the computer with WinAmp.  It hasn't happened to me in years and I have no idea how to trigger this deliberately.  Has anyone else experienced this phenomena?

Any input is appreciated...

Thanks!
Justin

UPDATE:
Something else I forgot to add...  To reach a level of full trance, once technique I have come up with is to picture the rooms of peoples' houses.  This seems to work rather well because it keeps my mind active without thinking too hard.  I just recall a snapshot, and move from room to room, and then house to house, doing this until I feel deeply relaxed.  It serves to calm me down, clear my mind of any "internal dialogue", and yet gives me sufficient things to focus on until I get truly relaxed.  It may or may not work for you, but it helps me quite a bit.

I think I know what you are describing when you say "thin sheet of paper".

I always thought when I was in a trance state that it felt as if my body was a flat plane.  Like, my head sinks into my chest or something.  It's very weird.

I don't think I've ever seen any hypnagogic imagery, though... ;(

kakkarot:

quote:
1) why deal with them? are we meant to change everyone we meet so that they become us? i hardly think so. just treat them the same as you would anyone else. if you don't care about things, why should others not care about them? just do what you do.

I agree with this.  I am not attempting to convert anyone, really.  My concern was more of what happens when it comes to people who do nice things for others only if they are expecting a return on the investment, so to speak.  I guess we all do that to some degree, though?

Question number two was really asked because I was simply curious if anyone else has gone through this phase.  Some people I have spoken to feel that getting rid of material posessions is a sign of depression and possible suicide.  I guess the mentality was that "nothing has any worth" or "nothing has any meaning." I know that's not the case with me.  I am just trying to trim away the excess stuff that I no longer want and no longer use.

So, I guess I can see how in some cases, materialistic gain could keep someone mentally healthy, perhaps.

Thanks,
Justin

Hi,

jilola:
I get the exact same hand sensation - it feels like the hands are on backwards.  

I have never felt the "change of scale" sensation.  I often get to a point during meditation on the couch where it feels like my point of awareness has sunk into my chest down to my arms, which might *be* the "change of scale" now that I think about it...  hmmm.....

Also, I get numb body parts, but never an absolute numbness like AK has described.

Thanks,
Justin

Well, if your eyes droop downward, you have more of a tendency to, if you relax, have your eyes drift open a bit and catch glimpses of the room around you and break your concentration.

By focusing upward more, you can eventually maintain it to the point that you can relax your eyes without fear of opening them, and then just sorta gaze into your eyelids.

I realize that some meditations call for the eyes to be half closed, though.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Thanks,
Justin

Hi there,

I just wanted to say that all of my projections have come from sleeping on the side, have been unplanned, and have had no exit/entry symptoms.  I call them projections instead of dreams because I typically am more in control and they have no people (friends,family) in them.  

I also have mixed dreams during them which I assume happened before/after the projection, but I never thought about during.  I HAVE tried to re-enter and failed since my physical body was asleep.  I actually thought I was dead for a bit.

I have a question, though...

When you and other people talk about their arms or legs separating or getting stuck, what does that feel like?

When I meditate and try the rope or sinking I occasionally get a feeling of waves of tingles descending into my legs.  They start very light and then get stronger and spread up the legs to the groin area.  The feeling is very noticeable and doesn't feel like any other sensation that I've ever felt.  It is possible that my legs are separating?  I don't always get this feeling... only around one out of every three or four attempts.

Thanks,
Justin

Hi there,

Are you saying that you achieved your first conscious-exit?

Congrats just the same...

Justin

I never quite thought about things like that.  That's a really cool idea.

It would make an excellent sci-fi/fantasy book idea.  A society that somehow realized and overcame this barrier....a government conspiracy to "maintain the fabric of the world".... anyway, i'm rambling...

Justin

PW,

I hadn't read Wake Up To Your Life Yet, but here's the gist of it:

"How to live life with equanimity, loving kindness, compassion, and joy"
"How to cut through obsessions with the external world, relationships, harmful emotions, pleasure, power, and self"
"Tried-and-true methods for cultivating active attention with your body and mind"

Inside it seems to talk about the following good stuff:
A good introduction to Buddhism
Dismantling your attachment to conventional "success"
A big section on karma
A bunch of other stuff relating to emotion and beliefs

The guy who wrote it is a Tibetan Buddhist teacher who consults in Los Angeles.

Actually, I had never gotten very deep into this book, but now, it seems as if it were exactly the kind of information I have been searching for!  

Thanks,
Justin

Hi,

Right now I am reading the Star Wars New Jedi Order series.  I never really read very many sci-fi books, but kept hearing my friends chat about them everyday.  So, eventually I picked them up and, lets see, 7 books later, I am still going strong.  R.A. Salvatore wrote the series opener, followed by Michael Stackpole, Greg Keyes, and Troy Denning, and a bunch of others.

The story shows modern day conflicts in a sci-fi light...an alien race enters the galaxy and decides to cleanse it of the "infidels" and their "abominations".
This relates to the modern day wars going on with the Taliban and their outrageous beliefs.

In a nutshell,  the species is called the Yuuzhan Vong and they believe that all technology, machines, droids are blasphemy against their gods, and that the gods have deemed their race's mission to take over this new galaxy... that it is somehow theirs for the taking (think of the land disputes in the middle east right now and you get the picture).

The aliens rely on pure biological means.... they "grow" their ships out of a coral substance, genetically engineer creatures for war, seed entire planets with disease, manipulate gravity to propel and shield their ships, and communicate across space using telepathic creatures.

There's a lot of creativity in the series, and the dialog in most books of the series is excellent.  The characters are in constant debate over whether their abilities are to be used for attack or defense, and just where the line should be drawn.

Anyway, check it out if it sounds interesting...

Here's some other stuff on my shelf that I have read/been meaning to read:

Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennett
The Mind's I by same
Artificial Minds by Stan Franklin
Mind Children by Hans Moravec
The Society of Mind by Marvin Minsky

The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama and Howard C. Cutler
Wake up to your Life by Ken McLeod
Awakening the Buddhist Heart by  Lama Surya Das

The Inner Game of Work by W. Timothy Gallwey

Finally, I just got a really good book the other night called
Wheels of Life: A User's Guide to the Chakra System which goes over
each chakra with what it means, how it works, and ways to stimulate it.

I am really fascinated by all aspects of consciousness and morality.
Anyway, happy reading...

Later,
Justin

Patty,

Yep! Exactly!

With my sight AND my tactile feeling it seems that the only true way is just to ease into it.  I kinda see this as a metaphor for life itself.  You can't force everything to be how you want it...  such has been the source of a lot of my personal grief the past few years.

Anyway, its interesting to sort out the projections from the dreams... my dream recall has been getting better these days.  

I am going to try the playing-card trick, where you pick a random card and put it somewhere.  Then, when projecting, look at the card.  When you wake up, see if its the same card.  Maybe you could do the same!

Thanks,
Justin

Hi there,

I have the song-stuck-in-head problem all the time.  Here's what I do:

Since my mind is making this happen, I use my mind to fix it.  So, what I do is imagine the band, but put them into a sound-proof booth or imagine them without their instruments or something.  That way, they can't be heard.  It works surprisingly well!

It usually will come back, and then you can either try that again, or just brute-force it out as soon as you start to hear the song again.

I also use the color breathing technique to focus as well..

Justin

Grenade,

I was wondering, when you talk about trance, do you mean just a light trance or the real-deal?  What symptoms do you get?

Justin