Messages

Clair, your writing was great to read! I am going to print it out and mull over it for a while. I'll get back to you on that. Thanks for the support! It's great to know that others are walking my path. I hope to learn from you (all), and if anyone learns anything from what I have to add, I can only be grateful for that.

Peace be with you!

David

Thanks Stone.

Cheers,
David

Hi,

Can anyone explain false-awakenings and OOBE?

Regards,

David

[without context]

Dear Beth,

I am not your student, I am not defending a dissertation and yes, linguistic analysis without context is indulgence.

I would like to offer this translation of the mishna "Eyn Dorshin" (for analysis). This is the mishnah, in whose gemara the story of the four rabbis appears. The mishnah provides the context for the story. It will be found in tractate "Chagigah" of the Talmud, page 11b. [There is a good English/Hebrew edition available from www.artscroll.com]

"The [subject of] forbidden relations may not be expounded in the presence of three, nor the work of creation in the presence of two, nor [the work of] the chariot in the presence of one, unless he is a sage and understands of his own knowledge. Whoever speculates upon four things. Pity him! It is as though he had not come into the world. These are: what is above, what is beneath, what before, what after. And whoever takes no heed of the honour of his Maker, it would have been more merciful if he had not come to this world."

In the gemarah of this mishnah, we find the story of the four rabbis a few pages later (page 14b).

"Our rabbis taught: four men entered the "Garden", namely Ben Azzai and Ben Zoma, Acher and Rabbi Akiba. Rabbi Akiba said to them "When you arrive at the stones of pure marble, do not say "Water, Water! For it is written he that speaks falsehood shall not be established before my eyes Ben Azzai cast a look and died. Of him scripture says precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints Ben Zoma looked and went insane. Scripture says of him, Have you found honey? Eat as much as you need, lest you become filled with it and vomit Acher cut the shoots. Rabbi Akiba departed unhurt."

The gemarah then goes on to give examples of Ben Zoma's madness, discusses what happened to Acher ("The other", the nickname for Rabbi Elisha Ben Avuya, who became an apostate), and explains why Rabbi Akiba came back unhurt. Interestingly enough, Ben Azzai's case is not really touched upon. By the way the text in italics are quotes from, in order, from Psalms 101:7, Psalms 116:15 and Proverbs 25:16.

I offer these two quotes for discussion (brainstorming / linguistic analysis whatever), by you, me and anyone else who cares to join in.

Kind regards,

David

Hi Beth,

First, the reason I gave the linguistic analysis was that you said "humbling" was not a correct translation of laReDet! I was merely trying to show that I had not pulled the meaning of "humbling" out of thin air.

Second, I would think that the connection between humility and "bitul haYesh" (annihilation of the ego) is fairly obvious. I explained what I meant by bitul haYesh the first time I used it. It is a common term in Jewish mysticism, both modern and ancient.

Third, Jewish mystics have indulged in language-based mysticism yes, but this has been within the context of a given, accepted  philosophical structure. If you have read Abulafia's commentries on Maimonedes' "Guide for the Perplexed", you would see that even this most "wayward" of Jewish mystics did not indulge in hermeneutics just for the joy of indulging, letting his linguistic fantasy lead him where it will. Exegesis without an underlying philosophical structure is like a road without a map.

Fourth, I didn't even intend this thread to go into the discussion of how literally one can take symbols. As I have pointed out several times, what I am interested in is hearing if anyone has had experience with Merkavah symbolism. I have studied a lot yes, and it is because of this that I want some down to earth  experience. Either my own or someone else's. In that sense, thank you once again for sharing your experiential data with me.

Fifth, I did not mean to imply that you are secular. I have no idea what your background is. It was a general comment

Sixth, I don't agree that this is a world of iniquity (that's my Jewish background speaking again). That is a Gnostic idea (and perhaps a clue to where you are coming from?). In my view, good and evil co-exist in this world (and, from a Kabbalistic point of view, that is the reason this world was created). When God created the world, he said that it was good. I still believe that to be true.

Seventh, and last, if you are going to take every message of mine apart point by point (Virgo sun or ascendant?) I am going to lose interest I'm afraid. I enjoy a general exchange of ideas, in which all parties are allowed to brainstorm, but I don't like being forced onto the defensive/offensive at every twist and turn, and this discussion is going that way. Could we please return to the discussion of matters such as the meaning of LaReDet, which is germane to this thread?

To continue in the line of Whitt's questioning, what for example, might be the meaning of the water Rabbi Akiva refers to?

Kind regards,

David

No objections Stephen,

Regards,

David

[seems]

Peace Beth,

I am not working from a translation, I am reading the Hebrew (Israeli Hebrew is my mother tongue, but I was educated in a Yeshiva) and the word I am referring to is “tareed” which is the future tense of the infinitive “Laredet”. I’m sure you are aware that ‘yud’ is a so-called weak letter which drops away in some forms . This sentence (Genesis 27:40) has been interpreted in many ways. I will use a Rashi-derived translation here as my starting point:

By your sword you shall live, but your brother you shall serve; yet it shall be that when you will be aggrieved (tareed), you may remove his yoke from upon your neck.

Rashi bases his translation on a similar verse in Psalms, namely Psalms 55:3, “Areed b’seechee”. There is a cognate root Reysh-Vav-Dalet which also denotes complaint, and according to Ibn-Ezra this may have also have prompted Rashi to opt for this interpretation (at least according to the Tur). Commentators such as Rashbah and Sforno agree with Rashi’s interpretation of suffering. Ibn Ezra himself translates “tareed” as deriving from the root Reysh-Dalet-Vav, to rule (viz I Kings 5:4). Radak and Ralbag agree with him. In all these cases, the idea is that this verse implies that Esau will be able to remove the yoke when Israel sins.

In the traditional Jewish view, Esau (Esau) is the progenitor of Edom (Rome), the (Jewish) archetype of world domination through violence. This context is my context (I grew up in a religious Jewish family).  To sidetrack briefly, according to the Zohar, the channel of God’s “goodness” to this world is disrupted when man sins because this distorts the sefirot. By doing mitzvot(good deeds=cleaving to God) man corrects the blemishes (tikkun) which allow more of the goodness to reach this world. Genesis 27:40 can be thus read to mean that when man sins, violence prevails. Violence can be seen as belonging to our “animal” nature, cleaving to God as belonging to our spiritual nature. In this world, the intention is that both are equal partners in carrying out God’s will (for without the body, the spirit has no “tool” with which to act). However, the animal must submit to the spiritual.

With this as context, I would like to translate the word “tareed” as “humbled” with the idea that Esau’s strength of sword and his world-conquest are for the ultimate purpose of his final submission to Jacob in acknowledgment that the sword is the servant of the spirit. Esau’s greatest hope is “ca’asher tareed”, when you humble yourself to Jacob by submitting yourself to his ideals, then you will no longer be subservient to him.

By the way, this sentence can also be interpreted in a prophetic sense, referring to the reign of Jehoram when Edom revolted, throwing off the yoke that had been placed on them by King David.

I think that a purely linguistic approach to the biblical texts (and the Heichalot literature) can be very misleading (if not futile) if you don’t have a general context in which to orient your analysis. I do not believe the modern orthodox/Chassidic Jewish context is so far removed from the Heichalot mystics as to make attempts to interpret the texts through experience futile. An early Christian context, or Gnostic or even Hermetic context is also fine, as long as it's a context. I don't think a secular context counts though. Others may of course differ in their opinion. That’s OK   . It seems to me that you are too focused on the language per se (if I am wrong and you do have a context within which you are translating, please forgive me for thinking this). In addition to my regular work, I also do translations (from Dutch to English). Even with secular texts, which are very modern i.e. less far-removed in time, understanding the context is essential to translating accurately. It’s one of the reasons computers still cannot translate properly.

And as to not finding what I expect, who knows? I'm not even sure I know what I am expecting!

Peace,

David

Dear Beth,

Thank you for sharing your experiences trying to figure out what ‘descent into the Merkavah' means. I find your experience most interesting, however elusive. It is the sort of input I was looking for when I started this thread. I truly hope I too will be able to add something useful to this discussion one day.

While we are on the subject of linguistics (I am restricted to Hebrew and Aramaic I'm afraid), one of the meanings of the root yud-reysh-dalet is “humbling” (viz Genesis 27:40). Perhaps “laredet” in this sense means to annihilate the ego (“bitul haYesh”). The Ba’al Shem Tov was renowned for his “trips” to heaven and “bitul haYesh” forms a major part of the Chassidic mystical path. Perhaps the tradition is not so lost after all? Perhaps the world of the Merkavah Mystics is not so far away as we may think?

One last question, while out of the body, have you tried to experience any of the symbols described in the Heichalot literature?

Kind regards,

David

Welcome to the discussion Whitt,

I agree with you that the early Merkavah Mystics chose their language very carefully. Which is why, in view of the repeated (= shared = objective) experimentation, I feel justified in treating their symbology "literally"; at any rate, as literally as I would physical reality.

To add more question marks to your question: in his essay on Merkavah mysticism and gnosticism, Gershom G. Scholem notes that the earliest Merkavah mystics wrote of an "ascent" to the Merkavah, it was only around 500 AD that the terminology changed to "descent".  In the words of a favourite reggae artist of mine "wha 'appen?". I don't know. I feel these kinds of questions can only be answered through experience. It's like astral archaeology to retrace the steps of these mystics. Hopefully one day I'll be able to answer you. At present I have yet to even become conscious in my real-time body (I am on day 34 of MAP), although I have had a few near misses. One idea I have is that the descent refers to the descent into a trance, where (according to MAP) you keeping visualising/feeling yourself descending with some image or another.

Another interesting detail is the posture adopted by the Merkavah Mystics, bent over forwards with their head on their knees. Personally my stomach gets in the way, so I'll need someone younger and fitter to test that one out

Hi Beth,

I understand that "literal symbols" sounds like a contradiction in terms, but perhaps what I mean could better put as "taking symbols seriously". So in essence we are in agreement (I think). We cannot be conscious without symbols and, the way I look at things, we don't perceive anything else, either in this world or the next. The question is how to deal with them. To quote Daniel Matt in "The Essential Kabbalah",

The Kabbalists grew adept at walking the tightrope between blind fundamentalism and mystical anarchy, though a number of them lost their balance and fell into one extreme or the other

In his book "Homo Ludens", the Dutch historian Johan Huizinga speaks of a child playing a game which, while he is playing it, is as real as anything else. However, the child is nevertheless still aware somewhere in his mind that it is "just" a game.

In Jewish tradition, Merkavah mysticism is derived from Ezekial's vision of the Chariot. To quote Daniel Matt again,

An entire literature developed recounting the visionary exploits of those who followed in Ezekial's footsteps, among them some of the leading figures of rabbinic Judaism

While aware that what they saw was the mind's attempt to give form to the formless, there was, nevertheless, an acceptance of the vocabulary of symbols they were experiencing. And that is the religious context.

My original question in starting this thread was intended to find out if anyone still alive has followed their footsteps and how they interpreted their experiences, in a modern context.

It may turn out that I am the first one to do this (which I find hard to believe). Thank you for wishing me well on my journey!

Shalom alayich,

David

Deep Bows back!

Peace Beth,

M=preposition "of" or "from"
Rah=verb "to see" "to envision" or as a noun "vision"
Kuh=verb "to burn" or the noun "burning" or "fiery"
Bah=verb "to enter"

I like that.

First, I think the ancients were writing with heavy metaphorical language and it is dangerous (or just a waste of time) to think of them in a literal sense.

One of the reasons I became interested in astral projection was to ground all the things you can read (and you'll admit there is a lot) in terms of experience, in order to gain a measure of intellectual security (a psychological need). To the extent that consciousness is an individual affair, I agree that what you experience is highly individualised. However, I am not so sure of the extent to which consciousness is individualised. It may be possible to tune into some shared mental structure which allows you to "download" the absolute meaning of a symbol (and good old religious me does believe that absolute meaning exists). Granted, your own mind will try to turn that into what it will. But who knows, maybe the override will be sufficient to change your concepts in a flash. Another possibility is that the downloaded kernel in your unconscious will transform your conceptualisation in a gradual way. I'm not convinced that a literal approach is necessarily dangerous or useless. A universal symbol would have to be taken literally. And the greater the extent to which it reflects a universal truth, the more literally you would have to take it.

For example:
Did the giving of the Torah at Sinai actually occur on the physical plane? What was the absolute meaning hidden within the shell (klippah) of this symbol? A lot has been written on this Kabbalistically, but which of the various interpretations approaches the truth? Imagine I do experience Sinai in a literal sense while travelling in the astral (or elsewhere). Maybe it's a "mindblowing" experience which radically changes my life, and, much to my wife and children's distress I start walking around in a toga, my beard turns snowy white, and, wielding a large walking stick (a la Cecille B. de Mille), I call the Children of Israel to repent for the end is nigh. Alternatively, I wake up the next morning with a strong intuitive "gut" feeling of what the significance of the symbol of Sinai is. This feeling grows in me and, nine months later, I give birth to a beautiful baby idea. To everyone else my idea is relative (forgive the pun   ), but to me I now "know" what the truth is, it is absolute. Where I'm speculating is my assumption that the symbol of Sinai does contain a lot of absolute truth in it. It may well be that I come back with the feeling of it all having been a fraud. But then I will at least "know" that for sure.

And maybe at the end of all my "knowings", gradually transforming my consciousness, I reach the ultimate "knowing" (the world of the Throne). My point is that I think these literal symbols have value.[/i]

Hi J.K.

My background is in the Jewish Kabbalah, so I can inform you from that perspective. I don't like getting into the debate of who was first and who appropriated what from whom; the debate tends to get pretty acrimonious. Suffice it to say that there is always room for personal insight, but from the Jewish perspective one remains within the constraints of received Jewish tradition and Jewish religious law. As the Talmudic saying goes, "eat the meat before you drink the wine".

The 32 paths of wisdom derive from the first chapter of the "Sefer Yetsirah" (Book of Formation), which begins with the statement (I'm paraphrasing here) that God created the universe with "32 mystical paths of wisdom". Later on in the book, it is made clear that these 32 paths refer to the 10 sefirot and the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. However, the 32 paths are also defined in "Pardes Rimonim" (Orchard of Pomegranates), a classic work in Kabbalah written by Rabbi Moshe Cordovero, as 32 states of consciousness. By contemplating the various names of God (22 letters), one achieves the various levels of consciousness. The underlying structures (for want of a better word) one is aware of while in these states of consciousness are formed by the sefirot (those attributes of God we can become conscious of). The sefirot are often portrayed as a tree, referred to as the "tree of life". In a certain sense one could say that you climb the tree by means of the letters.

The letter gimel relates to "kindness and nourishment". In particular the outflowing of God's kindness and nourishment. The polarities of man and woman (the letter bet, or 2) are resolved in the child (the gimel, 3), who is raised through kindness (the natural feeling associated with caring for children) and nourishment (the natural act associated associated with the same activity. Maharal (a rabbi in the Middle Ages) explains that the Oneness of aleph denotes ultimate perfection that exists only with God and the duality of bet implies diversity and heterogeneity, multiplicity and incompatibility. The gimel signifies the capacity to neutralise the dissimilarity of two contrasting forces and unite them into a lasting and more wholesome unit.

Hope this helps,

David

Hi J.K.

From what perspective are you approaching the 32 paths of wisdom, Christian/Hermetic Qabbala or Jewish Kabbalah?

Regards,

David

Peace Beth,

Thanks for your reply. You wrote

There is however, another meaning for "merkabah" – and that is "from entering the fiery vision."

. What is your source for this interpretation?

I have been reading a book by Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok (founder of Yeshivat Bnei Nevi'im) called "Sefer LeHagid HaEmet", in which he discusses the descent of the four rabbis into the Merkabah. He explains Akiva's warning as one not to mistake visions for reality. Aher became a dualist because he saw Metraton standing next to the Holy One and assumed there were two. Ben Zoma couldn't integrate his experience with his physical consciousness and went mad, and Ben Azzai simply left his body for good. He explains that the four Rabbis were actually making an attempt to get the Messiah to come in view of the Roman oppression. The attempt was a failure. Akiva came back hale and hearty (thinking he had succeeded) and the "mistook" Bar Kochba for the messiah. In the end he suffered for his presumption as well.

I must admit, taking due heed of all the warnings, I would dearly love to hear the Bat Kol and to see the halls of marble. Another plan is to travel back to Sinai to experience the giving of the Torah. And does the Angel Metatron really exist? I wonder though to what extent you can "conjure" up such experiences. Your unconscious is highly influenced by your cultural milieu. I have also learned that my unconscious has its own agenda and I usually end up having the experiences I was meant to have instead of the ones I consciously wanted.

Anyway, to the extent I make progress in this direction I shall, in due course, submit my findings. I was merely interested if anyone else had tried this path out.

Kind regards,

David

It's pretty dramatic isn't it? The combustion could be seen as transformation and purification (burning away the dross). Nothing I've read in the published experiences of modern OOBE'ers describes this. Have you been through something similar?

Hi y'all,

One of my reasons for being very interested in astral projection is that early post-biblical Jewish mysticism has a number of "mysterious" descriptions of ascents to heaven. I have developed a few theories of what this all entails (one of which involves the effect one's culture and upbringing has on the type of experiences one has while out of body), and want very much to test this out for myself instead of being restricted to the realms of theory. So apart from my own nascent efforts to project astrally, I was wondering if anyone had already tried these out, or is interested in trying to follow the route traced out in the Heichalot texts.

In the Zohar, the Heichalot, "Chambers", are described as the seven chambers of light perceived by the mystic during prayer, or by a righteous person as his soul passes away from this world and ascends on high (Zohar I, 38a-45b and Zohar II, 244b-268b).


Here is an example of an early (i.e. approx 1000 years before the Zohar was published) Heichalot text.

Rabbi Ishmael said: How beloved is Israel before the Holy, Blessed One! Even more than the ministering angels! For [when] the angels want to recite songs first, before making, for instance, mountains of fire or hills of flame, the Holy, Blessed One says to them, 'Be silent, until I have listened to the songs and praises, prayers and pleasant melodies of Israel' as it is written, 'When the morning stars sang together' (Job 38:7)--this [refers to Israel--'and all the sons of God shouted for joy' (Job 38:7)--this refers to the ministering angels. When all the ministering angels and all the angels of the firmament hear the sound of the songs and praises that Israel sings below, they immediately open [their mouths and] in a loud voice say 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory' (Isaiah 6:3).

When the time arrives for the angels to sing [a song] and melody, the angel Shmu''el, the great, honoured and awesome prince stands at the windows of the lower firmament to listen intently to the sound of the songs, praises and melodies that arise from the synagogues and study houses, and lets the children of the firmament and the holy creatures listen. And when he has heard and has let every firmament hear, immediately countless classes of camps and armies of angels descend into the midst of the rivers of fire and the rivers of flame, and immerse themselves seven times, and examine themselves in the fire three hundred and sixty five times, in accordance [with the fact that] they are appointed to [do] worldly work and descend each day to bring peace to the world. And when the time of song arrives, they ascend to the firmament and purify themselves in the fire. But do angels require immersion? [Certainly not! But] because of the smell of those born of woman, who are masters of uncleanness and fluxes, they therefore immerse themselves in fire. Then they go like the angels of the seventh heaven (?).

After this they call to each other and talk to each other, and ascend from the rivers of fire with each others permission, and make themselves like light and like the most radiant lightning. Then they ascend by a ladder of fire, until they reach the armies of the seventh heaven, the pure chashmal(?), the holy creatures, the wheels of the chariot, the high and exalted throne of glory. Immediately they stand in awe and reverence, in fear and humility, and cover their faces with their wings in order not to look upon the form of God sitting on the chariot. Then they stand in classes of thousands upon thousands, many myriads, and hosts of hosts beyond number before the throne of the glory. And at that moment, the Holy Blessed One sits on the throne of glory filling the whole world, as it says, The whole world is full of His glory (Isaiah 6:3). Even the holy creatures prepare and sanctify themselves, with each one of the million crowns of [different] types of light on their heads, dressed in garments of light, and with their faces wrapped in lightning, while the Holy Blessed One [turns] His face from the holy creatures.

Then the 'wheels' of beauty, the cherubim of glory, and the holy creatures, sanctify, purify, clothe and wrap themselves more because the chariot is in front of them, the throne of glory is above their heads, and the Shechinah is high above them, and the rivers of fire are passing between them. Therefore they prepare, brighten and purify themselves with light seventy times, and then all of them stand in purity and holiness and recite songs, praises, melodies, exaltations, adulations, acclamations, and paeans, with [one] voice, one speech, one knowledge, and one melody.

And not only this, but some of these million myriads of ministering angels also fall into the burning rivers of fire, and are burnt up. Why? Because anyone who precedes or follows in song is immediately burnt, while even the holy creatures contain neither 'before' nor 'after' since their standing, 'planting', and shining are all done in unison. They direct the four legs of the throne, each leg corresponding to another, each wheel corresponding to another, each creature corresponding to another, each cherub corresponding to another, and each melody corresponding to another. Then they open their mouths in song, in holiness and purity, with a 'still small voice' [I Kings 19:12], as it is said, 'and after the earthquake...a still small voice', and they raise the chariot with the sound of songs and praises.

At that moment, holy beings sanctify themselves, pure beings offer praise, angelic beings exult, wheels laud, creatures and angels sing and divide into three classes of millions and myriads, and say, Holy, holy, holy. One class says 'Holy' and falls on its face; [then another class says 'Holy, holy' and falls on its face;] and then another class says 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts'. The holy creatures from under the throne respond and say 'Blessed is the glory of the Lord from its place' (Ezekiel 3:12) because the Shechinah is in every place. In the future, the Shechinah will return to its place, to the house of the Holy of Holies, and will say, 'Blessed is the glory of the Lord from its place'....

from Seder Rabbah

Shalom Beth,

Have you tried out the Merkavah techniques with astral projection? I know the techniques are scantily described in the Heichalot literature (especially the bit about descending into the Chariot), the journeys themselves are pretty graphic. I have yet to achieve a "real" astral projection, and would like to use the images described. So if you have had any relevant experiences I'd love to hear about them. I am very also very interested in how acculturation affects the OOBE one has.

Hi,

I'm busy researching the subject of Astral Projection and Judaism. Normative Judaism is a very practice-oriented religion, with the philosophical/magical element being provided by the Kabbalah. Early Kabbalistic texts focus on the "Merkavah" (=chariot or vehicle), which one descends into in order to ascend to various heavenly levels. In the Talmud, there is a cryptic passage describing the ascent/descent of four Rabbis to "paradise"; only one of the four returned unscathed. One of the reasons I am interested in Astral Projection is that I want to test out the methods given in the various "manuals", including the Sefer Yetsirah. Has anyone had any experience with these methods?

I enjoyed your intro. Short and sweet.

Hi everyone, I'm from the Netherlands. After about two years of doing NEW and being really impressed by the results, I decided to take the plunge and buy MAP, of which I am now into my eighth day. I already had one experience (I went to sleep reciting the affirmations and then woke up aware that I was floating slightly above my physical body -- everything was black -- I sensed I was in my energetic body; I thought about projecting my consciousness into my real-time body when suddenly I was catapulted forward at great speed. Everything was still black, and I was briefly aware I had left my physical body far behind me, then I was back in the physical. Later that night I had a dream that I was flying a plane when I ran out of fuel and had to crash land) so I'm off to a good start. I have four young kids and a full time job so I think for me the biggest challenge will be creating a time-space continuum in which I won't be disturbed! See you in the astral!